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Wednesday, December 07, 2011

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We shouldnt have never traded him...LMAO! Now they want him back....CTFU! Why would the trade Lee after he gave up money to come here..TFU!

This would make sense for one reason, to take a strength (pitching) and use it to get a weakness (offense).

If you trade prospects for Gio, you have a nice #3 starter.

Hamels for a big time bat...

Now you are talking...

It would take a curtis granderson or a justin upton to pry my death grip on cole hamels tho....

Is there anything sparking up with the phils and mets about David Wright? That's what needs to happen. Leave the pitching alone as long as wright doesn't take another fastball off the dome he would be awesome in Philly.

I would think replacing Hamels with Gio and Dom with Nix would be a two downgrades.


But then I didn't go to Stanford.

Hamels is probably the best LHP in baseball under the age of 30. You would have to get a massive package to even consider moving him.

He's the guy we should be locking up long-term this winter instead of Ryan Freaking Howard.

Rube,
I thought I said to resign the girly man.

Swinging a deal for David Wright (say Dom Brown, Trevor May and a 3rd piece) would be fantastic.

NEPP - I'd put Kershaw ahead of Hamels on that list, but I'm not sure there is anyone else ahead of him.

If Rube could somehow swing something that turned Hamels + prospects into Gio + J. Upton would that be worth it?

To be clear,I don't think the DBack would trade Uptin for Hamels, but it would need to be a player of that caliber to make trading Hamels worthwhile.

Good point on Kershaw...so he's the #2 LHP in baseball udner the age of 30.

I can't envision a scenario where trading Hamels makes sense.

Not one.

noname, I wouldn't do it for Granderson. I just wouldn't. I do agree about Upton, though. But if you're Arizona, why would you move a cost-controlled player like Upton for a guy who's going to be an Fa after 2012.

BTW, has anyone asked this question:

Are the Phillies interested in Gonzalez BECAUSE they've had discussions with Hamels and his agent and his salary demands are too high?

Trading Cole Hamels would be one mistake this team would regret for many years to come.

That said, I think I'm the only guy who wants another starter, and given that I'm also open to trading Dom Brown, if the return could be someone like Gio Gonzalez, I would absolutely be in favor of the move. But not at the expense of then flipping Hamels for a 'Cliff Lee special.'

I'm sure the A's are dying to trade Gio away to get a Free Agent-to-be-Cole Hamels.

Upton + Gio > Hamels.

Most certainly.

Hamels or Kerhaw?

I'd be interested to see what they would both do pitching in the same ballpark.

Billinsly - agree on Hamels

NEPP - "Swinging a deal for David Wright (say Dom Brown, Trevor May and a 3rd piece) would be fantastic."

Wow. I don't know. Hate to trade away more youth to get a guy who's been only a little better than Polanco the past three years (or a little worse if you believe fangraphs).

Photos where the subject makes eye contact directly into the camera lens creep me out...but not as much as losing Hamels would. Perhaps, as awh suggests, the Phillies can't afford him because he's not willing to backload his contract--meaning they'd have over 100 million tied up in, what, 5 players, for the coming seasons. I hope to God this is just the old "due diligence" and not a sign of things to come.

As for Brown, I don't see a trade happening. They've protected him so many times before when his value was even higher.

"Trading Cole Hamels would be one mistake this team would regret for many years to come."

Iceman, that depends solely on who they got in return.

Suppose he was traded in a package with May and Brown to the Dodgers - for Kershaw? (Not saying the dodgers would do it, just illustrating.)

Upton + Gio > Hamels.

That makes sense? For who? How do you get there? Who has to be traded to get that done? Hamels to OAK, prospects to ARZ and Upton to PHL?

I don't think that's a plausible scenario. Do you?

OMG. I don't even believe this team is entertaining discussions of trading their home grown championship winning ace! Does Amaro want to get rid of every player from the 2008 team?

Philadelphia always says it loves a winner. There is no scenario where Cole Hamels should be traded and he should retire a Phillie. They've tried replacing him 4 times and they still haven't won another championship.

Why does this story make me feel like the Phillies' trade stratagem is to buy high and sell low?

Serious question: Is there any 3 players the Phils could trade to Oakland that they would accept?

To a team like Oakland, i bet they'd rank the following players in 'trade value': DOM, Worley, May, Bastardo, Valle

Any combo of those 3 still doesnt get you Gio, a 25yr LH starter with back to back 200IP campaigns of an ERA+ of 127 and 130 who is under team control until 2015.

Madson probably whispered to Rube that he's coming back and wants to be a starter again. He knows the big time Hamels type money is pitching every 5th day.

There is no team in baseball that would offer the right package for Hamels, imo. I sincerely hope this is some sort of PR stunt to try and distract everyone from some orthogonal move.

