Postgame: Phillies scuffle as Cardinals force five

Now, Roy Halladay must save the season.

The dream rotation. An intact offense. The best record in baseball. Frankly, you wouldn't know it from this series, which has been pedestrian at best for the Phillies overall. Now, they find themselves in unfamiliar territory with Friday's winner-take-all, where the Cardinals have nothing to lose while the Phillies stand to lose everything.

Let's start with the pitching, where Roy Oswalt joined stablemate Cliff Lee in Dudsville and was done after 82 pitches. Of the four aces, two stunk. Should the Phillies advance, the prospect of starting Oswalt again seems dubious at best. Obviously, over the course of a 162-game season, the advantage of having a stellar pitching staff manifested to the game's best record, but in this best-of-five, the lines have blurred. Actually, the real stars might be the maligned Cardinals bullpen, which chipped in a couple of good innings again tonight.

As bad as Oswalt was, I cursed the bats almost as much as I cursed Yadier Molina when he conferenced with his pitcher for the 100th time. Jimmy Rollins complained when the fans fell silent in Game 2, which was the precise time the Cards hushed the 3-through-6 hitters of the Phillies, who have not had an extra base hit since Game 1. Tonight, their 4-through-6 went 0-for-12 despite the favorable matchup against right-hander Edwin Jackson (6 IP, 2 ER), which also spoiled a relatively decent effort by the table-setters - Rollins, Chase Utley and Hunter Pence - who got after it like gangbusters with two runs in the first. Utley's aggressive baserunning in the sixth backfired, but I liked the idea and respect Utley's baserunning immensely. Nevertheless, that was one of their only shots after losing the lead.

The Phillies get one more. Time for Doc to deliver in the game of his life.

Comments

[Slocs]

Depressing but the same issues we worried about all year is happening. Hitters disappearing and too often this team ois all or nothing - they put up a crooked number one inning and then can't tack on. Red-birds, whittle away at leads or continuously add on to leads. Small ball, good at bats win games in the playoffs, this team is not built for that. Playing Polly who is a shell of his former self, leaving in Howard against lefties and an unwillingness to pinch hit for Ruiz, Ibanez and never, ever making a double switch is not having phaith in the guys, it is just plain bad managing. There is a whole mess of people not doing jack-sh-t need to shake things up. Move JMJ to number 3, Pence to 5 and start anyone instead of Polly, the guy is done.

[GBrettfan]

Phlipper - Thank you! I figured that's what you meant. I have a dog, but that never lessens any of my anxieties.

I agree with your 2nd paragraph, especially the last 2 sentences. I find when I watch teams that I don't really care about, that's when I want a series to go to the final game. When I've invested myself emotionally, I'm happier to feel superior to the other team.

So I will watch, and I will hope, and I will worry. I will be tense and I will have adrenalin. If we win, that will all pay off in euphoria. If we lose, I'll be crushed for a while. That's just the way I do the fan-thing.

Congrats on surviving your jump.

[whitey]

Does anyone have the stats for a pitcher in his first game after a short rest start?

Posted by: Cyclic | Wednesday, October 05, 2011 at 09:22 PM

Anyone?

[phanatic's brother]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[Iceman]

From the last thread:

TTI- blaming Cliff for anything isn't going to get you very far with most on here. He sits at the right hand of St. Utley.

For the record, I might be your only ally on that issue. He really blew it Sunday night and would be at the top of my list of those culpable if they lose. But if they do go down in Game 5 and Halladay doesn't pitch a complete game shutout, I guarantee you the BL Blame Rankings will go 1) Howard, 2) Manuel, 3) Halladay, with Lee nowhere to be found. Maybe switch 1 and 2, depending on what Manuel does in Game 5 that he can be blamed for.

[conshy matt]

for those who were wondering from the last thread, the "get a dog" thing was not from Eskin. it was from Gordon Gecko in Wall Street.

[whitey]

I blame Bochy.

[Old Phan]

Ice, I'm with you and TTI. I don't like "blaming" any one player on a team, but Lee's performance was a big fail. The team did the one thing that everyone always craves, which is to stake the started to a big lead, and that's what the Phils non-offense did.
And while we're touching on the untouchables, what was Uts thinking on that play today?

