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Friday, November 11, 2011

Comments

Jack: Lidge "circa summer of 2008" was still not even close to Papelbon as far as "elite closers" go. So that analogy doesn't really work.

Another poster referred to him as a "douchebag." How about we don't just rely on the image presented to us by the national media? I've watched a lot of Red Sox games and I have friends in that area and of the team in general. They've said he is a competitive guy and that gets mixed in with a bad temperament sometimes. The "douchiest" thing he does is that he can be very slow to the plate at times.

On the deal itself. I don't know what to think. People were losing their minds over 4 years/44 million for Madson so this will not help that. Three years may have been better but again, with free agency, sometimes you have to go an extra year or give more money to get the guy you want. The one positive to the deal for me is that we will net a pick when Madson signs elsewhere. So maybe in 2019 there is some guy burning through the farm system ready to come help.

If nothing else, this proves that the Madson deal didn't fall apart because ownership nixed it.

What I suspect happened is something like the following. The Phillies wanted Madson. They offered 4 years, $44M and were given to believe it was a done deal. Boras then turned around and used their offer to raise the bidding among other teams. The Phils said, "We don't want to deal with this BS," and decided to go after Papelbon.

Same age as Madson, but 200 less major league innings.

Now that we're splitting hairs, Truth Injection, I might maintain that the douchiest thing the guy has done was the highly suspect Riverdance in tights thing..on the freakin' field. I don't like the Red Sox and didn't like Papelsmear before that and it was still uncomfortable to watch.

In his final four appearances - all must-wins for Boston - Papelbon was scored upon three times and blew two saves, including the nail-in-the-coffin on the season's final day ...

He also blew a Save a took a Loss to end Boston's season the last time they made the playoffs ('09 ALDS).

It'll also be interesting -- & by "interesting" I mean "disastrous" -- to see how he responds to constant use. With Charlie in the dugout Papelbon might easily see his yearly ~65-70 IP become ~80-85 IP.

Whatever. This is a classic r00b deal: too many years, too much money & of questionable necessity. The Phillies don't need Saves, they need XBHs.

from a fan's (not from best, strategic move) perspective, i'd rather have Madson. Not going to be easy rooting for this guy. I like Madson, his stuff, and that he's been a Phil for life. I watched him give up 9 runs in the first inning as a failed starter in 2006, and then turn into an elite relief pitcher for one of baseball's elite teams (43 / 10 K/BB ratio in the postseason in 35 IP).

I know to take the NL Yankees, fantasy baseball attitude about this is debbie-downerish and spoiled of me, but there it is. Plus Papelbon is not exactly easy to root for. No thanks.

I don't know much about Papelbon, but I know that he's slow.

I recall watching Baseball Tonight this season while they discussed a late-season Red Sox/Yankees game as it happened. They took a regular commercial break with Papelbon on the mound in the middle of the 9th and when they'd come back they'd only missed two pitches! (to the same batter, and neither one hit into play)

I'm not looking forward to that at all, but I supposed I'll get over it if he gets the job done.

BAP- I like your scenerio...it alows me to direct my anger at Boras not Amaro.

Quick question, if we sign Papelbon and Cuddyear those are both type A free agents. Are we set to get some back for Oswalt and/or Madson?

I heard on the radio 4 years and close to 50 million.

Slocs: Probably not with Oswalt unless he signs before December 1st, because I'd be shocked if we offered him arbitration.

Stupid, stupid, stupid deal. I would infinitely have preferred to see this money go towards the holes at shortstop, left field, and first base (I'm not buying the Howard-back-by-April stuff). We need to upgrade the offense, not "lock down" the ninth inning. With Aumont, De Fratus, and so many other young, potential impact arms in the minors, it makes zero sense to lock down the closing spot for so many years. Now look for the rest of the roster to be filled out with Min-Mart and Orr clones--there can't be much loot left in the tank after this one.

Slocs: If you offer Oswalt and Madson arbitration, and both decline to sign elsewhere you would get 4 picks back.

You get the signing teams first (or second) round pick and an additional sandwich round pick.

