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Tuesday, May 08, 2012

Comments

Gee, Charlie is not very good when it comes to strategy? This is new?

The Phillies won in spite of Charlie's baseball ignorance in the past because of a weak division and a wealth of talent up and down the lineup.

This isn't 2009. We no longer have the threat of 30+ HR from multiple bats in the lineup. We no longer have a wealth of prospects to land a difference maker at the trade deadline. We no longer have the spendable cash to even maintain our existing lineup beyond 2012, let alone to plug the holes in our sinking ship.

The one thing that can be done is to replace a man who is content to ignore the game on the field in his decision making.

I don't want to see him fired because he's Charlie. Let's face it, he's a likeable guy, he was the skipper of the '08 WFC and he's the all time leader in Phillies wins, but at the end of the day, he's just a likeable guy who found himself in the right place at the right time with two ballclubs. He does not have what it takes to manage a major league ballclub, and it's questionable if he ever did in the first place, no matter how well liked he is in the locker room.

The thing is: even if you fire UC, you still have the same roster to deal with. I don't know who could win with the dreck. RAJ did a horrendous job putting this team together.

6 wins cholly cost us. It's real simple here. He can't manage as games develops. In 08 he had jimmy and lopes as his go to guys. I guarantee you that if sandberg was leading this team those losses would be forgotten and we would say wow this guy is good. Sure cholly is a good guy etc. At end of day wins is what counts and he ain't got it no more. 5/8/2012 time to bring in ryno. Get chase Howard and bring up brown. Kick start this club. New energy needed.

Ryne Sandberg = the backup quarterback. Imbued with all qualities the guy running the show lacks. If only they'd bench Manuel, this team would win. Right?

Manuel's been goddawful. Charlie and the Bunt should be a cautionary tale for any aspiring manager. Still, he's got alot of guys playing roles to which they're ill-suited, playing poorly and failing in big spots. He's destined to fail at this job. This includes Jimmy Rollins and his bi-monthly extra base hits, Shane Victorino hitting nothing against right handed pitching, John Mayberry trying to hit anything, half his bench starting every game, his stopper blowing leads in consecutive games, and his closer getting worked over by the worst lineup in the division.

The point is cholly can't manage on fly. Anyone can see that. Ryno would bring new energy to club. Fresh ideas and maybe get these guys to actually play. Maybe ryno uses pap in other situations. Maybe be bust a few guys to get them to play. This team can't just put uni on and win. I have watched all games. Cholly has cost us 5-6 wins. That point can't be argued.

Tony LaRussa may be available.

The majority of posters on here went on and on this spring about how many games the Phils would have to win 1-0, 2-0, 2-1 early this year to stay afloat until the big piece(s) were healthy. Heck, the opening day recap was pretty much tailored to that notion. Well, guess what? Last night was the textbook example of said game. The storyline all day yesterday (aside from the ridiculous Hamels/Harper/Rizzo saga) was whether Doc & bullpen could rebound and provide the much needed shutdown to kick off the homestand. That didn't happen.

All i can think of is mr burns pulling daryl strawberry for homer... "its called playing the percentages!"

Have they fired UC yet?

If not, why?

Actually, the hook, claiming the manager has cost the team 5-6 wins is in fact the point that can't be argued.

You can question his moves all you want. Claiming they cost the team the game as fact is quite a stretch.

Who knows how many games are a direct results of his managing? He's been bad fo sure, and it's been magnified. But majority of the team has been bad, and they've lost 16. I wouldn't say 1/3 of them are squarely on Charlie.

It's all Cole Hamel's fault.

Charlie Manuel is good at providing the steady as she goes, even keel, protected clubhouse, let 'em work through their slump environment that worked when you had an everyday 8 that could and did produce and defined bullpen roles (JC in the 7th, Madson in the 8th, Lidge in the 9th). I think he has trouble with a team that has to play the matchups as evidenced in a larger sample size by the amount of playing time that Raul Ibanez got last year over Mayberry in the 2nd half and playoffs.

There's definitely a time and place for Manuel's style, but right now the Phils need to be playing the matchups. We all knew what Manuel provided and it's still valuable. I blame the bench coach, Pete Mackanin, shouldn't he be the guy whispering in Charlie's ear during the game? Either Mackanin isn't doing that, or Charlie doesn't trust him, or maybe he's backing up some of these bad decisions. Shouldn't Billmeyer, Dubee, and Gross be working with Charlie pre-game on planning for various situations? Charlie is ultimately responsible for his staff, but they are at least partly to blame here as well.

