Turn back the clock: The Phillies’ last trip to Seattle

The Phils’ series in Seattle marks the team’s first visit to the Emerald City since June 2005. In case you’re sick of having (yawn) Cy Young Award winners like Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee and (ho hum) postseason heroes such as Cole Hamels and Roy Oswalt, let’s take a trip back in time.

June 14, 2005 – The Phillies lost 3-1 in a game where they managed just three hits – all singles – against Gil Meche and Eddie Guardado. Jon Lieber allowed three runs in eight innings. The Phils scored their only run when Bobby Abreu walked, stole second, and scored on a single by Jim Thome. Among the hitting stars for Seattle that day was Raul Ibanez, who went 2-for-4 with a double.

June 15, 2005 – Jimmy Rollins led off the game with a single against Aaron Sele, stole second, and scored on a base hit by Abreu. But that was it for the Phillies’ offense as they suffered a 5-1 defeat. Vicente Padilla allowed home runs to noted sluggers Ichiro Suzuki and Randy Winn. Ryan Madson put the game out of reach when he gave up a two-run shot to Michael Morse. Abreu had three hits for the Phils, while Chase Utley (batting sixth) had two hits in a losing effort.

June 16, 2005 – The Phillies won 3-2 in 13 innings on a sacrifice fly by Tomas Perez. Brett Myers worked 6 1/3 solid innings before giving way to Rheal Cormier, who allowed the tying homer to Ibanez in the eighth. Ugueth Urbina, Madson and Geoff Geary then came on before Billy Wagner worked the 13th for the save. Rollins had a career-high five hits in six at-bats, including a double and a triple. David Bell went 0-for-4 to conclude an 0-for-11 series. Sounds about right. For Seattle, Richie Sexson went 0-for-6 with four strikeouts. Sounds about right.

What has changed: Well, pretty much everything. The only constants with the Phillies have been Rollins, Utley, Madson and Ryan Howard. Oh, and the fact that Beerleaguer still writes some mean recaps. Check out this one from Phillies-Mariners 2005, when BL was just a toddler learning to walk. That story got just two comments. These days, Beerleaguer gets more comments than that every time Charlie Manuel looks in the direction of Michael Martinez.

Comments

[timr]

Who could tell back then that the Phillies and Beerleaguer were both going to become such powerhouses?

[jh2]

Can you reopen comments on that old recap? I have a few things I would like to say about that series.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

I went to the game in Oakland the following Sunday. Showed up a little late and missed Rollins lead off the game with a homer. I did see teh estimable Kirk Saarlos shut them down for a 2-1 win. Got a cool free hat, though.

[Drew]

Not mentioned in my series lookback: Pat Burrell, Kenny Lofton, Endy Chavez, Jason Michaels, Ramon Martinez and Aaron Fultz.

[SLO Phan]

Hmmm...I hope this isn't the game day thread. What's the team's record when a former player (wearing his Phillies uni) is shown in the pic?

[bay_area_phan]

If you track back one day earlier from the linked thread, you can find a thread with exactly one comment. The comment suggests we move Madson or Robinson Tejeda into the starting rotation and trade "Howard, or whomever" for a reliever.

[CJ]

Wow... just went back to look at Beerleaguer in its infancy.

The 5th post in the site's history is about J-Roll's struggles in the leadoff spot and whether he should be replaced.

The more things change...

[Hugh Mulcahy]

That's hilarious, CJ.

[R.Billingsly]

Ah the good ol' days. What every happened to Jess and el123chico? I miss them.

[The Theory]

The sad thing is that, even though I wasn't reading this blog back then, I am pretty sure I remember a couple of those screen names from when I DID start making this my common go-to site for everything Phillies.

I like retrospective posts like this. Nice job, JW.

[Mal]

J. Weitzel on Ryan Howard, 6/15/2005: He can hit, but should have been traded this offseason to capitalize on the buzz.

[Scotch Man]

YOU MEAN BARRY ZITO IS COMING TO THE PHILLIES?