I didn't realize the Phillies were done making off season moves and that this move precludes all other moves regarding the offense (LF, and SS, Bench/1b)...

Based on the chatter it seems Ruben packed up his checkbook and headed for Clearwater...

By the way, more sucky new--Carroll is going to the Twins. There's one potentially valuable infielder gone already, while Rube the Boob plays the "fix what ain't broke" game.

I'm drawing a blank and am sure you guys will have an answer.

Outside of Mo Rivera, has any reliever in the history of baseball signed a deal worth +$20M in total and actually lived up their salary over the entire duration of the contract?

I can't think of 1 single player.

4 years 50 million with a vesting option that cold bring it to 60 million

"4 years 50 million with a vesting option that cold bring it to 60 million"

Ugh. I do think bap is right and that Boras tried to use the Phils for additional leverage after the 4/$44M deal was disclosed publicly & that f@cking pissed off Amaro regally. Can't imagine Amaro being a guy who continues negotiations if he feels slighted.

I'd personally rather have Madson, but I don't have any major problem with this. I'm just glad these are the kind of discussions we have these days, as opposed to whether Mike Easler was a good signing.

Finally able to report in after undergoing extensive therapy. Nothing much to say except this isn't a downgrade, and is probably an upgrade, and if the $s are correct we got him for only a smidge more than we would have spent on Madson.

Good move by a big market team that we are.

In case you were wondering, this is the biggest contract ever for a reliever. The last one this big was the 5-year, $47 million deal the Jays gave to B.J. Ryan. Papelbon's AAV, $12.5 million, would be tied for second-highest ever, tying Lidge's deal over the last three years.

No, I don't know why anyone would be concerned about big deals for closers. They always seem to work out great.

I'd have rather them re-signed Madson, bur the "truth" of the matter is they brought the guy in who wanted to be here, not talking anything away from Madson or what he accomplished while he was here.

We don't really know what happened between Madson & the Phils, and it could have been a problem with Boras. We all know how he is.

They didn't get Madson, so they git the next best guy. It was going to cost a lot no matter whom they signed. I'm ok with it.

As far as Carroll, glad he going somewhre else. We don't need a 37-year old infielder on a multi-year deal.

I think it is a good deal because you will wait months before Boras would agree to a contract and by then, all of the closers are gone. Get it while the getting is good!!!
Papelbon has consistency in saves over 6 years. Madson, while good in 2011, and a fan favorite, has had 1 good year.
There are just so many pros and cons that you have to go by history of Boras and the history of Papelbon over 6 years.

I blame NEPP for submarining the Madson deal.

retired jim: that is a Boras tactic, to wait till the market gets thin and force a team's hand.

Objectively, Papelbon is better than Madson. It's really not much of a debate. The real issue is just that giving this much money to a closer is never cost-effective.

Be very careful. As a life long Bosox fan, I will not be sad to see Pap leave. Forget his ERA. Look at his results w inherited runners = bad. He "throws" 90% of the time rather than pitches. Not unusual for him to throw 10-15 consecutive fastballs. Too bad b/c he has some good other pitches. He thinks he is King Kong. Total airhead.

Madson as a 11 million dollar set up man. Not my money. Let's do this!

He better pick a new entrance song

Bet Albert and Prince like this.
Raj only 4 years?

what does an inherited runner stat have to do with a closer?

I am glad that they got the best on market. Listen we all as phille fans wanted our hometown player back. That being said it was extremely important to get a shut down closer. Given the fact that we still have last time I checked 3 really good starting pitchers. The closer situation was a dire need that needed to be addressed. I know boras wanted to run price up and price Ryan higher. And I really believe rube got pissed and moved on. Sure pap was leaking a little oil last sept,but he did pitch alot and I saw one game was over two innings. I really can't wait to see that stare down and just the intensity that he will bring to team. As all the young pieces start to fill in pen this pen will be good and young for a while

Good signing...Papelbon>>Madson

Can't imagine Amaro being a guy who continues negotiations if he feels slighted.

r00b can't see the forest for his own ego. I knew we were doomed the minute he started going on about the need for a "veteran Closer". Still, even I didn't think it would be this bad. But hey, why bother trying to find & develop "toolsy" players when you just can go on out & sign an actual tool, right?

