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Wednesday, March 09, 2011

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this thing that young was in philly today was completely bogus. guy was in texas's lineup today

"Thus, all this speculation, while fun, is abjectly ignorant.

Posted by: clout"


Bravo! How true.

I think I also saw a Phillies beat writer debunk the rumor that Kerfeld was scouting Texas. I'll try to find it.

It seems like Utley may never again be the same elite player he once was with this injury.


The Detroit Tigers third baseman played the entire 2009 season with patellar tendinitis in his left knee. Utley, the Phillies All-Star second baseman, is currently sidelined by the same injury in his right knee and the team revealed Wednesday that it has not improved with a cortisone injection.

Though no two cases are exactly the same, Inge's injury sounded familiar enough to Phillies manager Charlie Manuel that he asked the Tigers third baseman to call Utley.

Inge said Utley has two options: season-ending surgery or playing through intense pain.

That explains why Utley and the Phillies are exhausting all non-operative options. Inge's description of the surgery was also grim.

He faced the same decision in 2009 when he was diagnosed with patellar tendinitis in spring training and he decided to play through the pain.

"The pain that is associated with it is not fun," Inge said. "It’s a tough thing to play through."

After hitting .230 with 27 home runs and 84 RBIs in 2009, Inge opted for surgery in November and was ready to play opening day last season. But he said he did not feel significantly better until spring training this year.

"I played an entire year with it, then had the surgery and then an entire year last year recovering from it and it’s not fun," he said. "This is the first time I’ve felt comfortable. There is not much you can do about it."

"They don't just do arthroscopic surgery -- they open you up," Inge said, lifting his uniform to reveal a five-inch scar on his left knee. Surgery was frustrating ... because the recovery is slow. In the beginning part, it’s painful."

Inge said the procedure included the drilling of three holes in his kneecap.

It was obvious that Inge's pain was caused by something similar to what Utley is going through. When the Tigers third baseman was shown the new word -- chrondromalacia -- the Phillies are using to describe Utley's injury he immediately knew how to pronounce it.

"It's patellar tendinitis," he said. "Even if he does have the surgery, it's never going to be the same. I wish I had better news and I hope the best for him."

Breakeven: Brandon Inge made 1 all star appearence in his career. Guess what year? 2009 tendonitis year. He also lead the league in Games Played(161) that year.

Brandon Inge Career: 85 OPS+
Brandon Inge w/ tendonitis(09-10): 91 OPS+

"It seems like Utley may never again be the same elite player he once was with this injury."

Yep... time to make these kinds of declarations. Might as well cut Utley now since it's already a sunk cost. After all... Brandon Inge was hurt once, too!

But, in the spirit of the new, optimistic Beerleaguer, we can look forward to Utley contributing at usual levels (adjusted for age) in 2013! Thanks Breakeven!

"It seems like Utley may never again be the same elite player he once was with this injury."

I'd say we're getting a little carried away. Assuming it's really patellar tendinitis, I think it's fair to say that there can be considerable variation in both its severity & how long it lasts.

inge's numbers were pretty standard across the board, tendonitis or not. he pretty much is average

Yeah, it sounds like involving Inge, in any way, shape, or form in all of this talk is a bit misguided. Injuries are not a apples-to-apples discussion.

It's one thing to set a time table for post-surgical recovery time based on other similar surgeries, but no two injuries are truly identical (neither is the healing time of the injured party).

Why did Cholly ask Inge to call Utley again???

How does Inge rate on the Scrappy Scale? Nowhere near Utley, I bet.

Considering that he plays 3rd base, while standing only 5'11," it's no wonder that Brandon Inge's patellar tendinitis took so long to get better.

Congrats to Charles Fuqua Manuel. Hopefully he finishes out this extension on a positive note and then calls it a career.

One thing is absolutely certain - GM-Carson is NOT Heather.

Getting a 2-yr extension at $3.5-$4M sounds about right for both sides & removes it as an issue this season. Congrats to Cholly who is a guy I never figured would make it this far and wanted fired after the disastrous starter in '07 & two frustrating season in '05-'06.

Cholly earned it.

You are right Willard. I have seen photos of Carson on his blog. He definitely is not a "Heather."

MG: There are plenty on here that would tell you Charlie didn't earn it.

He was the right guy for this mix of players.

Good for UC...completely deserved.

Of course he earned it. Good for him.