If and only if they have exhausted talks with Cole and he said he wants to "test free agency" and not sign an extension should he be traded. None of those guys are worth young and talented.

Is there a team that possesses less trade value to a rebuilding/low payroll team than the Philadelphia Phillies? Without digging too deep my first guess is... No.

It makes no sense for a 102-win team to tinker with its strength by trading Hamels.

Instead, if the Phils are interested in Gio, I think it would be for the purpose of acquiring a No. 4 starter who is more likely than Worley to produce a 2012 season like Worley's 2011 season. I don't think much of Worley's future.

OTOH, Gio's success the last two seasons may be largely a consequence of his pitching in a pitcher's park.

I like the idea of the Phils trying to upgrade the rotation, but there may be better alternatives than Gio.

Meh....this is likely just another rumor that will go nowhere. But, if there's truth to it, I'd look at it as a hedge in case Hamels walks and an insight into what the Phillies think of their rotation beyond the top four this year. Bumping Worley back to five and maintaining the four aces mystique seems Rubelike. I wouldn't look at at it as opening the possibility of a Hamels trade. But, of course, anything can happen.

Dom, Worley and May for Gio(who's considerably cheaper/under team control). Then Hamels to TOR for Lawrie, D'Arnaud, Gillies + cash? That would solve 3B for years, catcher of the future, and more depth to the farm. I might be tempted if I was RAJ to hang dong all over these trade scenarios.

and then re-sign Oswalt

Blonders--

No way. We have to improve for 2012. no prospects for Hamels. All star MLB controllable talent or no trade.

THIS JUST IN.

It is Halladay, not Hamels, that the Phils plan to trade. The team desperately wants to get younger.

derek: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

AWH: Why would the Phillies trade Hamels AND Brown AND May for Kershaw, when they could just keep Hamels?

What would it take to get Gio in th first place, evry article I have read has Beane asking for 3-4 top tier prospects. The Phillies top prospects would be May and I guess Brown, would that be enough to obtain Gio, and would you want to do that deal??

I love Upton, but it would take more to get Hamels right??

Blonders: we have Gillies. You mean Gose?

What people think: If Hamels wants "free agency" money now, trade him for prospects/offense and then give him the free agency money next year to have back.

Problem with that: Phils want to win in 2012, and they f'n should because they are the best team in baseball. Skipping a year of Hamels might cost your franchise a world series. Do the Phillies win the 2010 WS if stupid sub90mph fat overpaid worthless Joe Blanton doesn't start vs the Giants? Couldn't have hurt.

Why would the dodgers trade away Kershaw when they still need to be sold and cost certainty is the #1 important factor. Especially for a guy who'd be asking for 20mm a year the next year after party x buys the team.

man you guys think this is a joke? Do you really think the Phillies can sign another pitcher long term at $20 mil per year? No way. He is walking after 2012 anyway. So, you get a lot of value for him now and get a Gio to replace him and a nice bat....or you wait and get a 3rd round pick like the muts got for Reyes.

Your choice!

Jim Bowden just reported the Phillies and A's have discussd a Gio for Brown in packaged deal

Is the J-Roll "stalemate" pulling Rube's hamstring so much that he can only talk about alternate plans? If Rollins decides to wait till Dec 10th to walk, most of the options may be dried up by then. C'mon Jimmy and Rube, Sh##T or get off the pot.. 3yrs plus friendly option or take your act to Millwaukee.

Can we get them to throw Taylor into that Gio for Brown deal? We'll give them Matt the Answer to sweeten it.

Brown and Worley enough to get Gio?.. ok Matt too Andy lol

Books will be written, stories will be told.

No way Worley goes. Cole goes to Marlins for Stanton #Lol.

BedBeard, WTF? What part of "illustration" didn't you understand?

Rube collects pitching at the expense of prospects, 3B, shortstops, left fielders etc.. Seems to work anyway.. until he turns into a pumpkin

Your post still doesn't make any sense.

"It was the best of times; it was the Goosewurst of times...

With our depleted farm, lets go after this offseason's hottest trade commodity to address an area that is already the strength of the team.
Makes sense, I guess.

A's to reconstitute the super-outfield of Taylor-Brown?

I think you are missing the point bonehead......


It is get Gio who is controllable and trade Hamels for a bat (who will most likely leave in FA in a weak SP market next year).


It seems like a great idea to me. But hey, I am not the one with a ridiculous man crush on the remnants of the 08 WS team.

Please send Brown somewhere for something, I am sick of reading about his potential. He's not a clock spring.

Here comes the heresy: I think Dom Brown ends up as a AAAA player.. I think if the A's (or anyone else) sees starter value, we need to maximize it in a deal. OK, I'm ready for all of the slings and arrows.

BedBeard, my post makes sense if you have reading comprehension skills.

