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Thursday, June 30, 2011

Comments

Feels like a loss.

Glad Hamels didn't get the loss at least.

Why is it the Phils don't score for him?
Bad luck perhaps.......?

I enjoyed watching Brian Wilson blow another save in Chicago.

Hopefully that was Carpenter's cameo for the year and they can send him down now and bring up Schwimmer.

The struggles of Zagurski, Mathieson & Capenter should give people serious pause before they annoint guys like Schwimer & DeFratus the future saviors of our bullpen.

That said, based on his minor league success, I do think Schwimer deserves a shot. But I thought the same thing about Carpenter & Zagurski.

BAP-

Its smart to give guys who are succeeding in your minor league system, a shot.

Carpenter earned a promotion by doing well in a relief role, for a 1st place AAA team. Now its up to him to do something in Philly.

Herndon was the problem today. That and the pop-gun offense. Not Carpenter or Mathieson.

Schwimer, DeFratus and Aumont are much better prospects (as far as pure stuff and ability to potentially succeed at the ML level) then Carpenter or Zagurski ever were.

"The struggles of Zagurski, Mathieson & Capenter should give people serious pause before they annoint guys like Schwimer & DeFratus the future saviors of our bullpen. "

Eh...I dunno. Did you expect anything from those three this year? If you did, you may be the only one.

Did anyone annoint Stutes a future savior of the pen, at this time last year?

Sometimes, you never know.

I'd rather them give innings to Carpenter, Mathieson and Schwimer then wasting theirs and everyone else's time with Baez and Romero out there. Baez should have been cut in December and Romero should have been cut after his suspension last year. But because they are "grizzled" (or "old"), they are given multiple chances to suck.

The guys from AAA get about 2 shots and that's it. If they fail in either of those 2 auditions, they are deemed not worthy of a major league mound. And they only return if the Phils have no other options.

We've got a great pitching staff. Quit bitching if our 6th and 7th men in the pen, actually give up a run or two to the best offensive team in baseball. That is what is statistically supposed to happen.

You think that was bad, I knocked my johnson against radio console during the 3rd.

If you saw Schwimer's L/R splits, you'd understand why he probably shouldn't be called up right now:

vs LHB: 5.28 ERA, .308 BAA
vs RHB: 0.31 ERA, .121 BAA

His SO/9 ratio is good either way but LHBs are hammering him right now.

denny: I don't disagree with any of that. I, too, thought Zagurski & Carpenter deserved shots based on their AAA work this year. Zags didn't work out & Carpenter probably won't either. So be it. Now we know.

I also thought Stutes deserved a shot and, so far, he has worked out. My point was that these guys are wild cards. Sometimes you catch lightning in a bottle, but most of them are going to flop, no matter how glossy their minor league numbers look. It's ultimately a numbers game &, for that reason, it's nice that we have 4 or 5 decent looking bullpen prospects right now. But it would be a serious mistake to believe that more than 1 or, at most, 2 of these guys can be helpful to the major league team any time soon. The odds say that is unlikely.

More Schwimer splits:

vs LHB: 11.15 SO/9, 4.12 BB/9, 1.761 WHIP
vs RHB: 11.35 SO/9, 3.07 BB/9, 0.750 WHIP


BAP-

Of course they are wild cards. But you have to play those cards and see how it works out.

Not everyone is going to work out, obviously. But someone like Carpenter, with a pretty dominating 2 months of work out of the LV bullpen and a ability to throw multiple innings, was an easy choice to move up.

I just think it makes more sense to roll the dice with a young or unproven guy as your 6th or 7th bullpen guy, then a guy like Baez, who we all know about and know what his ceiling already is (it came about 2005, I think).

Maybe you find a Stutes. Maybe you don't. Some crumble when they get to the big stage. Some look non-plussed by it all (like Stutes, Kendrick and Worley did). But you have to at least try them and find out what you have.

The issues of this game run much deeper then what Drew Carpenter did when the game was 3-0 in the 8th inning. Issues that have been going on with this team for most of the year.

Zagurski is one, who just cannot seem to translate what he does in AAA and what he does in the majors. His lack of command always comes back to bite him and he seems to look nervous.