Agree with most of the sentiments above, but I think we're going a little easy on Pap. You're a relief pitcher--sometimes you're gonna go a few games without getting any work. That means "rust" is not an excuse.

It really is amazing how more often than not Charlie's logic defying moves still somehow end with him coming up roses. Last night he had Mayberry hitting 2nd and what does he do? He hits a sac fly to drive in a run in the 1st. I'm laughing to myself thinking Charlie did it again. Boy was I wrong. Fast forward to later on in the game when Charlie puts the bunt on for 1 pitch. 1! A taken ball. He then proceeds to let Mayberry swing away and give us yet another wasted at bat in which the runners stay put.

This team has far too many physical and pure talent disabilities this year. When you add Manuel's complete ineptness to the equation you have what this team is...mediocre. Honestly I still don't even know how they have won 14 games to this point. When watching this team and going by solely what my eyes are seeing this team is no better than a 9 or 10 win team.

According to Cots he's only signed through 2013. I'm sure the Phillies won't can him after this season but it'll be interesting to see if they give him an extension or let him twist. I really can't see them eating $2.4 million worth of an ex-managers salary.

The point is cholly can't manage on fly.
Posted by: The hook

Sounds pretty familiar to the team that plays across the street huh? Charlie likes things to just go the way he envisions them. Doc for 8, Papelbon for 1, game over. When that doesn't happen his world is definitely turned upside down. Imagine the level of hate Charlie would feel if he didn't have 2008 in his back pocket? I still think back to how they were probably lucky to get Tampa Bay in that series and not a more battletested team like Boston.

According to Cots he's only signed through 2013. I'm sure the Phillies won't can him after this season but it'll be interesting to see if they give him an extension or let him twist. I really can't see them eating $2.4 million worth of an ex-managers salary.

Posted by: Paul

Their stance on eating salaries has changed in recent years though. I could easily see them doing it.

Cholly's not the guy who put this roster together. His lineups used to be amusing because of the way he constructed them; now they are laughable because of the names of the players. If you think Cholly is bad now, wait til Hamels and Vic bail out.

Cholly's not the guy who put this roster together. His lineups used to be amusing because of the way he constructed them; now they are laughable because of the names of the players. If you think Cholly is bad now, wait til Hamels and Vic bail out.

Posted by: curt

He gets a pass to a certain extent because of the roster but the gaffes like last night can't happen even if he is playing with 9 of us from this blog. They are basic instinctual moves. He failed miserably last night.

Hugh: you cant say his closer getting worked over by the worst lineup in the division unless it's they played an intrasquad game.

Fire the hitting coach!!!

I'm telling you guys....I marvel at the way they leave runners on. You literally have to TRY to be that bad. It's like home plate is this elaborate boobytrap that is going to turn into a black hole if they have someone cross it.

And on that note what was with Wigginton's slide? Pretty good instincts there. Let's slide to the front part of the plate and give the guy a nice large portion of my body to tag. How about you slide to the back half and make him have to turn more to apply the tag and just try to sneak your hand in as you slide past. Nah.

This team is looking more and more like a collection of over-the-hill all stars and underperforming up-and-comers.

Galvis is so incredibly bad at the plate too. I get that the kid hasn't even been able to get ABs at AAA but wow. I love that Charlie left him in. So great. I'd take any matchup over Galvis v. anyone. Literally any matchup. Give me a no-armed man and I have a feeling he'd put together a better AB in that spot.

I love watching Galvis in the field. he's an absolute whiz. But this team can't afford to have an automatic out in the lineup every single night.

How cute was it of Pence to think he'd actually see a first pitch fastball in the 7th with them loaded too? He's smart as a whip.

Sports Illustrated says Hamels pitch at Harper and admission of guilt was really aimed at his teammates to try to light a fire under them.
I hadn't thought of it that way but its the only way the whole thing makes sense.
Not sure if it will work with this gang though. They have to want it-- and so far it doesn't look like they do. If they can keep Sandberg maybe he will manage between the two extremes of Bowa and Manuel both styles ran their course. People have stopped showing up to a small degree, get ready for more blue seats and the sell out string to end next year if the bad baseball keeps up.

Sports Illustrated says Hamels pitch at Harper and admission of guilt was really aimed at his teammates to try to light a fire under them.

Posted by: Ted

I said this multiple times yesterday. This was the other side behind Cole's motive. I don't think it will hit home with this bunch either. I respect the effort though.

This is rather amusing.

So for days everyone whined that losses were "on Charlie" because he didn't use Paps and the pitchers he used instead gave up runs.

Charlie was an idiot for leaving Hamels in the game.

