Tuesday: Examining the love affair with Clifton Lee

Cliff Lee is a great pitcher – I totally get that and appreciate it. He’s one of the best pitchers of his generation and one of the best pitchers the Phillies have had in the last three decades. But I have a little bit of a hard time understanding why Phillies fans treat Lee like Yankees fans treat Derek Jeter or Cardinals fans treat Albert Pujols.

Monday night, when Lee caught a fairly routine pop-up, the fans erupted like he was Willie Mays in the ’54 Series. When he flew out to left field, Citizens Bank Park exploded like they just witnessed The Shot Heard 'Round the World. And whenever Lee does anything even remotely impressive, the Phils announcers all but take their shirts off and twirl them around their heads. Sorry for the visual.

In actuality, I do understand the love affair with Lee. He’s calm and cool, tough and determined, and obviously has terrific numbers with the Phillies this season, not to mention a superhuman effort to help the team reach the World Series in 2009. The fact that he also took less money to return to Philly last winter also is a significant factor.

But in the end, isn’t Cliff Lee trying to do what Cole Hamels already has done? Lee nearly pitched the Phillies to a championship. Hamels did it. Lee has only pitched two half-seasons for the Phillies. Hamels has been on this team for six years now. In short, Lee would trade Phillies résumés with Hamels in a second. But still, the fans act like Lee is the savior while Hamels continues to be somewhat of a lightning rod for criticism. I get that Lee is more “old school” and Hamels needs to be coddled a little bit. But in the end, isn’t it all about winning games (Hamels has 73 regular-season wins and 6 playoff wins, Lee has 20 and 4) and winning championships (Hamels – 1, Lee – 0). Maybe I’m wrong, but it just seems like Phillies fans need to take some of that Lee lovin’ and point it in Hamels’ direction. Not all of it, just a little.

Comments

[lorecore]

CY Young race getting crowded.

Doc, Hamels, Kershaw, and now Lee are legitimate winners, while Lincecum isn't too far behind and has been on a pretty hot streak over last few months.

[Shawn]

Hamels is a been there done that. CLIFF LEE was a love lost that we were able to get back to us. we'd been calling Cliff Lee C____ L__ for a while. i mean that's pretty absurd, no offense to fellow BLers

[bay_area_phan]

Quite honestly, if I were a Cy Young voter, and I had to vote today, I'd go: (1) Kershaw; (2) Halladay; (3) Lee. But the race is ultra-close & any of the 5 guys you just named could still win.

[Dan in Philly]

Cliff Lee has a fierce joy which radiates when he beats another player. He has a charisma which is almost unmatched in Phillies history, even with the success. He's awesome to watch, and when he's on, you can almost feel the emotion he brings.

Not to say that Hamels doesn't feel that, just he doesn't emote like that.

[Steve]

I prefer Clifford Lee

[fumphis]

I think there's a perception, and not a baseless one, that Hamels is just a different pitcher and person now than he was in 2008. For one, he's obviously completely overhauled his approach and pitch repertoire. For another, he went through an apparent "growing up" process where he was seen to be mentally soft/distracted, struggled results-wise for a season and most memorably in the '09 playoffs, and then "matured." So it's almost like it's acknowledged that Hamels caught lightning in a bottle in '08 and performed better than what his then-talent level deserved, and now has just happened to actually become a legitimate ace. It's kind of a Lidge situation, minus the ace part. Hamels can recapture a lot of the good will if we repeat this year, of course.

As to Lee, it's pretty obviously a continuation of the agony/ecstasy drama of the last two offseasons. People are just really damn happy to have him around again, and he's given them enough to cheer about.

[Bigot-to]

Reposted:

"It's actually hard to talk about Cliff Lee because there are no words that adequately describe him."

Sure there are.

Lee's monthly ERA splits:

M/April: 4.18
May: 3.78
June: 0.21
July: 4.91
August: 0.75

What can be said is this:

Cliff Lee is the Raul Ibanez of the pitching staff.