[NEPP]

Clifton Lee had a colossal choke job on Sunday.

[Raul's grandpa]

Phlipper,
If you are made of copper and you float by Gloucester City or Camden they will chop you up and recycle you for Horse money.

[Iceman]

I'm just as disgusted by the offense in the last two games as everyone else.

But as disgusted as I am, you really couldn't ask for a better situation in a do-or-die game. Your Ace, the best pitcher in baseball, at home- you can't ask for anything more than that. We could be the Yankees and throwing a 24 year-old in a decisive Game 5. We could be the D-Backs throwing Joe Saunders with our season on the line. But we've got Doc Halladay. With the season on the line, it's all you can really ask for.

Well, that and a run. Or two.

[J. Weitzel]

Agree that Lee's Game 2 stands as the turning point if the Phillies ... you know.

[Iceman]

Old Phan- I'm still really baffled that Utley's play can possibly be spun into a good decision, and if Vic had done it, people would still be calling him brainless.

[GTown_Dave]

Phils fans felt pretty confident having Steve Carlton going up against Steve Rogers in their team's last NLDS Game 5. The Phillies didn't score a single friggin' run that day.

[Fatalotti]

I'm excited. Game 5 with Doc on the mound is the dream scenario. Hopefully he's vintage Doc and the offense shows up, which I believe they will.

And it's not even a big deal if we win and don't have our ace going for game 1 of the LCS, since we have Lee and Hamels lined up for games 1 and 2.

Can't wait for Friday night!!

[Fatalotti]

Phils fans felt pretty confident having Steve Carlton going up against Steve Rogers in their team's last NLDS Game 5. The Phillies didn't score a single friggin' run that day.

Posted by: GTown_Dave | Wednesday, October 05, 2011 at 09:51 PM

Question GTown: Do the event of that day have any relevance to what's going to happen Friday night?

[3r0ck]

If this night couldn't get any worse - Steve Jobs has died. A guy that forever changed our society and impacted the World and how we live our lives. Puts things into perspective.

RIP Steve Jobs

[Scott]

Meanwhile, back in St. Louis...

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5173/drunksquirel.jpg

[NEPP]

Steve Jobs was a great American and a great innovator. He transformed not one but two entire industries (movie industry with Pixar and home computer industry with Apple)

[GTown_Dave]

Fatalotti: As a matter of fact, they do. It doesn't matter if you've got a HoF pitcher w/ 4 Cy Young Awards going for you, in order to win a baseball game your team must score some f*cking runs. If the Phillies can't find a way to get to Cardinals' pitchers, Halladay's outing will be as irrelevant as Hamels' would have been had not Francisco hit that HR. People put too damn much emphasis on pitching, & not nearly enough on being able to score runs.

[Dukes]

watched that called third to goldwhatever...and i really think the officials in baseball play into the outcome of the game more than any other sport. that was def. a ball.

[NEPP]

So, we're basically a Ben Francisco HR away from being eliminated in 4...

Pretty worrisome.

[Fatalotti]

Another grand slam for the D-Backs!!!

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Missed innings 4 through 8 thanks to my children. Not happy they lost. Still, not going to despair having to win a game with Roy Halladay pitching. We're all counting on you Roy. Figure you wouldn't have it any other way.

[Phlipper (Swan dive executed well. Miraculously survived, now swimming to shore to dry off and wait for Friday.)]

GBrett -

Actually, I pretty much feel exactly the same way that you do. I'll be nervous - probably will turn the TV on and off 100 times if they don't grab an early lead and stay well-ahead the entire game. I'll be elated if they win, bummed if they lose.

That said, I probably won't hand-wring and whine like a schoolgirl about how awful the team is or what a moron Charlie is.

[Fatalotti]

Man, these Brewers sure do stink. They are going to get taken to 5 games just like those lousy Yankees and god-awful Phillies.

Rangers are the only good team in baseball right now.

[GTown_Dave]

I don't feel the least bit sorry for Wolf. Suck it, douchebag.

[GBrettfan]

I'm with you, GTown. Appreciate you venting all that frustration for me.