Last night, Charlie used Paps, who gave up runs, and the loss is "on Charlie" for yet other reasons.

I'm not defending any of Charlie's moves per se. I certainly don't agree with all his decisions. What's funny, though, is how BLers ignore reality and earnestly believe that the moves they don't agree with could only have negative outcomes, ignore when the moves they don't agree with have positive outcomes, and then earnestly believe that the moves they advocate for could only have positive outcomes.

Charlie's not going anywhere. All this bellyaching will only make you more miserable than you already are. When you get appointed as the manager for an MLB team, then you'll be able to manage as you see fit.

This team will win when the players perform well. They'll lose when they don't. The team lost last night because a rookie got his bat on a pretty good pitch and somehow got it out of the park. They lost because they didn't hit with runners in scoring position.

But if it makes you feel better to conclude that the loss is "on Charlie," have at it.

The Fire Charlie crowd is only slightly less stupid then the Ryne Sandberg Will Save Us crowd.

Will Middlebrooks is hitting the cover off the ball for the Red Sox. Already has more homeruns and just as many rbi's as Youk in 1/3 the at bats. I think the league will adjust to Middlebrooks free swinging ways, but Youkilis is looking awfully available at the moment. however with his bad back, I'm not sure he can really play 3rd anymore, and Wigginton has out produced him this year. All that prologue is to bring me to the point that, it must be nice to have players in your minors who can come up and produce.

Can someone please explain to me why Ryne Sandberg - who has never managed at the major league level - is the answer?

Charlie lets Galvis hit.
Phils lose.
Sellout streak ends.
Teams falls out of contention.
Avg 17,000 fans a night.
Vet Stadium cats reclaim CBP.
Citizens Bank pulls sponsorship.
Stadium renamed Veterans Stadium.
Team can't afford stadium upkeep.
Stadium crumbles as fans relive 90s baseball.
Braves win 14 straight divisions.
Jack is proven correct about Braves.
NO!!!!

Phlipper- Papelbon blew the game last night. It was his responsibility to hold the lead and he failed. And people might say differently, but even if the Phils had the lead, the same thing probably would have happened.

But Manuel could not have botched the 8th inning any more if he tried. He bunted Ruiz and Polanco to get to Galvis and Kratz. How can you possibly justify that? He managed us out of a run, basically.

Philipper...I hear you but doesn't Charlie have some accountability? You make it seem like he is free of sin. I said he gets a pass to a certain extent because of this roster and the lack of organizational depth but c'mon..those moves last night were that of high school level quality.

Sandberg has had great success at both AAA affiliates he has managed and is by all accounts a very good up and coming manager.

Also, he cant possibly be as stupid as UC.

"Beer Leaguers grow weary of Manuels gut instincts"

And THAT is some gut Charlie has on him.
(Yes I went there).

Agree wiht Iceman. Charlie botched the 8th. The buntiing wasn't bad it's that at the end he let Galvis and Kratz hit. I imagine the plan was to bunt Ruiz for Polanco but when Ruiz got on bunting Polanco was an OK move. Truthfully, I was fine with it as Polanco is a DP machine and Nix was still available. So bunt and then send up Nix regardless of L/R splits. Just do it because all you need is a flyball. Galvis is an abvious K or groundout waiting to happen. Sure it's a bad matchup for Nix but all you need is a ground ball not right at someone. Even Pete Orr was a better option than Galvis.

Here's the thing...you can use Galvis late in games for his glove but if it is a key situation that you want him to hit in then you need some sort of mental evaluation.

Can't get on him about Papelboner or hitting Mayberry 2nd. Hitting a guy second is a normal enough thing to do for a game to get a guy hitting. Can't say that it always works but the thinkig is: move a guy up in the order and get him some fastballs.

I’m thinking that soon, instead of watching games being irritated and afterward feeling frustrated, my survival mode will become one of settling back and enjoying small moments of brilliance….Freddy’s’ fielding, Cole’s strikeouts, Chooch’s humble communication with the pitchers and clutch hits, Doc’s ace-dom (may it continue to endure.) Soon I may need to resign myself to the team and managing that we have, and either savor the small pleasures of the ride—as we did for many non-championship years-- or continue to annoyed each day.

(But this is where the issue becomes payroll. A summer evening watching the game for the simple fun of the game becomes much more tolerable when your team isn’t expected to do too much to begin with.)

Can someone please explain to me why Ryne Sandberg - who has never managed at the major league level - is the answer?

Posted by: Steve

Is it a prerequisite that you have a long resume of major league winning experience to be a major league manager? I didn't know that. I'm not saying Sandberg is the answer but who knows. I'm certainly not going to discredit him because he hasn't done it before. Ever heard of Joe Maddon?