[Soso]

I hear you. And I agree that Hamels does not get the love he deserves. But there is an element of Lee's style that really plays in Philly, the ultimate example of which was when he cold-heartedly snagged that pop-up (without even looking!) in game one of the world series in the Bronx.

[crotchbat]

Lee is cool, Hamels isn't

[Edmundo]

Dan in Philly, nicely said. Lee just clearly LOVES what he is doing.

But there is a yahoo element to Philly sports that will always hate anyone who doesn't live up to their BS vision of externalized manliness and grit.

[Soso]

Edmundo: well said!

[Shane]

Hamels is great, don't get me wrong, but in a blue collar baseball town like Philly, 90% of the fans are going to prefer the tough gritty exterior of Cliff Lee over Cole Handsome. Cliff is John Wayne to Cole's Cary Grant. It's more the personality Phillies fans are in love with, not the player.

That said, Cole is having a tremendous year. He is and has always been one of my favorite players on the squad (drafted him 3rd in my fantasy draft and named team after him "C. Hamels Toe") and the Phillies should absolutely do everything they can to keep him in the red and white pinstripes for the next couple years.

[bay_area_phan]

awh: Good analogy. And it's why I suspect he won't really be in the Cy Young race when the dust settles on the season. The other 4 contenders all tend to be more consistent on a game in, game out basis, whereas Lee will probably have another so-so stretch that will bring down his overall numbers. Must confess, I'm rooting for Lee to stay hot & win it, though.

[lorecore]

big ot-to: If Lee's ERA was 13.50 one month and 3.00 the next, then he'd be Ibanez.

[MG]

BAP - How would Halladay not win the Cy Young today?

Wins - 15 (1st)
ERA - 2.56 (4th)
IP - 189 2/3 (1st)
CG - 7 (1st)
K/9 - 8.64 (7th)
BB/9 - 1.09 (1st)
K/BB - 7.91 (1st)

Kershaw is ahead of Halladay in 1 category only (K/9). Plus, Kershaw pitches in a pitcher's park and has had 5 starts against the 'offensively-challenged' Giants/Padres.

Halladay has been the best pitcher again in the NL and there is no doubt he should win if the voting were held today. His traditional/saber stats are just better than anyone else.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

"John Wayne was a f@g." - cruddy guy in Repo Man.

I'll take Cary Grant over John Wayne any day.

The whole Cliff Lee love thing has perplexed me for some time. I'm told women love him, too. I think I finally get it, though. He's just an entertaining player to watch. Pitching, fielding, hitting, baserunning. Plus, he works faster than anyone on the staff and nearly every pitch is a strike. His games are more fun.

[phargo]

"But in the end, isn’t it all about winning games..."

Not really. I know from previous BL discussions that I am not the only one who feels that there are some players out there who are pretty good, but I wouldn't want them on the team because they seem like high-maintenance jerks, or some other type of creep.

A winning team is wonderful; I am cetainly not going to pretend it's not more fun now than it was during the hard times. A winning team that is likeable and charismatic is even better. It's especially fun to watch guys who seem to be having fun, like Cliff Lee.

[Dan in Philly]

Cliff Lee would have fit in with the '93 team, to a T.

[phargo]

PS I think I pretty much repeated Dan in Phillys post, sorry Dan.

Also to clarify: I DO DO DO want Cole Hamels to remain a Phillie, and I appreciate having him on the team, even though I don't especially "like" him.

[Iceman]

Lee has barely had a (combined) full season in pinstripes. Hamels has been here through his entire career.

Give Lee a few more years and a few bad stretches at important times and see if the love affair continues. There was a time Ryan Howard could do no wrong, as well.

[Fatalotti]

Hard to believe that the Brewers are 23-4 over their last 27. That's a crazy dominant stretch.

