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Monday, July 25, 2011


From the last thread, edited:

I find it laughable to think that all of these guys (Howard, Rollins, Utley) aren't celebrated as much or more than any Phillies players in history. They will all have their numbers retired on the Phillies "Wall of Fame," and all have been extremely well-regarded by fans for most of their career. All will be remembered for generations in the city as the team that brought a title in 08 (and hopefully 2011 and more). These guys' status as legends in this city is already cemented, and if they continue to win like this, they will only grow in stature. The idea that somehow any of them are underappreciated by the fanbase is simply absurd on its face.

Also, apparently appreciating a player's contibutions to the team means never criticizing him. Didn't know that.

Also, Mike Schmidt is apparently African American.

Or so I'm told since Phillies fans over-criticize their black athletes and idolize their white ones.

Jack - disagree. This board is generally populated by knowledgeable Phillies fans. For them to take the David Hale article and find use it to throw stones at Rollins suggests to be that his status a legend isn't quite cemented. Of course, these folks could be newbie fans that starting rooting for the Phils after they got good. But if you watched the Phils in the 80s and 90s, you have to respect everything about J-Roll, including his brashness.

I hope Ruben submitted re-alignment plans that move the Padres to the NL East

Looks like B.J. Upton rumors are heating up.

I find that fascinating. I think the guy is a really underrated player, but the problem is that so much of his value comes from playing great defense in CF, which is sort of redundant on our team. He'd obviously be an upgrade over Raul or Dom (look at his road numbers for the year: .285/.366/.475), but I'm not sure he's the best fit for us, given that he wouldn't be playing CF.

Of course, to the extent that it would deny the Braves the chance to get the best CF on the market, it would have an added benefit.

Jack, if BJ came here, he should be our centerfielder, and Vic should be moved to RF. Upton is one of the smoothest CFs I've ever seen.

I don't think race is a be-all-end-all factor in the perceptions of these players, but i do believe that it's a nuanced factor for more folks who admit it or are conscious of it. Rollins, after Schmidt, is my favorite player of all time. Utley always rubs me the wrong way but I really liked Rolen. Part of my bug about Utley has always been the way he is cannonized, but he is an awesome player. Call it Cal Ripken syndrome.

I will say Rolen v Utley is a fascinating case. Always thought that Rolen's political beliefs got him on the wrong side of the media from the start and they did him no favors because of it. Utley, of course, benefited from the flip side of that effect.

Otherwise the similarities between two hard-working, quietly-effective players is pretty remarkable.

BJ Upton does nothing for me - He's got skills for sure, but I've always viewed him as wasted talent. Certainly not the missing piece to a title contender.

Spitz: The people making comments about Rollins' interview are probably the same clowns who got worked up about Ryan Madson's wife.

So yeah, there's a few idiots. But generally, I don't get the idea that these guys are underappreciated by the fanbase as a whole. They're all legends, and fair criticism saying "man, I wish he'd take more pitches," or "he's just not as good defensively as he used to be" doesn't change that. At all.

Spitz: Quite frankly, J-Roll reminds me of Curt Schilling. I didn't care for his "brashness", either. Even so, I wouldn't argue against Schilling being one of the best RHP in Phillies history any more than I'd argue against Rollins being the best SS in Phillies history.

Drew: Agreed.

"But if you watched the Phils in the 80s and 90s, you have to respect everything about J-Roll, including his brashness. "

No you don't. I can admire Roger Clemens as a player while saying he's a cheater and jerk. I can admire Alex Rodriguez as perhaps the greatest SS of the past 50 years and think he's a colossal jerk.

I can admire Rollins as one of the best Phillies players of the past generation while still admitting I wish he opened his mouth less.

fata: I think what Jack is saying is that Yes he'd help the Phillies - but nowhere near the amount it would for a team like the Braves.

Moving a CF to a corner spot helps that position, but not like it would for a team who has an empty CF in the first place.

Why should the Phils try to trade a package that rivals another team's when the value he actually brings to the Phils is less than some other teams would be getting.

I think what bothers people is that Rollins pretty clearly views baseball as a business and his next contract as purely a business decisions.

