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Tuesday, January 24, 2012

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Guess we can thank Victor Marinez' ACL/MCL for not letting Prince into the NL East

Good he's not coming to nats. Scott boras does it again. So similar to cliff last year. Three teams/4 going in then out of nowhere the mystery team everyone was talking about he signs with! They are gonna own that division for a while. All those teams are years behind tigers.

Wow. My first thought is, thank God he's out of the NL (and not going to the Nats). And my second is I really underestimated Boras.

Maybe the success Prince's dad had in Detroit had a (very) small part in his decision. I would think Prince lived there for a while.

Whew! Keeping Prince out of DC and out of the Phillies' schedule is definitely good news. In Detroit, we won't even see him in interleague play that often.

I am puzzled that it was Detroit of all places, given that they already have Cabrera parked at 1B and signed through 2015. Miggy hasn't played 3B in five years, so I suppose one is at 1B, one is at DH, and that's that for the next four years. Hell of a gamble, given that both have 'DH' stamped on their forehead as they get into their 30s.

Fielder/Cabrera is really scary. Really shocking move and also glad he's not on the Nats. How does Howard's 5 years $125 million look now? Nine years is crazy.

There's alot of people on here who swore Fielder would never get more years than Howard's five.

Cripes! I just realized that the Tigers have V-Mart through 2014. What are the Tigers going to do in 2013? Have Cabrera play LF or 3B again?

My guess is that they're going to have to move one of them, because otherwise they're going to be paying $110MM over 2013-2014 for three guys who can only play two positions.

Somewhere Ryan Madson has to wonder how he ended up being the Scott Boras client that got screwed.

Howard's 5 years 125 million is still rediculous.

Somewhere on a Detroit blog, some fan is upset about the 2014 budget.

Nothing like massively overpaying out of desperation. That's ends well. Boras got his man paid though.

Now a question if Jackson get a multi-year deal or not.

Betemit got only a base of $3M for 2 yrs (incentive potential up to $6M but largely based on PT).

Better player & cheaper than Wigginton to boot.

Prince will play 1b through 2013 then. Then they only need to move him to DH in 2014 once v-mart's contract is up . Or if he still can handle 1b, then cabrera can dh in 14' and prince can still play 1st. He's not the WORST 1b ever, and he's still on the young side.

Thank God the Nats didn't get Fielder. Betamit never struck me as someone who'd pan out when he was playing here un Richmond @ AAA, but I'm right there with ya when comparing him to Wiggy. Rube jumped at him when the Rocks decided to pay 2 million.

That's a lot of money for a 400lb whale.

He's a better hitter overall than Howard, but nine years? Wow. I really wonder what other team would have approached that length of contract and those dollars. Could it be that Boras once again invented a suitor to make someone bid against himself? Sure sounds like it.

Howard's contract is still ridiculous. But this contract takes a big guy and power hitter to age 36. My guess is that they're very happy for five or six years of the nine, then there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

I actually like the fact that the Tigers were a "mystery team" in all of this. I like to be surprised every now and again. Just shows that many of the rumors you hear are negotiation tactics and should be taken with a grain of salt.

As much as I still hate Ryan's contract, imagine if we opted not to extend him, he got hurt, and we're stuck in the 1B market this offseason? I can't imagine too many Phans who think 9 years for Prince is a good investment (though, we don't have the DH).

Who will be the better defensive 1B, Thome now, or Prince in the final year of his contract (since both are really just DH's at that point)?

Blue Jays just signed Cordero.. 1 yr. 4.5 mill

I'm probably the only one who's disappointed Fielder didn't land with the Nats or the Mets (who I was hoping was the mystery team).

While either team would have gotten better by signing him but they wouldn't have gotten good enough. By the time the Phils (possibly) decline enough for it to matter, Prince will have declined himself to the point of being an extremely expensive fat wreck, only fit for DHing, but stuck on a long term contract with an NL team.

He'd have ended up as far more of an albatross for an NL team then Howard ever will. Which is exactly the kind of noose I like around the neck of divisional opponents.