[bay_area_phan]

MG: Their ERAs are essentially the same & Kershaw has been much tougher to hit (.211 BAA to Halladay's .248), has a better WHIP, and has the same number of wins despite playing for a lousy team. The CGs are nice but, when it gets down to it, it's not about CGs so much as overall innings pitched, on which they're again very close. And, when it comes to Cy Young metrics, I don't really care about K/9 and BB/9. I care about results, not style.

It's really pretty close to a toss-up. I wouldn't argue with anyone who picked Halladay.

[lorecore]

MG: Kershaw is tied with Doc in Wins and decimals points behind him in everything except K/BB.

He also bests Doc in WHIP and CGSO.

[Bigot-to]

Fatti, that is crazy.

I posted last week that I dislike the matchup with the Brewers moreso than any other potential playoff team.

Decent SP and a good offense.

[Iceman]

MG is right. I don't see how you can argue Kershaw is more deserving than Halladay by almost any measure. And it's not like that's an insult- Kershaw has been fantastic.

It's almost like the luster has started coming off Roy this year for Phils fans. He's still been the best pitcher in the NL this year, but since that's expected of him, it's just no big deal. I guess it's more exciting watching Lee catch a pop-up or hit the (very) occasional HR.

[Shawn]

As sexy as C___ L___ is, he still doesnt have a change up as sexy as Hamels'

[conshy matt]

"Halladay has below average range and a below average arm. I'm not sure who the guy charting UZR in St. Louis is, but I do indeed doubt the accuracy of his charts."

- clout

Doc's arm looks pretty good to me.

it's funny though, a major pet peeve of mine is when i hear people call Halladay Holliday. yet here, it happens in reverse.

[Marc]

I think the thing that hurts Cole is that '09 season where it seemed he didn't put out the effort and he made stupid faces on the mound after a bad play. It pissed people off. I think after this season, assuming they win the whole deal, that will finally go away.

Cliff Lee just looks like he is having fun making batters look stupid. He is just fun to watch. And he chose Philly over NY.

[MG]

I'll take Halladay over even Hamels over Lee if I am going to the park to see a Phils' pitcher on the mound this year.

Halladay is just the master craftsman of his era on the mound. Simply none better. Funny thing is that I have caught a few Halladay stinkers though including his one last year against the Brewers in Sept where he gave up a career high 4 HRs @ CBP.

I would argue that Hamels has better overall stuff than Lee too. Both have similiar arsenals (4-seamer, cutter, curve, changeup) with Hamels having one of the best changeups in the game and topping Lee's curve as a pure weapon. Hamels also can dial it up just a tick more late if he is right on his 4-seamer fastball.

Personally, some of my favorites starts to go the past few years are when Hamels is locked in and just turkey-shooting opposing hitters with his 4-seamer/changeup with the seldom curve/cutter mixed in to keep opposing hitters a bit off-balance.

[Phlipper]

Lee's performance for the Phillies in the post-season, the catch in particular - placed him in a category of his own, IMO.

Never seen anything like it.

[Bigot-to]

I find it interesting how pwople debate who the CY winner ought to be on August 23rd - with 6 weeks left in the season.

[conshy matt]

"Lee has only pitched two half-seasons for the Phillies"

- Drew Silverman

fact check?

i'd vote for Doc over Kershaw. they're pretty even statistically. if it's a push i give it to the player on the winning team first.

[Bubba]

Drew- Read the bible story of the prodigal son.
We love Cole , but we have never had to miss him like we did Cliffie.
We are still celebrating his return.

[limoguy]

Smart fans love them both and want them both on the team for the next several years. Lee plays to the crowd. Hamels does not. He is quieter. However, Hamels is quoted as saying that he thinks Philadelphia is the perfect fit and doesn't want to be anywhere else.

We are the most fortunate fans ever!

[conshy matt]

WAR really hates Ryan Howard:

1.2 (Mayberry 1.7!)
-6.1 baserunning
-4.6 fielding

is his baserunning really THAT bad? he's the 3rd worst baserunner in the league according to Fangraphs. i also think that his fielding is better than they give him credit for, but who knows?