(Sorry I tried to comment on the '05 post)

[Dan in Philly]

schadenfreude:
Braves Bullpen In Danger Of Extreme Overuse
http://www.talkingchop.com/2011/6/17/2229232/braves-bullpen-in-danger-of-extreme-overuse?ref=fangraphs

"In the past three games the Braves bullpen has thrown more innings than their starting rotation. That's why tonight's spot start by Randall Delgado could not come at a worse time for the Atlanta Braves bullpen."

[clout]

BAP: Proving the level of intelligence has remained constant.

[conshy matt]

"Julio Franco's birthdate is suppossedly August 23, 1958 (if you believe him).

That makes him only 46 yr old."

from the June 17th entry. BL's were racist back then, too. paging Will Schweitzer!

[lorecore]

Dan: Although those 3 games are just a small snapshot, they do provide more of a big picture problem for the Braves - their relivers IP have been skyrocketing all year - and their starters have actually been pitching great so far. Imagine when they start struggling, their pen will end up running into these same problems again and again.

[conshy matt]

oh, this one is a gem!

"Tonight I plan on making sweet love to my blog. It will be hot and intense.

Thanks, fine readers, for making Beerleaguer the buxom blog it is today."

- JW

and i thought this was a family blog!

[CJ]

My walk down memory lane on Beerleaguer landed on this unfortunate post:

Phils get Urbina in three-player swap

Ugh.

[J. Weitzel]

Anything in the archives before 2007 opens a can of worms that shouldn't be opened. Thanks, Drew.

[Cyclic]

6/14/05

"And a note: The conventional wisdom is that Philadelphia athletes are unhappy and will bolt town at all costs, especially when it comes to the Phillies. Here’s another long-term signing to prove that notion false."

Turn and face the strange
Ch-ch-changes!

[CJ]

A 2005 post about the Jimmy Rollins 5-year extension suggested that 5 years should be plenty of time to develop J-Roll's heir at SS.

Um...

[Dan in Philly]

CJ, you would think 5 years would put some heir on JRoll's chest..

[Demon Nick Brown]

Interesting tidbit from JW on June 15, 2005 talking about the need for a SP:

"So here it is: The Phils No. 1 bargaining chip is top slugger Ryan Howard, who's nice insurance if Jim Thome’s back gives out again. Howard’s value was never higher than it was this winter after slugging 46 minor-league home runs.

But after struggling in limited time during his call-up, blamed mostly on bad mechanics, the Phils kept him in Scranton instead of brining him along on this interleague road trip. It may have been his only chance to see the light of day this season. In fact, he may never see the light of day in Philadelphia.

The Phils won't admit it, but Howard’s stock is dropping by the day, almost to the point where his value may be greater as insurance for Thome. The Phils will need to relinquish more than just Howard to get a proven starter to town anyway, but I’m still in favor of shopping him. There are teams, such as the Astros, that need a slugging first baseman and may be willing to overspend. You never know."

Some may argue the mechanics are still an issue, but I'll take #2 in the NL in RBIs any day.

[Highland]

"J-Roll comes around to score on an RBIiii double by Bobby Abreeuuu" - HC

[Willard Preacher]

A trip down memory lane, to be sure. Further scrolling through the 2005 threads and I find this gem from our esteemed Webmaster:

"Beerleaguer: Readers of this space know I’m a fan of catcher Carlos Ruiz. He had some great slugging numbers in Reading and it continues this season up in Moosic. On paper, it certainly looks like he has a chance to produce in the majors, at least as a backup.

What are your thoughts on Chooch? Is he healthy, and does he figure into the long-term plans of the Phils?

Chad Jennings: I would call Carlos a guy who intrigues the Phillies. I don't think they are banking on him as their catcher of the future, but he's certainly done enough to keep the team's attention."

Can be found here: http://www.beerleaguer.com/beerleaguer/2005/07/prospect_watch_.html

The lesson? Chad Jennings needs to be ridiculed, called names and endlessly berated for being so, so wrong about his prediction.

[Bonehead]

Phils don't have a legit DH. So, IMHO, over this weekend, Cholly should rest Uts, J-Roll and Polly by DH-ing them, and playing Valdez/Martinez in the field.

