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Tuesday, August 16, 2011



Firstly on the topic at hand- that sucks about Hamels but hopefully this is something where missing a start or two now means he is good to go through October. Hopefully this is nothing that knocks him out for the rest of the year.

I couldn't let this slide from a thread earlier so I'm reposting it:

Just spitballing re: LoMo, but I think the situation changes a bit with what's left of the reserve clause (i.e. team control for 6 years).

He's with one of the worst, cheapest organization in MLB and he doesn't have a chance to shop his services to anyone else. So he occassionally says uncomplimentary things on Twitter. I can understand how that would annoy the Marlins, but his contract doesn't govern what he says on Twitter.

Similarly, the Marlins have no right (according to my reading of the CBA) to option him to AAA purely as a punitive measure because they don't like LoMo.

So if the Marlins are that irritated by his personal behavior they should either trade him or cut him loose, but they have no right to option him based upon his personal behavior.

What really makes it striking (to me) that that is what they are doing is that they have no stud prospects in AAA, or even any seasoned veterans, who represent an upgrade over Morrison at this point.


There are parts of this comment that are so stupid I can only think you were trying to be ironic as a form of comedy.

1.) I'm sure there is a personal conduct policy within his contract that offers that he can't speak negatively about the organization he works for. That is standard and it is in almost anything you sign to work with a company. So yes, they can govern things you say on Twitter if you are disparaging the company. Try talking bad about your employer in a company forum and see what happens.

2.) The Marlins have every right to demote him for his personal behavior. Missing team functions and bashing management are not good activities for a team that is trying to build and sustain a fanbase (regardless of whether Lo Mo is right or not on his comments in the latter circumstance). He is employed by them to carry himself in a way that doesn't besmirch the team and writing derogatory things on Twitter falls into that category.

And again- regardless of whether he is right or not, that is not for him- as an employee- to say. Let other people in the media and the fans say that stuff.

The second one speaks to a larger problem with our society in general, and how certain people use Twitter specifically. Just because you have free reign and forums, to say certain things doesn't entitle you to be a jerkoff. People need to use some discretion in what they say because to too many people Twitter is inviting trouble because they don't think about the consequences of their words before they say things. An intelligent person wouldn't have done with Morrison did here, and thus wouldn't have to face the consequences for it.

No surprise on Hamels choosing to side with a bit of caution but can the Phils make a freaking decision already about Polanco?

It amazes me how they will keep an injured guy who can't play on their roster and play a man down for more than a week at a time. I know they are pretty damn good but still . . .

What I said last night:

"Hamels is likely going to skip his next scheduled start. Moved up from 'passing interest' to 'slight concern.'. Still several steps from 'season=over.'"

Still at 'slight concern.' If Hamels goes on the 15-day DL with shoulder inflammation (and I have a hunch he does), then it moves up 2 notches to 'moderately concerned'

Rub some Tiger Balm on it, Cole

MG: Maybe the Phillies like playing a game of, "We're so good we only need 23 or 24 guys to beat you."

While many here have been navel gazing and pulling out their slide rules, I've been wondering which bat the Phils are going to end up getting before the month ends. Looks like Thome, Matsui and Giambi will all be available. Can't imagine Thome will clear waivers, so he likely won't get out of the AL. Matsui has already cleared waivers, so the Phils could trade for him. And Giambi isn't likely to get past a couple of teams in the NL who get dibs before the Phillies do.

I'm still thinking they trade for Matsui and pretty soon, although I'd rather get Giambi or even Thome to be the power bat lefty pinch hitter/dh.

I think heidi needs to step up her game and relieve Cole's arm of one duty that surely saps his energy.

Orr has been playing a lot of third base in AAA lately. They could actually use his speed and he'd be able to be that critical third utility guy (j/k.)

Between Polanco's back, his hip, and his sports hernia, I think my late grandmother could have made the decision to DL him a week ago. But then, she always did have a way with major league personnel moves.

Bring up Orr. Play Valdez and Minimart. Send down Francisco, and bring up a pitcher so KK can go back into the rotation of needed. And I think that's problem solved, depending on when Vic has his hearing and his suspension is decreased to two days.

If/when Polanco goes on the DL, I'll bet there's a decent chance we might finally get a look-see at Schwimer. Dom is better off staying at AAA and, with 2 backup 3rd basemen & Utley playing more or less every day, Pete Orr would be superfluous. And, with Kendrick making Cole's next start, we'd do well to have more than 6 relievers in our pen. I suppose they could recall someone like Mathieson or (more likely) Perez, but I'd rather see them give a shot to someone who has a chance to help in 2012. If they need to open up a spot on the 40-man roster, they can dump Mathieson, Naylor, or Zagurski, or move Blanton to the 60-day DL.