[R]

conshy: I think Howard's basically an average fielding first baseman, and for most of this season, his UZR score had him at average or close to it; it seems to have taken a hit; it's a volatile, not terribly reliable stat.

Howard is a slow runner, is still not 100% recovered from last year's ankle injury, and I think he's been the one guy who Samuel has most hung out to dry on some of his highly questionable waves home, which cannot have helped his base-running scores.

Mayberry is being compared to other outfielders, not first baseman, is having a better season, and is anyway a better defender and baserunner.

[The kids are huge Cliff Lee fans]

To be honest, all the Phillie players are really really liked. Why it annoys some that their particular favorite isn't quite as uber-adored as a couple of others doesn't make sense to me because this happens on most teams in all sports. Cliff Lee has a special bond with the Philadelphia sports fan - young/old, woman/male that really can't be explained...only savored. He certainly doesn't toot his own horn and is an awesome teammate and friend to so many of his fellow Phils.

btw - here's a link to a pretty unknown side of Lee that does not get the attention that some other Phillies get. Cliff Lee, I'm sure could care less if he gets attention or not.

http://www.arkansassports360.com/22659/some-national-media-missing-point-on-phillies-cliff-lee

[curt]

I find it interesting people even care who the CY winner will be. It's a team game. Individual awards are just PR for the cold winter months.

[Drew]

Conshy Matt: I don't understand what you're saying. He pitched half the season for the Phillies in 2009 and has pitched half (OK, 3/4) of a season this year. Right?

[Old Phan]

BAP, if Doc and Lee are in the running for CY, why isn't Hamels in that discussion as well?

[TNA]

Since we've watched Hamels mature here in Philly, he's like a brother. We respect how's he's been able to mature, but we (act like we) know his immature past and are able to give him crap because we still remember things like him breaking his pitching hand in a bar fight.

Lee's like the revered stud athlete who can do no wrong. The best athletes to watch are those that perform effortlessly with glee and passion. As good as Halladay and Hamels are, you can see them exertion on their faces. Halladay has a grizzled scowl that signifies all kinds of pain he's going to bear down on the hitter. This year, Hamels has a singular look of total zen-like focus. Lee, however, always looks like he's smirking or chuckling. Happi-Lee, indeed.

What other pitcher so frequently beats you with his arm, legs, bat and then gives "make it rain" hand gestures after hitting a homer? None.

Halladay: Master craftsman who deserves the utmost respect. He's like the Pope. Inaccessible but revered.
Hamels: Brother who just happens to be good at pitching.
Lee: Stud athlete who guys want to emulate and girls want to sleep with. Happens to be a pitcher.

[conshy matt]

sorry Drew, my bad. i read that as 2.5 seasons. i'm an idiot.

[UD Hens]

They are both great pitchers. No need to contrast them.

[MG]

Kershaw vs the 'offensively-challenged' Giants (4 times)/Padres (1 time)

5 GS, 35 2/3 IP, 4-0, 1.51 ERA, 0.95 WHIP

vs the rest of the NL

21 GS, 148 IP, 11-5, 2.86 ERA, 1.05 WHIP

Halladay has had the benefit of only facing the Padres/Giants (Padres 2x) and he has similar results to Kershaw against them:

2 GS, 16 2/3 IP, 2-0, 1.62 ERA, 0.90 WHIP

Let's also take a look at the Home/Road splits:

Kershaw has been mortal on the road:

13 GS, 87 2/3 IP, 6-4, 3.39 ERA, 1.12 WHIP

Home:

13 GS, 96 IP, 9-1, 1.88 ERA, 0.92 WHIP

Kershaw is a very good pitcher and arguably the best young starter in the NL. He is benefits though from facing the Giants 4x times this year (worst offensive team in MLB except for the Mariners) and pitching in the arguably the 2nd best pitcher's park in the NL besides SD.

[NEPP]

If Kershaw keeps winning, I will bet that he wins over Doc if only because he's the new sexy pick...not because he's having a better year.