He had a golden opportunity this year, but couldnt' throw enough strikes. They already had a LOOGY who fit that category (who is now gone). They didn't need another one. And Perez could very well be the same way.

Zagurski's got a mediocre fastball and a very fringy slider that hangs way too often.

Hamels was due to pitch again on Tuesday in Florida.

If he doesn't go, I am not sure what they will do. Worley pitches Monday. Kendrick on Wednesday.

Mathieson never got stretched out at Lehigh (he only made one start and threw 3 innings). Carpenter has been pitching in the bullpen all year.

Maybe they go with a bullpen game. Or maybe they promote somebody (JC Ramirez is the only guy I can see, who is already on the 40 man). Neither one are particularly appealing options.

If he misses his start on Tuesday, he'll likely be back (and would have started this game anyway) for the 1st half finale against ATL on Sunday.

Apparently, you didn't catch the announcement that Hammels will be good to go on his regular turn on Tuesday, Denny.

Of course, I'm not one of a gaggle of "fans" who would insist that if the injury to Hammels' occurred on his glove hand that he should have "gutted" it out and continued pitching this afternoon.

I must admit, living near the heart of Red Sox Nation, that the Boston jinx in all sports continues. I had been anticipating listening all late afternoon to as many sports talk stations as I could find, and relishing in the angst of callers with their doomsday rants about the Sox having reached the shores of armageddon. But, no, they salvage one game in the series thanks to pure, dumb, blind luck in having the estimable David Herndon give up the obligatory go-ahead runs in an inevitable loss.

It ruined the rest of my day. Mind you, I've put up with the ignominy of crushing losses to my Philly teams over the decades dealt by the Red Sox, Bruins, Patriots, and, in particular, the hateful Celtics.

mainerob, Ruben said after the game that it wasn't a 'slam dunk' that Hamels takes his next turn in the rotation.

Hmmm, EF. I don't know where I read it, but it certainly sounded almost as certain as grandma, apple pie and a Chevy on July 4th.

Why bring Schwimmer up to if he will only pitch once every week or so? Why not let him develop in the minors?

No one really thought that Hamels should have stayed in the game, right?

From metsblog, posted without any self awarenes:

"Is it me or was Jose Valverde a little too excited about getting preserving a three-run lead?"

I'd have thought Hamels would have the hand xrayed in the locker room after the fourth inning and be back on the bump for the fifth. As a fan that's sure what I wanted to see.
But, no reason to do that in June, however.

What we saw today was Herndon at his worst. And we saw Carpenter throw four pitches in a row up and over the plate just begging for a homerun. Then we saw Mathieson with a really straight fastball and secondary stuff he couldn't locate.

Neither of those pitchers is a prospect at all and expecting anything other than what we got is unrealistic.

And we saw what happens to an offense when you start two zero tool players as your corner outfielders. And that's what the Phillies literally did. At best, I think you can give Ben Fran half a tool for speed. He now has average speed. But that's being generous. What we saw from Raul yesterday was the high water mark for the season. He found the one guy he can hit with authority and he did. Other than that he needs to sit on the bench. Behind who I have no idea. But it's likely that Dom in right and Mayberry in left would give you better defense and a better chance to actually hit the ball every game than Benny and Raul.

For Reference:

Hamels with 1 M

Schwimer with 1 M


Schwimer occasionally shows up and writes posts for Phuture Phillies. Seems like a cool guy. I look forward to the day when he's pitching for the major league team and shows up on Beerleaguer to defend himself after we all say how much he sucks.

Mini had a strong at bat today. Almost got the ball out of the infield. Should keep him around atleast another month.

Thank goodness Cole doesn't own a tractor.

grandpa - But he'll probably re-injure the hand lifting the dog into its little back-packy thinger.

I see that Scott Kazmir went to Texas to workout, perhaps he or one of the recently waived former major leaguers recently released can fill in next week while Cole heals.

"The struggles of Zagurski, Mathieson & Capenter should give people serious pause before they annoint guys like Schwimer & DeFratus the future saviors of our bullpen."

Bullpen rookies get hit around in one game against the best offense in the AL = serious pause.

