Part of CSNPhilly.com


« Papelbon over Madson: Some pros and cons | Main | Amaro speaks: No progress on addition of bat »

Monday, November 14, 2011

Comments

Michael Martinez is horrible. He doesn't deserve to be a MLB player. Still sickens me the Phils carried him on the roster all season long, when they clearly needed a stronger bench.

2 for 24 = .08333. MM is in new territory. Is there a name a la "Mendoza" for hitting below .100??? Should we call it the Martinez Line?

Hey as of right now, Mini-Mart is the number 2 shortstop!

Any guesses about who the six teams who've made offers to Rollins are?

Papelbon press conference didn't get a whole lot of attention on CSN.

One of those offers to rollins is the philles, and 3 of the other 5 are likely bullshit invented by his agent to get rube to overpay.

I believe MM has three errors in limited action to compliment his big bat.

Vanimal was a very long shot to win the ROY. Still, finishing 3rd ain't bad. He had a great season and far exceeded expecations.

If he can hold down the #4 slot next season and put up and ERA of somehere between 3.50 and 4.00, and pitch 180+ innings (he pitched 182.1 between MLB and AAA), he'll be a reliable #4 on the Phillies (#3 anywhere else).

$50 million ... plus $58 more. To match his uniform number.

Papelbon is a douchebag.

Maybe we can start a fund to get MM kidnapped?
Seriously, I think Cholly will hold MM back to be Thome's designated pinch-runner, keeping him from getting too many AB's.

I see where there is still talk about moving Houston to the Al and forming two 15 team leagues. This sounds like the dumbest idea coming down the pike. I always knew that Commish Bud Selig was a idiot. This confirms it.

From NBC's Hardball Talk: "Papelbon’s contract also includes a $13 million option for 2016 that vests if he has 55 games finished in 2015 or a total of 100 games finished between 2014 and 2015. In other words, if he stays healthy and remains a closer it would become a five-year, $63 million deal."

If the Phillies like him in the 4th year, they'll pitch him, if not, he becomes the 25th roster clogger sitting on the bullpen bench during 2014.

Always bad at math, I meant in 2015.

Don't like the Papelbon signing. Having said that, I hate everything Boston.

Good effort by Vanimal.


6 teams? Not a chance in hell of Jimmy returning to Philly.

"Seriously, I think Cholly will hold MM back to be Thome's designated pinch-runner, keeping him from getting too many AB's."

Personally, I'd like to see him held back to AAA where, even there, he's mediocre at best. But, I know how the Phils view those Rule 5 guys. God forbid you put up with him for a year to keep him, then stash him in a more appropriate level.

I'd be curious if the Mets were one of those 6 teams.

I hated Papelbon but nowhere near as much as I hated Pedro. Now I love Pedro. I expect the same for Papelbon after he strikes out the final batter of the season to help win the WFC.

If they cut Mini Mart and then got his visa pulled so he had to stay in the Dominican, I'd be okay with that.

Goody,
I have some contacts down there. I was thinking the same thing. It will probably cost us something like $60 and a 1979 Datsun pickup transmission.

jonmorosi Jon Morosi
Sources: #Mariners willing to eat money to trade Chone Figgins. They hope to engage #Reds, #Tigers, #SFGiants.

Any interest from the Phillies????? I would think so if the Mariners eat a significant portion of the contract. he has 2 years and $17 million left with a $9 mil vesting option for 2014 with 600 PA. MLBTR suggests Mariners would be willing to eat up to $15 million. Chone Figgins at a MAX $11 for 3 years seems like a good deal even if he is just a bench guy to fill in for Utley and Polly when they eventually get hurt.

The mariners are willing to eat about 15 + million dollars of a 26 million dollar contract for the next two years for Chone Figgins, according to MLB Trade Rumors (11 million left on the contract for all of you that are bad at math out there)
What do you guys think?

DO you think they would take Tyson Gillies back??? lol

Our new SS. Soon to be posted. Hiruyoki Nakajima.
His description makes him a perfect Jimmy replacement.