And I, too, feel like Cliff Lee let us down.

I feel it's a team effort, and the team has not picked each other up.

[TK]

Team of necessity right?

well, this next game is the first deciding game of this team's run...as necessary as it gets.

Win the game Friday. Anything less and this team's legacy is tarnished forever. No joke.

[Dickie Thong]

Wolf is getting shelled in the 1st inning. A granny and a solo shot.

[GTown_Dave]

I feel it's a team effort, and the team has not picked each other up.

Very well phrased. I agree completely.

[Steve]

NEPP: they were a Cliff Lee meltdown away from sweeping in 3. That's the way it goes

[Iceman]

Also, am I the only one that thinks, all in all, the Cardinals really couldn't have played any better in the first four games of this series?

Game 1- Halladay shut them down for most of the game, but they still struck a big blow against him early. And Lohse is Lohse- eventually you're going to get to him.

Game 2- Carpenter had nothing and was pulled early. Their bullpen comes in and completely shuts the door. On top of that, their offense comes back from 4-0 against a pitcher that will probably finish in the top 3 in Cy Young voting this year- and they do it with a pair of slap hitters at the bottom of their lineup.

Game 3- They can't score against a great pitcher, but they still foul off about a million pitches and force him out after 6. They put about a million runners on base and every AB seems like it lasts 10 pitches. The difference between a win and a loss was one belt-high fastball to a hitter that hadn't hit a HR since May. And their bullpen again gave up nothing.

Game 4- They trail 2-0 about 90 seconds into the game. Edwin Jackson proceeds to give them 6 and 2, their bullpen slams the door AGAIN, and they get enough big hits against Oswalt (again from a hitter in the bottom third of the order) to come from behind again for the win.

I understand that Cardinals fans probably have a different perspective, but to me, they have played incredibly well so far. And it's still 2-2.

[Phlipper (Swan dive executed well. Miraculously survived, now swimming to shore to dry off and wait for Friday.)]

Actually, NEPP, I think that we're 11 runs in the first game away from losing the series in 4.

Or, we're two runs in the second game away from winning in 4.

[Phlipper (Swan dive executed well. Miraculously survived, now swimming to shore to dry off and wait for Friday.)]

GTown.

Do you realize that the Phillies have scored more runs than the Cards in this series?

[Fatalotti]

That was a pretty impressive first inning by the D-Backs.

[GBrettfan]

Maybe they need a gimmick. Like the snake hands of the Diamondbacks, the horns of the Rangers, the paws or whatever it is that the Brewers are doing.

JK

[Hugh Mulcahy]

The past is prologue, etc. Win the next game or endure teh post mortem.

[GBrettfan]

Iceman, the Cardinals have played great baseball.

As Ricky Bo said, they've played to win, and they've capitalized on Phils' pitchers' mistakes.

[Phlipper (Swan dive executed well. Miraculously survived, now swimming to shore to dry off and wait for Friday.)]

What does that mean - they "played to win?"

Does it mean that the Phillies have "played to lose?"

So, have the Phillies "played to win" for two games while "playing to lose" for two games, while the Cards have also "played to win" for two games and "played to lose" for two games?

[Cyclic]

That was a pretty impressive first inning by the D-Backs.

Posted by: Fatalotti | Wednesday, October 05, 2011 at 10:09 PM

Yeah but they're going against a back of the rotation guy like Wolf, not an ace like Jackson.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Phlipper, I told you to step in the path of a train. You're a failure.

[GTown_Dave]

Phlipper: Yup. The Phillies have scored as many total runs in Games 2-4 as they did in the 6th-8th Innings of Game 1. It's streaky. It's pathetic. It's classic School of Charlie hittin'.

[NEPP]

I would give up Halladay and Lee for Jackson straight up...he's that good.

[Fatalotti]

NEPP, we should probably throw in Ben Francisco as a good faith gesture. Jackson is worth a little more than Lee and Halladay.

[DH Phils]

Phlipper: It's all about momentum shifts.