RF rookie stinks up the joint in every major league opportunity = Keep him up. Needs more at bats. No better option at this time anyway.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense.

Blue Jays SS Yuenl Escobar just hit Matt Diaz in the ribs while taking an easy double play ball at 2B. Instead of throwing to 1st for the easy second out to end the inning he kept the ball in hand with his arm and body low and deliberately belted him. Diaz was not hurt but it was the most selfish play I have seen in a long long time. No wonder the Braves traded him mid-season. What an arsehole.

Mike Cameron dfa'd. Anyone?

I'd offer him a minor league deal right away... see if he's still motivated

http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=6722677

Will, do you even understand the slightest bit about minor league prospects?

Also, this wasn't Andrew Carpenter's first rodeo. He's been up before with mediocre results. Andrew Carpenter has been nothing but a fringe, middling prospect who can come up and give you a spot start in dire circumstances if needed, or be filler on your roster if injuried multiply.

Dom Brown, on the other hand, has been rated as an all world prospect for years, was rated #1 last year, and has the tools to become a truly great player. Maybe he never will...we don't know that.

But the fact that you don't see how Carpenter (or Herndon, Mathieson, Stutes, etc) and Brown should be treated and viewed differently makes all your past ranting and raving about Brown seem all the more foolish (and it seemed pretty damn foolish beforehand).

Will S needs a hug.

I think they'll be in on Cameron, I thought Billy Ripkin had a good point today on the MLB Network we all know he hasn't gotten that many AB's this year and is in a platoon, but what LH pitchers is he facing? Billy said it, he's facing cream of the crop LH's CC's, Price, Romero

And Mike Cameron, the 38-year-old career .249 hitter? I think we've seen enough dead men walking in the outfield this season...

Will: I wasn't talking about today. Carpenter, Zagurski & Mathieson have all had multiple chances & flopped each time. And, as NEPP says, the idea that Domonic Brown and Mike Zagurski deserve to be given equal chances is pretty zany.

We need a corner outfielder who is actually better than the ones we have. We do not need another equally crappy one to throw into the mix.

b_a_p: I'm beatin' this drum until it happens or I'm dead (close call at this point...). If Brett effin' Myers can get sent down in ’08 and get it "figured out", send that gutless POS Francisco and his "1/2 tool" down 1 more time (1 option left) and let John Mayberry Jr. fail for the 2nd time.

Fer Crissake, at least Mayberry plays great defense and bats RH. It's a dreadfully long haul until the deadline, and we got humiliated by professional hitters today. BTW, Francisco ain't a "professional" hitter. Or even a competent one, at that. Mayberry gets his arms extended and hits it out, or very far.

Let Mayberry do that for the next 4 weeks. Unless your "showcasing" Ben “0 – 4 with lousy defense” Francisco. Good luck finding a taker.

aksmith is right that in Francisco and Ibanez, we have two OFs that, if you combine their skills, have about a 1/2 to 1 tool between them. Why not take a flier on Cameron? It can't get much worse.

The same with middle relief, with the way the injuries are piling up. You might as well bring the youngsters up because you can't do much worse than Carpenter, Mathieson and Juan Perez. Or Herndon. Might as well give Schwimmer a shot and see what he can do. By sticking with Mathieson, you are basically saying you'd rather have a sack of crap instead of seeing what's behind door #2 because by choosing the sack of crap, at least you know what you're getting. And Mathieson is a sack of crap.

One thing is for sure- I'm sure glad Brad Lidge isn't around. The farther away he is from this team the better!

Didn't I see the RF rookie who stinks it up at every opportunity help us beat ace pitcher Josh Beckett the other night?

Guess it didn't count for some reason?

And there it is!

cut: I'd call up Mayberry too -- although I'd use him to replace Martinez, not Francisco. As much as Francisco sucks, he's a viable RH bench bat. Martinez isn't.

Has anyone else noticed the number of people on Hamels for leaving the game? Ridiculous? http://jstolnis.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/leave-cole-hamels-alone/

Er . . . I credited the wrong poster. Was not NEPP who said that not all prospects should be treated the same. Was Fatalotti.