Once again, Boras pulls one out of his a88.

While I'm glad that Fielder isn't in the NL East for competitive reasons, it would have been nice to see a really good player of his calibre more often.

To buy Fielder's age 27-31 years you have to take on his age 32-36 years. Howard's contract is for just his age 32-36 years.

Boras is great for the Prince Fielders of the world. Problem is, he is absolutely oblivious to the concept that different players have differing amounts of bargaining power. For anyone who isn't a superstar, Boras is a terrible agent. Just ask Ryan Madson, Kyle Lohse, Jarrod Washburn, and Edwin Jackson.

No Pujols. No Fielder. The National League now has a glaring lack of marquee position players. Pressure's on, r00b. You're gonna look pretty bad if the Phillies can't manage to win the pennant when the ol' Senior Circuit is as weak as it has been at any point in my lifetime.

GTown, but what about Ryan Braun?

Oh.....

Three thoughts.

(1) Glad he's out of the NL, and especially out of the Phils' division.

(2) That's an awful lot of money over an awful lot of years, especially for a guy in Fielder's condition.

(3) From a purely personal point of view, kind of sorry Madson, who I like, sort of got stuck holding the bag; while Fielder and Boras, who I do not, come out smelling like roses. Small minded, yeah, sorry.

Preacher: word.

Then again, all Braun has to do to rehab his image is become a Yankee. People only give a sh*t about PEDs when non-Yankees use 'em. But sign a fat contact w/ NY: all is forgiven!

Still willing to trade Howard to any runners up (including the Nats) in this Prince madness. This contract manages to make Howard's deal more tolerable but I would dump him in minute for peanuts.

Lincoln - I would have loved the Nats to have signed Fielder to this deal. It would have really put their long-term payroll in rocky shape & made it unlikely they were able to sign Zimmerman long-term.

I can't believe the Phils weren't in on Cordero at $4.5 million unless he didn't want a set up role.

Yeah, I get the whole spin "this makes the Howard contract more palatable." However, it only makes the Howard contract more palatable if either Howard comes back to put up comparable numbers, or if Prince is a lock to miss time with an injury that will more than likely impact his output for the better part of a full season, going into what are likely to be declining years.

But, I'm thrilled that it's one less stud player to pitch around during the season, and hopefully through the NLDS and NLCS.

There is no functional way to use Cabrera at 3rd, the dude is in bad shape. He gets traded if he can't work at LF or DH.

It's interesting to compare the Howard and Fielder contracts now, but the way they'll ultimately be judged is by how well the player performs duting their terms.

If Howard rebounds to a 36/123 ((his 162 gm. avg. the last 2 years) player for the next 5 years, and Fielder cruises at 36/102 (his 162 gm. avg. the last 2 years), are those extra RBI any indication that the Phillies are getting more value out of the player and the contract?

Who's a better defender at 1B, Fielder or Cabrera?

Lincecum: 2 years, $40.5MM.

Buys out his arb years.

His first year under any contract after that will be his age 30 season.

"If Howard rebounds to a 36/123 ((his 162 gm. avg. the last 2 years) player for the next 5 years, and Fielder cruises at 36/102 (his 162 gm. avg. the last 2 years), are those extra RBI any indication that the Phillies are getting more value out of the player and the contract?"

No. Seriously using just RBIs as a way to value contracts? Even traditionalists wouldn't do that.

Listened to uncle cholly on radio. Said big truck getting better. Dom brown looks good. Added some weight and worked all winter on swing. ( we shall see). Howard limp going away. Still has it but he said he is ahead of sched. And galvis and Garcia are going to be close to the show soon.

Rauls grandpa: Yeah, Howard provides nothing for the Phillies. They wouldn't miss him a bit. You're sharp as a tack aren't you?

awh: "Who's a better defender at 1B, Fielder or Cabrera?"

Fielder. Cabrera will be the DH.

I wonder how big a factor was the fact his dad played for the Tigers.

