Madson's recent outings gave clues to hand injury

Ryan Madson's usual dominance has slowly faded since taking a line drive off his hand against the Rangers May 20, concludes one Beerleaguer reader, along with a consensus of Phillies' writers.

Before the May 20: 18 G, 18 IP, 2-0, 0.50 ERA, 1.00 WHIP, 8-for-8 SV, 11.5 K/9, 2.0 BB/9, 5.8 K/BB, .175 BAA, 15 percent swing and miss rate, 10 percent LD rate, 1.67 GB/FB ratio.

After May 20: 13 G, 13 IP, 1-1, 4.15 ERA, 1.46 WHIP, 7-for-8 SV, 7.6 K/9, 2.8 BB/9, 2.7 K/BB, .300 BAA, 10 percent swing and miss rate, 23 percent LD rate, 0.82 GB/FB ratio.

Lost grip on change-up? "I wondered why two weeks ago against the Cubs on a Sunday when I saw Madson that he had no feel at all for his change-up and was almost all four-seam fastballs except a cutter he threw to Geovanny Soto. Literally threw one change-up that outing in 17 pitches. It was rather odd. Know I think I know why. His hand his hurting and is having a hard time finding his grip on his change-up. It would explain why he has had the notable drop in ground balls the last month or so." - MG

Comments

[Scotch Man]

Those Heath Bell rumors definitely sound good all of a sudden.

[EastFallowfield]

Phils aren't the only team that don't broadcast injuries.

The Reds stayed away from a couple pitchers when they were at CBP, even though one game went 19 innings. The Cubs did the same in a series with a long game, and the Marlins seemed to do so in their 4 game series.

[Mike G]

Why does everybody think the Phils should tell the media about every injury. When you inform the media, the other team gets information. Why give them any more information than they need.

[Tim]

This macho "I'm going to pitch while I'm hurt so no one says stuff to me" thing needs to stop especially when we're talking backs and hands you kinnnddddd of need those....

[Bonehead]

I wonder about you sometimes, Cholly. You may fold under questioning.

[Andy]

Forget the RH bat. Get Bell.

[Andy]

Good thing Chooch had that canal or something taken care of yesterday.

I think Chollie puts that "dumb hick" act thing on somethings just a little bit too thick.

[Meyer]

Charlie's code breaking transcriptionist tells me that Madson is healed and will pitch tonight.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Manuel's barely intelligible. Everytime I listen to him, I want to grab a beer because it might be awhile before I piece together what he's saying.

Speaking of whihc, anyone catch the funny Riggleman story about 'solving hte world's problems?' Love that euphemism and cel phone cameras.

[Old Phan]

"Does any team provide more injury misinformation that the Phils?"

Probably all of them.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Only prediction I got right for last night is that there would be plenty of innings for the bullpen. Never would have tought double shut-out for 53 outs, even with Oakland in the game.

Near as I can tell, Phils are at the top of most team pitching stats that matter. Offense leads teh league in one statistic: HBP.

[Iceman]

What's one good reason the Phils should be open about their injury problems? Because they owe it to us as fans?

Being open about injuries is just assisting the other team in knowing what to prepare for when they're facing you. It's why you see NHL players diagnosed with "upper-body injuries" all the time. Every team does this. The only reason people want them to be more open about it is because they feel entitled as fans, despite the fact that doing so would hurt the team.

[PhillyJoe]

If you had told me before the season that Worley Herndon Perez and Stutes would have combined for a 2 hit shutout to push the phils to 19 games over 500 in June I wouldn't have believed you.

Rube deserves a round of applause for maintaining organizational depth despite several years of big trades. Also it looks like demoting Herndon really straightened him out which also reflects well on Rube even though the demotion itself was a no brainer at the time.

[MG]

Iceman - Agreed. There is no reason why the Phils have to publicly disclose an injury like Madson's. Serves no purpose really.

Now there roster management and how they handle related injuries . . . that has been less than ideal at times this season especially with Blanton/Worley and Vic.

[the_berger]

How does knowing a relief pitcher is injured influence a baseball game plan? Is it simply that you might save a LH or RH bat for a later inning to pinch hit? Does it give hitters a general "feel good" sensation throughout the game knowing, "oh crap, I normally wet my pants heading into the 9th against Madson but now this Herdon cat is in there and he's a rule 5 guy so I'm probably putting that first pitch in the parking lot instead of screwing myself into the batter's box like a cartoon"?