[Andy]

TNA - "Tousled, slightly gawky brother who just..."

[MG]

My take on Lee though is that when his fastball control isn't pinpoint or at 'full tult' he's fairly mortal. Halladay doesn't need great location on his 4-seamer to succeed and I would argue that even Hamels now is better prepared to get by without great location his fastball during an outing.

Still it is light debating what shade of light blue is superior. Do you prefer 'ocean mist' or 'robin's egg' instead?

[donc]

"I find it interesting people even care who the CY winner will be. It's a team game. Individual awards are just PR for the cold winter months.

Couldn't possibly agree more. The only thing more ridiculous is when fans obsess over the ASG.

[NEPP]

I think Selig should base home field advantage on which league's Cy Young has more 1st place votes overall...

[MG]

Cy Young:

If either Lee or Halladay wins, it is worth $100k. For Hamels though his base salary gets bumped up by $500k next year.

Yeah it matters especially to Hamels.

[NEPP]

How does his salary get bumped up if it hasn't even been decided yet? He will either go to arbitration or meet the Phillies in the middle...or theoretically sign an extension.

Will they just cut him a check for $500K no matter what and have it separate from his salary?

[circus]

bigot-o -

"I think gardner, holliday and crawford all lay claim to that 'best defense' moniker."

circus, you had me until you got to Holliday, and then the sentence crumbled.

Late response...believe it or not, Holliday plays pretty good defense in LF; over the last three years he's put together the third best UZR rating in LF, this year he is again 3rd in the league. Place what value you will on UZR...but I think its accurate enough when applied over multiple seasons to say that Holliday plays above average defense in LF

[Bedrosian's Beard]

I think donc and curt were separated at birth, or maybe never even separated.

[MG]

NEPP - It just gets tacked on to whatever his base would be next year.

[Phlipper]

MG -

"Still it is light debating what shade of light blue is superior. Do you prefer 'ocean mist' or 'robin's egg' instead?"

Is it really very different than debating which player "deserves" the Cy Young based on your metrics?

[circus]

In fairness, gardner and crawford are definitely the top two in the league; I threw in holliday more because I was surprised he played above average defense. didn't expect that.

[NEPP]

Then we should low ball him in arbitration knowing there's another $500K guaranteed.

It cant fail!

[lorecore]

I'd go Halladay Hamels Kershaw Lee in that order right now. With both Kershaw and Lee climbing fast.

re: Lee/Hamels

For anyone who follows the farm system, I can't imagine they'd favor Lee over Hamels. Cole might end up being the best Phillies pitcher ever drafted(maybe already is?) and it was awesome to see him come up through the levels and live up to his hype.

Yea he came up short in 2009 while Lee shined, but we got his best years under team control and the ONLY reason Cliff Lee is a Phillie today and tomorrow is because Cole Hamels won a world series and turned the Phillies into the hottest commodity in the majors ever since.

[MG]

Old Phan - He still is but he is behind Kershaw and Halladay yet.

Like Bigotto said though there are still about 5 weeks left in the season and each starter will still make at least 5-6 meaningful starts yet.

[donc]

Bedrock: I was raised by wolves so it's at least possible.

[Kutztown Fan]

This post on Metsblog is hysterical:

I think it's lame to have that many elite pitchers on a ball club, when most teams only have one. I think the Phillies are pathetic if they win less than 110 games with that rotation I will never concede this argument ever: it's just bad for the sport and unbecoming of the competitive spirit; I'm not suggesting commie baseball or anything but they are really pushing the boundries of fairness.

[MG]

Phlipper - No but you still have to pick a winner.

[NEPP]

Yeah, the Braves of the 1990s were lame-os too!!!

Mets fans are just sad.

[MG]

donc - Are you more like Remus or Romulus then?

[donc]

KF: That's tremendous. You'd think being a Muts fan that this guy would have heard of the 27 time world champion New York Yankees. But, I guess he hasn't.