Galvis' glove is nice but he's playing second base. He'll never stop a crucial double or cut down a run at the plate. has anyone ever seen a defensive replacement late in the game at 2nd? Get a bat in there.

Joe D - I've heard of Joe Maddon! He's the same guy Charlie was really lucky to face in the World Series, right?

I’m thinking that soon, instead of watching games being irritated and afterward feeling frustrated, my survival mode will become one of settling back and enjoying small moments of brilliance….Freddy’s’ fielding, Cole’s strikeouts, Chooch’s humble communication with the pitchers and clutch hits, Doc’s ace-dom (may it continue to endure.) Soon I may need to resign myself to the team and managing that we have, and either savor the small pleasures of the ride—as we did for many non-championship years-- or continue to annoyed each day.

(But this is where the issue becomes payroll. A summer evening watching the game for the simple fun of the game becomes much more tolerable when your team isn’t expected to do too much to begin with.)

Posted by: can_of_corn

I get you on this approach. I do it to a certain extent and really did it in 2007. They obviously had Howard but the main sticking point for me was watching Utley play the game every night. When he got hit by Lannan I was distraught.

Your approach is a good one. Find the silver linings where you can. And honestly it should be a little easier for us as fans since the championship draught was snapped but honestly the 2008 championship has made many of us take on this bloodthirst for another. While I literally want to gauge my eyeballs out with a spoon when Galvis comes to the plate I really love watching the kid in the field. His instincts are incredible.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, SIXERS!

Joe D - I've heard of Joe Maddon! He's the same guy Charlie was really lucky to face in the World Series, right?

Posted by: quincy.mcneal

Funny.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, SIXERS!

Posted by: gobaystars!

Ha! I'm a Sixers fan. Just hoping they can close this Bulls series out and try to breathe a little life back into the basketball part of this city with a good series against Boston.

Has Rollins commented on Valdespin's homerun yet? I know as a Mets fan, all we care about is making sure to appease Rollins. We really care what he thinks about how the Mets celebrate their wins. He is the ultimate authority on that stuff. So, just wondering whether Rollins has endorsed the way Valdespin ran the bases. I know he did a fist pump rounding first. I really hope that's ok with Jimmy, because if it's not ok, well then there will be huge problems.

Has Rollins commented on Valdespin's homerun yet? I know as a Mets fan, all we care about is making sure to appease Rollins. We really care what he thinks about how the Mets celebrate their wins. He is the ultimate authority on that stuff. So, just wondering whether Rollins has endorsed the way Valdespin ran the bases. I know he did a fist pump rounding first. I really hope that's ok with Jimmy, because if it's not ok, well then there will be huge problems.

Posted by: LetsGoMets

Man, you still mad? I'd hate to have your life.

"How can you possibly justify that? "

The justification is obvious. He thought there was a reasonably good chance of getting a sac fly or a run-scoring ground ball. Are you upset that he bunted Polly, the absolute punching bag at BLer for weeks, where RAJ was a moron for not replacing him and Charlie was an idiot for keeping him in the lineup? It looks to me like Galvis has been getting more solid contact lately (he did have a run-scoring hit the other night). And you're ignoring how BLer punching bag Pierre has been getting on base in key situations (but Charlie's an idiot for playing him and RAJ is a moron for signing him).

Notice how when Pierre screws up Charlie is a moron but there is no notice when Pierre makes key contributions that could lead to wins?

It's easy to ignore any potential for good outcomes from Charlie's moves, focus only on potential negative outcomes, and pretend that your preferred options would only have positive outcomes, and then say that the loss is "on Charlie." It's called confirmation bias. Someone's convinced that Charlie is a moron and so he can interpret any outcomes to confirm that conclusion.

Again - I'm not saying I agree with all of Charlie's moves - but do you seriously think that if Polly had hit into a double-play and then Galvis gotten a hit but no runs scored, people wouldn't have ignored those events to nonetheless confirm their conclusions?

The point I'm making is that the marginal difference between one decision and another in baseball is usually tiny in reality. Over the long haul, sure, a manager could systematically make the "wrong" decisions and you might be able to conclude his decisions have an actual negative impact on the W/L record - but to conclude that about Charlie you'd have to come up with some kind of theory to explain his track record of having the best results of any manager in the history of the franchise.

Yeah. Ending this Bulls series tonight would be big. The Celtics are really the only second round matchup they could win. If they do, they've some how made the EC Finals! Amazing.
Baseketball fandom is always this sleeping giant in Phila. Fans are out there.

