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Wednesday, September 28, 2011


Charlie 645-488.Gene 645-682 - 2.
As many wins with almost 200 fewer losses.

Charlie brought us 2008.
Mauch brought us 1964.


Yeah I don't think there's any doubt that Manuel is the better manager of the two. Just kind of exploring the value of the two records against each other.

Who is the losingest Phillies manager?
Is it Gene Mauch?

BAP - Let me clarify what I meant by saying that Drew for Dom would not be a small price. Drew is scheduled to make $7.75 million in 2012 and has a mutual option for $10M in 2013. You are giving up a cheap OF with good projectables to get him. Since everyone is so concerned with the Phils budget over the next few years, it is wise to keep cheap young players who can put up league average numbers.

Mauch is the losingest. Manuel is 5th in losses, 12 behind Danny Ozark.

I would love to see them win tonight. I would love to see the team and Charlie break the records.

I would also love to see them beat the Braves.

from Hardball talk:

Ted Williams he’s not: Jose Reyes exits finale after leadoff hit to preserve batting title lead
by Aaron Gleeman

Sep 28, 2011, 1:46 PM EDT

Ted Williams famously opted against resting to preserve his .400 batting average on the final day of the 1941 season, instead going 6-for-8 in a doubleheader to finish at .406.

Jose Reyes took a different approach today, leading off the Mets’ season finale with a bunt single that raised his batting average to an NL-leading .337 … and then immediately exiting the game as fans in New York booed the decision.

They didn’t even wait for Reyes to run the bases or take his position defensively in the next half-inning. And that may end up being his final moment in a Mets uniform, which is a shame.

By adding a 1-for-1 to his season totals Reyes has made things very difficult on Ryan Braun, who now needs to collect at least three hits tonight to win the batting title.

I don't think there's any doubt Charlie is a better manager than Mauch, either. Their respective Postseason records can attest to that. However, one should not overlook the impact of a team payroll that has risen from $95.5 Million in '05 => $173 Million in '11. It's a lot easier to continue racking up Wins when Ownership is willing to shell out for the best players.

I'm happy to give Charlie accolades for doing what it takes to keep the team focused, consistent, steady, and positive on their way to 5 division titles!

G-Town, absent of managers managing identical teams in exactly the same situations (could this be simulated on a computer?) it's virtually impossible to divorce payroll level from manager success.

GBrett, that syas all you need to know about Reyes.

Chickenshit weasel in addition to showboating hotdog.

If the Phillies try to sign him instead of Rollins I'll cancel my season tickets.

Bigotto: True. But the media who (rightly) ripped Phillies' ownership for years upon years for being cheap ought to be as quick to laud them for finally investing in a winning team. It's not as lovable of a story as heaping praise on Charlie, but it's every bit as important.

Charlie deserves this record and all the accolades.

That said, there is absolutely no comparison between the talent level of those 1960s Phillies teams and this one. They were below average talent teams that had one fluky year in which a bunch of guys had career years and things fell just right for 7/8ths of the season.

clout, 7/8ths or 1/12th?

I keep reading lines like "the Cardinals just need one win tonight to guarantee themselves a 163rd game for a chance at the playoffs"

I guess everyone is just assuming that the Braves are going to win tonight, huh?

I don't, for one.

I'm pretty confident that the Rays and Cardinals will be the WC teams.

Halladay v. Garcia on Saturday, then?

Fata - I kinda want the Cards to lose. Cause the Braves SHOULD lose (whether they do or not is another matter) because they are playing pretty poorly right now (although there is no such thing as cold streaks, I've been told).

Again, my dream scenario? Both lose. They go to extras in the one game play-off using up their aces and putting extra innings on their relievers. Braves win the game on a strike-out wild pitch, two errors and catcher's interference in the 17th inning.

redburb: Sure, that's always true when you give up prospects for established players. But, then again, the Phillies would probably have to pay Rollins somewhere from $10 to $14M per year for 3+ years if they want to retain him. So, in that context, getting a shortstop who is better, younger, and cheaper than Rollins would be more economically beneficial than harmful -- even if it meant giving up a high-upside outfield prospect.