The hook: Pitchers and catchers must be just around the corner. You've made the first of approximately 537 posts we will read about how player X "looks good, added muscle, is in the best shape of his life and worked on his swing all winter."

I learned so much stuff troughout this blog, thanks

MG, I know. Sorry if the sarcasm didn't come through.

clout, and Fielder is thought to be a below average defender, at least according to Ben Nicholson-Smith at mlbtr:

"Fielder's considered a below average defender at first base..."

2012 is Mini-Mart's time. I hear that he worked on his swing all winter and is in the best shape of his life.

Saw Rube on Clubhouse confidential yesterday and said Minimart looks like he's pregnant or at least really constipated, and he's moving like he needs two hip replacements. Oh, and his swing looks like he's playing racquetball with an overripe banana. So there's that.

Yeah clout, I am sure he comes back and smacks 30 + homers and 120 RBI average for the rest of his career, he will totally be worth more than Fielder or Pujols. Keep dreaming. He will be totally worth his dough when they have to let Cole go. Freedom from his deal will be worth far more than having Howard from here on out, I will guarantee it. How about this deal? If Howard has anything like one of his career years (in any 3 categories or more, and no not K's)I will leave this site and you can harass whoever you want without me. If not, you make yourself as scarce as when Conlin got skinned alive on here. Deal?

BAP, has he added any muscle?

Better yet, has he added any height?

Clout just reporting what I heard. I don't know who is full of more $hit. Clout or bap? The insight they provide are second to none. Thank you for blessing us with your baseball insight and worthless knowledge.

Wow. Rauls grandpa in a steel cage death match with clout. Nasty.

Seriously, I have to wonder if Leyland had any say whatsoever in this. If a fitness devotee like Ryan Howard can blow a tire coming out of the batter’s box in his age 31 season, I can't imagine the magnitude of injury that a chronically heavy player such as Fielder might sustain. Heck, maybe as early as next season.

Come to think of it, maybe RAJ did do the right thing locking up Howard early. Now the Big Piece has huge motivation to show the world he's still the man. I also absolutely hate the thought of giving 9 years/ $200+ million to a player (Fielder) who’s probably never stepped on a major league baseball field without someone doing a double take and exclaiming, "Whoa! Look at the size of that guy!"

Detroit is going to have to buy some industrial-weight scales for the clubhouse next season.

Somewhat perplexed by the Cordero contract. $4.5 mil to be a set-up man. Were the Phil's not interested at that price?? I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they offered $4.25mil.

"Seriously, I have to wonder if Leyland had any say whatsoever in this. If a fitness devotee like Ryan Howard can blow a tire coming out of the batter’s box in his age 31 season, I can't imagine the magnitude of injury that a chronically heavy player such as Fielder might sustain."

cut, you mean the same Leyland who used to chain smoke in the dugout before MLB basically had to pass a rule just to get him to stop? He doesn't exactly strike me as the pinnacle of one's self-awareness. Also, he's worked with Miggy Cabrera for a few years now. Enough said.

I do wonder if Fielder becomes an absolute blob if he becomes a full-time DH in the next few years.

Really killed his dad's career who became a mound of blubber after 30 in a Tiger's uniform.

"History does not repeat itself, but it does rhyme" as Twain supposedly said likely will be the case here.

Posada retired today officially too. There aren't many players I genuinely have disliked in baseball but Posada was surely one of them. His nickname of "'Lil B!tch" in Boston was quite apt when I lived there.

Complained/chirped endlessly whether he was at bat or behind the plate. Complained so much so that some of his own pitchers over the years didn't want to work with him.

I'm a little surprised Prince went to Detroit considering his issues with his father and the issue it will be in Detroit as everyone will want to talk about it.
As for the contracts, I'd rather be Phila, NYY or Det and take all these "bad contracts" to the playoffs every year than be Pitt, KC or Oak with all the good contracts but loads of bad players.

There are no good contracts for bad players. Just more tolerable ones.

Jeepers creepers what a contract for a Prince. I guess we can for the moment get off RAJ for out biding himself.