Yeah. Ending this Bulls series tonight would be big. The Celtics are really the only second round matchup they could win. If they do, they've some how made the EC Finals! Amazing.
Baseketball fandom is always this sleeping giant in Phila. Fans are out there.

Posted by: gobaystars!

And they'd get waxed by Miami but whatever, just getting there could generate the buzz. I know the fans are out there. I still think 2001 was one of the craziest years I've ever seen with the city taking to a team.

Last night, Charlie used Paps, who gave up runs, and the loss is "on Charlie" for yet other reasons.


Posted by: Phlipper (Switching over to the Walt Whitman for the Flyers game.) | Tuesday, May 08, 2012 at 09:17 AM

Phlipper, Charlie is being criticized for letting the guy go 6 days without throwing a single inning. Here's a manager who does the stupidest things (Galvis and Kratz), yet he refuses to budge from the "accepted wisdom" of never using your closer on the road in a non-save. At some point, you have to say the hell to convention and get the guy some work. We've got 11 million in payroll not making a single contribution for a week. Terrific. That is part of the reason why I found the Papelbon contract so disturbing. I understand why a good closer is needed with a good staff. But when you have 35 million in payroll, also known as the top 2 producers in your lineup not making any contributions and not having a serious timetable as to when they might make contributions, you would think that it makes more sense to use that 11 million dollars for Papelbon to make sure that you can compete from an offensive perspective.

To say it differently, Papelbon did not pitch for a week, because the depleted lineup (Howard and Utley and 35 million in payroll) couldn't get them a lead, partly because the guy who can't into the game is making 11 million. Am I the only person that sees the inherent stupidity in this?

" The buntiing wasn't bad it's that at the end he let Galvis and Kratz hit. I imagine the plan was to bunt Ruiz for Polanco but when Ruiz got on bunting Polanco was an OK move. Truthfully, I was fine with it as Polanco is a DP machine and Nix was still available. So bunt and then send up Nix regardless of L/R splits."

I think that's a good point. You present well the alternative rational for Charlie's moves that everyone uses to prove that he's a "moron."

And what you're saying means the difference boils down to needing Galvis to produce against an LHP compared to Nix producing in a situation where he has a terrible track record. I'd probably rather see Nix there - but does choosing Galvis over Nix against a LHP really mean that the loss is "on Charlie?"

Am I the only person that sees the inherent stupidity in this?

Posted by: JRide

Nah you aren't the only one. But I was also advocating having Bastardo close this year and if he failed finding someone at the deadline. So yeah I had a nice swing and a miss there. I don't believe in overpaying for a closer. I don't believe in the closer role in general though.

Miami will destroy them. It's a much much better team that is also an awful matchup.

01 was probalby the most fun playoff run I've seen from any team in the city. People loved them.

Joe D - just wondering man, geez.

No need to get so... mad.

"Phlipper, Charlie is being criticized for letting the guy go 6 days without throwing a single inning."

I would have used Paps in some of those earlier occasions - but concluding that Paps gave up that homer to the rookie because he hadn't been used seems ludicrous to me.

Paps didn't get the job done. It happens. That's baseball. Reverse engineering what happened to conclude that it was Charlie's fault seems to ignore the basic reality that baseball is a game that's affected by fairly random events. Paps would give up that homer, probably, in something 1 out of 100 ABs against that rookie.

Joe D - just wondering man, geez.

No need to get so... mad.

Posted by: LetsGoMets

Ok troll. Enjoy this success now and check your desk calendar. It's still May.

OK here's the mode I'm in.

I'll forgive this entire season of crap if they fire Charlie and extend Cole. Looks like we're back to cheering for a .500 or better season.

Classy work telling Jayson Werth he deserved to have his wrist broken guys. I don't know why everyone has such a negative view of Philly fans.

Once Berkman comes back for the Cards, the Cards will have to resort to using Allen Craig as a super sub -- which he's way too good for, really. He started out as a 3B, played the OF regularly, got placed at 2B for a few games by La Russa, and is now filling in at 1B until Berkman gets back.

He'd be a great player to start in LF for the Phillies. But it would probably cost the Phils quite a bit.

Youk is another interesting option...

But who knows if these guys are really available.

Given the long-term injury histories of both Beltran and Berkman, Allen Craig isn't going anywhere.

Yeah they won't move Craig and while I was open to Youk a few weeks ago I no longer am. It would just be more of the same.

LetsGoMets: Didn't realize the 2 fans that yelled that to him down in DC spoke for the entire fan base. I'll keep that in mind the next time 1 Mets fan does something.