I was responding to Iceman's post where he stated that the Phillies would regret trading Hamels for "many years to come".

I responded by saying that depends solely on who they got in return."

I used an ILLUSTRATION of having Kershaw instead of Hamels. Would the Phillies regret that?

unless you turn around and trade Hamels for a Big Bat, what's the point of trading for Gio? a 4-5-6 of Blanton-Worely-Kendrick is more than adequate. all three would be #3 starters on most teams.

The big flaw in your grand plan, noname, is that Dom isn't worth much in trade; so it takes practically the whole farm to get your boy Gio.

awh: right, but you illustrated having the Phils also including Brown and May. I get that it was all made up to prove a point, which I agree there's ways Hamels can be moved that would be good, but your example was terrible.

BedBeard, fine. I was merely pointing out to Iceman that his opinion wasn't necessarily accurate.

How about trading prospects for Gio, and moving Hamels to the Yankees for Jesus Montero, as well as one of the highly-touted pitching prospects duo of Manny Banuelos and Dellin Betances, and top center field prospect Mason Williams?

Would the Phillies or Yankees do that? Probably not, but WTF knows?

Is that a better example for you?

Potential playoff caliber teams who have weak rotations and desperately need a #1 starter like Hamels:

Min
Tor
Tex
Cin
NYY. . .

Love Hamels but I wouldn't fuss too much about a deal centered around Lawrie, Joey Bats can play 3rd for Tor.

Dom Brown had a bad year last year, but that was fairly predictable based on the injury he sustained in Spring Training. It seems that trading him now would be the worst example of selling low.

"The big flaw in your grand plan, noname, is that Dom isn't worth much in trade;"

You don't know that. His value certainly isn't what it was, but he'd be a big key in any trade.

Oops, should say "both top pitching prospects..."

I love how everyone has given up on Dom Brown. Billy Beane would let Dom play unlike Rube....

And then he will figure it out and bonehead will look like a bonehead.

awh: Phillies don't have a DH spot so Montero might be a defensive headache. Can't see Halladay being enthused about replacing his Chooch Plush.

No way we move may. Way too much upside. If we get Gio for brown, Vance or something. Only way trade Cole is for a major league all star player. That's it. 3rd basemen or a outfielder.

Wow. I didn't see the Mets Giants trade until now. Pagan for Torres? Using Rauch to set up and Ramirez to close? With the Natinals improving, I think we've pretty much established the NL east doormat for 2012.

sifl is correct. Brown's year was somewhat predictable given the injury and surgery he had last ST.

Taking that into account, do we really KNOW what Brown's trade value is - that is, what other teams would give up for him given the context of the injury?

I don't think so.

Bonehead: Brown might not be as valuable as he was a year ago, but he hasn't fallen that far as to be a worthless trade piece. He showed very good strike zone judgement in his limited playing time.

awh: Better. There was a report Phils were scouting Betances at the deadline last year.

If Hamels is traded, I bet he goes out West, or to the lesser AL East team, like Toronto.

Jbird, who says they'd have to KEEP Montero? Couldn't they move him in another trade?

I love how everyone knows what Dom Brown will become based off 280 career PA. Absolutely astounding what some people know off that. Can I please have the numbers to tomorrow's lottery too?

Francisco is closing for the Mets Andy.. But they still suck

awh - I seen Mason Williams. He is the bomb, baby. He can flat out hit and is supa-fast. He oughta skip a level this year and start at high A.

The "problem" with trading Worley is that we don't really know how good he is, or is going to be.

He improved markedly in 2011.

Was that an abberation, or is it repeatable because Schneider helped him focus on his two-seamer against LHH?

Will he regress? If so, how much?

***With our depleted farm, lets go after this offseason's hottest trade commodity to address an area that is already the strength of the team.
Makes sense, I guess.***

Sounds like someone couldn't get into Stanford...

***or is it repeatable because Schneider helped him focus on his two-seamer against LHH?***

Schneider is the Dave Duncan of backup catchers. That's why we brought him back for another year.

In the right deal, of course, but I don't think trading Worley is a smart move for 2012.

Is Blanton moveable at all? Assuming it'd be a salary dump.

Susan Slusser of SF Chronicle confirms Phils interest in Gio..Says Phils are also interested in RP Craig Breslow

NEPP - Only Dave Duncan hits better.

"Here comes the heresy: I think Dom Brown ends up as a AAAA player..."

That's actually conventional wisdom -- roughly as blanket as the notion circa 2009-10 that Cole Hamels was too soft to succeed.

This thread is an amusing read. JW posts that the Phillies and A's have discussed a Gio Gonzalez trade, and he mentions Dom as the obvious trade candidate. Then he writes, "Trading for the bubbly young southpaw would open an assortment of possibilities, including the concept of trading Cole Hamels." Then the discussion thread starts, and jw's offhand comment somehow morphs into, "Oh my God, RAJ's gonna trade Cole Hamels!"