NEPP - even considering the dollars and years committed?

Chris, the years/money are close enough to the Madson deal for me to rather have the better player of the two...and that's what Papelbon is overall. Its close but Papelbon is the better pitcher.

Besides, we have no idea what their budget is this year so obviously ownership is okay with spending like this.

***What I suspect happened is something like the following. The Phillies wanted Madson. They offered 4 years, $44M and were given to believe it was a done deal. Boras then turned around and used their offer to raise the bidding among other teams. The Phils said, "We don't want to deal with this BS," and decided to go after Papelbon.***

Are you some sort of wizard?!? How could you know how Boras works like that?!?


100% agree that's exactly what's happened here. No chance that Boras wouldn't shop around a Phillies offer like that.

My first thought is that the Phillies have lost their minds.

My first thought is that Rube was gonna pay top dollar for SOME closer.

Thus, it might as well be Papelbon...who admittedly is as dense as a cart full of bricks.

Hopefully Chooch will work with him on pitch selection.

NEPP has to be doing a parody at this point. If not he has lost his mind.

Sorry TTI...I just would rather have the better player if we're gonna spend like that.

Papelbon will solve the "2 hour game" problem. The Aces work way too fast, hurting beer sales at CBP. Papelbon is a human rain delay.

I'd rather have a better player, too. One who's not a "Closer". The Phillies managed to win 90+, 95+ & 100+ Regular Season games w/out anything even remotely resembling stability in that area, nor have their increasingly early Postseason exits had anything to do w/ the same. It's a complete waste.

I'd rather spend money elsewhere but Rube was determined to get a veteran closer. In that very narrow POV, I'd rather we get the best "veteran closer" available. Now we just have to have Boston sign Madson so we can trade 1st round picks.

With the Phillies' history of first round picks, maybe they'd be better off if a bottom rung team signs Madson. The second round is cheaper.

I can't tell you how much I hate this move. Amaro is proving to be exactly what we all expected before he made some good moves. A complete and total dunce. He's busy undoing all the good will from signing Halladay and Lee and Pence.

you have a gm and owners willing to spend,and all you read is whining,hes a elite closer for a elite team

I get that teams have budgets and that every significant contract has trickle-down consequences on the team's flexibility to fill other needs. We all get it. Even clout gets it, though he sometimes pretends not to.

And I've never been shy about criticizing the FO when it gives out overly long contracts to players who are ancient (Ibanez, Contreras, Moyer), declining (Howard, Polanco), or just plain crappy (Romero, Juan Castro, Pedro Feliz). But Papelbon isn't particularly old, he isn't declining, and he's certainly one of the best relievers in baseball. At some point, I cease to understand the endless consternation over ownership's finances, or about how a particular move will play out in 2015 when we have no idea what the composition of the team will look like.

I mean, I guess we could trade away every player over 32, and rebuild around a core of inexpensive, 20-something year-olds like Pence, Mayberry, Kendrick, Galvis, Francisco, Stutes, Schwimer, Savery, Dom, Diekman, Mini-Mart, Bowker, and Rizzotti. I suspect we probably wouldn't be too good next year, but think of all the salary flexibility we would have in 2015.

We got one of the best relievers in baseball and we're paying him a steep price. I find it hard to relate to the mindset that sees this as a bad thing.

There are reasons to dislike this deal that are not dumb, like "He's a douchebag" and "Rube has an ego."

For starters, Madson has been better than Papelbon two seasons in a row. You can start there.

From Heyman:

Papelbon deal is $50M guaranteed for 4. Hear the 5th-yr vest is "easy" too.

From Stark:

Now hearing Papelbon's deal with Phillies will include a vesting option. If exercised, would make total package worth more than $60 million.

$60 million...over 5 years...

David Murphy has a good take on this. Especially this part:

"Madson gives up fewer fly balls, fewer extra base hits, and fewer line drives. Compare all the numbers outside of saves, and you can argue that Madson has been the better pitcher over the last three seasons"

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillies/Phillies-take-risk-with-Papelbon.html

"Papelbon will solve the "2 hour game" problem. The Aces work way too fast, hurting beer sales at CBP. Papelbon is a human rain delay."