Paps didn't get the job done. It happens. That's baseball. Reverse engineering what happened to conclude that it was Charlie's fault seems to ignore the basic reality that baseball is a game that's affected by fairly random events. Paps would give up that homer, probably, in something 1 out of 100 ABs against that rookie.

Posted by: Phlipper (Switching over to the Walt Whitman for the Flyers game.) | Tuesday, May 08, 2012 at 09:59 AM

I agree with you completely. I'm not saying that the two events are tied together. I'm still annoyed for two reasons

1. Ludicrously big relief pitcher contract to ride the pine for a week

2. Ludicrously big relief pitcher contract and the guy can only pitch effectively in non-save situations?

ok 3

3. Ludicrously big relief pitcher contract and the guy gets blasted by Jordanyeye Vandalay

and maybe a 4th

4. And all of this to tie up that much payroll when the more pressing need was HOW TO ACTUALLY GET A LEAD

Let's go Mets -

I'm pretty sure that your team is not

a. even in first place in the division

and

b. even if you were, i'm pretty sure your gutless team would need a 35 game lead in september not to blow it.

Why don't use start a ponzi scheme with all of this free time. Maybe you can get your ownership to pitch in.

14-16 and fire Cholly? C'mon. Some of his moves were puzzling & frustrating to watch last night in the 8th. Maybe he even played a decisive part in them losing them 2-3 games. Absolutely no grounds to fire him right now.

People want him to play 'small ball' and that is exactly what he has been doing. Surprised you still hear dopey commentators saying he isn't. Either they don't watch the games or they are just trying to create a cliched talking point even if it has little grounding in reality.

Cholly's been bunting and especially more hit & runs than I can ever remember him doing over a prolonged stretch since he became the manager. There's some things he won't do (suicide squeeze) but I understand that since it is a really tough play to execute with mixed odds at best on scoring a run.

As for the approach at the plate, insisting that a veteran hitter who has been in the league for several years or more suddenly become a patient hitter who works counts consistently is bordering on ludicrous.

Maybe in certain spots with certain hitters you don't give them a green light where you did in year's past. That's one thing. Griping that a guy like Pence or Vic or Polanco though doesn't suddenly turn into an OBP machine this year makes little sense or blaming Cholly for this.

I find Cholly maddening to watch at times especially handling a pitching staff. Take the good with the bad with Cholly.

We Charlie Bashers have been saying it for years and were dismissed because "they're winning." It's nice to see that many of you are coming around to see the horror that is our manager.

On a team like this -- without superstars in their prime -- the in-game decision making needs to be calculated and effective -- not based on gut feelings/instincts. Great guy, great with the players. Bad between the lines. Previous teams were so talented that they could make up for his shortcomings. The 2012 Phillies are not a team that can do that as currently constructed.

Consider me panicked.

Between the crappy offense, crappy bullpen, and crappy managing of the crappy offense and crappy bullpen it's going to be difficult to make the playoffs this season.

Wow, the hyperbole and overstatement on this board are tremendous.

"6 wins cholly cost us." All by himself?

Look, Charlie has made some bad moves - as has been pointed out by many here, so I won't rehash them.

However, he's not the one who put this team together, though I'm sure he had some input.

He can't pitch for the bullpen, and in some cases guys are gonna just have to get guys out. And he can't hit for Erik Kratz either, and based on Bydak's splits vs' RHB [.287/.404/.474, 719 PA] it was absolutely the right call. Is it Charlie's fault bap is wrong and Kratz ain't ready for prime time? :)

Yes, Papelbon should have been used at least once in the last week to stay sharp. I was at the game last night and he didn't look as good as he normally does.

However, the home plate umpire was brutal last night - zero consistency - and his inconsistency contributed to the Mets tying the game in the first place.
.
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But back to Charlie: Rather than in-game management, his strength has always been clubhouse management, getting guys ready to play, holding them accountable behind closed doors, and sticking with them even when slumping, etc. On the whole this has worked, because like any manager who's been a winner, he's had good players. Any player will probably tell you that the manager "having his back" is important. He showed confidence in Freddy last night (though I hate bunting in that situation anyway), and I'm sure Freddy appreciates it, though he needs to DISTINGUISH between his players and discern which ones can best deliver for him and which ones are less likely to.
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But right now, this team is missing it's two best hitters of the last ten years, who also, it's becoming evident, are probably STILL the two best hitters on the team. That hurts, and there is nothing Charlie can do about that.

No manager can win without talent that PERFORMS, and they reason guys like Nix, Wiggy, RFD, etc. do not have the stature that Howard and Utley have is blatantly obvious.