[GhostofFelske]

Three little words give me pause before getting too hyped about having Game 5 at home:

Edgar Effing Renteria.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

For some reason, instead of being nervous/panicked about Friday night, I feel calm and confident. I call it the "Halladay Effect".

Who's with me?

[Fatalotti]

Also, I don't agree that the Cardinals have "nothing to lose" while the Phillies have "everything to lose". Both teams have played 166 games, invested the entire season into getting to and winning a WS. Both teams have their entire season's worth of work to lose.

The Phillies won't play tighter, nor the Cardinals looser, because the Phillies won 102 while the Cards won 90.

It's a winner take-all, and it should be a good one. We need to stop trying to give a narrative to everything. This is two good baseballs teams throwing their best pitchers at each other, and the team that scores more runs gets a chance at the next series.

[NEPP]

What if we just offered to cover their salaries...could we keep BenFran at that point?

I'd hate to lose his big bat.

[Bake McBride was Here]

'For some reason, instead of being nervous/panicked about Friday night, I feel calm and confident. I call it the "Halladay Effect".

Who's with me?'

/crickets/

[NEPP]

We're gonna win Friday...and we still will have very favorable matchups going into the NLCS with Lee in Game 1 and Hamels in Game 2.

[Cyclic]

This is probably my favorite post tonight....

"Man, these Brewers sure do stink. They are going to get taken to 5 games just like those lousy Yankees and god-awful Phillies.

Rangers are the only good team in baseball right now.

Posted by: Fatalotti | Wednesday, October 05, 2011 at 10:03 PM"

[Phlipper (Swan dive executed well. Miraculously survived, now swimming to shore to dry off and wait for Friday.)]

GTown -

Let me make sure I understand you correctly.

Say the Cards score 6 runs tomorrow.

You'd rather have the Phillies score one run in 5 innings than 7 runs in one inning - because it isn't how many runs you score that counts, it's whether or not you're "streaky?"

[Marley]

BedBeard, I'm similarly serene.

In Doc We Trust.

[GBrettfan]

Actually, the rest of what Ricky Bo said was that the Phillies have been playing not to lose.

But, point taken.

Better to simply say that we've been outplayed. And maybe out-lucked.

[Phlipper (Swan dive executed well. Miraculously survived, now swimming to shore to dry off and wait for Friday.)]

DH Phils -

No problem.

Momentum has shifted in the Phillies favor since they were the last team to score runs in the series.

[Scotch Man]

If told I could pick any pitcher in baseball to pitch on Friday, I'd pick Roy Halladay. This is his moment.

[Fatalotti]

If Gibson is smart, he'll see if he can get some innings about Hudson tonight.

[GBrettfan]

It will be exciting to see Doc on Friday. I have confidence in him.

And I'm hoping that playing at home, our hitters will put some runs on the board, too.

I do always think it's more fun to clinch a series at home than on the road.

[GTown_Dave]

Phlipper: Yeah. That's exactly what I mean.

[Phlipper (Swan dive executed well. Miraculously survived, now swimming to shore to dry off and wait for Friday.)]

I kind of understand the "playing not to lose" idea - but I really think it's mostly just cliche BS of the type that Ricky Bo often comes up with.

Utley wasn't playing "to not lose" when he tried to take third base, and it turned out to be a bad move.

I like your version better. We've been outplayed (in two games), and I think maybe outlucked - but the Phils have had some luck of their own.

[Fatalotti]

Joe Saunders going all Cliff Lee on his team here.

[Phlipper (Swan dive executed well. Miraculously survived, now swimming to shore to dry off and wait for Friday.)]

That's what I figured GTown.

I thought that given your previous posts, I must not understand something about your logic. But now it's clear to me just how it is you're reasoning.

[AFish]

One possibly good sign is that Utley is on fire, and he has good numbers against Carpenter (as do Vic and Polanco).

[EastFallowfield]

I'm wondering how we'd feel if the game outcomes were reversed.

Would we feel like we won yesterday, since so many here act like the Phils lost yesterday, because we gave up the deciding HR to an awful player and left a ridiculous amount of runners on base?

Would we be excited about going with an ace who was already knocked around on short rest against the best pitcher in the league?