Grr. From what I read, the surgery on Polanco would sideline him for 4-6 weeks. So why the HELL didn't they pull the trigger on it a week ago? Nothing is to be gained by dithering and waiting probably at least another week just so a hobbled Polanco can limp through the meaningless remainder of the regular season and be just as sore and fatigued when it counts. What's the thought process here? If he'd had surgery a week ago and was out for a full six weeks, he'd still have some time to ramp up for the postseason and have a chance to contribute. As things are now, he'll probably come back, try to play hurt again, and put up a .260/.290/.350 line, giving us nothing of value.

Giants expected to put Beltran on DL
Editor's note
Giants expected to put Beltran on DL weeks before they even traded for him.

If Polanco hit .260 the way he has looked for the last three or so months, I would have to reconsider the existence of a supreme being. Not likely a hobbled Polly could come anywhere near that.

Assuming the Phils win the East, what are their chances to win the pennant?

DHPhils beat me to the punch, giving a 63% probability to win the pennant assuming a 65.5% probability of winning any given game. (I compute 62.45%, but close enough.)

More realistically, assume "only" a 60% chance of winning any given game. Now the chance of winning the pennant drop to 48%.

Getting to the WS looks like a coin flip. (Figures don't lie, but liars figure.)

circus: Maybe that's why the Phillies brought in Bush.

FFF: In reality, the odds are probably less than that, since they DON'T have a 60% chance of winning every individual game. In fact, there will be games in which they'll likely be the underdog --like road games in Milwaukee, Boston, or New York, for instance.

BAP: agreed.

Grr. From what I read, the surgery on Polanco would sideline him for 4-6 weeks. So why the HELL didn't they pull the trigger on it a week ago?

gelb has an article on his site saying that surgery will keep him out the rest of the season and postseason so whatever they said before was wrong

Phils should have someone like Pete Orr up. There seems to be little reason why Polly is not on the DL. He took some fielding practice today, but he's been out for a week. If he decides on surgery, he's gone for the year.

These are the options if Polanco is out:

Option A - .216/.258/.304 (Loves to swing)
Option B - .236/.282/.296 (Loves to hits GBs and GIDPs)

Then again these are Polanco's numbers since May 1st

.223/.280/.264 in 242 ABs.

He was 7-24 (.292 with a .612 OPS) though when he returned from the DL.

Either way the Phils are likely to get a minimum amount of offense out of 3B the rest of the year regardless of who they play: hobbled and injury-riddled Polanco or the hacker duo of Mini Mart/Valdez. No power with little patience.

BAP: I read your post too quickly. The "coin flip" probability was for getting to the WS, not winning the WS. No away games in Boston or NY unless we win the flip.

These odds show just how difficult it is for the best team to win a WS.

Phils should have someone like Pete Orr up. There seems to be little reason why Polly is not on the DL. He took some fielding practice today, but he's been out for a week. If he decides on surgery, he's gone for the year.

he is going on the dl

TTI: You are dead wrong. You CAN'T send down a player to AAA because you don't like him, you think he should show up at charity events or schmooze with season ticketholders, or because he's a general jerkoff.

That's why LoMo MAY have grounds to file a grievance. You can send a guy down to AAA for performance related reasons. You can't send him down because he thinks your organization stinks and has the temerity to say so.

Now go back to getting those kids off your lawn.

FFF: True.

st: If he has surgery, there's a good chance we've seen the last of him this season. I know there's a scenario where he could have surgery & be back in time for the post-season, but it's a "best case scenario." Besides, if he were to come back for the post-season, after not playing for 2 months, the results would probably not be pretty.

Heather, TTI: I would guess that a team can option a player down for any reason, or none;-- but I don't really know. Can either of you support your allegation?

In a surprising move from the past Rube had brought in David Bell to replace Polly for the rest of the year.

Polanco to the DL:

Cross him off the list.

For example, let's say Tim Lincecum says, "Brian Sabean is a crappy GM."

Do the Giants have the right to send him to AAA for that? Assuming it doesn't violate specific terms of his contract (which I'm not privy to), they don't, and Lincecum could rightly file a grievance and would probably win.

The question here is whether the Marlins demoted LoMo for being a jerk or for performance related reasons. Circumstantial evidence points to it for being a jerk, but there's enough plausibe deniability there that I doubt LoMo would win.

Heather - That's a fact though.

Typical MLB contract, section 3.(b):

...the Player agrees to cooperate with the Club and participate in any and all reasonable promotional activities of the Club and MLB, which, in the opinion of the Club and MLB, will promote the welfare of the Club... and to observe and comply with all reasonable requirements of the Club respecting conduct and service of its teams and its players, at all times whether on or off the field.

Giants send Beltran to DL; activate Tejada:

Tejada is hitting .242/.274/.334 and been a disaster at SS. With those kind of numbers though he would be the Phils' starting 3B!

Polly is going on the DL.

Polly also said he's not going to have surgery.

Perhaps the Phillies are into faith healing as a first resort now. That would explain the lapses between injuries and the eventual DL stints.

Hamels said he will begin throwing tomorrow. He said he isn't worried at all about his left shoulder. He expects to start next week.

Cole says he'll throw tomorrow, bullpen Friday, start Monday or Tuesday. So we can hold off on the panic until then.