BAP, you are the second poster to confuse my handle with NEPP's. CJ did it alst night as well.

Falalotti....NEPP

They don't look that similar, do they?

thanks, john. odd that no one commented on that essay.

"By sticking with Mathieson, you are basically saying you'd rather have a sack of crap instead of seeing what's behind door #2 because by choosing the sack of crap, at least you know what you're getting. And Mathieson is a sack of crap."

The Phils had no other viable option then bring Mathieson up. They needed a pitcher capable of going multiple innings, when Kendrick moved back into the rotation. He's really the only guy at LV (who is worth a damn) who you could go to.

He just might have to start Tuesday's game in Florida.

Everybody wants to run these new players out the door, as soon as they get here, if they don't look like Cy Young (or even Chris Young) in their first or second outing.

Mathieson's thrown all of 5 2/3 innings in the majors since he got hurt in 2006. He's actually thrown 4 scoreless (albeit shaky) innings this year for the Phils.

Plus, I think its gotta be hard for the backend bullpen guys on this team to stay reasonably sharp. We saw Kendrick look awful in that extra-inning game against Milwaukee earlier in the year, when he hadn't pitched in forever. Baez has thrown all of 5 2/3 innings in the last 26 days (and has pitched twice in the last 15 days). Mathieson hadn't thrown a pitch in about 10 days until today.

Yes, some would say those are excuses. But one drawback of having such a great starting staff that goes deep into games most nights out, is that pitchers 9,10,11 and 12 on your staff barely see the field. And then when you need them to come through, we get upset when they aren't sharp or don't mow down the opposition.

Underworking your pen is obviously preferable to overworking them. We'll see teams fall apart in August, because their bullpen arms will wear out. So you can't fret that. Our bullpen is set up well for the stretch run. Madson and Contreras are getting rested up now. If Lidge comes back and gives them anything, that's just one more bullet. And you just might see Oswalt out of the pen, come playoff time (if that is all his balky back will allow him to do).

The key to the whole season has been and will remain the health of Halladay, Lee and Hamels. They stay healthy, this team will likely go far. One of them goes down and all bets are off.

What did this series teach me?

Next to nothing about either team or especially about October. Today's game featured Hamels getting knocked out in the 4th, only 3 likely Oct starters for the Red Sox, and a host of Phils' bullpen pitchers who won't even be on the postseason roster.

Phils won 2 of 3 in a series frankly where they should have won at home. Red Sox offense isn't nearly as potent on the road this year (road OPS over 100 pts lower) and they ran into an opposing starter (Lee) who is having one of the best hot streaks in MLB baseball history.

Impressed

Really thought this team was going to scuffle starting with the Seattle series and through the ASB.

They lost the Seattle series but since then have won 3 straight series with an overall 7-5 record. Given the mounting injuries, that's just fine.

Wrapped up June at 17-10 (a month they have typically done an 'El Foldo' the past few years). Braves despite having the best record in NL in June at 17-9 only picked up .5 on the Phils.

If the Phils had lost 2 of 3 or been swept, I'm sure people would have had a lot to say about this series. What it told me is that the Phils rise to the level of their competition and that they can beat the AL's best. It may not be a revelation, but it's good to see nonetheless.

MG- you predicted the Phils would be awful over the Mariners-ST. Louis-Oakland-Boston-Toronto-Florida-Atlanta stretch to end the year and that the lead would be basically gone by the AS break. So far they are are 7-5, winning their last three series, one against a team you said would come in here and beat the crap out of us.

So really, it taught you nothing?

June

April showers bring May flowers and usually some mediocre baseball in June for the Phils under Cholly.

2010: 13-13
2009: 11-15
2008: 12-14
2007: 15-13
2006: 9-18
2005: 15-12

This was their best June since June '03 when they went 16-9.

Iceman - I said they would be .500 and likely a game or two under and that the lead would be 2 games or less going into the ASB.

We'll see how it end up.

Blue Jays should be interesting. Team that 'swings for the fences' and has 51 HRs in 37 G at home.

Offense though really is just Bautista & Lind. Keep a lid on those 2 guys, Phils will win this series.