[Iceman]

GBrettfan- I think there's a certain truth to what Ricky Bo said about playing 'not to lose.' I don't think you can take as the sole reason they haven't already won the series, because anytime any team loses, it can be said that it looks like they don't want to win.

But in a majority of their ABs, they absolutely have not gone to the plate with any kind of urgency, any kind of gameplan, giving up at-bats before they even start. Taking strike one only to swing at junk on the second or third pitch.

You could attribute it to pressing or tightening up, feeling the weight of the expectations everyone in Philadelphia (and in the media) has put on their shoulders. Or you could attribute it to just not playing up to their potential. There's no way to know.

Either way, they have been outplayed by the Cardinals so far this series, yet it's still tied. They've got their ace on the mound in Game 5. If we don't see some urgency and focus on Friday, I'd be pretty surprised.

[Marc]

Friday is a loss. Put it in the books.

Their bats are quiet, they're clueless at the plate. They couldn't hit Edwin Jackson....think that'll change against Carpenter??

Doc won't pitch nearly a no-no, which they'll need to have a shot at a win. Thanks to Cliff and Oswalt, he has all the pressure.

I didn't care about winning 102 games. I cared about winning a World Championship. So what, we swept the Braves.....and let a scrappy team like St. Louis in the door. I don't care about playing the best teams, I want to take the road that is the best chance of winning a championship. I had no fears or MIL, AZ, or ATL at all, but the Cards (who were 21-4 down the stretch) were a team to fear...they were getting hot at the right time.

But, hey, we swept the Braves and won 102 games. Guess that's good enough, huh?

[Fatalotti]

Marc, why even watch on Friday night?

[DH Phils]

Marc: They'll need a no-hitter to win? Wouldn't, say, a 7-hit shutout work just as well?

[Fatalotti]

http://www.thefightins.com/ryan/watch-shane-victorino-trip-on-a-shadow/

Funnier every time you watch it!!

[Meyer]

Marc, screw the Braves. Let the best team win.

[Marc]

@Fat - Good question, but I guess cuz I still love 'em and will have to go down with the ship.

@DH - Sure any shut-out would be great, but the Cards have a knack from stringing those hits together, so I think a 7-hit shutout is as unlikely. As I said, scrappy team, they just know how to manufacture runs....us? we seem to have forgotten...

[Phlipper (Swan dive executed well. Miraculously survived, now swimming to shore to dry off and wait for Friday.)]

Iceman - I usually agree with your posts - but not that 10:39 one.

You criticize them for looking at first pitches, a ton of other commenters criticize them for swinging at fist pitches.

I don't think they're particularly pressing, or tight. And I don't think they've been "outplayed."

The series is tied. They've scored more runs (which also means they've allowed fewer). They are in an advantageous position to take the series.

Perhaps if their coach wasn't a "moron," who "bungles" decisions, they'd have won the series already.

[DH Phils]

If I were someone who tries to psychoanalyze baseball players I've never met and pigeonhole their actions into the categories "playing to win" and "playing not to lose", I would call early-in-the-count swings "playing to win" and I would call patient, passive at-bats "playing not to lose".

The Phillies, in my opinion, are being too aggressive at the plate. They need less of the "aggressive", "play to win" mindset, not more.

[Marc]

@Fat - Good question, but I guess cuz I still love 'em and will have to go down with the ship.

@DH - Sure any shut-out would be great, but the Cards have a knack from stringing those hits together, so I think a 7-hit shutout is as unlikely. As I said, scrappy team, they just know how to manufacture runs....us? we seem to have forgotten...

[DH Phils]

Marc: Do you remember yesterday's game? The Cardinals had like 30 hits and spread them out so much that they only scored 2 runs.

[Iceman]

"So what, we swept the Braves.....and let a scrappy team like St. Louis in the door."

Can't let those scrappy teams get in, what with their scrappy scrappiness.

Someone should be keeping track of some of these gems we're getting tonight, if only for some comedy relief in the event of a win on Friday.

I don't care how hot the Cardinals were in the last month. They are 2-2 in their last two games. And Meyer is right: screw the Braves. Anyone advocating that we should have laid down to let a weaker team in the playoffs is just as gutless as, well, the Braves.