But this is all very hypothetical since there is no way the D-Backs are going to be trading Drew.

Yeah, but Andy, the Cards have Carpenter pitching tonight. Maybe Brett Myers will have one of his great starts, but I think the Cards have to be the favorites.


(Look at it in all its majestic glory.)

To really get yer head spinning, if they win the WS this year, Uncle Charlie has a good chance of heading to Cooperstown. Some cherry-picked stats, but food for thought:

Every manager with 3 or more WS is in (+Torre, who will be), and 6 of the 14 who have 2 WS are in (+LaRussa, which makes it half.) He would have the highest win % and the most playoff appearances and wins of anyone 2-time WS winner who's not in.

He's 26th all-time by the "Wins over .500" standard, and that's sure to climb if he hangs around just a couple or three more years. He's kinda old at 67 to really climb the all-time win list, but if he gets 270 more (Three more very good years), he'll be in the top 50.

He also has been an amazingly consistent winner; in 10 years his teams never finished worse than 3rd (only once) and only under .500 once. In fact, he's 14th ALL-TIME in win % among guys with 1,000 games managed, and all but ONE GUY above him on that list is NOT in the Hall -- and that guy (Truthful Jim Mutrie) managed only 9 years in the 1880s.

The HOF standards for managers are sort of squishy, but if they win this year AND he hangs around three more years, he'll have a similar record to the kinds of guys who do get in. And needless to say if he gets three WS (ahhhh... dreammmm), he'll definitely be in.

Clout's right on target about the differences in the teams Mauch managed versus Manuel. Mauch had much less talent than Manuel's teams and way much less talent than the teams with which his teams competed. Those who actually watched his Phillies teams in the '60's knew he was trying to make chicken salad out of chicken sh#t.

Gene Mauch knew baseball like few managers have, and that includes Manuel.

Any clues how they want to set up the pitching tonight after Joey B?
I was surprised to see Kendrick last night, I thought they might use him first out of the pen tonight. Try to get combined quality start out of Joe & Kyle.
See what happens.
Fun night, with no real pressure on the Phils and do or die for the Braves, Cards et al.

Is the consensus that tonight is basically Blanton's make-or-break audition for a bullpen role on the postseason roster?

Willard I think that the front office is trying to show him off for a trade in the off season.

I'd like to see St. Louis & Atlanta both lose, & I'd like to see Boston & Tampa end with the same record, as well. It's not because I particularly care about any of the above teams. It's just that tomorrow will be excruciatingly boring if there's no baseball game to watch.

I may be the only one, but were I Ruben, I'd be calling the Red Sox right now to see how much of his salary would be required for them to take him off the Phillies' hands.

And a bullpen game with Hamels mixed in tonight would be fine, also.

Imagine how many games the great Charlie Manuel would have won by now if that bumbling moron Charlie Manuel hadn't been managing them.

"Those who actually watched his Phillies teams in the '60's knew [Mauch] was trying to make chicken salad out of chicken sh#t."

Remind me not to order the chicken salad if I ever eat at his restaurant.

Who would the Cardinals pitch on Saturday if they win a one-game playoff vs. Braves on Thursday?

GBrettfan: "Yeah, but Andy, the Cards have Carpenter pitching tonight. Maybe Brett Myers will have one of his great starts, but I think the Cards have to be the favorites."

Myers in September: 4-0 in 4 starts, 1.23 ERA, .818 WHIP, 21K/3BB, and a .490 OPS against in 29.1 IP

So Myers def has a chance to get the 'Stros a win.

I'll be rooting for Myers, for sure.

aksmith, hellyea that would awesome - lets hope for a Tampa/Boston tiebreak and force them to take some of his 2012 salary.

Per Matt Gelb:

Blanton is making his second start since May and he will only pitch two innings (or so). Cole Hamels follows Blanton and could pitch anywhere from one to three innings. The Phillies have been vague on that number.

Expect Vance Worley to pitch an inning of relief. Antonio Bastardo could throw again to build off a spectacular inning Tuesday.

A tidbit from the SI baseball heaven article: Cliff Lee's been on Adderall (a prescription amphetamine) since the beginning of the 2008 season.