MG- I see this next series as a possible letdown series. But if Hamels stays on track for his next start, they should roll over FL and set up the Aces for the Atlanta series, at home, to take us into the break. It's a pivotal stretch, no doubt. You still think they will lose that last series to Atlanta?

I'm not sure if what Boston trotted out this weekend constituted the AL's best. A good team, sure, but not the best. No Crawford, Papi only in one game, and Youk missed the finale. We didn't see Bucholz, and Beckett was coming off not having pitched in 13 days and was recovering from the flu.

Certainly still a worthy opponent, and a good series win by the Phils. But IF we were to meat this team again in the WS, assuming everyone is healthy for both teams, the rosters and games would look so much different, as to render this series nearly meaningless.

What did we learn? Cliff Lee can shut down the Red Sox? Already knew that: he can shut down anyone when he's on. Cole Hamels can't take 100 line drives to his bare hand? Figured on that one beforehand? We can hit Beckett a little bit? Knew that too. Other than the fact that we had some rookies step up in a big way on Wednesday night, not much was gleaned.

Well, other than the fact that with all these injuries, our bullpen sucks!

Of course, we didn't exactly trot our best either

Iceman - Depends on the matchups but yeah I could see them losing 2 of 3 right now with a pretty depleted bullpen to the Braves.

Call it 5-4 going into the break over the next 3. Really don't care if they lose the series to the Blue Jays this weekend (and think there is a decent chance they do) as long as they win the Braves' series.

Bad thing about the NL standings right now from the Phils' perspective is that the Giants are leading the NL West & Braves are the wildcard leaders. Lots can chance in 3 months but those are the 2 teams that I absolutely don't want to see the Phils face in the postseason because both of them would give this team fits.

Ideally the DBacks/Rockies make a run in the 2nd half to knock out the Giants of the playoffs. Best case scenario for the Phils.

I missed the game today as I have a job. Hamels hasn't come out yet but, he obviously got stung. predictably unpredictable loss. Kinda pissed they're playing 4 straigth day games.

Please pardon that unintelligible post. Just watching the replay and coming to grips with Herndon taking over in the 5th. Rude awakening.

I'd rather not play the Giants and/or Braves in the playoffs either. But I'm pretty sure both of those fan bases would say the same thing about the Phillies.

"Falalotti....NEPP

They don't look that similar, do they?"

You have similar writing styles & tend to have similar views on things. And you're both among the 10 or 12 people who are here virtually every day. I guess that's why you're easily confused with each other.

Hamels should of definitively come out of the game. Why risk him out there to another line drive or him attempting to field another ball an further aggravate the situation. I never been a fan of Drew Carpenter. Of the lot Mathieson, Zagurski an Carpenter i like Mathieson the most. Zags look to nervous out there. Schwimmer will probably get a look at when the season is coming to an end. Unfortunately most of the Phils games this year are close to give these guys an inning or two. Stutes was the luck of the draw. Im sure maybe only 2 people on this board thought he would be up doing what he is doing this same time last year. I dont think Stutesy was even a top 10 prospect.

"But the fact that you don't see how Carpenter (or Herndon, Mathieson, Stutes, etc) and Brown should be treated and viewed differently makes all your past ranting and raving about Brown seem all the more foolish."

Bastardo was referred to by one column in comparison to Santana and it has been mocked on BL for months afterward. Now, he's our interim closer and a key element of the bullpen, and he's absolutely lights out dominant.

Brown was hyped endlessly by drooling Beerleaguers who have the mistaken impression that all top prospects become studs and no one other than a top prospect has any shot (or should even be compared to a top prospect).

Meanwhile, in two chances, Brown has been a flop and Bastardo has stepped up to the challenge.

So yeah, I don't give Brown special treatment. He gets the same consideration as any other minor league prospect. The only value his (or anyone elses) minor league stats and hype have are in his trade value.

Will: Bastardo being the next Johan should still be mocked. Santana was one of the top 2 or 3 STARTING pitchers in the league for a length of what, 5 years. Bastardo has been a nice bullpen piece, but I could find probably 2 dozen other bullpen guys with better numbers, another 2 dozen with similar numbers. Your attempts at painting yourself into a smaller and smaller corner on Brown are just silly. You disappear when he has a good game and show back up when he goes 0-3. You're apparently not going to change your mind that unless Brown is an instant all-star he should be in AAA and everyone else here thinks Brown should be given the shot to succeed or fail at the big league level. So find something else to gripe about.