LaRussa managing the All-Star game is good news. I think they are adding more pitchers this year. No worries about our pitchers being overworked. He'll probably be changing pitchers every 2-3 batters.

Obama just said "If it can happen in Detroit it can happen in Cleveland or Pittsburgh or anywhere." I don't know. I really don't see the Pirates signing any big name free agents in the near future.

I don't see Howard's contract being that bad. About the same dollars/year the players finish the contract at around the same age, but less risk for Phil's because it's less years. Although I 'll bet if all 3 hit the market at the same time Howard would hav earned the least per year out of the 3

How does Fielder DH on that team with both VMart and Cabrera under contract for 3 and 4 more years respectively.

I just bet $100 that Prince wouldn't beat Cecil's HR/RBI totals over his first 7 years as a Tiger

245 HR/758 RBI in 7 years.

What are the odds I win that? 50/50?

"Thank you for blessing us with your baseball insight and worthless knowledge."

A bit sensitive, aren't we? I was just folowing up on clout's lead & making a dumb joke. It was not in any way directed at your post.

***Posada retired today officially too. There aren't many players I genuinely have disliked in baseball but Posada was surely one of them.***

How many mound visits did he make during the press conference?

Little Ceaser wants a ring. Stay off the pizza Prince.

Albatross!!!

Anyone know the back story on the Prince / Cecil "estrangement"?

It stems from a dispute over who ate the last slice of pizza.

Cabrera on third and Fielder on first. Weight-wise, that's a balanced infield. Whoever has the closest pizza delivery to the Tiger's clubhouse is going to make a fortune.

baystars,
+50 for that comment. Good thing Pops Ripken,Griffey and Bonds all would splurge for the extra box of cheesy bread to sate their hungry families. If only Cecil had.

Dragon,
It's good news for the fans along the lines though. There is no way an errant throw makes it past either of these tanks without at least grabbing a little bit of flab and smacks an unsuspecting granny doing crochet in the $150 seats.

Amaro, Bowa, and Sandberg in Reading last nite. Amaro said the luxury tax WILL NOT preclude the Phils from signing Hamels longterm. Not being able to get a deal done will. Sounds like?

"I just bet $100... *snip* ...are the odds I win that? 50/50?"

I'd estimate at minimum 4:1 in your favor. Virtually every variable leans against him matching his father:

a) He'll be older (age 28-34 seasons vs his father's 26-32).
b) He'll need to keep his HR and RBI averages at almost exactly what they have been over the 6 years he's been a starter, with no appreciable decline until he's at least 35.
c) Over the course of Prince's career Miller has consistently had better park factors in every relevant stat except triples, which he's too slow to take advantage of in Comerica.
d) He's a fat load, with a body type historically prone to short careers, with a family history of physically falling apart, and no real discernible attempts to change his physical shape (ala Howard).
e) There are two parts to the bet, leaving you with four possible outcomes (-HR/-RBI,-HR/+RBI,+HR/-RBI,+HR/+RBI) of which only one is an outright loss for you.

I'd make the same bet as you in a heartbeat, if only I knew someone dumb enough to take it.

"Anyone know the back story on the Prince / Cecil "estrangement"?"

Some version of it surfaces every year or so. Big Fielder gambled away his fortune and bankrupted the family. Acrimonious divorce. Then, father supposedly 'took' a couple hundred thousand dollars from his teenage son's signing bonus 'without asking.'

If I'm a Tiger fan, I'm pretty damn happy my team went long to get this player. Howard is a much more personable guy and I like watching him play. But, to my eyes, fat slob or no, Fielder is a better athlete. He moves better on the field and on the bases. Hard to believe but, I believe it. He's also a far better pure hitter and I wouldn't be surprised if he stays on the field, rather than being a DH, for a majority of the deal.

Put Wilson Betemit on the team of MG's all-stars along with Joe Nathan, George Sherrill and Nick Punto.

Iceman - Would you rather have Betemit or Wigginton which is a completely valid question given the positions they play, their perspective deals, and the roles they will play?

