Game chat: It's a beautiful day. Let's play 20

With a win today, the Phillies can finish 10-10 over their stretch of 20 games against teams with winning records. Their series with the Reds concludes starting at 1:05.

Cliff Lee takes the mound for the Phillies, probably since Wilson Valdez wasn't available. Speaking of Valdez, he's the third baseman today. A quick look at some of the Phillies' position rotations over the last three innings (including the soon-to-come first inning today): Pitcher: Danys Baez, Wilson Valdez, Cliff Lee. Second base: Wilson Valdez, Placido Polanco, Chase Utley. Third base: Placido Polanco, Carlos Ruiz, Wilson Valdez.

Lineups: Martinez 6, Brown 9, Utley 4, Howard 3, Ibanez 7, Mayberry 8, Valdez 5, Sardinha 2, Lee 1. If you think that's bad, guess who's batting cleanup for the Reds? Yep, that would be noted masher Miguel Cairo. Worst cleanup hitter ever?

Contreras returns: Jose Contreras is back in the fold, and David Herndon is back in the minors. J.C. Romero is lucky to still have a job. And Baez might have saved his career last night. Oh, and Wilson Valdez is tied for the best ERA in MLB history.

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Comments

[Jbird]

repost:

Phillyinnyc: I for one have never heard anyone complain about management or ownership on beerleaguer.

re: Posey - Carlos Santana came back from a horrific collision last year and despite a low BA is putting up very good numbers behind the plate.

[Jbird]

I don't get Cairo in the 4 hole. Just move Bruce up, seems pretty simple to me.

[Scratch]

Valdez should be available to pitch, he only threw 10 last night.

Has Charlie Manuel ordered Martinez to crouch down at the plate, shoulders to knees, and squeeze down his strike zone or something?

[Hugh Mulcahy]

I would expect, if Lee gets knocked out early, that Kyle Kendrick will get a lot of rope.

[Heather]

Well, the Reds have the worst cleanup hitter ever, and the Phillies have the worst leadoff hitter ever. Seems even to me.

[Jbird]

It's a good thing Utley didn't start yesterday because this team would have found itself short of utility infielders for the 1st time after carrying 15 of them to start the season. Little surprised Ibanez is starting instead of Benny Franc.

[Spitz]

JBird - Dusty doesn't want to have his left handed power hitters back to back. I mean, they may have to contend with JC Romero late in the game!

[CJ]

Valdez is also tied for the lowest WHIP in history. His only base-runner allowed was HBP.

[clout]

Does anyone know what Chooch's UZR is at 3B?

[AL]

Drew,

Just wanted to say your writing style has come a long way since you started posting. Really like the angles you have taken and how you write.

Don't mean to say it was bad at first, but it really fits into the BL motif now.

[Colin_K]

Scratch, so what you are saying is that Mini-Mart should be/is employing the Eddie Gaedel (of Bill Veeck fame) strike zone?

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2008/03/14/alg_gaedel.jpg

[Dan in Philly]

It's good to have 4 aces in the deck. While Lee has his blowups, we can reasonably expect him to go 7 or 8 today, saving a ravaged pen. Here's where our competitive advantage starts to show. Week in, week out, game in, game out, the pitching staff is just relentless.

[NEPP]

***Does anyone know what Chooch's UZR is at 3B?***

Not as good as it could have been had he actually made the catch on that foulball on the tarp.

Had he made that he'd probably be leading the Majors in UZR for 3B.

[awh]

Dan, I hope you're right about Lee's start today. The bullpen could surely use a break.

[CJ]

clout: It's pretty unreliable. He's only played third base in two different seasons. UZR should really only be used over a 3-year sample.

[NEPP]

Had poor Bill Veech had his way, the Orioles would still be in St. Louis as the Browns and the Cardinals would have moved away. He tried awfully hard to make that happen when he owned the Browns.

[Colin_K]

CJ, plus isn't taking UZR on a yearly basis an unreliable source for determining ones defensive worth?

[NEPP]

In all seriousness, I'm willing to bet that Chooch would be a pretty solid defensive 3B if he played there full time.

[CJ]

I heard last night that Chooch takes infield practice on a pretty regular basis. Had no idea. I think that's awesome.

[Old Phan]

NEPP, Chooch doesn't possess that all important qualification for manning the hot corner, if you know what I mean.

[Edmundo]

NEPP, huh? The Browns became the Orioles upon their move to Baltimore.

[The Truth Injection]

The Posey thing was just a freak thing. It's a clean play by the runner. Is he just supposed to give himself up coming into the plate? Provided Posey catches the ball- if Cousins slides he is out.

It's a shame that it happened and the Giants are going to miss Posey if he's out for an extended period of time but the uproar over it is really kind of silly.