Jbird--"Bastardo has been a nice bullpen piece, but I could find probably 2 dozen other bullpen guys with better numbers, another 2 dozen with similar numbers."

Really? I'd like to see your list.
I'm not a big stats guy... but when you've got a guy who has a 0.93 ERA after 29 innings....that seems pretty darn-tootin' good to me.

On MLB's stats list there are 20 pitchers with a lower ERA. However, considering that 20 includes Scott Mathieson, Perez, and Wilson Valdez, you can see the kind of one-inning luck-fests that populate much of the top-20.

Maybe you're right... like I said, I'm not a stats guy. But on raw ERA mixed with innings pitched, Bastardo has really outstanding numbers.

TheTheory: The difference between a .93 era and a 1.93 era for a 1 inning reliever is about 1 earned run every 3-4 weeks. Bastardo is averaging 2 1/3 innings a week. I consider that to be pretty similar in the grand scheme of things. Again, I'm not denigrating Bastardo. I'm glad he's on the team. The point being, Bastardo could put up these numbers for 10 years and still not be as valuable as Johan Santana was. I think every GM, if given a choice between Santana in his prime and Mo Rivera in his prime would take Johan Santana.

NEPP: Saw you posted Schwimer splits earlier. Is that a career thing or just a 2011 thing?

And also, ERA splits? Thats just runs occuring during a PA vs a certain handed batter? I dont agree with that at all.

Wow, I see Schweitzer is at it again.

For some reason he just can't distinguish between the development of outfielders and relief pitchers, and lumps them all together.

I was always told that what a prospect does during his development in the minor leagues matters as well. That is, the reason someone like Dom Brown gets an extended chance at the MLB level is because he performed really well in the minors.

OTOH, relief pitchers have MiL track records, and I imagine what they've done in the minors is also taken into consideration, unnless you choose to ignore it.

JBird: I think you're selling Bastardo way short there.

i'll have to dig up the quote, but I don't think Stark was really comparing Bastardo to Santana, but more of his size, pitching speed, mystery to whether he was a starter or reliever(in minors). Of course, people took it too far.

Brown seems legit to me. Walking a good bit, not striking out a ton, hitting for power. He has some issues, but for 23 in the majors, I think he at least is going to be a starter in the MLB..elite will come if he works out those issues(handling inside pitches)

JBird: haha thats a beerleaguer classic right there.

You argue with a troll when you are obviously right and try to use examples to slam the door, but you end up making a statement with some arguable points. Now you'll spend your next few posts defending that while the troll goes on spewing the same nonsense.

Felske's piece venting at those who really think Hamels should have stayed in yesterday's game (linked above) says it all.

The concern is going forward.

From MLB.com:

"...'It's not a slam dunk that he will [start],' general manager Ruben Amaro said.

According to Amaro, Hamels boarded the team bus to the airport to travel to Toronto with a few stitches in his right hand and wearing a soft splint."

Didn't Madson's injury start as a contusion also? Heal, Cole, heal!

The Theory - someone pointed out the other day that Bastardo has a 99.1% strand rate. obviously, that won't continue, so take his
ERA with a grain of salt. that said, he's pitched extremely well and is a very nice bullpen piece.

Will - how are you not a ML GM yet? such brilliance...

I would rather have Hamels miss his next 2 starts, skip the ASG, and get 100% healthy. Phils have mismanaged a couple of injuries already this season. No reason not to exert a bit of caution here.

Upside is it saves a little wear/tear on his arm too. Still on pace to pitch ~230 even with his abbreviated start yesterday which would be a career high.

Big ditto on that one, MG.

Bed's Beard: I know what Stark's point was. I'm talking about Will's point (and Clout's, since he's been beating that strawman for a year now). Oddly, Will S. and Clout seem to have opposite takes on Beerleaguer orthodoxy. Will S. says we all mocked the Bastardo:Santana comparison and Clout says we all bought into it. weird.