[Marc]

@DH - Of course you are right. This is just me staring at what feels like the impossible on Friday.

[Rob]

It appears that no one is intimidated by the Phillies anymore. Even if Doc salvages this series, tougher teams await. The psychological edge is gone. Lose this game and even more is lost.

[Cyclic]

Accuscore was right!

[GTown_Dave]

Zolecki (via Twitter): The home team in a deciding Game 5 in Division Series play is 8-9 overall, and 2-4 in the National League.

[AFish]

All the folks saying you can put a loss in the books can make a lot of $$$. The Phillies are pretty heavy favorites in the sportsbooks.

[cut_fastball]

This is a team full of older players. Most but not all are set for life. Utley's clumsy 1st to 3rd -- and Doc's crazy passion for a ring notwithstanding -- they are playing like a team who is satisfied with what's been accomplished. If I see Howard wave bye-bye at a slow breaking ball again, I might puke.

If the Philadelphia Phillies lose on Friday, RAJ must absofreakinlutely back up the truck and start over. Based what I've seen up to now in September and October of this year, maybe July 2010 was the time to do just that. Pitching to the team's ERA is no guarantee of winning with the lethargy at the plate and the intransigence of the manager hanging around like a millstone.

[Fatalotti]

Wow, the D-Backs are pinch hitting for their starter in the 3rd inning...

[Phlipper (Swan dive executed well. Miraculously survived, now swimming to shore to dry off and wait for Friday.)]

"If the Philadelphia Phillies lose on Friday, RAJ must absofreakinlutely back up the truck and start over"

This is satire, right?

Someone, please. Tell me that's satire.

[Cyclic]

Balls like those get you W's.

What a move by Gibson.

[Fatalotti]

Worked out pretty well, I guess.

[Fatalotti]

Does the left side of the Brewers infield have any range?

Maybe they wouldn't have gotten to that ball, but the didn't even TRY...

[Phlipper (Swan dive executed well. Miraculously survived, now swimming to shore to dry off and wait for Friday.)]

Meanwhile - Wolf is actually still in the game?

[mal-vern]

i blame the frigin squirrel

[BobbyD]

Forget the pitchers, forget the matchups, forget the teams. There is a 50-50 chance the Phillies win Friday.

[kuvasz]

Two go in, one comes out.

I don't think that the Phillies have exhibited as much a sense of urgency coursing through their veins as the Cardinals have.

The Cards seem the hungrier team after four games.

[mal-vern]

i heard the st louis squirrel book a round trip ticket with his frequent rodent flyer miles on twiggy airways... Should be here by 1st pitch friday

[DH Phils]

"This is a team full of older players. Most but not all are set for life. Utley's clumsy 1st to 3rd -- and Doc's crazy passion for a ring notwithstanding -- they are playing like a team who is satisfied with what's been accomplished. If I see Howard wave bye-bye at a slow breaking ball again, I might puke.

If the Philadelphia Phillies lose on Friday, RAJ must absofreakinlutely back up the truck and start over. Based what I've seen up to now in September and October of this year, maybe July 2010 was the time to do just that. Pitching to the team's ERA is no guarantee of winning with the lethargy at the plate and the intransigence of the manager hanging around like a millstone."

The crazy-ideas-to-words ratio of this post is very impressive.

[Fatalotti]

This team, as it has always been, will live and die with their starting pitching. If Doc comes out and pitches a gem, our chances of winning are very high. If he goes out and gets beat up, that's 3 of our starters taking it on the chin in a 5 game series. Obviously can't win like that.

Whatever happens, I'd rather lose in a do-or-die game every year than be like the Pirates or Royals and never have anything to play with in October. This series has been a nail biter and thoroughly enjoyable so far.

[Cyclic]

First pitch to every hitter, Halladay should pretend there's two strikes...

Throw something out of the zone and watch them wave at it.

[Old Phan]

I think a team that is built to win the WFC and nothing else is probably very hungry.

[Meyer]

At least back up a 4-wheeler with 2 million packed in pull-a-along.

[GBrettfan]

True words, Fata. (11:04pm)