This is both a smart strategy and exactly what any agent wants to hear. It's also the last thing fans and management want to hear. They'd prefer he say he's a Phillie for life and will give a hometown discount. And as much as I'd like to hear that, he'd have to be a complete sap to say it.

lorecore, yeah I'm not big on bringing Upton here, but I was just saying, if he did come here, Vic would relegated to RF and CF would belong to Upton...or at least, that's how I'd do it.

Absolutely Heather - I see your point! Because doing steroids and cheating on your wife with an underage girl is equivalent to suggesting your team is the one to beat in the NL East.

From the previous thread:

aksmith, one of my problems with the article is that the writer compares Howard to other 1B - and if he's half-enough educated about the players he discusses, then he MUST know Howard is a notorious finisher.

So where's the validity of using partial season stats to compare Howard to other 1B? Does it make sense to you?

The dope doesn't even get Howard's salary right. The $25 MM doesn't start until next season.

Lazy, lazy, lazy...and an obvious attempt to knock Howard (who does deserve it sometimes), using incimplete stats just to make a point.

It's intellectually dishonest.

As I posted above, I don't believe Howard is the best 1B is MLB. Pujols, AGon and Miggy are guys I would rather have.

But I don't support trying to knock ANY player using incomplete info.

To conshy'd point above, this is what Howard has done in Aug/Sept/Oct in his career:


104 of his 272 HR have come in just those 2 months. 301 of his 823 career RBI have come in just those 2 months.

To compare Ryan Howard on July 25th to any other player at his position is no different than comparing only the last 4 months of a Chase Utley season to other 2B. That would be disingenuous at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst.

Now, on to the game.

Upton is more like a long-term project than a guy who's going to help you right now. That makes him a long-term project who hits .230 right now, and who's only under contract for one more year. No thanks.

Heather: The point being argued to you is that JRoll opening his mouth and brashness is part of the reason why the Phillies' attitude/clubhouse became what it is.

It's like saying I appreciate Schmidt's HR totals, but i dont like how he tries to hit for power.

From what I can tell from your comments on this site, you dont' believe in clubhouse/team chemistry at all - so obviosuly you discount Rollin's role as a team leader and the swagger he brings - but there are many others who do and thats the point they are trying to make.

I think what bothers people is that Rollins pretty clearly views baseball as a business and his next contract as purely a business decisions.

Posted by: aksmith

It's not a business, it's his career - which some could argue is a business.

Think about your own career as an example. You've been somewhere you like for 10 years and you love it, but you know you're underpaid. The promotion/raise cycle comes around, do you tell your boss you're willing to take less in salary because you like working for him? Of course not. You want to get the maximum money on the table and then use your new salary as a basis to evaluate if you want to stick with the organization. Do the pros outweigh the cons?

Why some feel baseball is any different than any other average Joe's career baffles me.

Howard peppering LF lately. Good sign.

aksmith: Quite the opposite. I'd say it's pretty freakin' dumb to emphasize one's aches, pains & decreasing utility in a contract year. Furthermore, I think it's monumentally ignorant to make a specific point of your lack of energy when your major endorsement deal is for a damn energy drink. If I'm J-Roll's agent I'm not pleased at all.

Howard out by a mile.

anyone watching able to describe the play of Howard being gunned at the plate? -thanks.

bap: Do you have any thoughts on Upton's road splits?

I think he'd be a gamble, but I think there's a good amount up upside on the gamble for this season. It all depends on the price, obviously. I'm not giving up Dom Brown for him, but if the cost is one of the Clearwater prospects, plus one of the AA/AAA relievers? Sure.

Dom. #facepalm

they're doing some 'analysis' now, it was a bad call by Samuel, but it looked from far away like the ball got away from the outfielder as it bounced, but it bounced right into his feet so it stayed there. allowing him to throw howard out.

That ball has to stay in front of Dom.

What happened on that play? Gamecast doesn't really tell much.

plenty of things to still complain about as the phils roll along with best record in baseball: 1) samuel's continuing awful third base coaching 2) brown's just shockingly bad defense in right.

also, really bad pitch by lee with the pitcher on deck. fastball with a big part of the plate. his location is iffy early.