[Spitz]

How come Wilson Valdez didn't have to get loose in the pen last night? I have a theory that relief pitchers put too many unnecessary pitches on their arm throwing warm-ups. Thoughts?

[CJ]

Spitz: Well, he threw to first a lot last night, including infield between innings. I suppose his arm was already warm.

[Baron von Hayes]

TTI, so is there a situation when it's not okay to bowl over the catcher? Again, I'm not convinced either way, but it seemed to me like Cousins fairly purposefully veered to his left to initiate the contact.

It's a really tough one...I'm no Giants fan, but I hate that Posey is hurt so seriously.

[Ray Fosse]

Posey is a wuss. That was no kind of collision.

[Old Phan]

Call Pete Rose., I'm sure he has an opinion on running into catchers.
The only times it isn't OK to run into a catcher is the way Juan Marichal did it, or after the game is over. Otherwise, you have to try to score.

[EastFallowfield]

At some point, the Phils or Ibanez average with RISP will come up, without noting that the Reds centerfielder ran down last night's game winner for no real reason, most guys just turn and let it drop and Ibanez gets a hit.

[philwynk]

Cliff Lee, 1st inning, 8 strikes, 1 ball. God, I love this team...

[SLO Phan]

Why couldn't Mini-Mart do that yesterday in the 18th?!?

[Baron von Hayes]

EFF, I actually thought that was the perfect ending. Both teams refused to give an inch all night.

They both also somehow very hard to lose it as well.

[MG]

TTI - Exactly. Here is one of Cousins' comments that is dead on about the Posey play:

“I felt like he was blocking the dish. It’s the go-ahead run in the game. I’ve got to do whatever I can do to score. I know Schierholtz has an absolute cannon in the outfield. We made up our minds that we were gonna go when the ball was in the air and force the issue and make them make a perfect play.

“I couldn’t tell if Posey dropped the ball or not. All’s I saw was he looked like he secured it and turned towards me, I decided to try and knock the ball loose. … There was no lane to slide in. From the split-second I had ot make up my mind 10 feet away there was no lane. I went in the only way I thought was the right way to go in.

“I touched home. I knelt over him and was trying to see if he was all right because he’s a great guy and he’s a great player. I’m not trying to end anybody’s season or anything like that. I was just trying to play hard and score the go-ahead run. He didn’t say much. You could tell he was in pain. When the manager came out, he was pretty frustrated, I didn’t want to stick around and make things any tenser so I decide dot get out of there.

“It’s a baseball play. It’s part of the risk of being a catcher. We’re trying to win games also. I’m not going to concede the out by any means, not in that situation, not ever. I’m on this team to help do the little things to help this team win a game and if that means going hard and forcing the issue on the bases because I have speed, then that’s what I’m going to do.

“It was a great feeling to help this team win. I don’t care where we’re at. I don’t know if I’m going to be welcome home as much any more but it’s a baseball play. I feel bad for Buster Posey. I hope he’s OK. I’m going to send a message over there to him.”

[clout]

Valdez's appearance last night points up the flaws in Pitch fx. It said he threw mostly changeups, not realizing that it was his 86 mph fastball.

He did throw a couple 4-seamers and a curve, though. He's obviously a pitch-to-contact guy. His release point was sloppy, but with some work, that can be corrected.

[MG]

There is a clear double-standard too with the ridiculous cry to now 'ban all contact' at home plate.

If this happened to somebody like Sardinha, do you think there would be a cry to suddenly ban contact in MLB? Absolutely not. You won't ever hear that much about it outside of Philly.

[NEPP]

***Valdez's appearance last night points up the flaws in Pitch fx. It said he threw mostly changeups, not realizing that it was his 86 mph fastball.***

Pitchfx is always a bit iffy with very small sample sizes. Typically, they go back in and manually correct mistakes like that once a guy gets enough data in the system for the algorithym to process. It saw the greater movement/dropoff downward along with the velocity dip and miscategorized them obviously.

[NEPP]

****NEPP, huh? The Browns became the Orioles upon their move to Baltimore.

Posted by: Edmundo | Thursday, May 26, 2011 at 12:54 PM ***

Sorry, I should have gone into more detail. Yes, that is completely correct. However, once upon a time Bill Veeck was their owner when they were the STL Browns. At that time, he was trying to drive the Cardinals out of town by signing their big name players and doing all sorts of attendance grabbing gimmicks. These ended up failing because the big name guys were mostly over the hill and the Cardinals were soon bought by an investment group that was determined to keep them in Stl and one that had the money to compete. Veeck ended up selling the Browns who were then eventually bought by a group from Baltimore and the rest is history. Veeck owned the Indians after that IIRC.

Been a while since I read up on it though so I could be messing up the timelines on him owning the Indians after that. I think he owned the White Sox at some point too.