[CJ]

Check out this from a June 27th post from Jason:

"Gammons quotes
Peter Gammons in his latest espn.com column: "Whomever designed that park in Philadelphia was an idiot." I was thinking the same thing watching Manny Ramirez's pop fly sail out yesterday.

Gammons also reported the Phils called the Toronto Blue Jays about a deal involving Ted Lilly for Ryan Howard but the Jays refused."

************

Ted Lilly for Ryan Howard? And the Blue Jays said, "No." Wow.

[Willard Preacher]

Bonehead, not a terrible idea. If Gload can't really run, I'd prefer him not DH'ing. So, if you have to use Valdez/Martinez (preferably just Valdez), why not let Uts and Polly just worrying about hitting? I kinda like it.

[CJ]

By the way, every DH conversation right now should start with, "How do we get Raul Ibanez out of LF at Safeco?"

[Cyclic]

There should be one time capsule post per month. This is fun.

[Willard Preacher]

Good point, CJ.

Though, I'd prefer to have Ibanez not just out of LF, but out of the lineup altogether, especially on the road, where he's horendous this year. Couple the late start where he's up past his bedtime and it could get ugly.

That said, we don't have the depth, so yeah, you're right, get Ibanez's "glove" out of there.

[Willard Preacher]

The elephant in the room, digging back through all of these old posts, is that clearly 2005 might as well be 2005 b.c. (before clout).

[Willard Preacher]

(sadly, I'll probably now spend the rest of my day going post-by-post, trying to find clout's first ever Beerleaguer comment)

[bay_area_phan]

The Bobby Abreu trade threads make for amusing reading too. The following, while certainly not the most amusing post from those threads, is made considerably more amusing when you consider who wrote it:

"[Victorino] is no longer a prospect. What you see is what you get: A below-average OB, good speed, good glove .260 hitter. Fine for a 4th outfielder, but not close to a quality everyday player." clout

[lorecore]

BAP: Proving his level of intelligence has remained constant.

[Highland]

eh, dowp -HK

[awh]

Wow, even clout could be wrong?

Who'da thunk?

[Willard Preacher]

Wow, even better than finding clout's first ever post, BAP comes through with a post where clout actually makes a hard and fast prediction on a player!

BTW, "finding clout's first post" expedition on temporary hold after stumbling across a post about Rheal Cormier. I need to take a break after that and figure out how to stop gagging.

[Fatalotti]

At least clout is never a poster who would endlessly berate someone else for being wrong about their prediction's regarding players....

[CJ]

Looks like Jason may have inadvertantly started the "This game feels like a loss" by writing this in a July 25th, 2005 post about a game vs. Andy Pettite and the Astros:

Tonight’s game has loss written all over it.

[Dan in Philly]

The real elephant in the room is this: What are we, or our inheritors at BL, be saying about this and other threads in the year 2017?

[CJ]

Here's a gem from Jason on July 27th, 2005:

"I read somewhere that the Phillies are interested in Tampa Bay closer Danys Baez."

Just a few years early...

[Fatalotti]

DIP, to ensure that future readers truly enjoy such historic threads such as these, we should go out of our way to over react to every thing, post some real hyperbole regarding roster decisions, individual ABs, individuals pitches, bullpen management, trade deadline options, intra-divisional rivalries, and general baseball musings, and just overall, post some crazy sh!t.

Basically, just keep doing what we're doing...

[awh]

CJ, LOL!

[Willard Preacher]

Any chance that mvptommyd's real name is Tom Goodman? They appear to have the same posting frequency (adjusted for overall % of posts).

[The Theory]

"Tonight’s game has loss written all over it."

Now all we need to do is find the start of "season=over".

[lorecore]

I think Season=Over is well documented to TheDudeduring the 2007 roller coaster.

[The Theory]

Oooh yeah. I remember TheDude.

Ah, the good ol' days.

[lorecore]

Venters(42)/Kimbrel(34)/Linebrink(27)/OFlaherty(32) come to average 34IP a peice.