As a comparison, take Joe Torre. He's headed to the HOF as a manager, but he had a LOSING record before he got to NY and George Steinbrenner's money bought him a HF pass.

My point: Charlie is not perfect, and we've seen ample evidence of that. But does it make sense to replace a manager who is good at keeping the clubhouse together - which is PRECISELY the kind of manager that may be needed right now - for someone else who may not be as good at it?

We've known all season what the strategy is: Stay close until Howard and Utley return and then see what they have.

As much as Charlie causes me to frequently scatch my head, I see no reason to dump him at this point. The team is 2 games under and are by no means buried yet.

Utley seems to be progressing better than some (myself included) expected (and I was guilty of not expecting him back last year at all), and seems intent on proving all the naysayers wrong once again.

Howard is 'tweet happy' in FLA, sending a subtle message to his teammates: "Hold down the fort, because my workouts are going well and I WILL be back."

So yeah, last night pissed me off too, especially since I spent money going to the game.

But there have been bright spots this season (KK going head-to-head with Strasburg, Freddy's stellar defense, the SP with 2.98 ERA, etc.) and I'm not ready to make major changes until Utley and Howard are back and we see what happens then.

R. Billingsly is spot-on. When you can trot out the same 8 every night and they are superstars then you can throw it on auto-pilot and enjoy the ride. On a roster like this 2012 one you have to try to turn water into wine. Charlie is making grape soda.

I know nothing about Sandberg. Maybe he would be willing to move the lineup pieces around, so that we don't have one our best hitters batting 7th & two of our worst batting 1st and 2nd. Maybe he would understand things likes not using one of your best hitters to sacrifice, when the guy in the on-deck circle is one of your worst. Or maybe not.

One thing I seriously doubt he'd do differently, though, is to use Papelbon in critical situations where "the book" says you can't use your closer. It would take a real outside-the-box thinker like Larussa or Maddon to do something like that. There aren't too many of those around the world of baseball and the few who do exist would never be hired by the Phillies in any capacity. That's not the way this organization works.

Little concerned with Halladay at this point. He did have a bit more velocity last night topping out at 93 MPH but it is still down 1-2 MPH on his cutter/sinker routinely.

He's also having more control issues this year where he simply loses control on his cutter/sinker liked he did last night in the 5th & 6th. Means he has go to with more changeups and curves & hopes he gets hitters to chase because it is tougher to throw them for a strike consistently especially his changeup.

Still a very good if not elite starter but he isn't quite the pitcher he was in '10 and '11.

What puzzles me about those coming here to defend Charlie is that none of us who are frustrated with him are saying he has the 1927 Yankees as his lineup. We get that he is working with a short deck but the moves he made last night and recently are not even dependent on the actual players. These are basic moves.

It's clear that the mileage is piling up on Doc. He has hit a wall in his last 2 starts in the middle innings. It is very troubling but somewhat expected. Since he is one of the greats I have faith that he will adjust his approach and preparation so that he can get over that hump the middle innings have presented in his last 2 starts.

gobay: "Galvis' glove is nice but he's playing second base. He'll never stop a crucial double or cut down a run at the plate. has anyone ever seen a defensive replacement late in the game at 2nd?"

Thats a poor way to look at it. 2B is among the top defensive positions on the diamond because of the amount of balls being hit to him combined with the other situations he handles the ball(relays/DPs/bunt covers/SBs). Just because 2B isn't a place to steal away extra bases doesn't mean it has less impact than a corner OF.

And the reason you dont see def replacements at 2B is because is your in the MLB and playing second, then you're already a pretty damn good fielder - whereas corner positions are filled with players who hit well and are merely hided in the less important positions, which is why it is more common to replace these players in late innings when their offensive is likely unneeded.

Phlipper: Yes, of course Paps could give up a HR to anyone at any time.

I don't think anyone had an issue with him being in the game last night. That wasn't on Charlie.

What was on Charlie was the hideous managing that set up the entire 8th inning to get Freddy Galvis at the plate in the key situation of the game (something opposing managers dream of). You say we didn't hit with runners in scoring position and that's why we lost. Well, maybe the manager shouldn't have set up the game to rely on the worst hitter in baseball to be the guy who needed to deliver with runners in scoring position.

I actually agree with you that there's no way to connect Papelbon being bad with not having been used for a week. But there's simply no way you could possibly defend Charlie's failure to use Papelbon in the two extra inning games last week. Right? Please tell me you're not going to try and defend that.

Have they fired UC yet?

Oh, wow. I forgot I was talking to Phlipper there. Phlipper actually probably liked having Galvis at the plate there, because, you know, he has 8 RBIs on the season and is probably our MVP.