Unfortunately beer sales end after the 7th.

In what way was Madson better than Papelbon in 2011?

SO/9
Madson: 9.2
Papelbon: 12.2

BB/9
Madson: 2.4
Papelbon: 1.4

H/9
Madson: 8.0
Papelbon: 7.0

WHIP
Madson: 1.154
Papelbon: 0.994

Other than ERA...a stat pretty meaningless when it comes to relievers, Papelbon was by far the better pitcher.

***Madson gives up fewer fly balls, fewer extra base hits, and fewer line drives. ***

2011 OPS against
Madson: .593
Papelbon: .546


Huh?

Papelbon had 2 bad blown saves in 2010 that inflate his numbers (4 HR, 7 ER in 2 G, 1 IP)

Other than that, he's been an elite closer his entire career.

Ok, I have to say I never thought any deal like this would occur this week but I am glad something knocks the Penn State disgracefulness off the radio and TV for 10 minutes.

Here's a trip down memory lane. On Tuesday news broke that we were close with Madson for 4 years, 44 million:

4 years Rube?!?

What a shock that Rube gave at least 1 more year than he should have with a FA contract.

That's so out of character for him.

Posted by: NEPP | Tuesday, November 08, 2011 at 06:15 PM

_________________________________________

Ridiculous overpay if true.

Stupid, stupid, stupid by Rube where he once again gives extra years and $$ to "his" guy.

Honestly, its beginning to look like Rube isn't a very good GM.

Posted by: NEPP | Tuesday, November 08, 2011 at 06:22 PM


_________________________________________

No, it affects them filling other needs when they overpay for guys like this.

Its almost as if they have a finite amount of money to spend and some of us realize that they might want to use it more wisely than giving a closer this much.

Posted by: NEPP | Tuesday, November 08, 2011 at 06:32 PM


____________________________________________

There were other options and zero need to set the market. We could have been patient and then come up with a deal to Madson or Papelbon, etc.

Rube just likes to make a big splash and strike early.

Posted by: NEPP | Tuesday, November 08, 2011 at 06:46 PM


_________________________________________

I bet they end up spending around $170-180 million. Based on recent revenue increases and a max out of their potential revenue sources, that is probably accurate.


Posted by: NEPP | Tuesday, November 08, 2011 at 07:00 PM

__________________________________________

Next year is Madson's Age 31 season.


Pretty much my biggest issue with it. 3 years, $33 million would have been a much better deal. 4 years is a long time...especially for a relief pitcher.

Posted by: NEPP | Tuesday, November 08, 2011 at 08:39 PM

__________________________________________

Its not so much the upfront cash as it is the length of the deal to a 31 year old reliever.

Posted by: NEPP | Tuesday, November 08, 2011 at 08:48 PM

__________________________________________

I wasnt arguing that Madson wasn't an elite reliever...I'm arguing that the contract is excessive.

Which I think it is as it is 4, possibly 5 years in length.

Posted by: NEPP | Tuesday, November 08, 2011 at 08:52 PM


_________________________________________

There have been plenty of effective closers after Age 30 but few that have gone 4 straight elite years as there are simply very few closers that are consistenly elite period.

Posted by: NEPP | Tuesday, November 08, 2011 at 09:09 PM

___________________________________________


A couple million here, a couple million there...pretty soon you're talking real money.

Posted by: NEPP | Wednesday, November 09, 2011 at 11:37 AM

_______________________________________

Now firstly, I will say that NEPP advocated Papelbon over Madson throughout his posts and never wavered in saying that Papelbon was better.

Still though- 4 years, 44 million (with the possibility of a 5th year) is entirely too much money to pay to a closer who is 30+ because closers over 30 don't usually put together 4 straight good years. Also, when you spend a little more money all the time it adds up in the end and it prevents you from filling other needs your team may have. In the end it means maybe you're not a good GM.