[Baron von Hayes]

MG, did you watch it? After I watched it a few times, I really don't feel like these are true:

- "I felt like he was blocking the dish."
- "There was no lane to slide in."
- "From the split-second I had ot make up my mind 10 feet away there was no lane."

10 feet away, but a split second?

And to be clear, the cry to ban all contact at home plate is beyond ridiculous. I guess I'm not just willing to take Cousins' word for it. After watching on the video, I'm on the fence here. Not the most egregious play, and Buster's leg was just caught awkwardly. But part of the reason that happened is because Buster was turning to his left very fast b/c he knew he wasn't blocking the plate.

[NEPP]

9 times out of 10...hell maybe even 99 out of 100 times, Posey doesnt get his leg caught and he's merely dazed on a hard play at the plate.

I dont think Cousins was deliberately trying to injure him or play dirty at all. He was defintely aiming for him as he thought he had to knock the ball loose.

[lorecore]

Am I sensing a upcoming hot streak from Ryno?

If so, hellllf'nyea.

[Lake Fred]

Cliff Lee has a one run lead. I hope he appreciates it and pitches well.

[Baron von Hayes]

NEPP, I don't think he was trying to injure him either, and I wouldn't necessarily call it dirty. But I just always thought that if the catcher is blocking the lane, he's fair game. If not, be very careful about how you initiate the contact. I've watched the video a few times, and I can't reconcile the fact that if Buster was blocking the lane why did he move so quick to the left (which is what caused his ankle / leg to get caught awkwardly, as opposed to being in a stance where you are prepared to take the impact.)

[The Truth Injection]

Baron: Well the first comment there is Cousins opinion of the play. Not sure how you can declare that untrue.

There really wasn't a good lane to slide in. Posey had his leg out blocking the path to the plate meaning Cousins would've needed to slide off the back end of the plate and then touch it with his hand. Not an easy play by any means. And again- if he slides and posey has caught the ball he's easily out.

10 feet means you basically have a step until you need to slide or not.

As for the other thing you said- yes there are clearly times to avoid contact. If the throw beats you to the plate by a few steps then you give yourself up. If the catcher is clearly on the backside of the plate or clearly in front of it then you give yourself up. On this particular play- it was going to be close. Posey was in front of the plate barely to catch the ball but he had swung back in front by the time the throw got there. The worst part really occurred because Posey missed the ball and then sort of tried to deke Cousins and only braced himself at the last possible minute. Plus as a catcher you're taught to position yourself with your body towards the third base line in case of a collision. Posey was turned towards the pitcher's mound leaving his body exposed. It may sound silly but there is a big difference taking a collision head on versus from the side like that.

[CJ]

Clean play. No doubt about it. Maybe he could have tried to slide to the right, but that wouldn't have given his team the best chance to win.

So I'd love to hear someone suggest a rule change to address contact at the plate.

[Mick O]

Why don't 2B and SS crouch and block the entire base om a steal attempt while awaiting a throw from the C?

[NEPP]

Has Posey made any public comments on the issue? I'd love to hear what he has to say as I doubt he's going to come out whining about it. Probably much ado about nothing.

[CJ]

Great ovation from the crowd for Valdez's first at bat.

Part of me wishes Baez could get something like that, but I don't want to see the situation that brings him to the plate today!

[f4f]

how many posters have individually mentioned the "if it had been sardinha no one would be complaining" angle of the posey injury?

we get it, double standard, no one cares about dane, move on.

[Brian]

Nice pop for Valdez there...

[NEPP]

Another freaking groundout???

Damnit Wilson!

[NEPP]

Hell, some fans would probably welcome the chance to see Eric Kratz on the 25 man...

[CJ]

Mick O: Sometimes they do. Utley is notorious for putting his knee down to block the base with his lower leg. But when you do that, you open yourself up to getting spiked. Catchers wear protection. Middle infielders do not.

[Baron von Hayes]

TTI, yeah the first statement isn't false. I just meant that I didn't see it that way.

The rest of the points, fair enough. I think it's not so clear cut, and Posey was a bit too far away for me to be that comfortable with the collision. Your point about how he positioned himself is probably crucial - Posey bears responsibility for that too.

What we can surely all agree on is the point that's been made where if this is Sardinha, no one is calling for a ban on collisions at the plate. Does Sardinha even have an agent?

[joe l]

"Valdez's appearance last night points up the flaws in Pitch fx. It said he threw mostly changeups, not realizing that it was his 86 mph fastball." -- clout

Is this why the Phillies have that guy behind the plate with the radar gun and walkie-talkie, to relay the pitch type to the scoreboard guys? Otherwise, why wouldn't someone use the more accurate Pitch fx for speed/movement data?

