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Thursday, May 19, 2011


props to Valdez - he has stayed back just enough on offspeed pitches as of late to keep hard hit balls fair down the left field line. First time I think I've ever seen him make an adjustment at the plate.

What a great win. Great pitching, great defense, manufactured runs, quick work.

Madson is just plain filthy. Colorado has to be shell-shocked after enduring both Hamels' and Madson's change-ups all night.

At some point, the Phils mainstays have to break out with some hits - Howard and Polanco most particularly. I'm just hoping Martinez isn't hitting 2d again, tonight. They need to put some runs up with some doubles and homers instead of errors, wild pitches and passed balls.

Madson's price is going up by the day...might want to sign him sooner rather than later.

Rube's top priorities this year need to be extending Madson and Hamels.


NEPP: Couldn't agree more. Do you think moving Madson back to the set up role will knock him down a peg in pay scale? Thing is...I don't want Lidge to close when he comes back...

Not to betray my mancrush on Big Truck, but even in my eyes, there is no way he moves back to the 9th. Sorry Jose.

GRAB: I don't know if his price tag goes down no matter what his role is. GMs around the league have to know what this guy is capable of now, and Boras will surely capitalize.

Quincy: Yeah, I know...I am afraid of that. I think Rube gets a deal done regardless. Bastardo will be our new set up guy and Madson will be our closer.

I would rather see the Phils best reliever in a higher leverage spot (8th) in a 1-run game than the 9th but that's just me.

GRAB: Agreed. He'll get it done.

He seems like such a cool guy...too bad his wife isn't as cool

Contreras and Lidge can fight over the 8th if they want when they come back. Madson stays in the 9th, no excuses. Pay the man now!

The Rox are antsy to face KY Joe today after being made foolish by Hamels and Mad Dog. Chacin will shut down the Phils feared lineup while Blanton surrenders 4 runs during 5 sweaty innings.

Oh cool, thanks Ron. Now I don't have to watch.

As a Boras client Madson is not signing until after the season and he's likely going wherever he's paid the most.

Alex: Although I'm hoping otherwise, I happen to agree. My intention is to enjoy watching Madson while he's still here, as I don't expect him back in '12.

Why do people forget that Madson signed a deal just 3 years ago to take away his first free agent years?

I had been sort of down on him-perhaps unfairly-as a result of that fan punching debacle that led to missed games (even while appluding the job he normally did). But perhaps that was a one time glitch, he's maturing, whatever.

He certainly has been more than holding up his end of a slightly shaky ship, and he sounds great when he's interviewed. Good for Ryan, I'm happy for him (and for the team).

Just to clarify, I thought it was a fan (cooling fan, not baseball fan) he punched, but whatever, he punched or kicked something in the clubhouse hard enough to injure himself and that was what I'm thinking about.

Maybe it was John Tudor who punched the fan back in the mid-80's? Getting old!

Medical staff blunder?

Why is Vic having an MRI today 5 days after he injured his hamstring to see the extent of the injury and why did he sac bunt for the pitcher last night?

"I had been sort of down on him-perhaps unfairly-as a result of that fan punching debacle that led to missed games (even while appluding the job he normally did). But perhaps that was a one time glitch, he's maturing, whatever."

Interesting game of 'telephone', but Madson hurt himself by kicking a chair. Which is stupid, but has a whole different connotation than "fan punching".

I am wondering how one would break a toe from punching a fan???

lorecore: Who said anyone forgot? Madson was injured for the last 2 mos. of '07, had a solid '08 & signed a 3 year deal to avoid arbitration on 20 Jan. '09. It's important to note that he would have become a free agent only after the '09 season. I'd say his situation then was considerably less settled than it is now.

kicked a metal chair, Bob, last April

MG: Agreed, weird that his MRI is so much later.

But using your best bunter in that situation was not a mistake.

I am wondering how one would break a toe from punching a fan???

Danys Baez is incompetent enough to manage that.

mri was already scheduled before the game last night. they are making sure it's progressing so he can play in a couple of days. read a paper. sheesh

I'm fairly certain Shane will be going on the DL.

"I am wondering how one would break a toe from punching a fan???

Danys Baez is incompetent enough to manage that."

If only we could be so lucky.

no he won't be going on the dl


Look I like what Mayberry brings to this team off the bench (defense, speed, some pop, ability to do damage vs. LHP) but he isn't an everyday player.

His numbers have already started to decline as he faces more RHP. He has a stat line of .231/.375/.346 vs RHP (26 ABs) and .276/.344/.483 vs. LHP (29 ABs).