It's great to be sitting on such a huge lead, makes skipping a start not such a big deal.

that's interesting. so he's basically missing only three days or so

Polly isn't going to have surgery but he is going to be a hobbled and offensively-challenged hitter the rest of the year

Fan from Fifty: LoMo checked with his player representative, Wes Helms, before skipping the event. Helms told him it was not mandatory that he attend the event.

Back to the previous question we were speaking of: I'm not a baseball lawyer (however, neither are any of you, so I feel I'm on safe ground). However, from articles I've read, and a perusal of the CBA, the CBA does recognize clubs might discipline their players for just causes. The punishments listed are fines and suspensions. You can't "discipline" someone by optioning them to AAA, at least by my reading of the CBA. This is presumably why the Marlins are using vague language and citing performance related reasons for LoMo's demotions. They know if they said, "We think LoMo is a jerk, and we are using optioning him to AAA to discipline him," that LoMo would file a grievance and win.

Anyone else who wants to persue the CBA can do so at's available as a PDF file.

MG: Correct, but he may still be superior to Exxon or Mini Mart.

Then again I guess Amaro figures he can win in the postseason with no offense from 3B. Hell, Feliz was a zero in the postseason in '08 and '09.

Feliz also was hurt in '08, returned on Aug 21 , and didn't hit a lick the rest of the way

.224/.295/.318 with 2 HRs in 21 GS

Gotta side with Heather on this one. A player with a major league contract can likely only be optioned because he's underperforming or someone in the minors is performing better. Otherwise there wouldn't even be discussion of filing a grievance.

You are wrong.

I don't claim to have read the MLB colective bargaining agreement, but I have immense difficulty imagining any non-government job in which you can publicly bad-mouth your employer and be immune from on-the-job repercussions.

Er . . . make that collective, not colective

Heather: Yes a, "get the kids off my lawn," joke. Shows right there the lack of intelligence you have on the matter.

As I said, I'm sure there is a clause in his contract that refers in some manner to not performing any action that is conduct detrimental to the team. So on that grounds they can demote him, or outright release him, if they want to.

By your logic the Cubs have no reason to disqualify Zambrano from the team but I would venture you wouldn't make that case.

You can't do what he did and expect to get away with it, and if that clause is there- which I'm sure it is.

Fan From Fifty- this is what is in a standard MLB Contract as reported in Business Insider in April of 2011:

* Players are paid on a semi-monthly basis once the regular season starts. So no paychecks during spring training.

* Players are to continue being paid even if they are absent from the team to fulfill their duties in the reserves or National Guard.

* Players are required to stay in "first-class physical condition" (sorry, Joba Chamberlain) and "pledges himself to the American conform to high standards...of good sportsmanship" (I'm not sorry AJ Pierzynski).

* The player is required to participate in any and all "promotional activities of the club...which will promote the welfare of the club" (so when players show up to photo-ops and promo events, they aren't necessarily doing it out of the kindness of their heart).

* Players are not allowed to "make public appearances, participate in radio or television programs...or sponsor commercial products" without the consent of the ball club.

* Players need approval of the Commissioner to own a stake in their ball club.

* Players are not permitted to participate in boxing, wrestling, skiing, auto racing, motorcycle racing, sky diving, or any game...of football, soccer, professional league basketball, ice hockey..."

* The team may terminate the contract if the player fails, refuses or neglects to exhibit "good citizenship and good sportsmanship or to keep himself in first-class physical condition," or fails "to exhibit sufficient skill" to remain a member of the team.

* If the contract is terminated the club must provide the player a first-class ticket (and meals) home.

* Players must be provided two full uniforms, but must provide their own shoes.

* Each player has life insurance through the league that pays $1 million plus 75 percent of their salary in excess of $1 million. The total is not to exceed $30 million and the club is the sole beneficiary.

Here is the full 9 page document that is standard in any contract

I would say the pertinent parts are #3 and #4 above to the Lo Mo situation. It also states that the club can terminate the contract of the player if the player neglects to conform to good citizenship.

TTI: You aren't nearly old enough either to use a "get the kids off my lawn" line anyways.

This is Feliz's line from the '08 & '09 postseasons:

29 G, 20-98 (.204) with 2 HRs and 4 BBs/21 Ks. Phils can get that from Mini Mart & Valdez.

If the Rockies couldn't cut Neagle over the conduct clause, the clause really has no teeth and is generally ignored.

There is no way that the good citizenship clause standard in athlete contracts are enforceable in this scenario. The Marlins know it, and that's why they are denying that it is anything but a baseball decision. That clause barely got the Falcons back their guaranteed money from Michael Vick.

I'm as surprised as everyone else that Heather is defending an outspoken player considering some of the ridiculous things she's said in the past about Jimmy Rollins, but all you've shown is that the team has grounds to discipline its players for non-baseball reasons. She is claiming that optioning a player to AAA is unlikely to be an acceptable method of discipline per the CBA. I agree. Will check now though.

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