The Phils reliever with the most IP? Danys Baez with 31 - which includes his 5 IP miracle in the Valdez game.

[Willard Preacher]

FOUND IT!

As I can tell, here is clout's first ever Beerleaguer post (6:55 PM): http://www.beerleaguer.com/beerleaguer/2005/11/phillies_sign_f.html

Ironically enough, it was a post challenging Abe Nunez's general worth as a free agent signing. Vintage clout. Great stuff.

[Fatalotti]

Venters is on pace for 97 IP this year. Good god!

[Willard Preacher]

And, what the hell, one more link. While we're discussing what's probably the end of "Scott Mathieson: Elite Prospect," we should probably re-visit a time when this phenomenon was born (back in 2005): http://www.beerleaguer.com/beerleaguer/2005/12/mathieson_finis.html

[lorecore]

Last reliever to throw 97IP or more innings:

Scott Proctor for the Yanks in 2006, 102.1 IP in a league high 83 appearences.

Since 2000, only 11 pitchers have done so, and probably most like Venters would be Arizona's Byung-Hyun Kim in 2001 - who had a breakout year at the age of 22 with a 10.4 K/9 and a 1.041 WHIP as a setup man.

[f4f]

"Ted Lilly for Ryan Howard? And the Blue Jays said, "No." Wow."

i believe the pirates' dave littlefield rejected receiving howard in a trade TWICE in 2005 - once for kip wells, the other for kris benson.

it's just too funny in retrospect.

[lorecore]

So as a Phils fan - here's to Venters matching Kim's career path:

Pitching himself into a closers role, handling it great for a year, then being moved to the rotation, and fizzling out the next season and then demoted back to pen where he lost his stuff, bouncing from team to team trying to give him one last chance to recapture glory, but never finding it.

[bay_area_phan]

Reading through these Beerleaguer archives is kind of like breaking into a bag of potato chips. Once you start, it's hard to stop.

[Dan in Philly]

I found this prediction to be amazing:

"I really think that we're going to end up with Halladay, Lee, and Oswalt to compliment Hamels in a few years" - Dan in Philly June 30, 2008

I sometimes amaze even myself...

[Willard Preacher]

BAP, it truly is fascinating reading.

I especially love the random comment some 6 years ago or so that basically said "What is WARP?" as what we now know to be WAR (Heather is all too familiar) was just being socialized into baseball.

[CJ]

A precursor of things to come?

Beerleaguer *shattered* its record for reader comments on a post entitled simply, "Bobby." The subtitle?

"Beerleaguer attempts to define the Phillies' most debated star."

And so begun a lead never to be matched by any player before him or after him.

Bobby Abreu, Beerleaguer's finest.

[Willard Preacher]

I'm just SHOCKED to read all of the comments insinuating that ownership is a bunch of cheapskate tightwads, not willing to spend to make the team better.

Did this really happen???

[Willard Preacher]

No doubt that Bobby Abreu winds up on the Beerleaguer Wall of Fame, without question.

Never before has a Phillies player been so polarizing.

And only since has Kyle Kendrick approached that level of polarization.

[Willard Preacher]

And Lake Fred enters the scene in December of 2005.

Reading these plays out like some twisted homicidal thriller movie.

[Dan in Philly]

Just re-read a few of those old posts. Back then I went by the handle "pawnking" Anyone remember me?

[CJ]

2005... what a great year for Beerleaguer to emerge. It really is the season that I believe defined these Philadelphia Phillies. Utley gets out from under the platoon. Howard gets his long-awaited callup and mashes. Madson becomes a reliable reliever. Rollins gets his 5-year extension. Hamels is promoted to Double A. And, more importantly, this team makes its first late-season run to try and win a playoff spot. It was repeated (and came up short in 2006) before J-Roll's prediction in 2007 came true.

[Dan in Philly]

Wow, just realized I was the asshat who suggested we trade Howard for a pitcher. I also said this:

"Whatever faults Manuel may have, he has a winning attitude, and doesn't panic when things are going poorly. Bowa would have exploded 5 times already this season, and grandstanded, and made the whole story about him, not the team.