Personally I think that's sort of a bummer, but, as Cliff would say, whatever.

Can I be a voice of dissent that the '60s Phillies teams weren't quite as bad as being made out to be? They had a solid catcher, a series of underwhelming 1B, good D/lousy O middle infielders, a HOF caliber slugger at 3B, an all-star in RF, solid enough in CF and meh in LF. A terrific 1-2 punch (later joined by the still-pretty good Larry Jackson), but meh otherwise starters and a generally solid bullpen. Not a great team, not comparable to anything from 2007-2011 but not that bad either. They did finish above .500 from 1962 through 1967. They were very much a product of their era.

Redburb (at top of thread): the only problem with your logic is that Drew wouldn't be taking Brown's spot, but Rollins'. We're not talking about replacing a cheap young outfielder with a $10 million shortstop, but a potential $12/15 million a year SS with a slightly cheaper one. Mayberry can play LF better than Dom and is also a young, cheap player, so left field is still cost-controlled.

Baseball reference currently lists Mauch's win total at 646, not 645:

I know lots of press has been reporting the 645 number today, but there seems to be a discrepancy here. Anyone know how this can be verified?

I hope Braun goes 5 for 5.

Good catch, Matthew. I remember looking at BR a couple weeks ago, and doing the math, and thinking Charlie needed 103 to beat him. Not sure what's going on.

Cholly as a HOF manager even if they win the WS this year? He's only managed 10 seasons total including this year. He doesn't have the win totals they normally vote in or the longevity.

I see could see him getting voted in down the line by the Veteran's Committee though if they do win the WS again this year, he has a winning year next year including another NL East pennant, and retires on top.

I really don't even know how you really objectively compare Mauch and Cholly to be honest.

I would already say Cholly is the best manager they have had. Yeah they have had tons of talent especially the last 2 years but he has won & won regularly.

""Those who actually watched his Phillies teams in the '60's knew [Mauch] was trying to make chicken salad out of chicken sh#t.""

It's not real chicken salad, it's Mauch chicken salad.

It's not real chicken salad, it's Mauch chicken salad.

Too much mayonnaise.

What's up with Vic's back?

A lot of Cholly's rep as the Phils' manager over his tenure is going to come down to how this team does in the playoffs.

They got bounced early in the 1st round and Cholly has a suspect managerial decision that costs them in one of the games late, his overall rep takes a hit.

If they make it back to the WS and possibly win another WS title, this rep nationally gets boosted.

Unfair that a such a small handful of games would affect it that much but I have a feeling they do.

Bobby: I'd like an omelet, plain, & a Mauch Chicken Salad Sandwich on wheat toast, no mayonnaise, no butter, no lettuce. And a cup of coffee.

Waitress: A Number 2, Mauch Chicken Salad Sand. Hold the butter, the lettuce, the mayonnaise, & a cup of coffee. Anything else?

Bobby: Yeah, now all you have to do is hold the Mauch Chicken, bring me the toast, give me a check for the Mauch Chicken Salad Sandwich & you haven't broken any rules.

Waitress: You want me to hold the Mauch Chicken, huh?

Bobby: I want you to hold it between your knees.

Yo, new thread

Also, apparently, "One & done would rival '64 for Phils":

"It is bad because you and your children, Generation WTF, are collapse virgins. You have a clean emotional slate and a closet filled with Phillies attire."

yo, new ting.

Sure Charlie has had a good team but there have been many good and high paid teams that failed. The best example has been the NY Mets during the last few years. I think they have had one of the highest paid teams but few playoffs. Both the manager and GM are a big part of selecting players that play up to their salary.

I agree with Edmundo: Mauch's Phillies' teams of the 1960s weren't that bad at all. In fact, until 1975-83, the most successful Phillies' teams were 1962-67. Each one finished above .500 and the 1966 team may have been better than the 1964 club talent-wise. Allen was the Ryan Howard of those days, and games that Bunning pitched were special, just as Halladay's are now.That era is largely forgotten now. Still, the current Phillies are the greatest ever!!
Congratulations, Charlie.

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