Boras is a terrible agent. Just ask Ryan Madson, Kyle Lohse, Jarrod Washburn, and Edwin Jackson

Kyle Lohse made out just fine. He had to take a 1 year contract but then signed a big one the next year. From 2010-2012 he will make about $33M (not sure of all the contract details).

Prince Fielder is the next Jimmie Foxx...Scott Boras said so.

Granted, Foxx's career was basically over after his Age 33 season...so there's that.

Then, father supposedly 'took' a couple hundred thousand dollars from his teenage son's signing bonus 'without asking.'

I've heard Cecil took "all" the bonus.
Also Cecil was not around for the pre-bonus part of Prince's life.


http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/phillies-talk/post/Who-is-the-NLs-premier-first-baseman-?blockID=637628&feedID=693

Really good question. If Davis and Howard are both ranked in the top 4 despite both coming off very serious injuries, it tells you just how bad the talent at 1B is now in the NL with the departure of Pujols, Fielder, and Gonzalez the last 2 years.

Both corner infield positions (1B/3B) right now in the NL are really weak. At 3B, you have Zimmerman and then Wright/Sandoval & a couple of geezers (Jones, Ramirez, Rolen). At 1B, its Votto and everybody else including Howard/Davis.

So does that mean Iceman's All stars include Ty Wigginton, Dontrelle Willis, and Wilson Valdez?

I'll take MG's allstars.

Ike Davis? How about we play more than 1 full season before we mention his name in anything.

I think Alex made the best point about the Fielder contract vis a vis Howard's. Phillies will be paying $25m per for his age 32-36 seasons while Detroit will be paying $23.7m for Prince's, age 32-36. And, that's without calculating for inflation between now and 2021. Inflation was about 19% over the low inflationary period of the last 9 years.

MG- would I have wanted the mediocre Betemit on a two-year deal with an easy vesting option for a third year? No. Certainly not enough to obsess over him like I'm sure you'll be doing this season.

I don't want Wiggington, either, but at least we can cut bait with him after this season. And if the alternative is Betemit on a 2 or 3 year deal, my answer would be none of the above.

MG: the NL probably has more up and comers at 1st though. Freddie Freeman, Ike Davis, Anthony Rizzo, Paul Goldschmidt, Brandon Belt, & Yonder Alonso. THough Eric Hosmer and Justin Smoak are well regarded in the AL.

I think Freddie Freeman is pretty good. Better than Ike Davis. Berkman is now a 1B. If you believe that he's returned to form, he qualifies too.J bird beat me.. lol

"Kyle Lohse made out just fine. He had to take a 1 year contract but then signed a big one the next year."

He did make out fine because, after demanding a 4-year deal and holding out for it until February, he eventually took a one-year deal & proceeded to have a career year which enhanced his value. But that had absolutely nothing to do with Scott Boras.

bap, Boras was his agent for his 4 year deal, right? If you bash him for the first deal, you have to give him credit for the second deal. Kyle Lohse, a slightly lesser pitcher than Joe Blanton, is getting something like a 33% premium on top of what Joe gets. Think about that.

Was Boras Beltre's agent also? Because he had the same kind of result as Lohse (better contract, obviously).

If Boras sells himself as high-risk, high-reward agent, he's being honest with the players. Assuming a year somewhat in line with last year, Madson will get a nice 3/4 year contract.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1104580/index.htm?eref=sisf

"But soon after Cecil retired in 1998, it all began to unravel for the Fielders. Cecil became engulfed in a number of lawsuits, and despite his $47 million in career earnings, he and his wife, Stacey, ultimately lost their dream home, a 50-room, $3.7 million palace on the biggest estate in Florida's Brevard County. An acrimonious divorce tore the family apart. For five years Cecil eluded creditors and ducked reporters, but now he is back in baseball for the first time since his playing days, traveling from one Southern hamlet to another, teaching minor league kids to hit."...
"Stacey pointed to Cecil's gambling; he cited her extravagant spending. Prince took Stacey's side, engaging in shouting matches with Cecil in the courtroom and over the phone. " Prince felt like he needed to protect his mother and become the man of the house, so we had some heated conversations," says Cecil. "Some bad things were said." Prince also accused his father of taking $200,000 of his signing bonus without permission. "My father is dead to me," he told The Detroit News in 2004."...
"He thinks his latest venture--he and Evander Holyfield are partners in a broadband network, the Black Family Channel, which recently merged with the Gospel Music Channel--will be a big success." --

the article was written in 2007, how'd that cable channel venture with evander work out?