My vote for the best offseason move is Manuel, because it was 2 for the price of 1: getting a good manager, and getting rid of a terrible one. "

One out of two ain't bad...

http://www.beerleaguer.com/beerleaguer/2005/06/nl_east_poll_re.html

[CJ]

After the 2005 season, Bill Conlin suggested Ryan Howard learn to play LF so Burrell can move to RF and Abreu to CF.

Can you imagine a worse defensive OF in the history of baseball?

[Willard Preacher]

Put me in the camp who chalks up JW's Feb 26, 2006, 1,300 word header introducing/scouting Sal Fasano as some of the finest writing ever put on the interwebs. I can't believe he didn't get a Pulitzer nod for that.

At any rate, I imagine Sal has it printed and framed on a wall in his den.

[Bonehead]

Phillies Wall of Fame:

Phuture Inductees: Schilling, PtB, Abreu
Maybe: Thome
Not Quite: Dykstra, Wild Thing, Ricky Bo, Wolf, Myers, Wagner, Lieberthal, Glanville, J-Dub

Phillies Wall of Fame, Current Team:

Phuture Inductees: Uts, Ryan, J-Roll, Vic, Chooch, Cole
Maybe: Lidge, Madson, Doc, Clifton
Not Quite: Polly, Raul, Blanton

[Dan in Philly]

If the Phils win the WS, Doc and Cliff are shoo ins.

[Bob]

Great perspective from the past, it does get a bit ho-hum watching the four aces do their thing. Sarcasm off - it's really amazing watching Halladay pitch, then knowing that game after game it will be followed by three other guys capable of putting the same kind of hurt on the other team.

Although I have been frustrated over the offense until recently, I can honestly say I have never taken what the pitchers are doing so far this year for granted.

I do recall the time of Lieber being the staff's ace, with Myers breaking through from time to time with a decent performance. I remember being kind of excited when the Phils got big Jon, thinking they were lucky to get a WS tested Yanks pitcher, even if he was far from a Yankee ace. Nothing for nothing, I liked Lieber and appreciated his efforts, but glad to be way, way past those days.

[Bonehead]

More, Phillies Wall of Fame:

Phuture Inductees: Cholly

Not Quite: Fregosi

[f4f]

when leiber was on, i loved watching him pitch. worked super fast, great command.

[Willard Preacher]

BTW, absolutely BRILLIANT move by JW to stimulate the regular readers into driving up site traffic and page hits by having them comb through the archives on a day with a late game time.

I suspect that the Drexel Lebow MBA program is already scrambling to increase their marketing budget to write Weitzel a bigger check.

[HammRadio]

@Willard -- I was wondering what JW was going to do. With an early game on thus and late game on Friday... that's an off day...

What to do What to do.

Solid move.

[clout]

I was definitely wrong on Vic and definitely right on Nunez. Also right on Feliz.

[Willard Preacher]

"I was definitely wrong....." - clout

That's it. There's nothing more to see here. Internet is over.

[HammRadio]

man...that was fun... looks like the first time i ever posted was in August of 2005 after the blog was featured on phillyfuture blog aggregator site.

right around the time the beerleaguer black hole was first discovered/coined.

by the end of the month... made it into a post regarding Ugeth Urbina and blown saves.

My favorite post (and second ever) during that first month stretch:

"Abreu in the leadoff spot? Please forget that. Consider: Against Mark Prior today... First Inning. GRAND SLAM.

Case Closed.

Abreu is a middle of the lineup player. Anywhere except an All-Star team.
"

Memories. Posts with maximum of 8 comments and nary a snipe at one another. Fun.

Now I will re-examine my life where i've been posting comments on the same blog for almost 6 years.

[The Truth Injection]

I wonder what my first post was on Beerleaguer.

[Willard Preacher]

I did notice that the word "egregious" wasn't used anywhere close to enough back in those days. I'm glad we've addressed that.

[JJG]

CJ,
But to be fair to Conlin, he was resolute in urging that Howard stay in the organization -- that his hitting was too unique to surrender, even with Thome blocking him at first.