[conshy matt]

"Phillies OF Raul Ibanez was a late scratch from the lineup on Monday against the Mets with "some soreness" in his groin, according to manager Charlie Manuel. Ibanez is being considered day to day with his injury. John Mayberry replaced him in left field."

good news?

[Kutztown Fan]

What a churlish post that was. Boo hoo. It's not fair. Their team is better than mine. Someone should pass a law against it.

[Fatalotti]

That Mets post is funny.

As long as you're playing within the rules of MLB (which the Phillies are), then you're not upsetting "competitive spirit".

Just a vaccuous comment.

As far as Lee/Hamels, I love both and love that they'll both be pitching in the postseason for the Phillies.

That's all there is to it, as far as I'm concerned.

[rk]

What's not to understand about the Phillie fans and Lee? I live in the Big Apple and I can tell you Lee's decision to go to Philly still both mystifies and pis$es off New Yorkers. Its this decision affirming Philadelphia over New York that has endeared him to the fans. Lee:" I would rather be in Philadelphia"! Nuff said.

On another topic, I just want to gloat a little more about Mayberry whom I have championed for a long time. Earlier this year I wrote that he could easily hit 15 this year and 20 to 25 next year and that should make us all very happy.
I am also not pleased that Brown is sulking in Lehigh. I sure wish there was a way to turn one fo these guys into an infielder but I know that is just fantasy.

[Old Phan]

KF, that would be a very eloquent post-from a 10 year old.

[cut_fastball]

What's the latest on Cole Hamel's shoulder? Is this shut down an isolated incident, or something that might indicate ongoing issues? He's rung up a lot of innings over the past 4 years or so.

[MG]

Mets have hardly an also-ran in the revenue dept. Their payroll was about $118M which places them 7th in MLB and 3rd in the NL. Just spent it incredibly-poorly (like the Cubs) and have been hurt by injuries especially to Santana.

[conshy matt]

rk - dig up the post(s) or it didn't happen!

:)

[CCB]

I have a 17 year old son who is a big Phillies fan - facebooks with his friends constantly about them, always begging to go to games .... but he also lives to hang out with his friends on Friday & Saturday nights away from home. The only exception is if Cliff Lee is pitching on a Friday or Saturday evening when he decides to stay home and watches the game with his Mom and me. It's a phenomenon that I don't quite understand but I'm not complaining. I love watching a Cliff Lee game with my son and observing his pure joy at watching his idol pitch, field, & hit.

[Will Schweitzer]

(haven't read the comments yet; responding to the Silverman post)

It really just boils down to personality. Phillies fans tend to identify more with a guy like Cliff Lee than a guy like Cole Hamels.

This is no slight to Cole. It's the same reason why John Kruk is beloved on equal par (or greater than) Ryan Howard. Howard is the better ballplayer, has brought a championship to Philadelphia and, by the end of his career, will nearly double Kruk's number of years in Philly, but Kruk is Kruk and personality goes a very long way in this city.

[rk]

conshy matt: OK tell me how and I will find them

[donc]

"donc - Are you more like Remus or Romulus then?"

Neither MG. I think I'm most like Clffton Phifer Lee.

[Joe]

From a poster on Metsblog: Enjoy.

"When we have 4 aces on our staff maybe we can expect to have a better number 5, but I am perfectly happy with holding it down until that day. However I think it's lame to have that many elite pitchers on a ball club, when most teams only have one. I think the Phillies are pathetic if they win less than 110 games with that rotation I will never concede this argument ever: it's just bad for the sport and unbecoming of the competitive spirit; I'm not suggesting commie baseball or anything but they are really pushing the boundries of fairness."

[rauls grandpa]

I think this is appropriate today, regarding Cliff and us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWHizpXlnaE

[circus]

commie baseball? yes...poor, small market teams such as the mets should be supported in a distributive system by the larger market teams. commie baseball.

[limoguy]

Just talking about Kruk brought a little smile to my face.