it honestly is a sad story and one seen too often in professional sports

re: hating JD Drew

I disagree with posters from last thread who tried to lump him in with Scott Rolen as a player who simply wanted the Phillies to spend bigger and become a better team.

JD Drew didn't want to come to Philly, period, for whatever reasons. Yes he was honest and told Philly don't bother and they did anyway - so the team isn't completely innocent - but the main point is that he told the Phillies to screw themselves unless they paid him an unprecedented amount of guaranteed money.

So i 'hate' jd drew too, and most self respecting philadelphians/phillies fan should too.

lorecore, Drew had leverage in a negotiation and didn't sign a deal that he didn't want to sign. That's America, if I can get a bit hyperbolic :). How can you get mad at him?

RAJ said that Brown will have a chance to "win" the starting job away from RFD. Given that the FO stated earlier that RFD was slated to platoon with Nix, doesn't that mean that Brown has a chance to "win" the starting LF LHB position away from Nix?

I'm curious to see if Brown's defense and baserunning has improved.

Edmundo: I understand the dynamics of it all, Boras was trying to take down the entire MLB Draft to get prospects paid at market value. Drew and the Phillies were merely a pawn, but in the end Drew and his agent opted to play for an independent laegue team than Philly - so my reaction remains - screw him.

And obviosuly, screw Ed Wade and the FO for taking him in the first place. My hate is equally distributed, dont worry.

"bap, Boras was his agent for his 4 year deal, right? If you bash him for the first deal, you have to give him credit for the second deal."

Pretty much any agent could have gotten that second deal after his client had gone 15-6 with a 113 ERA+ the previous year. You're giving Boras credit for the fact that his client, after signing a totally undesirable one-year deal, had the good fortune to bounce back with a career year. You're also making assumptions that Boras represents himself to be a high-risk, high-reward agent. I've never heard him say that. He represents himself to be an agent, period.

An agent is essentially an advocate and, as someone who used to do criminal trials (and still does criminal appeals), I can tell you that one of an advocate's primary duties is to bring his/her client back to the real world when the client starts out with totally unrealistic expectations about what to expect from the case. Boras does exactly the opposite. He takes the client's unreasonable expectations & runs with them. As I said in my first post, that usually works with the guys like Fielder & Jayson Werth, who are at the top of the free agent food chain. But guys like Ryan Madson & Edwin Jackson are somewhat farther down the food chain; they both have value, but their value isn't so much greater than the other available guys as to justify a huge long-term deal. If Madson & Jackson believe otherwise, it's Boras's job to rein them in & get them the best deal that actually exists in the real world.

Iceman - I didn't mind the 2nd yr. Phils' system is basically devoid of any 1B/3B prospects who will come up in the next year or two even capable of occupying a bench spot. $1.5M AAV value too as a base isn't that bad and he is just 30. Not some guy who is 34 or 35 & you really don't want to sign to a multi-year deal.

The kicker is the vesting option on the 3rd year. Do you know how many PAs he has to get?

My hate is equally distributed, dont worry.

lorecore, fair enough!

Now Brown has a chance to win a job in spring training? Why the hell did Amaro sign Nix for 2 years then? Handling of Brown has been baffling and contradictory at best.

Brown needs to play everyday & have some success out without the limelight of criticism on any minor mistake he makes. Why I want to see him start the season in Lehigh, have some success hopefully, get comfortable playing LF everyday, and be brought up later in the year if necessary.

Understand those you would make the argument thought that Brown should be used & they shouldn't have signed Nix though.

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