"Currently the No. 3 hitter in the Lions lineup,[20] Nakajima is an aggressive hitter that likes to swing early in the count, drawing few walks (though he has improved in this regard in the last few seasons) but often being hit by pitches. He is a spray hitter with legitimate opposite-field power and good speed on the basepaths.

Although he has occasionally manned third base during his professional career, Nakajima's primary position for the Lions is shortstop, relying on his great athleticism and excellent throwing arm to make highlight-reel plays. While he has been known to be somewhat sloppy at times, particularly on the throwing end, he has made strides in his glovework and won the Golden Glove award at shortstop for the first time in 2008."

They have Gold Gloves in Japan?

Too funny.

Actually Jimmy edged him out in 09 for best SS in tournament .

RG, does he possess an innate ability to pop out early in the count at the most inopportune times? What about his intangibles and clubhouse leadership?

What happened to Chone Figgins?? Didn't he have a pretty good 2009? I recall there being a reasonable argument for signing him over Polanco that offseason, and now they're willing to eat $$ to get rid of him. Is he that bad that we don't want him?

Brett: He's so bad that Seattle area bars were tying the price of pitchers of beer to Figgins' BA. As in, "Chone's hitting .174, so pitchers are $1.74 tonight!" In my opinion the guy overachieved at exactly the right time: his FA year. I don't believe the Phillies will express any interest.

Please, please, please, no more talk about Figgins. Anyone who comes from a family that spells Shawn, Sean or Shaun "C-h-o-n-e is doomed to mediocrity. He has failed his enormously bloated free-agent contract as egregiously as a certain catcher From Detroit who signed with the Phillies two decades ago.

@G-Town: I'm with you most of the time, but part company with you re Papelbon. Do you despise him or his contract? If it's the latter, then criticize the Phillies, his agent, or professional sports in general. If it's the pitcher, how can you argue with his body of work over the past six seasons?

He has been the best in all of baseball. Because of where I live, I see the Red Sox a lot and the man has saved their asses countless times with not just his fastball, but his secondary stuff that he throws in occasionally to set it up. He has never been on the DL, he's a competitor and a better closer over time than Madson.

Madson has less than a full season as a closer and there is no assurance that he has what it takes to dominate over a lengthy contract, which he too will get.

Let's see how this plays out before sounding the alarm, or whatever it is that you deride.

The sentiment has probably been over-expressed by now, but this Papelbon signing makes me feel pretty damned queasy. Of course, if he unexpectedly inspires the Phils to a championship, great, I'll dislike the signing a little less. But as of now, I keep thinking, "Who the hell is this team?"

Seeing snippets like this doesn't help:

'philaphillies
Papelbon on Phils: "I can't wait to meet the guys and go to war with them." atmlb.com/v7Gkwl'

Being Papelbon, it's as if he's saying, "I can't wait to go to war against this team."

nonamePHame- Would You? hahaha

6 teams making offers to Rollins means 6 teams have contacted him. At least 3 are just putting out feelers if he is a bargain. I'm not worried. He'll probably be back with the Phillies next year.

Nakajima will not be anything close to a power threat in America. He's a 20 homer guy in the NPB and that's less than Tad Iguchi regularly hit while playing there. His speed is also not as great as people say. But he does play short primarily on turf and plays it well. I wouldn't pursue him or really any player posted this year not named Darvish.

Awarding Gold Gloves is one of the many amusing copy cat features of the NPB. They also have a one league play with a DH and one not. And they adopted interleague after the MLB did.

mainerob: I hate everything about this deal. I've covered most of what will follow in prior posts, but I'll recap so you need not go hunting.

First off, signing Papelbon does absolutely nothing to address what I see as the main weaknesses of the ball club, namely the infield (1B, SS & 3B) situation, & the lack of a capable stand in for the fairly inevitable Chooch & Victorio injury stints.

Second, I simply don't believe in the supposed necessity of having a designated "Closer". As I've mentioned before, the Phillies haven't had a consistently healthy, reliable Closer for the past 3 seasons, & that hasn't impacted the team at all.

Third, it's a terrible contract: too many years, too much money.