Seems extremely minor to me. Injury mystery in football makes sense b/c you gameplan away or around certain players but baseball? Seems like a non-issue to me.

[Iceman]

MG- yeah, I don't understand what they did with Blanton. I also don't buy Cholly's line that he didn't know Oswalt was not OK to pitch. We all saw him hobbling around out there. They tried to push it and now are paying the price.

the_berger: you didn't present a reason why they should disclose it, which pretty much proves my point. There is no good reason.

[The James]

Calling up Drew Carpenter for 1000 please Alex. No, seriously. The guy is mowing down opponents and as of late he has really been inducing a lot of grounders. Not sure if he has changed his pitch selection this year, but he seems to be inducing more ground outs this year. Possibly Schwimer too, but only if used against righties and easy lefties.

[PhxPhilly]

I doubt players are 100% healthy throughout the season. In fact, any pitcher's arm probably 'hurts' after 2 innings. I remember Hamels being called a wimp (insert whatever word you wish) for his wanting a back specialist.

Managing daily aches and pains is an important requirement for any team, especially with the enormous contracts being guaranteed to players. Value, position, and depth all need to be considered. Utley's injuries need to be managed differently than Schnieder's.

[MG]

the berger - Let's say the Phils release that Madson has a hand injury dating from May 20th. If I am opposing advance scout, I rely this information to one of my number crunchers for the upcoming series. I have them go through the pitch f/x numbers to see if there are any trend and is there anything Madson is struggling with.

Now I would have to go back through the numbers but let's say that Madson is notably using his changeup alot less overall and that hitters are more likely to see a 4-seam fastball or cutter especially in certain counts. You don't want over give too much information to your batting coach/hitters but that kind of nugget (more likely to see a cutter here or a 4-seam fastball) is valuable & useful to a hitter.

[the_berger]

@ Iceman -- I'm not arguing for disclosure, that's why you didn't see any reasoning supporting it. I agree that there is no reason for full disclosure, I'm simply wondering why it would matter either way. I just don't see how the information is at all useful for another team which would make the whole conversation of disclose/keep secret irrelevant.

[Iceman]

the_berger: as MG pointed out, if a pitcher is pitching hurt, it's definitely something the opposing team would want to be aware of. If a pitcher is unavailable, I guess it doesn't really matter, but there are certain match-up scenarios that may arise in which the opposing manager might handle things differently knowing the Phils don't have the best righty out of the pen available to pitch.

[whitey]

"Is it simply that you might save a LH or RH bat for a later inning to pinch hit?"

That sounds like a good reason. What if a batter has a .050 BA career against Madson but usually hits righthanders well? They may burn them in the earlier innings if they think Madson is pitching the ninth. In a 0-0 game, it could be huge.

[the_berger]

@ MG -- ok, I can see how that could be helpful information. Football "requires" the updating of a injury report (cough, betting). Does baseball? If not, I'd never discuss injuries outside of those that land players on the DL.

[rauls grandpa]

I never paid any attention to it before but Fuentes throwing style just looks like an accident waiting to happen.

[bay_area_phan]

Injuries to a pitcher often have little effect on his fastball, but they invariably impact his ability to throw secondary pitches. We saw that with Madson in his recent outings, when he largely abandoned his change-up. If you're an opposing hitter, and you know the pitcher is injured, you're a lot more likely to sit on a fast ball -- and a lot more likely to be right when you do so.

[Scott]

Lost in the perpetual bickering is the completely irrelevant question of "Why do you continue to use a key player when he is injured?" instead of addressing the problem promptly. Or doesn't it matter if a pitcher's hand is numb?

[Mike G]

Scott, don't you mean "completely relevant?" Or were you being sarcastic?

[Raul's grandpa]

Inorder to make himself more believable to the Superfans here, might I suggest Charlie ends all press conferences with "The time is yours" ?

[mvptommyd]

I am not trying to be a jerk here or purposely cause a rise, but do you think they will be counting on Lidge to return and use him as a closer right away before they trade for Bell?

[Scott]

Mike G: It was an attempt at sarcasm. People here would rather challenge one another about the need to "prove" things, such as their points of view, rather than discuss things like why the organization would risk a rising star and hurt their efforts to win.

[Mike G]

Ok Scott, my question to you would be: do you know if the organization knew about it and continued to use him or did they just find out about it?

[Scott]

Mike G: As per Charlie's presser, they've known for at least a week.

[Mike G]

When did Madson pitch last?

[freelance writers]

The sportsmen get a lot of injury during the game and training. They must be careful with their health.