The best case-solution is to start using more strict platoons once Brown comes up with a platoon of Brown/Francisco in RF and Ibanez/Mayberry in LF. If one guy gets really hot for a week, then he starts.

Cholly really doesn't like playing platoons. Well he is going to have to this year because the talent he has isn't good enough to start everyday.

Yes I know that Ibanez has better number vs. LHP in the early going but I still think he can be somewhat productive if you only play him vs. RHP & give him a 1-2 days off a week.

Yeah Brown needs to face LHP pitching but deal with that mole hill next year.

"had a solid 2008"

solid? How about breakout, dominating world series stud at 28yr old?

Everyone said a Boras client would never sign a multi-year deal with just 1 year left, but Madson proved us all wrong and took a team friendly deal to buyout his 2010 and 2011 free agent seasons.

Now people are saying the exact same stereotypes about him going into this year. Him leaving to highest bidder is definitely a possibility, but to site the same-old Boras client schtick is basically forgetting what Madson already has done.

Bob: "I had been sort of down on him-perhaps unfairly-as a result of that fan punching debacle that led to missed games (even while appluding the job he normally did). But perhaps that was a one time glitch, he's maturing, whatever."

I really like Madson, so when I read this I frantically googles variations on "Madson fan punch" to find out when this happened because I couldn't recall.

I'm glad he's never punched a person in the stands, that would greatly change my opinion of him.

"Will has stated that Lidge's '08 season was all smoke and mirrors, so he would claim there IS denying how good he was."

Yeah, he had one really great season in his career. Excuse me while I run naked to the Hall of Fame chanting his name.

MG: agreed - but if a platoon really does happen, I'd rather Francisco to LF.

Only reason I see why he plays RF now is because he's getting more of an everyday look there. If he's platooning then thats basically him being demoted(rightfully so) in both the lineup and should be demoted to LF as well since Mayberry is clearly better defensively.

st - On Sunday, they said he would be in the starting lineup on Wed at the latest. Now today they are stating he will be in the lineup on Friday.

They didn't do an MRI originally on Sunday and not really sure why they didn't in the first place to get a better idea of the severity in the first place. Not exactly like they have to worry about the cash to pay for it.

Maybe it's not as bad as we think. Either that or he's out for the year.

"Yeah, he had one really great season in his career"

you're just routinely wrong, aren't you? take a look at Lidge's monster 2004 & 2005 seasons, both of which were arguably better than 2008

solid? How about breakout, dominating world series stud at 28yr old?

Huh? Madson had an ERA of 4.91 in the '08 World Series, & blew a lead in 2 separate games. He was hardly "dominating".

MG: Usually if there is any swelling or something they will avoid doing an MRI right away because you won't see anything on it. My guess is that there initially was swelling with the injury.

Also, it's possible they decided to let it rest for a few days and then MRI it to see if there is any structural damage.

Assume that the medical staff has a better handle on these things than you or I do.

Madson also went around Boras last time and took a team friendly deal because he loves playing in Philly.

He might just want to cash in this time around.

Sorry about the "fan punching" connotation. In no way did I mean to infer he hit a baseball fan. I realized this sounded wrong and tried to correct it a couple of minutes after the original post.

I was ticked off at him at the time for kicking the chair and injuring himself, though.

I think John Tudor from the Cardinals did punch a (cooling) fan ca. 1985 and injure himself. Like I said, when you start to go downhill after the age of 30, it all starts to blend together... ;-)

In Chooch we trust.

R, Will Schweitzer "routinely wrong"?

You don't say so.

G-Town, you're going to use ERA in a short series (4 G, 3.2 IP) to evaluate a pitcher?


Bob: Remember when Kirk Gibson hit a ball off of Jose Canseco's head & between Bill Buckner's legs, eventually allowing the Mariners to win the World Series? I think Mitch Williams got the Blown Save. Good times!

Rizzotti hit 2 HR's last night he clearly knows how to hit. Why can't we promote him to LHV see if he can maintain it there and then trade him for an equivalent Catching prospect?

awh: Please consider the context of the argument. I'm not at all using it to judge Madson now, only up to the point at which he signed the deal which is about to expire.

Bob, don't worry, at some point, at least one certain regular will start an argument with, "unlike those Beerleaguers who think that Madson punched a fan . . . . ."

All Madson has to do is continue this run for the rest of the year including the playoffs and we can say we is as good as Lidge was in '08.