Fourth, it's a classic r00b move to make a knee-jerk decision on which player he wants, & throw money at the guy w/out even trying to manipulate the market. Say r00b does intend to re-sign J-Roll: how's he gonna get a good deal out of Rollins (or anyone else, for that matter) now that he's locked Papelbon in for so many years & so much money?

Hey, if the Phillies are fine w/ that approach, so be it. But my ticket prices keep going up, the team keeps exiting the Postseason earlier & such an attitude completely belies the popular image of the Phillies' GM as a shrewd deal-maker. When it comes to FAs, he's anything but.

And finally, I don't care for Papelbon, personally or professionally. I feel he's an overrated, overly fastball-dependent head case who continues to benefit greatly from a single (admittedly dominant)'07 Postseason run despite blowing the Save & taking the Loss in the final "must win" game of 2 of the past 3 Red Sox seasons.

In short, I don't see the point. Hell, if the Phillies have unlimited funds to throw around, throw 'em at Pujols. If not, why bother spending so much on what wasn't even near to being a position of dire need? Nothing about this signing makes sense to me. You're free to disagree, of course, but I do not envision this move significantly improving the Phillies' prospects of winning another WFC.

If you don't sign Papelbon you have a weakness at closer.

Even people that like the signing appear to think Papelbon is a douche. I imagine he'll be welcomed with a level of indifference that no all-star FA signing has ever seen.

Bake: You're over thinking things there.

Not if you don't "believe in closers".

Ok, if you don't believe in closers, you still have a hole at "ace reliever". Without a set closer, you still want a star arm in the bullpen, right?

I think the phillies plan on not having an SS this year, which explains why they haven't made a big move to fill that spot this whole offseason!

why is buster olney talking about the phils trading hamels? Luckily I think Amaro has learned his lesson trading away big arms to "replenish" the pharm.

I love it, the Martinez line! I think Jimmy will be back and we'll likely overpay. We tend to do that, overpay (see current roster). I think 3 years and an option year based on health (at bats over last year or last 2 years) is good for the Phillies. As for Cuddyer, I have no problem overpaying him for 2 years, 3 years I start to worry. I would definitely trade Hamels, hell we have Blanton, they are interchangeable right? Actually, I would do my best to sign Hamels to a 3 year +1, +1 contract (like Oswalt had, two option years). Get him locked up so we have him, Roy and Cliff for the next 3 years, with Papelbon we'll be competitive and the ballpark will be full which will help us work out of the Howard contract.

Overpay at SS, CL, 1B, 2B, 3B? Anywhere else?

Has anyone ever seen a picture of Cole out of uniform that wasn't hillarious?

http://twitter.com/?photo_id=1#!/TheHamels/status/136292194934980609/photo/1

Well who cares how they spell his name Chone. His name could be Dingo if he can bat .320 he is on my team. Chone has been one of the biggest bust in recent years. People complain about Polanco. Well at one point there was talk about bringing Dingo Chone over here. Could you imagined if that deal would of took place? The Papelbon signing wont address the other team needs. I sure hope RAJ has a few a few something up his sleeves. Otherwise it will be a early exit out of the playoffs again. I think this dude is still in denial. Still think everyone will bounce back Howard will hit .300 50 HR. Utley will hit .305 and 25 HR's etc etc.

I wonder how many times Hamels said "ya know" during Havana Nights, while looking like a cross between Tony Montoya and Charlie Bodell.

I really wanted Beltre

Much rather have Madson at 44 mil and use the other six mil for a veteran middle reliever or two.

You won't get a vet reliever or two at 6 million over 4 years. I'm no big fan of the signing but the price dif isn't that huge. It's 6 mill over 4 years. That's 2 mill per year. Who are you getting at 2 mill?

6/4=1.5

Not even $2 million...$1.5 million a year is basically Thome's salary for 2012.

Does it matter whether Papelbon is a "douche"? I.E Scott Rolen, Iverson, Terrell Owens.. While they were producing numbers, they were city favorites. Once they failed to be "stars" we suddenly discovered their personality flaws. Point is, they were ALWAYS a**holes. We just ignored this while they were being "great." Give Papelbon a chance to be a douchebag if suddenly or whenever he sucks.