But if you can sign a closer who is 30+ years old for 4 years, 50 million (with the possibility of a 6th year) well- we'll let that slide because one may be a little better than the other. I mean really what is 1.5 million a year for the next four years. It's only a little bit extra money and that doesn't catch up to you right?

(None of this should be taken as my opinion on the deal necessarily. I think the choice between Madson and Papelbon is closer than some others do. I just like pointing out hypocrisy in statements.)

Either is too much money...but if we were gonna spend, you might as well get the best.

Dont get why that's hard to understand.

If I were GM, I wouldnt have gotten either pitcher but I'm not. If Rube was determined to get a "Top" closer, I'd rather he get the best available.

And, as for relievers having a high rate of burn-out at an early age, my answer is: except for the ones who don't. Like Mariano Rivera. And Trevor Hoffman. And Billy Wagner. And Dennis Eckersly. And Brian Fuentes. And Francisco Cordero.

From a sheer numbers standpoint, it's true that most relievers burn out at a young age. But it's not like Papelbon is some random reliever whose name we plucked out of a hat. He has pinpoint control -- an attribute that few relievers have. And he has begun his career with 6.5 dominant seasons in succcession -- something few other relievers have ever been able to claim. Obviously, it's always possible that Papelbon will get injured, or flame out at a young age like Brad Lidge or Jonathan Broxton or B.J. Ryan. But I don't see much in the players' respective history to think that any of those 3 represent good "comps" to Papelbon.

Comparable Pitchers through Age 30:

Papelbon:
1. Bryan Harvey
2. Trevor Hoffman
3. Mo Rivera
4. Jeff Montgomery
5. Billy Wagner

Decent company.

NEPP: In your mind there is a huge chasm of difference between Madson and Papelbon. There really isn't. You can make a case for either one being better than the other. But you lost your mind over the Madson deal and now are okay with the Papelbon deal even though it is for more money and the same amount of years.

You're not even close to being consistent here with your arguments. Re-read the things you typed again- maybe you don't see the irony.

To be clear on my opinion: I'm not advocating for one guy over the other. I'm saying that normally, when you have two guys that are fairly close talent wise normally you try to take the one that comes cheaper.

Con: Now we have to see Papelbon's stupid little look-mom-aren't-I-intense? scrunchy-face all of the time.

I've always liked Madson, but I'm thrilled to see Papelbon in a Phils uniform.

bay_area_phan: I mean, I guess we could trade away every player over 32, and rebuild around a core of inexpensive, 20-something year-olds


The Phillies could be the Menudo of baseball. You reach 32 and we replace you with Ricky Martin.

***NEPP: In your mind there is a huge chasm of difference between Madson and Papelbon. There really isn't. You can make a case for either one being better than the other. But you lost your mind over the Madson deal and now are okay with the Papelbon deal even though it is for more money and the same amount of years.***

Despite the prevailing wisdom here on BL, there is a chasm between Papelbon and Madson. Papelbon has been year in and year out an elite closer...probably the best closer in baseball not named Mo Rivera since he broke in.

Madson is a great reliever and can be an elite closer but his numbers across the board aren't quite as good. Papelbon has better stuff, higher SO rates, lower BB rates and great control. He rarely has the control issues that Madson is sometimes prone too. Despite the complaints about Papelbon's flyball rate, he doesnt give up more HRs than Madson and balls can fly out of Fenway. Papelbon has done all this while pitching as The Man for a top club in what has been the toughest division in baseball his entire career.

So...if Rube NEEDS to spend big on a closer, I'd rather he get the better option. Also, it seems that Madson/Boras were the ones shopping the offer around so its not as if that $44 million was set in stone. Boras was likely looking for more.

"I am glad something knocks the Penn State disgracefulness off the radio and TV for 10 minutes."

I'm currently on another continent but am glad to hear that the disgraceful behavior of the entire PSU hierarchy is getting attention on radio and TV. I don't know how a bunch of them can look at themselves in a mirror.

***I don't know how a bunch of them can look at themselves in a mirror.***

At first they couldnt but eventually the weight of the controversy weighed down on them much like that of a 6'1" man holding down a 10 year old boy. Eventually they just laid there and took it with no struggle.