I loved Mad since I wanted him to be a starter back in '06, but let's wait and see if he continues this before giving him the farm. I certainly hope he continues, and expect him to do so, but a third of the season does not an elite closer make.

I thought it was Werth who beat up a fan.

Unlike all those BeerLeaguers who think Madson punched a fan, I'm not sure whether it's true or just the stuff of legend.

You could make a case that it's better to use your lights-out closer in the 8th because, if he shuts down the opposing team, your own team has one more chance to add to its lead, thereby rendering it less necessary to use a shutdown reliever in the 9th.

I honestly don't have strong feelings about whether Madson or Contreras closes. But I don't want Lidge doing it.


Now wait a second. That was old Bill Buckner who hit that ball off Canseco's head that time.

TTI - In the first 24 hrs, yeah it is common they won't give an MRI until the swelling subsides a bit but 5 days later? That's odd.

Luckily, I'm still young, with a mind like a steel trap. I don't remember Buckner, but I definitely remember the ball off Canseco's head was hit by Ben Francisco. I remember because he only has warning track power.

In the last thread, Wes Chamberlain wrote: "In his time with the Phillies, Lidge has been terrible when pitching in non-save situations." My response:

This is Beerleaguer mythology. Last year, his numbers in non-save situations were actually way better than in save situations. In 2008 & 2009, they were slightly worse. But some context is necessary. Many of Lidge's non-save appearances in 2009 occurred during the times that he had been demoted from his closing role for pitching terribly. He didn't pitch badly in those non-save situations because they were non-save situations. He pitched badly because he was just pitching badly at the time.

It will be remembered that, when he was with Houston, the Astros believed exactly the opposite of the Beerleaguer mythology: that Lidge pitched better in NON-save situations. That's why they twice moved him from the closer's role to the setup role.

I honestly don't have strong feelings about whether Madson or Contreras closes. But I don't want Lidge doing it.

Amen. Let Lidge be the new Baez, & work mop-up duty only.

Bob: No, now you're thinking of Bill Mazeroski. It's just not your day ...

BAP is an expert in Beerleaguer Mythology as he has created a bunch of the myths himself. He teaches a class on off-days.

call off the international manhunt, Kyle Kendrick got his ring back.

gtown: Madson(and Lidge)was the talk of baseball during the 2008 playoffs. He was as hot of a commodity then as he is now.

Iceman: Out of idle curiosity, what myths would those be?

Hamels punched a dude in a bar.
Madson kicked a chair.

Both pitched extremely well last night. Is there a connection?

BAP: How about the myth of BLer mythology?

Pitching is dominating the hitting the last two years it is strange.

Fluke? Is it weather related? Did the balls or bats change? Does HGH help the pitchers more than the hitters keeping them healthier?

Just very odd but maybe the drug testing is taking hold but you know there is a good percentage cheating the system.

Iceman - BAP is right about Lidge. He was twice demoted from the closer's role in Houston.

I hate the notion of established roles and the closer. Unfortunately it is dogma and here to stay.

This team is better off with Lidge on it than off it because they don't exactly have a bunch of great bullpen arms running around. Contreras got lite up last night and really wonder how the rest of his rehab is going to go.

lorecore: I suppose we're simply in disagreement, then. I don't think Madson's stock has ever been higher than it is right now, esp. considering Madson would have had to wait through the whole '09 season before attempting to leverage whatever prestige his performance in the '08 Postseason garnered into a big Free Agent payoff.

I think it was Brad Lidge who was pushed out of a moving Jeep by Ryan Madson.

Are the Phils going to launch fireworks at CBP at the next HR the Phils hit?

Last Phils' HR - Been 30 innings since Mayberry hit his HR on Sunday in the 6th vs. Braves.

Last CBP HR - Been 22 innings since Howard his his HR in the 4th on May 7th vs. Braves.

Brett Myers was certainly involved somehow.

MG- I happen to agree with BAP on this particular point. I just find it ironic that he would get on his high horse about 'BL Mythology' based on all the ridiculous things he has said in the past and then later denied.

BAP- I'd go back and make a list of all of them, but unfortunately I'm busy for the next 12 hours.

gtown: since madson has brought his DITHL down, I would agree that its higher now than ever.

But after 2008 it was still very high, high enough to have everyone saying the same things they are now about the Boras-client factor would eliminate the Phils chance to sign any extension into his FA years.

I wish they still had that baseball shaped golf cart to bring in the relievers so someone could push Baez out of it.