Umm... the thing is that tendonitis and runner's knee covers a wide range of severity. So what Inge says isn't really all that useful, other than to show a near-worst-case scenario. Although to be honest, it is starting to look like Utley might be near that near-worst-case scenario.

TTI - Largely agreed.

Let me get this straight...

Brandon Inge played 2009 with the injury Utley supposedly has and posted numbers better than his previous two seasons... and then had an even better season in 2010...

And the conclusion we're to draw is that this is a disaster for Utley?

Color me confused.

Utley will clearly hit 45 HRs and bat .345 this year as a result of this injury.

"awh: As the creator of the Sir Alden Trio..."

Why does that not surprise me.

Ever think of chatting about baseball for a while instead of your boring and seemingly endless personal comments about other posters?

NEPP: "Utley will clearly hit 45 HRs and bat .345 this year as a result of this injury."

Well, that's one sarcastic conclusion to draw. Or you could draw conclusions like:

"It seems like Utley may never again be the same elite player he once was with this injury." -Breakeven

Or maybe the Inge "insight" would make you want to "throw up."

I'm just saying that even if you believe Inge and Utley have the exact same problem, the numbers hardly suggest a dire outcome is imminent. But sarcastic overstatements are welcome as well.

there's an article on espn.com by injury expert stephania bell and it does not paint a pretty picture. the key point to the article is now he has bone inflammation which basically means his cartilage is wearing away or part of it is gone and some part of his knee is bone on bone

Or jokes even, CJ.


It really sounds like Utley COULD play through this if necessary and probably would be playing if this happened mid-season.

Congratulations to Cholly. I wanted him gone after '06 and even after '07 but he's earned an extention of this value and proved to be the right manager for this team even if his tactical skills are sometimes lacking.

BAP- I didn't want to miss out on commending you for your back-to-back posts in the last thread: the first one trying to make the case that the Phils actually were filled with good fortune last year, and the second that your prediction of 88 wins was actually dead on despite being off by nine. Not one person that's actually grounded in reality would buy either argument, but both were pretty good examples of how lawyers get paid a ridiculous amount of money by forming arguments based on nothing but the ability to form compound sentences and copious amounts of righteous indignation.

My side still hurts from laughing at Mitch Williams' suggestion that the Phillies acquire Pedro Feliz.

Iceman, you got divorced and have a lawyer take you to the cleaners too, huh?

Iceman: If you were able to spot "righteous indignation" in that post, you need to get your eyes checked. CJ was bragging about how his rose-colored predictions had proved more accurate than Jack and my grim ones. So I was yanking his chain a little with an obviously ridiculous assertion, which I knew would get a rise out of certain posters. And sure enough, it did.

And, as for the post about being "filled with good fortune," that's obviously not what I said. You & many others seem to reason: "We won 97 games last year with lots of injuries, no Cliff Lee, & only a half year of Oswalt; hence, we'll win at least 97 games, and probably far more, this year." I was simply identifying a few, though by no means all, of the reasons why that is painfully false logic.

Scotch: Mitch makes it a habit to come up with a bizarre and difficult-to-defend point of view. I think he does it just to amuse himself and to irritate Al Leiter.

I'd rather have patella tendinitis than Pedro Feliz.

Question...if it was early July, and Chase missed 6 or 7 games with a sore knee that wasn't considered a risk for surgery, would people be freaking out this much? Or is this magnified because there's absolutely nothing else to talk about since there's no "real" baseball being played right now?

Wow, it becomes increasingly difficult to live in the middle and my "emerging pessimism" is bound to come to light, but I have to agree with BAP here. I understood exactly where he was going with the "good fortune" post.

So many here are so quick to assume that everyone will play to statistical norms, or to last year's performance, whichever better suits their rose-colored outlook. A player who had a down year is bound to "bounce back." If injuries were a concern last season, this season they won't take as big a toll. If a player has been declining, it's the result of some outlier that isn't in play this season. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

Well, for every player that does, indeed, bounce back, you can pretty well bet that someone else will underperform. For every bad break that we won't see again this year, there will be a different "bad break" to overcome.

No one argues that the Phils upgraded their starting pitching staff. However, 97+Cliff Lee-Jayson Werth doesn't automatically add up to anything, to be quite candid. It's rather naive to think that the things that work will continue to work, while the things that haven't will be different and they'll work.

At any rate, no one really knows anyway, so the constant beating the hell out of each other for having an opposing opinion (no matter how many stats you throw out, it's still an opinion) will continue. To be honest, I actually love the sniping, the back-handed shots and the outright name-calling on this site, that's why I come here - it's entertaining!