I guess I'm saying is if he amasses 45 saves, the "douchebag" factor becomes inversely related to his 'elite closer' tag.

"I think this dude is still in denial. Still think everyone will bounce back Howard will hit .300 50 HR. Utley will hit .305 and 25 HR's etc etc."

Yeah, I bet this is the case.

I'm surprised no one touched on Heyman's account of the Amaro/Madson/Boras saga. On the one hand, I feel bad for Madson because it sounds like Ruben handled the situation very unprofessionally if he did indeed get cold feet on the deal after verbally agreeing to it.

On the other hand, part of me has no sympathy for Madson, as when he hired Boras as his agent there was a reasonable expectation something like this would happen.

RAJ philosophy:
So much money,so little time
so little time,so much money.

Everybody did the right thing, and ignored Heyman. Guy is an idiot. That whole thing sounds like a Boras creation.

If you dress like that for a charity event, make millions of dollars a year, are married to a piece of a88 like that and live in a fancy condo downtown, you're doing good.

Cole's my favourite Phillie because he doesn't give a cr8p. He puts his puppy in his backpack and does his thing. I hope he never leaves.

Good for Vance. Most here know I'm not high on his future, but he certainly shut me up in 2011!

Free Freddy Galvis!!

Trade Cole Hamels? Silly Buster Olney.

Imagine how strong our system would be if we traded not just Cole but also Doc and Lee?!?

We could be a Top 5 farm system again!!!

Does it matter whether Papelbon is a "douche"? I.E Scott Rolen, Iverson, Terrell Owens.. While they were producing numbers, they were city favorites. Once they failed to be "stars" we suddenly discovered their personality flaws.

One of those is not like the others ... Rolen was still a terrific (like HOF-ish) player when the Phillies traded him.

grandpa - I'm all for Nakajima. And Cespedes. If you're gonna mess up the Luxury tax, mess it up big time.


G-town -
or view it this way:
the guy may be a douchebag
but he's OUR douchebag

"the main weaknesses of the ball club, namely the infield (1B, SS & 3B) situation"

Also, G-town, I'm not sure why you're leaving 2B out of this equation. Utley has not been all that saintly the last couple years and may, actually, be declining as fast as the guys at the other positions.

At the end of the day, if Madson really wanted to stay in Philly, he should not have hired Boras.

Though it should be noted that Boras was also his agent during his last negotation where he stayed in Philly.


From MLBTradeRumors:

Jonathan Papelbon explained how his deal with the Phillies came about: "One day, I finally told [my agent] - I said, 'I want to play for the Phillies and let's make it happen.'" Asked Sunday by Jeff Skversky of WPVI Philadelphia about becoming the richest reliever in baseball, Papelbon said, "That doesn't really play a role. The biggest thing that plays a role is the ability to come here and win."


Yeah, what a douche.

Andy: True, but do you think they're really paying attention to 2b/Utley THIS year? I think if you put that out there, you're likely going to be disappointed this offseason.

Madson hired Boras for his last contract, and that worked out ok.

I have a coworker who is a Red Sox fan having grown up in Boston. He says that Papelbon is the real deal. Hopefully, the Phillies work ethic and good attitude will rub off on Papelbon. I seem to remember when Pedro was here that he remarked about how impressed he was with the Phillies team chemistry.

I would suspect that if Papelbon got out of line that Halladay would go over and whack him on the head a few times until he straightened up. I'm not worried about Papelbon being a "douche". I think there were a lot of personality problems in Boston besides Papelbon. I think he'll work out just fine in Philly.

As a New Englander, I've watched a ton of Sox games too.

Papelbon is an elite closer, case closed. He can locate a high-90s fastball on all corners of the plate and drop a nasty split finger FB to make batters look foolish.

Is he a bit odd? Yeah sure but then most closers have some pretty weird quirks...kinda comes with the territory.