"Utley always rubs me the wrong way but I really liked Rolen. Part of my bug about Utley has always been the way he is cannonized, but he is an awesome player."

Interesting. I wouldn't dare compare Utley and Rolen. Rolen obviously was part of losing teams and a park that broke dreams, but he consistently reminded the fans of how brutal the conditions were as opposed to leading and remaining optimistic while encouraging his teammates. Rolen was a child, much like a young Lindros. That's why I see him as a loser and Utley as a winner and a professional. Not discounting Rolen's defense which still continues to be his strength and maybe it is easier to associate with Utley because of the circumstances but Utley has a shot at the Hall and Rolen does not.

Utley is currently 4th all-time for 2B with 19 multi homerun games. I know that's just a random stat but it's still impressive. I think Utley makes play look so smooth so it's easy to infer his quiet, stable play as distant, but really he's just that good. Again, I can't see how the guy rubs you the wrong way especially juxtaposed to Rolen who is pretty well defined as a (insert your negative label here) everywhere.

Chase is a great teammate and is a leader in all facets. He vocally loves playing here and granted I know who wouldn't love playing here in this era but he definitely does not rub me the wrong way.

Giving up a double with a man on third with one out and the pitcher on deck is disappointing.

Kyle Farnsworth could also be an interesting 7th inning piece if the Phils and Rays are talking.

Upton, Pence, or Beltran?

Does anyone else feel like Domonic Brown is going to break his wrist every time he dives for a ball? I'm not sure I've ever seen an outfielder bend his elbow such an awkward way every time he dives. (He also bends his arm strangely for fly balls too.)

Jack: Rather than allowing the ball to fall in front of him for a Single, Dom decided to try for the Web Gem diving catch. He missed.

GTown, I'd say it's because people generally can't see how making $15 mil in a year as opposed to $10 mil is going to meaningfully affect your lifestyle, whereas making $80k as opposed to $60k (a "normal person" scenario) represents a big, tangible difference. Plus which when it comes to a case like Werth, where a player goes from contender to dead-ender, that's a baffling choice because you have to figure someone who cares enough about baseball and has the talent to make a career out of it is going to care a lot about getting a championship.

Cliff does not have full tilt today. Defense isn't helping him either.

Jack: Those road splits look like a sample size anomaly to me. Upton's a 'tweener to me. He's got big upside, but he's not good enough right now to be a meaningful upgrade & he's not under team control for long enough to be of much future benefit.

Lee looks like crap.

Sleepwalking Phillies...

There's more to Upton than just his defense. His 15 HRs would be second on the team, and 9 more than any other RH bat we have.

I'd probably still take Pence or Beltran before him for this year. But, he would make the Phillies starting 8 at least as good as last year's club.

Something tells me Lidge sees his first action today.

b_a_p already posted the same thing, but it bears repeating: Lee looks like crap. Total crap, even.

Nothing wrong with Dom diving there. Risking a base for an out there is fine, especially with the pitcher up.

Well this game is going well.

bap: Upton's splits are way more pronounced this year, but he's also a better hitter for his whole career on the road.

Home: .249/.338/.402
Away: .263/.344/.420

It's not huge, but that road line would fit in better in our lineup than either Raul or Dom right now. Plus the defense (our corner defense is horrendous right now). I think he would qualify as a "meaningful" upgrade.

Typical Phillies. They are allergic to sweeps.

Padres aggressive on the bases and it's working for them.

Upton? BJ Upton? No thanks...this team doesn't need another sub-300 OBP OF striking out in 1/3 of his ABs. We've already got 1 of those in LF.

damn...4-1 already, guess the Padres aren't gonna die easily

Wow, this is terrible. Don't care as much about having a bad game against the Padres, but it looks like the BP is going to get used up before the Giants coming to town tomorrow.

Lee is getting torched by a pitiful offense. Ugh.

why is Kyle Kendrick starting tod...oh wait.

Maybe because I'm not watching this mess unfold, but I still think the Phils will win this game. Harang blows and the Phils just flat out own the Pads.