But what do I know, I'm just an "emerging pessimist" who has also EARNED the honor of being called an idiot by clout.

If I give Utley my right knee, will I get a ring if we win the WS?

"To be honest, I actually love the sniping, the back-handed shots and the outright name-calling on this site, that's why I come here - it's entertaining!"

To each their own.

With clout being the lone exception (as his sniping actually is entertaining), I find that most of the sarcasm and inside joke references remind me of a lunch table of junior high school girls or an anime nerd message board.

It's rare and refreshing when I read anything that a decent human being would have the self respect to say in person to someone.

"I'm just an "emerging pessimist" who has also EARNED the honor of being called an idiot by clout."

That's actually one of the requirements for entry to the Beerleaguer Elite.

So you spend a lot of time with junior high girls and on anime sites?

Interesting.

"So you spend a lot of time with junior high girls and on anime sites?"

You know they're really 35 year old guys living in their parents basement.

I think it would be a mistake for the Phils to make a big move for somebody like the Rangers' Young and trade Blanton and/or some of their top prospects.

When the Phils signed Cliff Lee, that gave them a nice cushion for 2011, even with the loss of Werth and even if they were to trade Blanton.

Because of the question marks surrounding Utley's health, I think the best move (or non-move) is to double down on the pitching and hold onto Blanton at all costs. Over the course of a full season, Blanton probably is worth two more wins to the Phillies than Kendrick.

I agree with those posters who would make a small, inexpensive move to bolster the infield. There should be some additional players available at the end of ST as teams firm up their rosters.

The chances of one of the four starters being injured for a significant amount of time are not all that small. If that happens, we'll be glad to have Blanton rather than Kendrick/Worley as a fourth starter. I'd hold on to Blanton unless there are good money reasons not to.

"Ever think of chatting about baseball for a while instead of your boring and seemingly endless personal comments about other posters?:

Will S, id that a "personal comment" or "chatting about baseball"?

Any way someone can look up the RBI's out of the 5 hole for other other teams last year?

Many here fear the loss of Werth and wonder how much the addition of Lee will offset his absence. I agree Werth is not easily replaceable, but people forget how terrible he hit with runners in scoring position last year (in the 5 hole). He only had 85 RBI. Not that difficult to replace, honestly.

I just don't believe the dropoff in production from Werth '10 to Francisco '11 will be that significant in terms of run production.
I look for this year's offense to outperform last years (as long as Utley only misses a month or so--which he did last year as well.)

"So many here are so quick to assume that everyone will play to statistical norms,"

Preacher, it is also true that many here seem to ass-u-me that everyone will experience age related decline or play under statistical norms.

Out of 8 regular players and Valdez (who played a lot and it looks like he will again), 4 played above or at their statistical norms last season: Raul, Valdez, Werth and Chooch. Rollins, Utley, Howard, Victorino and Polanco all had down years.

Are you saying that we should ass-u-me that Rollins, Utley, Howard, Victorino and Polanco will all have down years again, and that Raul, Valdez, and Chooch and Ben Fran will also perform below their statistical norms as well? What are you saying?


"It's rather naive to think that the things that work will continue to work, while the things that haven't will be different and they'll work."

Things? What "things"? Please be specific.


"At any rate, no one really knows anyway,"

EXACTLY! That's why I (and I speak only for myself) do not agree with the Doomsday Dopes.


It waaay to early to draw any conclusions about this team.

No one knows what Utley's status is going to be next week much less at the start of the season. No one knows whether Howard is going to hit 31 HR again, or 45 or 58. No one knows how soon Brown will be able to contribute. No one knows when or even if one of the starting pitchers will get dinged up. No one knows whether the other teams in the league or division will sustain serious injuries.

No one knows anything about the upcoming season at this point.

All that one can do is look to the past to try to find examples that might shed some light on what could or will be.

Both sides can find examples to support their position.


But I wonder whether Charlie, Howard, Rollins, Utley, Polanco, Ruiz, Victorino, Ibanez, Francisco, Lidge, Madson, Contreras, Blanton, Lee, Halladay, Hamels, Oswalt, Kendrick, Valdez, Gload, Baez, Romero, Worley, Brown, or any of the other guys on the roster think

season = over?

Brett: True, Werth struggled with RISP from the 5-hole.