WoW! Papelbon picked us?!? It wasn't about the money at all!?! I feel like the prettiest girl at the ball!

Paplebon should just retire now. He's lost the fanbase.

I think Pap will be fine in our clubhouse. That said, he does sound...eccentric. Apparently, he refers to an alter ego of himself by name. Cinco Ocho, to be exact. (Is that a copy off that football player?) As long as Cinco Ocho can get the save for Halladay, Hamels & Lee, I can live with it. But I'll miss Madson's quieter but joking personality. And his changeup, if Pap's fastball loses MPH.

http://www.csnphilly.com/baseball-philadelphia-phillies/news/Papelbon-Cinco-Ocho-excited-to-join-Phil?blockID=593868&feedID=693

Jbird- Paplebon saying "he picked us" is akin to every free agent (and their agents) saying, "There have been at least 5 clubs calling about ______" (fill in the player). Take that BS with a large grain of salt.

Plus, I want to see how many teammates Papelbon can pull into a Riverdance routine in a WS parade.

(Sounds like a Jib-Jab, doesn't it?)

Better yet, Paplebon should change his name to "Cliff Lee", then everybody will be thrilled that he picked "us".

GBrett Cinco Ocho is the reverse of Ochocinco (aka Chad Johnson)

If you ask me Utley has fallen off fasert than Howard and Rollins but not as fast as Polanco.

Granted we don't ever know the players but I alwasy find deliberately eccentric jocks to be a bit over done and it always comes off as an act. See Brian Wilson, Brian Bosworth and other "look at how funny I am" athletes. JRoll has personality. Papelbon has schtick.

Imagined conversation between RAJ and Jonathan Papelbon's agent:

Agent: My client really wants to play for your team. I mean, he REALLY wants it. He doesn't even care about the money. He just wants to play for the Phillies and he's begging me to, quote, "make it happen."

RAJ: Well, we'd love to have him but, you know, I've got a shortstop vacancy to fill, an ace pitcher to lock up, and an offense that needs some major upgrades. Money's tight.

Agent: Pretty please with sugar on top! It has been Jonathan's life-long dream to play for the Phillies. Just write up a contract -- any contract -- and he'll sign it. He would even be willing to play for free.

RAJ: I'll tell you what. I'll give him 4 years, 50 million dollars, with a vesting option that would take it to 5 years, $63 million. But that's the best I can do. Money's tight.

I bet Papelbon would have come to Philly for two thirds of that contract. After all, it wasn't about the money. He chose us.

What a load of garbage. Cliff Lee got paid. Papelbon got paid. They chose Philly as soon as Ruben opened the owners' wallets and not one second before.

Papelbon - sounds like a designer dog breed. We could have had Mad Dog but ended up with a spade-tailed Papelbon.

Aaaaaaaaaargh! Enough with the whining about overpaying. That's professional sports. If you'd prefer we could be the Pirates or the Royals and be constant basement dwellers. Yes we have holes and it be great if they were addressed but regardless the Phils are most likely going to be competetive and if we make the playoffs anything can happen. I know we all want it all but guess what that isn't how things happen if that was the case I wouldn't be bartending into my early 30's though I must admit it's better then a ton of jobs I had prior.

Aaargh!

We still need a backup catcher.
I want Mr & Mrs Matt Treanor.

Bonehead: Does Kerrie Walsh come with the set?

Phils looking for a backup catcher, speaking to Brian Schneider and others.
"Hello, Brian, we are actively looking to sign a backup catcher. Is there anybody out there you could recommend?"

I may just boycott the club if we bring Schneider back.

Seriously Rube...WTF?

"Aaaaaaaaaargh! Enough with the whining about overpaying. That's professional sports. If you'd prefer we could be the Pirates or the Royals and be constant basement dwellers" - jc

I agree. Posters on this site are constantly harping about what players are being paid. You'd think that BL was charging us for each comment and the money went directly into the Ryan Howard contract subsidy account. Rube is spending the money and signing the elite free agents. I have no problem with that.