Well, Jim Bowden and other writers have mentioned Gio/Dom, so it didn't start here.

Klaus.. "soft" is a personality trait.. My opinion is on Dom's performance (albeit a small sample). "Can't miss prospects" often miss. I'm just saying that players can hit the wall at the major league level. I believe Dom is one of those players.

If they could get Gio. I would be calling the Cubs to see if they have interest in Cole. Any trade then would start with their SS and prospects.

Don't know why people are so opposed to the Amaro looking at this and trying to move Hamels for some necessary other pieces to help the club in other areas and acquire younger/cheaper players under control.

I know clout will instantly jump in here about 'who do you know what the budget is' but if the Phils resign JRoll at 4 yrs/~$14M, there payroll and this team starting '14 is likely going to be a rough spot where they aren't competitive enough to be a playoff contender. They will have $75-80M alone committed to just 4 players (Howard/JRoll/Lee/Papelbon). Add Hamels/Halladay at $20M, that's over $100M.

Basically, it comes to done to this. The Phils either sign Halladay or Hamels through the '14 and '15 seasons. They won't sign both for $20M+ and have nearly $65M invested in just 3 starters (Lee/Halladay/Hamels).

Take your pick - would you rather have Halladay through '14 and '15 or Hamels?

Cole for Castro? Interesting. No way cubs do that though.

With Cole a year away from FA, people are really overestimating how much teams would be willing to trade for him.

If anything the last several years has shown, it is that pending FA who are only control for a year or less simply don't get you that much in return.

Phils would get the pu pu platter they got for Lee but I don't really know how much better they really could do.

If you are a team trading for him, why give up 3 or 4 prospects and then have to resign him at $20M/annually on his next deal. I would just wait for the upcoming offseason and take my chances.

To be honest, I am actually pretty leery of Gio Gonzalez, as I am of all A's pitchers. Not leery in the sense that I think he sucks. But leery in the sense that I wouldn't exactly be brimming with confidence that he could be the same pitcher in CB Park as he has been at Oakland Coliseum. Like most A's pitchers, he has been substantially worse on the road. Doesn't necesarily mean his overall numbers are misleading; Blanton also had the same issue in Oakland, yet has been much the same pitcher in Philly as he was in Oakland. But it's still a red flag. The other red flag is that, as good as his stuff is, his walk rate remains terrible. He actually led the AL in walks last year.

It goes without saying that I'd like to have him but not at the cost of cleaning out the few remaining prospects in our system. And -- going with the running theme -- if the plan were to acquire Gio & move Cole, it would be a substantial downgrade.

Fran: I really don't see the Cubs parting with Starlin Castro for anyone, especially for a 1 year rental. FWIW, Klaw just ranked him as the 6th best player in MLB under 25 between Clayton Kershaw and Eric Hosmer. He's 21 and led the NL in hits.

"With Cole a year away from FA, people are really overestimating how much teams would be willing to trade for him."

Agreed. The notion that the Cubs would trade Stalin Castro for one year of Cole Hamels is pretty zany.

MG-- That's a tough question.. I might answer Cole due to age.. As an aside, remember the days when the question was "Should we keep Charles Hudson or Randy Lerch?" Don't miss THOSE alternatives lol

Er . . . Starlin Castro, not Stalin Castro. When he first came up, someone on Beerleaguer once referred to him as Stalin Castro. I found the malapropism so amusing that I've been calling him that ever since.

In regards to the Garcia trade:

'This deal keeps getting worse all the time' Going to go down as one of the worst all-time trades in franchise history. Not quite as bad as say trading Fergie Jenkins in '66 but certainly up there.

Traded 1 win for 89 wins and counting (Floyd is 51-50 since he left the Phils; Gio is 38-32).

At that point, I might rather have Hamels. Next 2 years, Halladay.

Salisbury on WIP, just stated that the Phillies have talked to Athletics, and that the A's like a few of the Phillies prospects. He stated that the Phils think that it will be too difficult to re-sign Hamels. Basically just doing their due diligence on everything.

Why does Gio mean a trade for Hamels? Could he be a cost controlled replacement for Oswalt?

I'd rather see Gio/ Worley as 4/5 then Worley/ Kendrick.

Here's the deals... You heard it here first!

Dom, Worley, Mayberry for Gio

Hamels and Polly to Florida for Hanley, Morrison, Volstad.

Sign Aramis to play third.

Now that would be the blockbuster we have come to expect from Ruben.

BB - Me too. Halladay's option for $20M in '14 vests with 225 IP in 2013, 415 IP in 2012-2013 and player not on DL at end of 2013 but do the Phils really want to spend $20M on a 37-year old starter in '14?

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