He also had a .388 OBP and led the team in runs. Somehow I doubt our 5-hitter this year will lead the team in runs.

"Will S, id that a "personal comment"

Try as I might, I couldn't think of a way to weave your horsesh*t into a baseball comment. You're quite good at it.

"Doomsday Dopes"? Seriously...

BAP has the best defense on the board. He makes a stupid assertion, then pretends he did it just to get a rise out of us.

All ignorant posters now have a sound defense. When someone points out your factual errors, just say you did it on purpose.

Jack: "Somehow I doubt our 5-hitter this year will lead the team in runs."

I agree. Unless our 1-, 3- and 4-hitters are all out with injuries for a significant time.

Which is why our 5-hitter last year led the team in runs.

Jack, I understand that he scored the most runs, but as clout mentions, that is more of an indication of the top-of-the-lineup's absence.

Also, it is a more important function of the 5 hole hitter to knock in runs than to cross the plate himself. He was abysmal with RISP and my main point is that our 5th batter this year will likely come close to producing as many runs as Werth did in 2010.

Brett, Jack is correct. You cannot measure any player with one statistic such as RBI. Werth contributed in a lot of other ways as well.

That said, some here seem to think the loss of Werth is a zero sum game in that his loss will lead to sums of zero in the 5 hole.

In '09-'10 Werth averaged 664 PA, 36 3B, 32 HR, 92 RBI, 16 SB, 3 CS, .282/.380/.519.

Francisco, when given lot of playing time in '08-'09 averaged 479 PA, 31 2B, 15 HR, 50 RBI, 9 SB, 5 CS, .262/.332/.442.

You can't really extrapolate BenFran's '08-'09 averages because you can't say how he would really perform, but if you DID do it just as an intellectual exercise, in 664 PA BenFran averages extrapolate to 43 2B, 20-21 HR, 69 RBI, 12 SB, 7 CS, and of course .262/.332/.442.

Francisco is NOT Jayson Werth, but it's not a zero sum game either.

Will, you need to drop your obsession with me.

AAMOF, I don't know why you even pay attention to me anyway - you've already dismissed me as a racist because I believe there's a rational basis to question the age of players born in countries where falsifying birth records has actually occured.

Still, if you want to talk baseball I'll engage, even if you are a Doomsday Dope Club member.

awh: Obviously it's not a "zero-sum" game as you use the term. Just like losing Ryan Howard doesn't mean you'd lose 45 HRs--you'd replace him with another 1B, most of whom can probably hit at least 20 HR in a season.

All you're saying is that you simply measure Werth's marginal value--what he provided above what the replacement for him will. Usually this is done objectively (compared to a replacement-level hypothetical) but you can do it subjectively as well (compare him to the person actually replacing, Francisco, as you've done).

That is absolutely the right way to measure a player's contributions.

awh, I'm not talking about '09 Werth. I'm talking about the difference between Werth last year and Francisco this year.

I know a 5-hole hitter's function isn't to just knock in runs, but I'd say it is his most important offensive contribution beyond simply getting on base.

My main point is that the dropoff in offense from the 5 hole won't be as dramatic as people are concerned it will be.

Jack, don't get me wrong.

Plenty can go wrong with the 2011 Philadelphia Phillies.

I just think it's way to early to be even a little concerned about some of the things I've seen on this board.

Yes, the Utley injury is a concern because losing him would hurt and cost the team games - and it looks like he's going to miss the start of the season. But we don't know how long he'll be out. For all we know he misses 2 weeks and comes back like a champ. We'll see.

I'm not concerned about the lack of hitting at this point - not after 10 ST games. And guess what? It looks like the pitching should be what it's cracked up to be, but then again, it's only 10 games.

awh: Trust me, I'm not basing my concerns about the team on anything that's happened in the last 10 days, other than obviously increased concern over Utley.

Every single season I preach about how meaningless ST stats are. That's probably my most consistent point on here, other than that Ryan Howard sucks.

Any worry that I have about the team is based on totally different premises than Spring Training stats.

Brett, on that point we agree. I don't think the dropoff from '10 Werth will be doomsday either. See my post above.

Also, some of the dropoff could be made up if some of the other guys rebound to near their career averages.

It's too early to tell, but I'm not worried this early in ST.

Brett, one other thought:

Those here who have expressed concern about the loss of Werth have also argued with the concept that other players could make up the loss of production, and they mostly cite age-related decline as a reason.