Lee is a guy with a very fine line between being dominant and being terrible. If his command is even a little bit off, it can get ugly very fast. Fortunately, it's rarely off.

looks like a lot of rain coming. maybe Lee would have been out early today anyway?

Phillies pitchers also don't appear to show a lot of interest in holding runners. When a team decides to be aggressive on the base paths the situation can unravel rapidly.

I'm with Spitz. Don't care at all about losing a game. Do care about using up bullpen pieces before Giants series.

Although, maybe a blowout loss would end up being OK. Get Lidge an appearance, soak up the innings with Herndon and Carpenter, and give Stutes, Madson and Bastardo the day off.

But think of the run differential, Jack!

There are fans who don't like Jimmy Rollins? really?

Wow, way to give Lee a breather by taking some pitches, offense...

On the bright side, at least we have something to complain about today.

Steve: thank goodness. I didn't know what to do with myself earlier today. I was getting all fidgety.

Time to pull out my "Damages" DVD's!

Give me upton. I have been saying this since winter hot stove. I think that a change of scenery will help this guy. Put our leaders in his ear and I guarantee he will be a steal and put up numbers like he did in 08. Plus add his speed and glove with Vic in outfield and that will really help out this team. Pence will not be traded so let that dog rest. I don't want a rental at the cost of one the baby aces.

I hate turning on a game late to find the Phils already behind.

Slot is way off for Mr.lee

Looks like herndon and Carpenter are going to get some work today.

Lincoln, I usually feel that way but after watching the first couple of innings consider yourself lucky.

I believe the latest update from Fatalotti was that the Phillies are scoring 4.69 runs per game since Utley returned. So if Lee can somehow settle down and put up zeroes for about 5 innings, we've still got a good chance to squeak out a 4.69 to 4 victory.

Rain moving in, anyway we can get a rain out?

Rain's comin'. The Phils should slow things down & hope the front stalls over the Ballpark.

Padres are uber aggressive on the basepaths because they have to be because of their crummy lineup but I am surprised that besides the Mets I have seen more teams employ this strategy against the Phils.

The real question is whether teams willing to employ a more 'higher risk/higher reward' approach.

Meant in the postseason.

guess Jimmy didn't have much energy so he decided to work the walk.

Red Bull Gives You Patient At-Batsssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now would be the time for Howard to do his thing.

A hit here and we're back in business.

Hoping that rain postpones the game when you're down by three runs in the third inning is the mark of a true championship team.

LA is right. JRoll looks like he still has that gimpy hamstring and isn't at 100% on the basepaths.

trade for Mike Adams and get DeNorfia thrown in.

72 pitches after 3 innings? WOW

Another runner taking second on the wild throw from the outfield - that is three times in the past two games.

wow 10 hits already

Phillies not playing clean baseball today and the Padres are beating Lee up.

They need to get Lee out of there. He simply has nothing today & it doesn't seem to be getting any better.

When Lee goes bad, it is ugly.

Via Twitter:

Ugly, ugly start. The info I got on #Phillies Cliff Lee waking up with the flu was spot on. He's absolutely getting pounded by the #Padres

This Denorfia dude is a one-man Phillies killing machine.

There was a thread a while back where we were talking about faces in the majors that you just feel compelled to punch.

Aaron Harang has one of those faces.

This looks like Lee vs the Giants in the World Series.

Ugly, ugly start. The info I got on #Phillies Cliff Lee waking up with the flu was spot on. He's absolutely getting pounded by the #Padres

Posted by: Dickie Thon

Why put Lee in there with the Flu? This is like the game where Doc was having troubles ... just pull him. Not worth it.

Is it really only the 4th inning?

Good thing we already won 3 of 4. If it gets out of reach just let herndon pitch them BP for a few innings and call it a day.


And I thought the Phils defense looked bad today....

Karma just caught up with Denorfia.

If Mini Mart wasnt a Philly, I think I would want to punch him in the chops.

Alright Chooch, knock this run in and we're back in the game.

This settles it. Don't trade for Ludwich. He's an injury risk.

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