Lake Fred: I think it's an outcry against WHICH players the Phillies choose to pay. Not a lot of consternation over the Lee or Halladay deals. Probably won't be much of a fuss over the Hamels or Pence deal when (if?) they happen. On the flip side, not too many people were happy about the Polonco, Ibanez, Howard, and now Papaelbon deals. Many of the same people unhappy about a 3 year deal for Polonco would have been ok with paying Beltre a good bit more money.

Anyone who references players being overpaid are saying so based on the belief that the Phillies have a budget in terms of filling out their roster.

Papelbon being paid +$12M a year is criticized because those poster's belief is that the Phillies' remaining ability to sign other players has declined $12M for this season.

so if you want to argue with posters who think this, please do - but don't argue on the basis of a player's individual salary becasue thats not what the debate is over.

to piggyback on that idea that it's the players not the money, if your going to sign a guy that isn't my personal preference (or yours), at least get him at a discount instead of paying top dollar and throwing on an extra year. That way I can say to myself, "Well, at least we made a good deal".

And for the record, I am one of those posters who believe that the Phillies have a annual budget with strict constraints - and believe that $12.5M per year, for the next 4 years, will prove to be more detremental to the Phillies budget constraints than Papelbon's contributions once the contract runs it course.

"to piggyback on that idea that it's the players not the money, if your going to sign a guy that isn't my personal preference (or yours), at least get him at a discount instead of paying top dollar and throwing on an extra year. That way I can say to myself, "Well, at least we made a good deal"."

Umm...he was the Phillies preference (you know, the people writing the checks).

Sounds like RAJ forgot to read "Who should be the Phillies closer" fan poll on Bleacher Report.

Should have been more clear by saying:

I think the fiscal conseqences of Papelbon's contract to the Phillies budget will outweight the contributions he makes on the field over the course of his contract.

Or in others words, i don't like this signing.

Bed's Beard: exactly. sound's like managerial malpractice to me. . . seriously though, I'm commenting on other's comments about the "whiners". Not really about the wisdom of the Papelbon deal. I'm just saying that as an individual fan, there are some guys I'm personally ok with paying a bunch of money for and some guys who I'm going to complain about if you pay them a bunch of money. Just the nature of the beast. But, by taking your point here, no phan should be upset with any Phillie signing because it was obviously management's pick and they are never wrong. Might as well shutter the blogosphere. A 3rd year for Ibanez & Polonco was obviously the right move, signing Howard 2 years early was brilliant. And no one ought to have criticized it at the time.

Jonathan Papelbon's contract raped my mother and killed my father.

That all said, I'm ok with the year to year outlay but the deal was, as usual, probably 1 year to long. That, plus I have a natural preference for homegrown talent so losing Madson in the deal makes bringing in a guy of Papelbon's talents (and personality) bittersweet. I'm not really freaking out over the deal, just trying to put a rational reasoning out there for those that are.

I want to take this time out to remind Rube that we don't want the Phils to match the offer for Reyes nor make a similar offer for Jimmy.

The Phillies could re-sign both Rollins and Madson, lock up Hamels & Hunter Pence, sign Albert Pujols, Mark Buerhle, and Michael Cuddyer, and trade Mini-Mart, Tyson Gillies, Travis Mattair, and Anthony Hewitt for Ryan Zimmerman and Stephen Strasburg, & I would still declare the off-season a colossal failure if Brian Schneider somehow winds up back on our opening day roster.

rauls grandpa: You can count on me for $5. towards my suggestion of a kidnap MM fund. You should have no trouble finding 11 more people on here to meet your $60. estimate, but the shipping charges on that Datsun tranny might be a bit much.

*** I would still declare the off-season a colossal failure if Brian Schneider somehow winds up back on our opening day roster.***

In such a scenario, UC would probably PH with Schneider over Pujols based on a Gut feeling and would use Polly as the starting 3B because he's a Gold Glover. Zimmerman would get 4 PA every 2 weeks as a backup.

The comments to this entry are closed.

EST. 2005

Top Stories

HardballTalk

Rotoworld News

Follow on Twitter

Follow on Facebook

Contact Weitzel

CSG