However, Werth is entering his own age 32 season, and it cannot be assumed that Werth himself, were he still in the Phillies lineup, would not suffer some sort of age-related decline.

In short, it's no guarantee that Werth2011 will equal Werth2010/2009.

awh: Yes, Werth getting older is obviously a concern, and why the Phillies were absolutely right to not give him the deal the Nats did through his age 37 season (though they did give that deal to the lesser athlete in Ryan Howard...never mind. Discussion for plenty of other days). It is also true that there is risk of a slight decline in Werth's production this year at age 32, just like there is for Utley, Howard, Victorino et al.

That said, that does nothing to mitigate the idea that the Phils offense as a whole is still worse off than last year. All you're saying is that with Werth, maybe it would be better, but still not as good. Either way, ceteris paribus, the offense is worse than last year.

Top of the order:

Cholly went with the old-standby of JRoll in the leadoff spot with Vic in the 2-hole. Polanco hit 3rd and Ibanez hit 5th.

Cholly did use Vic in the leadoff spot though the other day with Polanco in the 2-hole with JRoll hitting 3rd.

JRoll, Vic, and Polanco are going to hie in the top 3 spots in the order with Utley sidelined but I am kind of curious over the next ~2 weeks what spots they hit.

Personally, I would like to see Vic leadoff with Polanco 2nd and JRoll 3rd. Hit Francisco 5th and Ibanez 6th.

2nd lefty spot:

Zagurski and Meyer are certainly get their share of looks too in the early going with Zagurski having the early edge.

Still Bastardo's job to lose and as long as he is healthy, he will be on the opening day roster with both Zagurski & Meyer opening the season at Lehigh. With Bastardo's inability to stay healthy and Romero's uneven performance, it wouldn't surprise me if one of those guys does get a shot this year to show they belong & help the club for at least a few weeks.

Jack, minor correction: Werth's deal is through his age 38 season.

MG: Against a righty, I would bat Rollins leadoff, Ibanez 3rd, and Victorino 6th.

Shane can't hit lefty. He should be dropped in the order when he has to do so.

Of course, none of this matters because Charlie won't change his lineup around like that.

BAP- you don't have to backpedal. I was really giving you a compliment this time. First off, I hadn't even said anything of significance to Jack other than asking him a few questions. He seems like a guy that spends time sniping at people like me, who are almost always optimistic, and so he gives off the impression that he sees tons of things wrong with the team. He's never really been on record with how bad he thinks they will be, though, so I was just wondering if I could get his concrete prediction at this point, with the team the way it is currently constituted and Utley out for an indefinite amount of time. I don't see anything wrong with me asking him the questions and he certainly had every right to ignore them.

You skillfully turned that into me taking "grave offense" to something he said when I never even came close to inferring such a thing. You set up that straw-man to use the rest of your argument that the Phils were actually full of performances that we can't possibly expect again this year, and listed them in some fine lawyerly bullet points. You basically pretended to be incredulous about something you [at least should] know I never said or even implied.

That was the first one that deserves commendation. The second was CJ calling you out on a typical negative prediction (coincidentally you also predicted Halladay would be a disappointment and would have close to a 4ERA, which CJ didn't point out) from last season. You could have ignored it or said "haha, you got me," but instead pretended that everything after the Oswalt trade should be stricken from the record because we 'didn't know it was gonna happen,' while somehow you did know about the copious amounts of injuries the Phils would suffer up to that point as basis for your 88-win prediction, and (this is my favorite) pro-rating all win predictions as if the season ended July 30th...all I can say is, you've topped yourself again. Is there a contract you all had to sign with a bunch of fine print before making these predictions or something? Was there an Oswalt loophole?

Just admit you were wrong and move on. I was wrong about the Phils pitching dominating the Giants' lineup in the NLCS- dreadfully wrong. See? It isn't difficult.

But really, congratulations on your ability to create arguments out of thin air and argue the hell out of them, THEN pretend you were doing it all as a joke. It's a lucrative skill to have and I'm sure you're making a nice career out of it. If I were dropped on to this planet today and read your post about the Phils' good fortune last year, alien-me would have been thrilled to hear about what certainly sounds (according to you) like a fun-filled six months chock full of career years of players who are all almost certain to regress, along with the rest of the team, this year. Unfortunately I live on this planet and can re-live how stressful last summer was with the pathetic lineups we were running out there day after day due to injuries by checking out some game threads in June or July and realizing how most people on here were dangling off a bridge by the All-Star break.