Fire them all, disband the program and move on with life. Fvck PSU and fvck the Board of Trustees.

I think the good think here is this is a guy who won't sh8t his pants closing in Phila.

So, anyway, when does the cavalry arrive to fix the offense?

Probably next Friday. Hey, Mini-Mart is hitting .077 in the Dominican League.

I like Papelbon but hate giving him 50 mil...I really wish I had the talent to close...its ridiculous how much these guys get paid

NEPP: Look. I;m not a huge advocate of Papelbon over Madson or vice versa. I said that the one advantage Papelbon had was that he has been doing this longer so he has a more pronounced body of work. But in the end, I think both are very good closers and have good stuff.

However, I do find a little douchey on your part to freak out because we give out a deal for 4 years, 44 million but are completely fine with 4 years, and 50 million. If you had said after the Madson deal was announced, "I don't like Madson." "I'd rather have Papelbon," etc that would have been one thing.

but no, you outlined this was a bad move and said that spending a little more money here and there was a bad idea. I feel bad that the public school system has failed you so badly but 50 million is more than 44 million. 6 million more to be exact.

I think it's humorous though that with your hypocrisy laid out for people to see you still clutch tightly to your beliefs. There is a silly sort of honor in that.

No...I've just accepted the fact that Rube needs to spend big on a closer.

Dont get why that's hard to understand. Do I agree with it? Nope but I accept it.

Bowlcut: If Ricky Martin could hit left handed pitching i'd sign him up in a heartbeat ;-)

Papelbon is the better pitcher. Stats show that. Also, think about the lineups he's faced in the AL East compared to that Madson has. Papelbon has been great in the closer's role. Not many have ever been better than him over an extended period of time.

Since his rookie year in 2005, Papelbon is 2nd in WAR for all relievers...#1 is obviously Mo Rivera:

1. Mo Rivera - 17.1
2. J. Papelbon - 14.9
3. Joe Nathan - 12.0
4. F. Rodriguez - 11.4
5. R. Betancourt - 10.8
..
..
..
18. R. Madson - 7.1

Curt and NEPP,
I concur. Before this I was by no means a Penn State lover or hater. I met Joe Paterno twice via family friends who went there and donated to the school over the years and he seemed like a nice guy. I really could give a sh8t about the school or program but this current mess and the fact they managed to ignore a molester in their midst for so long makes me so sick in my heart for the victims and their families. On the other hand I now hate all of the people who are in charge of anything in the loop on this (including the janitors and anybody in the food chain who could have blown a whistle). The students who acted like JoePa is set for sainthood this weekend and tried to defend him by surrounding him and destroying a news van are f8cking absurd.
But I really need to turn off the sports and stuff when I hear about the details. It makes me sick.

So I guess we can now assume Carson has backed off his initial reaction to the Madson deal as well.

His reaction was "Why did we do that? We should've signed Joe Nathan and used the difference on offense."

I'm on record as rather having Madson than Papelbon.

That said, it's worth looking at the career stats:

Papelbon:
ERA+ 197 WHIP 1.018 H/9 6.8 HR/9 0.6 BB/9 2.4 K/9 10.7

Madson:
ERA+ 123 WHIP 1.294 H/9 8.9 HR/9 0.9 BB/9 2.7 K/9 7.8

Even pulling out Madson's 17 starts, it's still a pretty wide gap.

Don't approve for all the usual reasons -- and I suppose, additionally, because I like homegrown Madson and dislike from this distance Papelbon. Already my red sox fan friend has re-sent me the email in which I gloated over Paps' particular misfortune on the last day of the regular season.

On a brighter note, now Heather won't have that hussy Sarah Madson to kick around anymore.

clout, its a HUGE gap over their respective careers. Its like comparing Howard to Pujols.

you have a gm and owners willing to spend,and all you read is whining,hes a elite closer for a elite team ...

... which hasn't needed an "elite closer" to get to the Postseason, & has no use for one once there 'cause they can't score enough Runs to take a lead.

Though it should be noted that we wouldnt have won in 2008 without an elite closer.