My favorite quote from him is when a lady asked him why he wasn't in better shape, being that he was a professional athlete and he responded, "Lady, I am a ballplayer, not an athlete." Or words close to that.

[circus]

and re: lee vs hamels...it definitely boils down to lee being a blue collar badass, and hamels sounding like a pre-pubescent child as he stands next to his trophy wife.

one lifestyle just jives more with philadelphia fans

[Mike]

I love both of them, and I take nothing away from Cole. But Lee just brings so many little intangibles that Cole doesn't.

I was obviously very happy to have Lee in 2009... but I got my first twinge of true admiraton in the 2009 World Series. I can't even recall who he was pitching to, but he got a Yankee to pop up to him to end an inning with multiple runners on. Getting out of the jam was one thing,.. The nonchalant little way he grinned and caught the ball by just flipping his glove to the side was as good as a middle finger at the Yankees dugout.. with just the perfect mix of class and subtlety. I laughed out loud.

We traded him away in the most classless manner possible. He heard about it from the television. When we approached him again and asked him to come back, most guys,.. the MAJORITY of people, would have told us to 'eff off. he didn't..

and did I mention when he came back he essentially told the Yankees to take their money and shove it? How do you not love that????!!!

He like to hit, and he hits well. He wants to be a baseball player and not a coddled pitcher. How do you not love him for that?

All he and his family, have to say is great things about Philly, how happy they are to be back in the fold, etc. We spurned him and his family and they've forgiven us folks,.. taken us back with open arms. I think part of the Cliff Lee love affair is the overwhelming urge to compensate for the wrong we think we've done him.

and you say you don't understand the love we have for Cliff Lee? really?

Cole is fine, but our experience with him is different. We watched him grow up and mature right in front of us. Yes, he helped us get a series, but we also saw him struggle the following year. We saw him show up his teammates in LA when they committed and error on his start. He is a good hitter for a pitcher but his style is a little understated,.. so he doesn't have that same.. exuberance on the field. That's cool since it works for him of course, but we're just talking perception here. Oh, and one other thing, the guy was doing Comcast commercials. I live in Richmond, so I don't have the Philly-affinity for Comcast... in fact I think its a truly crappy company with a truly crappy product.. Went to FIOS last year and it's like going from a 1982 Ford Taurus to a 2011 Infiniti... but I digress.

Anyway, at least for me that explains the difference. I'd love having both of them at my next cookout, but Lee is the guy I'd pick if I was forced to choose between the two.

[cut_fastball]

circus -- Wow. Cole 'I Gotta Ring and You Don't' can sound like Pee Wee Herman for all I care. What's incredibly important is Hamel's showing up in the playoffs; durable, with a plus fastball, his vicious change and evolving cutter.

If Cole is scuffling due to chronic shoulder injury -- and please note the use of the word "if" -- all bets are off on this season.

[Bigot-to]

circus, there were many comments after mine on the last thread regarding your "Holliday is a good fielder" post.

You should go read them, as they discussed UZR, etc.

[rauls grandpa]

I have a slightly different take than Will and it only muddies the water more.
I think these are different analogies.
I agree with the concept that Kruk is more "workman-like" thus more accepted here than Howard but I think Howard's contract somehow creates the massive rift between some fans loving him. If Howard had a big scruffy beard or fro and acted oafy like Thome, people would love him too. I think it is the smooth and effortless thing that Howard has going too that ruins him.
I think we have discussed the Hamels "pretty boy" issue to death but I think the fact that he is Cali-fied yet so serious also makes some fans dislike him.

And here is where the "smooth and effortless doesn't play in Philly" complaint falls off the cliff. Cliff Lee may have that giant contract but people like how he seems personable, approachable but catches balls behind his back and makes everything seem easy. He may not be the smoothest dude around but he doesn't seem to take much effort to produce the amazing performance (like Doc's master carpenter of pitching) and this should kill it for him here, but instead we still like him and appreciate the ease with which he plucks balls out of the air and strikes out everybody and walks off the mound. I like to call this the "James Rollins Paradox".