Obviously, the LF idea was desperate (one I believe the Phils even tried in Spring Training/minors) and quickly proven to be untenable. But Conlin was never more right in doggedly urging to keep Howard, in the context of dilemma with no good solutions where thankfully the Pirates turned down Howard for Kip Wells.

[Willard Preacher]

A gem:

Is there a major league team with baserunners slower than the Phillies? Who would win a race between Burrell, Bell, Lieby and the Phanatic?

Posted by: clout | Wednesday, May 03, 2006 at 04:41 PM

[Scotch Man]

Howard for Lilly? Yikes!

[whitey]

Going through some of the old posts, here is a comment in June 2005 (how times have changed):

"The thing that scares me is if the Mets ever get their act in gear, they will be hard to beat with all the money they are going to have once their TV network gets off the ground."

Posted by: Tom G | Tuesday, June 21, 2005 at 04:20 PM

[Mike G]

This has nothing to do with turning back the clock, but some interesting developments in the NL east. The Marlins have sent 2009 ROY Chris Couglan down to AAA, and the Braves have placed Tommy Hanson on the 15 day DL.

[rauls grandpa]

Having never been to a minor league game in the Phil's pharm system, I have to ask, when Justin Friend makes an appearence do they play Biz Markie's Just a Friend?

[CJ]

I think I found my first comment on Beerleaguer. It was during a Game Chat on April 4th, 2007:

"Shaky first inning for Cole... I thought he was squeezed on one of the pitches to Chipper... and it looked like Andruw was out for a double play... but he got out of the inning with no damage nonetheless."

For some reason, I didn't return to comment until April 11th when I launched this gem:

"I feel amazingly comfortable when Alfonseca is pitching. Maybe it's by comparison..."

[CJ]

Whoa... just stumbled across a comment from me on April 13, 2007:

"Completely off-topic... what's the interest in Brad Lidge? He's got an arm... but is his head shot?"

It was such a mind-blowing suggestion that absolutely no one responded. I figure I felt rather insignificant then... at least clout could have called me an idiot!

[CJ]

On April 18th, 2007, Jason concluded a post with this: "Isn't it time for the front office to realize the Phillies have outgrown Charlie Manuel and stop a bad situation from getting worse?"

At the time, the Phils were off to one of their worst starts in history and Charlie had just tried to throw down with resident jack8ss Howard Eskin.

[Kutztown Fan]

2005 wasn't that long ago, but it seems like a lifetime

[dlhunter]

The origin of my nom de guerre, from the heady days of 2007: a pandering attempt to force the minor league celeb poster of the day, the Inqy's "attytood will", to acknowledge me. It worked.

Now where did clout find his name?

[MG]

"Feb 28 on amazon.com. Be sure to use the link I've provided on the right. Maybe I can make a nickel off this site for once.

Posted by: J. Weitzel | Monday, December 05, 2005 at 02:42 PM"

Come a ways since pimpin' links on the right to Amazon to earn a nickel here or there. . . .

[aksmith]

I think Clout not thinking much of Victorino is very much about not seeing a player in his development. I was able to see a good bit of Vic in the minors and was thrilled when the Phils grabbed him. I also screamed out loud when Wade tried to give him back.

And Vic has been everything I thought he'd be in the majors.

On the other hand, I did not see Chris Roberson in the minors and only saw his speed. Thought he'd be good in the majors and I couldn't have been more wrong.

It's important to remember that when trying to evaluate minor league prospects having never seen them play.

[CJ]

Finally found my first "fight." It was with Alby over how much effect Adam Everett had on a game the Phillies won. Alby wrote: "A little hint for you, sport -- if you're going to pick fights, quote your opposition correctly."

He called me "sport." That's funny. And his advice is the most universally ignored advice on Beerleaguer.

[clout]

aksmith: Had you seen Mini-Mart play?

[EastFallowfield]

Yo, new thread

[TheTheory]

Looks like my first post, from the beginning of August 2007, was a question about the weather in Philly, since apparently it had been raining cats and dogs in Lancaster.

Neat.