Brett Myers? He's the guy who changed that person's tire and took a homeless guy to the movies after he got traded and moved to Texas, right?

BAP: pretty sure you've authored the 'Even when the Phils win, they should have loss' Myth.

Or the popular myth where you proclaim 'Once X did Y, I knew they would lose' - even though you predict the outcome of every circumstance as the reason the Phils lose, even when they end up winning.

I believe the "this feels like a loss" mantra was a bap creation as well.

Considering that it's used quite often on BL, to the point that the person(s) using it is wrong more often than right, we probably can chalk that one up as "The Myth of the Loss".

This feels like a myth.

quincy: I wish I could take credit for creating "The Myth of Beerleaguer Mythology." But I'm pretty sure I got the idea -- if not the precise phrase -- from clout. And, for sure, there is such thing as Beerleaguer Mythology: ideas that have taken shape on Beerleaguer & which continue to pop up as discussion points even though they have no basis in reality:

-Lidge can only pitch well in save situations.
-Hamels is soft.
-Roy Halladay never has bad stretches.
-Madson can't pitch in pressure situations.
-Bruntlett was an indispensable part of the WFC because he scored the winning run.
-Scott Mathieson has closer's stuff if only he were given a chance.

There are many more.

I like that he's rocking the World Series undershirt

****I wish they still had that baseball shaped golf cart to bring in the relievers so someone could push Baez out of it.****

You could push Baez out of a golf cart, and he'd have trouble hitting the ground.

The ground would have no trouble hitting him.

I will happily take credit for "This feels like a loss." But, under my classication system, that's not really Mythology, since the statement contains no assertions of fact. It's more like a recurring Beerleaguer motif of negativity. It would be cool to say that I invented Beerleaguer negativity, but I'm pretty sure it pre-dated me.

I'm not going to myth this banter once the game thread starts.

(That was for you, Old Phan).

BAP: Give yourself some credit. You took BLer negativity to unprecedented levels... to the point where there is now a brigade of solely depressing commenters daily.

Phlipper, well done.

Who takes credit for "Season = Over"?

Maybe the "negativity" is actually pragmatism. We need about another 25 WS Championships in the next 50 years to erase the sting of 10,000 losses.

Thank you, sensei.

"Season = Over" came from "THe Dude." Not "The Dude," but "THe Dude."

Happily, I got over the negativity in 1980. To be negative about the team now is something I find very difficult to understand.

All I want to know is who came up with height of a third baseman myth. Still, IMO, the most ridiculous myth created here on BL.

And Bruntlett WAS an intergral part of the WFC. The man has his glove in the Hall of Fame ffs...and rainouts have never been more fun/scary with his picture.

First time I remember "Seavon = Over" really being used when Utley went down in July '07. I really did think it was pretty apt at the time.

OP, you win the "Comment of the Day Award" at only 11:41 AM

BAP, you have made negativity into an art form, but unlike others, you do it with a dark humor that I appreciate.
Reminds me of watching games with my Grandfather many moons ago. A player on the Phils would come to bat, hit a ground ball foul and he would say, "He got his hit for the day." If they didn't score he would storm out of the room. Good times.

" to the point where there is now a brigade of solely depressing commenters daily."

quincy, the lead four practitioners being the Pissy-Pants Posse (formerly the Pissy-Pants Quartet). [I took OP's advice and changed it to "Posse" because it allows for easy inclusing of new members.]

errr, " 'inclusion' of new members"

Has anyone mentioned that Kendrick's ring was apparently found "at the bottom of a swamp, inside a Mentos container"? Talk about a mythology: What they don't tell you is that it was discovered by a Shire halfling, whose brother subsequently murdered him and took possession of the Ring.

The negativity can be crushing at times but BAP and Gtown are so distured (in a good way)that I find them extremely ammusing. Others not so much. The hilarity that passes for the game chat I can completely forgive because fans usually aren't rational during a game anyway. I stopped posting during games because Im just way too emotional. And I rarely even follow along on game chats because I actually like to watch the games and I find them a distraction. The day after though, the negativity gets a little bit tiresome. After a particularly bad loss I often won't even log on. But honestly, it's the day long arguments and insult hurling that really get tedious. Some people on here have an absolutely devastating need to win arguments. It is truly disturbing (NOT in a good way). A few years ago there was talk of having a BLer meet and greet at McFaddens. That would be fascinating. I'm dying to know what kind of weirdos some of us are. Oops gotta go. Mom says my PB&J is ready. Hope she cut off the crust.

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