MG, we agree. I won't be surprised either if those two lefties get a shot.

AAMOF, I wouldn't be surprised if a couple of the RH bullpen guys get a shot.


In 2010, 21 different pitchers took the mound for the Phillies at one time or another.


I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Iceman, don't expect bap to own up to it.

He's a charter member of the Doomsday Dopes Club. :)

(AAMOF, I think he's Chairman and President.)

Brett- exactly right and it's a point I made a few times here before. I actually like your argument that his performance out of the 5-hole specifically is what hurt the team most, not just the fact that he was horrific with RISP. He was horrific in almost every RBI opportunity literally for months, and he's in one of the biggest RBI slots in the lineup.

Again, to say Werth's struggles to drive runners in from the 5-spot was a big part of the problem during the larger offensive swoons last year (which it was) is A) Not saying that is a knock on him as a player- it's just pointing out a fact. And B) it's not to say they won't miss him in the lineup. They will. The loss is significant.

But comparing this year's offense to last year, you gotta look at the more than two months where Werth's numbers for driving runs across the plate were staggeringly bad and see that was a reason they had their worst offensive season in quite a few years. We're not losing the guy who carried our lineup through last year.

Frankly I'm not as worried about losing Werth for the long-haul regular season as I am for the stretch-run and the playoffs, where he always seemed to put together good ABs and come up big in big spots. One of the reasons he was a favorite player of mine. It will be a huge loss there.

Trouble is, I think Rube will make a move for a bat before the deadline- maybe sooner if Utley's prognosis worsens (or opts for surgery) in the coming weeks. So hopefully that problem gets fixed come August/September.

awh- as a Charter Member of the Susie Sunshine Society(TM), I'm ineligible to vote for the Doomsday Dopes Club chairmen of elders. However I don't see how anyone could be a better candidate than BAP. He was the first and as he's shown today, he's still the best.

I too believe the difference between Jayson's stats in '10 and our starting RF in '11 will not be that great. Where we could lose a lot is in protecting Ryan and production in the playoffs. Those things are tough to gauge.

Joe Blanton straight up for Mike Young and then send Dom Brown to the Twins for Liriano. . . Utley problem solved and we go with 5 aces. Maybe look into sending Jon Singleton to Seattle for King Felix so we can have an ace swingman too.

Story on ESPN about how Utley's injury gives the Braves the division. . . poppycock says I. Writer failed to mention that Hudson & Hanson would be 5th starters on the Phillies and that the Braves team defense is atrocious. And, I'd really only take 2 of their hitters over our guys (McCann & Heyward).

Protection is a myth. Ryan Howard's effectiveness will not change based on who his "protection" is. It's my single biggest pet peeve in baseball media is the concept of protection of a cleanup hitter.

overall OBP and OPS is what dictates success in a lineup throughout the order. If top of the order guys are getting on base, Howard will still get fastballs.

I'm still waiting for someone to pop up and suggest the following:

Trade prospects to the Mets for Wright, move Polly to 2B, play Wright at 3B and move Utley to LF when he's healthy.


It seems to happen (or some variation of the same) everytime there's an injury concern to Chase. It won't happen, its never gonna happen and neither team would even consider it.

NEPP: I think it's you that bring it up everytime. :-)

Nope...I usually rip into the person that posts it as the Mets would NEVER trade him to the Phillies.

JBird: Gonzalez at SS and McCann at catcher save the Braves from being a complete disaster on defense. McLouth in CF and Uggla at 2B are the obvious holes, and I dont much about Freeman and Heyward's defense on the right side but ol man Chipper and newcomer Prado sure aren't brightspots.

Congrats to Charlie, looks like its finalized. Well deserved and extremely glad they didnt wait until after this season. That would have just been begging for a potential distraction during the year.

All the Charlie haters will still call for his head every 2 game losing streak, but its nice to know that they'll be miserable for another 3 seasons.

I did not log on to beerleaguer today expecting to see a reference to "anime nerd message boards" and I have to admit that my life now feels complete. Thank you, Will!

Anyway, this Utley injury--as with any--is a decided "wait and see" thing. Chances are no one knows how severe it is or how long it will last or anything at this point. The big thing that concerns me is that the people who MIGHT be in a position to know (the F.O., and by extension, Charlie) referred Utley to a scenario like Inge. Which might imply THEY think it isn't going to be a simple little problem.

But what do I know? I certainly know less than most of all'y'all about these things.

Yo, newer thread

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