Nevermind that his season has dipped below Bruntlett-levels of futility at the plate.

I'll tell you what isn't Charlie's fault...Pence's approach in the 7th. How Hunter thought he'd see a fastball early in the count (first pitch especially) is beyond me and I've already commented on it. That was an absolutely terrible at bat. Terrible.

Pence is a straight up idiot. Lowest baseball IQ i've ever seen.

This team desperately needs Utley back. Anyone who doesn't think that even the Utley of last year wouldn't be a huge lift to this team is crazy.

Galvis is a great fielder and a horrendous hitter. Not one good attribute he has as a hitter except the occasional ability to handle a fastball especially on the inner part of the plate. Why any team would throw him a 4-seam fastball in almost any situation is a mystery.

You throw something that has movement on it especially close to the zone & Galvis will miss it or make weak contact on a routine grounder.

Orr has actually contributed a bit offensively but he's a liability in the field. Still would rather have Fontenot on the team. A marginal upgrade but an upgrade nevertheless.

Pence and Victorino seem to be the two lowest IQ's on the team, which makes it amazing to me that they haven't collided into each other yet in true moron fashion.

Pence coming to town has made Victorino look like a Rhodes Scholar.

gobaystars - Indeed. It is frustrating to watch him just flail away as hard as he can regardless of the situation or take his share of ill-advised gambles in RF.

Orr has actually contributed a bit offensively but he's a liability in the field. Still would rather have Fontenot on the team. A marginal upgrade but an upgrade nevertheless.

Posted by: MG

Splitting hairs about Fontenot v. Galvis v. Orr is one of the things that really depresses me about the current state of affairs.

Vic does look smarter with Pence goobing it up out there.

When you get down to it though, the reason this team is under performing is the offense.

They could score a single freaking run in 4 IP against arguably the worst bullpen right now in MLB which has been hemorrhaging runs the last few weeks.

Or only get 2 runs vs. Niese on a night where he couldn't find the plate to save his life. A more patient team would have knocked him out before the 5th inning & would have had more than 4 BBs.

Victorino and Wheels must be good friends because the presence of their new counterparts has put them both in a better light.

"Ok troll. Enjoy this success now and check your desk calendar. It's still May."

Joe D, excellent.

That's what I find so amusing about the trolls who come here:

They moronically forget that the only standings that matter are the ones after 162 games have been played.

What's doubly amusing is that it's a Met troll.

One would think that after 2007 (7 back on Sept. 12th) and 2008 (3.5 back on Sept. 10th) - both years when the Phillies stormed from behind to humiliate the Mets and cost management their jobs - that a Mets' fans would know enough to keep to themselves until the dust settles on October 3rd.

But, they just continue to prove what Phillies fans have know for quite some time:

Mets' fans are really f88888g stupid!

Let me apologize. This site has the best baseball commentary on the net. Dead serious. I just wanted to poke one joke at JRoll and that's it. Didn't mean to start trolling.

J- Ride: this team is not going anywhere but they are fun to watch and scrappy. The 06-09 Mets with all that talent would've lost that game 2-0. This team has something about it; almost a nothing to lose factor. And they are great with 2 outs. I like the young core. And it's great having a shortstop that is more steak than sizzle, and actually understands how to play the game of baseball.

Anyway, apologies for trollin'. Tonight should be a disaster for the Mets.

lorecore: they come close at least once a game

LVP to be has to be Mayberry so far. He made a few nice plays in LF last night but he was another zero at the plate.

Expected he would scuffle and possibly badly at times vs RHP. He isn't even hitting LHP pitching though & has had zero patience/power. No one has had as many clueless ABs where they watched called strikes and swing at utter crap. Not even Galvis.

If he was hitting though vs LHP, it would make it a lot easier to get him into the lineup with a bit more consistency, spot start Pierre in LF, and give this team a desperate power boost.

Not exactly like Francisco is lighting it up it either in Toronto. Appeared in a whole 9 games and has just 18 PAs.

The commentary gets a tad melancholy here after a loss.

After watching our 31 year old rookie catcher strike out without seeking a single strike, I've developed more of an appreciation for the abysmal Brian Schneider.

Let'sgoMets-

I was at the game, sitting in the second row, half way between 1B and RF. Not once did I hear anyone screaming that Werth got what he deserved or anything to that effect. In fact, most all of the Phillies fans (including those that were seriously inebriated), stood up and joined the Nats fans in showing their respect when he got up and started walking back to the dug out.

Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if Luke Russell and Wolf Blitzer said something like that.

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