[conshy matt]

rk - try googling "rk AND beerleaguer AND mayberrry"

i found this one:

"As dumb as this move is, it is true that Mayberry gains nothing by sitting in the bench. That's what happend to Brown and MAyberry last year. Potential fulltimers just atrophy at the bench.

Its a very disapointing move. Mayberry has a much greater upside than MM, its a shame and they should trade him if they won't play him."

Posted by: RK | Friday, June 03, 2011 at 03:59 PM

to which BAP responded:

"RK: Anyone has greater upside than Mini-Mart. But let's not get carried away about Mayberry & upside. He is NOT a potential full-timer or even a particularly good part-timer. He's a 28-year old who couldn't even post a .700 OPS or .235 average when given a chance to start, and who has repeated AAA twice & seen his numbers go down in each successive year."

good start!

Posted by: bay_area_phan | Friday, June 03, 2011 at 04:04 PM

[Sabre]

Here's a fangraph-type link to pitchers with unusually lucky pitches this year in baseball which many on Beerleaguer will surely disagree with:

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2011/8/19/2371219/the-luckiest-pitches-in-the-majors-this-year

[Wheelchair Ambulance Chaser]

To our shortened memory Mets fans who have forgotten about these rotations:

1970 - Seaver, Koosman, Gentry, N. Ryan
1986 - Gooden, Darling, Fernandez,...

Sheesh

[Bonehead]

If he wanted to, Clifton could have been an MLB RFer, or an NFL TE, or an NBA 2-guard, or an MLS goalie, or........

[Bonehead]

If he wanted to, Clifton could have been an MLB RFer, or an NFL TE, or an NBA 2-guard, or an MLS goalie, or........

[conshy matt]

while looking for some old RK posts about Mayberry, i stumbled upon a thread in which Clout was championing the great Lastings Milledge, he of the 2 games played in 2011. i will never doubt clout again.

[Bigot-to]

I haven't been to metsblog since they ecreen the comments.

It's boring now.

Still, Mets fans just give us one more reason to dislike the Mets.

[john mcwilliams]

Cliff Lee has 173 regular season wins and 7 playoff wins. I don't know where the author got 20 and 4.

[TNA]

The Mets had their shot when they were loaded with Delgado, Beltran, Reyes, Wright, Santana, Rat, etc. But they quickly became one of the oldest teams in the majors and injuries/financial troubles/poor management caused their window to close rapidly.

If the Braves have enough money to keep their young guys, they are on the glidepath the Phillies are on now. The Phillies need to maintain elite revenues balanced with a strong farm system to keep on reloading in keeping the Braves at bay. It's why the next wave of players like Mayberry, Pence, Brown, and Bastardo are so valuable to this club. That said, the Phillies need to get lucky and need to start finding/developing another Utley-esque player soon.

[Jack]

There really isn't a single Phillies player who gets less love than they deserve, except potentially Hamels, as has been discussed, but I don't even think that's true after this season.

This idea that guys like Howard and Rollins aren't loved the way they should is insane. Everyone in the stadium wears their jerseys. Howard gets treated like a superstar MVP candidate in Philly, when most national fans/writers would tell you he's nowhere near that.

This is the Golden Age of Phillies baseball, and every fan recognizes it. The last Phillie to be underappreciated was probably Burrell, and he's gone. Everyone on this team is celebrated a ton, and justifiably so. Stop pretending like your favorite player isn't beloved by the fans--it just isn't true.

[john mcwilliams]

CORRECTION: 116 regular season wins

[Drew]

20 and 4 - Cliff Lee's wins with the Phillies. It's actually 21 now, BaseballReference hadn't updated when I pulled the original stats.

[Fatalotti]

Drew, you have to be aware of baseball-reference's updates when running these morning posts!

:)

[Drew]

Ha, for a site that I consider to be almost perfect, BaseballReference probably should update a little earlier than it does....