Papelbon is a better reliever than Madson and the additional money ($6M over 4 years) is minor.

Papelbon also has never been on the DL in his professional or minor league career too while pitching in a tougher league.

Still dislike this deal for several reasons (length & dollars, likelihood it prevents the Phils from fulfilling a few other things I thought they needed to do more this offseason, etc) and would have rather seen them overpay for Reyes if they were going to overpay for somebody.

Amaro identifies a need and goes after it with bulldog-like determination even if it means paying a king's ransom & likely has some real downside on the back-end to it.

Because no alternatives (except of the moronic variety) are offered, a lot of the whining here boils down to this: Ballplayers make too damn much money.

I agree, but that's not very profound.

There biggest needs this offseason were to figure out who plays SS everyday and a need to supplement the offense with Howard's injury & real possibility he might not be a meaingful contributor in '12.

Curious to see how Amaro fills either one of these with the remaining offseason after blowing a decent portion of his available funds on signing Papelbon.

Nobody argues that Papelbon is the better pitcher, correct?

That said, if money is no issue which has been the argument given me...we got the right guy.

NEPP: It's still putting the cart far ahead of the horse. 1B, 3B, SS & a serviceable stand in for the inevitable Victorino & Chooch injury stints are all more important. Not to say r00b won't address those, but we're bound to be underwhelmed by the manner in which he does so. The GM is good for one "name" move per offseason, & he wasted it on 4 YEARS for a f*cking Closer? It's a joke.

GTown, I agree...but that was never an option for Rube. He said he wanted a "Veteran Closer" so that's what we were shopping for.

Now we'll go sign Derrick Lee for a couple million, bring in a guy like Furcal on the cheap and get a cheap 4th OF and call it a day.

Mini Mart and Exxon will be back on the bench next year and one of them will get at least 400 PA due to injuries.

Your plan was never on the table.

Basically, I'm at the acceptance phase of victimhood.

Hard to argue that closer is more important than a shortstop, but maybe Rube and J-Roll are already on the same page.

Maybe...stranger things have happened. Maybe Jimmy has looked at his offers, found them wanting and would rather stay in Philly on a reasonable deal. Its not as if he's poor. He's made quite a bit of money in his career.

clout - Why it is moronic to suggest having signed Nathan/Cordero at say half of what Papelbon will earn next year will signing another veteran arm or two to supplement the depth in the bullpen including bringing in a veteran lefty situational reliever?

What is going to be interesting now is to see how Amaro rounds out the rest of the depth in the bullpen. It was a bullpen that had depth issues nearly the entire 2nd half of the last year.

With the Papelbon signing, I imagine the Phils are going to count on some of their arms including the likes of Savery/De Fratus to round out the pen.

clout - That is why I am surprised by this because you (rightly so) always assert how important an everyday SS is to the team.

Don't get me wrong. Having a reliable closer is important especially in the postseason. Just don't think it is as important for this team given their other needs including at SS.

Dave - I generally agree with you & NEPP. This move likely ensures the Phils will be top-heavy again with little-to-no depth next year on the bench and the bullpen again.

Should put Howard up for trade, take the best you could get...eat a portion of his salary and gone after Pujols. This was a waste of $$$. Nuff said.

NEPP: I'm still rage, raging against the dying of the light.

Contreras will be back next year...no bullpen issues at all:

Papelbon
Contreras
Bastardo
Herndon
Stutes
??
??
Figure on DeFratus, Schwimer, Savery etc getting long looks in ST too.

Wait, that's a pretty weak bullpen if anyone good goes down.

Still, its mid-November so Rube has a TON of time to figure it out.

This is a great move. I think they wanted papelbon the whole time just thought they would be priced out. Then they saw that it would cost only a little more they struck a deal. Papelbon is an upgrade by far.

Maybe Papelbon's agent saw the Madson rumor and called the Phillies saying "Hey, you can have Jonathan for a little bit more you know...and he'd love to play in Philly".

MG: you can do some things with 6 million dollars. That you could argue is the difference between guys at 2 spots on the roster.

I don't care what the Phillies spend on their roster BTW. It's their money, not mine.

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