[NEPP]

***Why don't 2B and SS crouch and block the entire base om a steal attempt while awaiting a throw from the C? ***

Baseball cleats really hurt.

[The Truth Injection]

For all the faults of Philadelphia fans (some absolutely warranted) they really are great fans in general. They just gave a reserve utility guy as big a round of applause as a guy like Jim Thome got coming back to Philly. I feel safe saying that is the biggest round of applause Valdez will ever get in his life.

[CJ]

More surprising?

Kendrick strikes out only 2 batters he faces.
Baez goes 5 clean innings in relief.
Valdez gets the win on the mound.

Or...

Dane Sardinha gets an infield single.

[lorecore]

For anynoe watching - how does Bailey look today? He has been very effective since his call up and is still lauded for having a pretty high ceiling.

[The Truth Injection]

As someone who once had to get 4 stitches in his calf to close up a gash from metal spikes I can concur with NEPP.

Metal baseball cleats freaking hurt a lot.

[Baron von Hayes]

TTI, they were awesome last night. Like after Brown flew out in the 15th inning or something, they were standing behind the dugout cheering very loudly and encouragingly. I wish I would have been there, and also 10 years younger.

[CJ]

lorecore: He's pitching okay. He's given up a couple of hits when he missed location (a ball up to Mini Mart and a pitch exactly where he was trying to avoid vs. Howard).

[clout]

NEPP: Veeck owned the Indians before the Browns and the White Sox afterward. Your recall of what he tried to do in St. Louis is correct. The Cards owner was near-broke and Veeck wanted to steal the spotlight and their fans. But in 1953, the Cards were purchased by Gussie Busch, Budweiser heir, and got an infusion of cash.

Veeck saw the writing on the wall and sold the Browns to the family that owned the National Bohemian brewery in Baltimore.

Back in the day, there was nothing better than a National Bo and a crabcake at Memorial Stadium, watching Mike Cuellar or Jim Palmer on the mound.

[Old Phan]

Valdez getting a standing O. Love it!

[NEPP]

thanks clout...couldn't recall the order of his team ownership.

[Shawn]

@CJ:

I don't know about baseball anymore. I'm completely lost.

[Colin_K]

Clout, somehow today I bet you could find another refreshment partner for said crab cake...Natty Bo on tap perhaps?

[EastFallowfield]

Where's Will S. to tell us how much Brown sucks today?

[Shawn]

Small sample size EFF. Don't read anything into that double.

[Baron von Hayes]

EFF, not his mom has woken him up yet.

[Jbird]

nothing better than crabs and Natty Boh

[fumphis]

Wheels continuing to display his sweat obsession.

[conshy matt]

nice stroke for DOM Needs More Seasoning in the Minors BROWN. if i knew how to do the trademark thingy i would.

[clout]

Dom did exactly what he should do with a splitter hanging up in the zone: He hit right on the screws.

[Matt]

Raul!

[conshy matt]

raul

[Brian]

RAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jbird]

Rauuuuul

[Colin_K]

RRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUULLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[EastFallowfield]

RaOLD!

[CJ]

Rauuuuul.

Like I said earlier, glad they didn't pick him to rest today.

Wait... did I say that?

[Old Phan]

Washed up!

[Shawn]

My goodness RAUL is hot.

Yo Conshy, Can I call you Conshy "pimp juice" Matt?

[Get Rube A Beer]

Ibanez on a tear!!!

[clout]

Washed UP!

[Jbird]

Lock him up now!

[curt]

Wow - blew right through the 3 run barrier there.

[Mick O]

I was so wrong about what Raul had left... and more than happy to be so.

[philwynk]

Conshy, it's an ampersand (shift-7), followed by the word "trade", followed by a semicolon. And if that's correct, you'll see a tradmark symbol here: ™

[Jbird]

Worst Cleanup hitter in baseball my. . .

[conshy matt]

shawn, whatever works for you.

[Matt]

Strike out Votto, give up a double to Cairo.

Okay.

[conshy matt]

philwynk - i doubt i'll ever remember that, but thanks.

big question - should i pick up raul for my FBB team?

[Shawn]

Miguel Cairo shakes with anticipation.

[Charlie Hayes]

Reds are leading the world in bleeders and bloops this series.

[philwynk]

Conshy, ® I think ampersand, followed by "reg" (short for "registered"), followed by a semilcolon. I don't know what's causing the extra stray character here.

[Shawn]

Babip.

[phils and nova]

i love it when espn gamecast has balls 1&3&4 right down the middle

[conshy matt]

philwynk - that's funny. is there an instruction booklet that came with my laptop that i'm missing? how do people know these things?

[Charlie Hayes]

Lee needs to fix his tilt.

[Matt]

®

ampersand, pound sign, 174, semicolon

©

ampersand, pound sign, 169, semicolon

[conshy matt]

still no TM though.