I agree with MG. These starters have logged a lot of miles because they all pitch as if they're in Game 7 of the WS - which is great in the short-term.

While I'm not entirely in the pitch-count camp, I am wary of Halladay and the rest of these guys hitting their annual "dead-arm" period in September and October. Like swimmers and other explosive athletes, I wonder if they should be managed to taper down their work through August, and then ramp it up again at the beginning of September.

JBird--There is obviously a difference between a starter's numbers and reliever's numbers. But in the part I quoted you said 2 dozen BULLPEN guys with better numbers and 2 dozen with the same kind of numbers.

For a reliever, Bastardo's 29 innings is a pretty good sample for mid-way through the season. By comparison, Madson has 32 innings at this point.

I'm not calling him the best reliever in the MLB--but in 2011 his basic stats make your assertion that there are about 48 relievers who are as good as or better than Bastardo kind of---well, let's just say 48 is a lot of people in the reliever niche of baseball.

madson's injury is on his throwing hand and hamels is on his non throwing hand......

The thrust of jBird's post was obviously that a great pitcher is WAY mor valuable than a great reliever.

Woudl anyone argue such a thing?

Also, Will S using Bastardo as an example to make the point that Brown is getting too much slack is laughable. First of all, to claim Brown "flopped" last year when more than half of his, what, 68 ABs, came as a pinch hitter, is ridiculous. Secondly, Bastardo was up two years ago as a starter, and he stunk, to the tune of a 66 ERA+. Last year, as a reliever, he was mediocre, to the tune of a 96 ERA+.

This year, he's put it together.

It's almost as if you have to stick with great minor league talents and give them time to develop in the majors as they learn and adjust to the much better league.

What a novel concept, huh Will?

TheTheory: and I responded that era isn't exactly a wonderful way to grade relievers because the difference between a .93 era and a 2.0 era over 29 innings is about 3 runs. Which means that Reliever X gave up an additional run every 4 or 5 weeks. If in those 29 innings a reliever had struckout more batters and walked fewer, I'd say they are performing better despite an era twice as high. 48 is a lot of people but it works out to about 1.5 guys per team. The Braves have 3 guys as good or better in Kimbal, Venters, and O'Flaherty. If Madson is healthy, don't you want him closing instead of Bastardo? I do. There's 4 guys on 2 teams right there. Bastardo is a good reliever. I'm not disputing that. But over small sample sizes like 29 innings there can be a wide difference in results despite similar skill levels.

SSS, but Brown has a higher SLG% than Ibanez and Francisco, and his wOBA is higher than Ibanez and even with Francisco. his OPS is also higher than both.

Brown belongs on the roster as much if not more than those 2, for sure. beat it, Will.

TheTheory: Heath Bell and Mike Adams are as good or better (Luke Gregorson was in the past but he's had some injuries) Eduardo Sanchez and Fernando Salas are as well. 8 guys on 4 teams. Bastardo is great and very valuable. But relievers are more fungible than other positions and often flame out after a run of 3 or 4 years. . . aside from Mo, of course... just look at JC Romero. He went from sucking to untouchable to sucking again all in the space of what 3 years? 4?

The Bastardo-Santana legend went like this: Stark wrote something to the effect that some scouts had seen similarities between Bastardo and Santana. Pretty much every single poster on Beerleaguer laughed at the comparison. However, some posters added, by way of caveat, that Bastardo did look like he had a bright future -- a prognosis with which clout, and his irrefutable scouting sources, disagreed. From there, clout took off & ran with it, creating the legend that Beerleaguer had collectively annointed Bastardo as the next Johan Santana.

It's all kind of amusing, but when it gets translated into historical fact, the record does need to be corrected.

Good point about the Phils starters pitching like its Game 7 of WS. The Phils dont score a bunch of runs an just about every outing they are holding a 1 or 2 run lead or a tie/trailing. It be good for every once in a while if our offense jumps on top of a team early one an give our starters more breathing room. I think this is the one of the reasons Cole has been so good. Last year an this year the Phils probably scored 2 or less runs for him.

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EST. 2005

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