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Sunday, February 27, 2011

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Couldn't agree more J. I don't mind him missing the games -- he needs to get right for April. But the schtick is old.

now we know why uts didnt wrestle with dennis and charlie (sunny in phila). what was howard's excuse?

JW, I would ditto you on the Baez jersey, except I'm scared sh****ss that the baseball gods might see fit to mock me by having him break camp with the team, thereby forcing me to wear that jersey. I can then see him being released afterwards, but the damage would already have been done.


Agree on the Utley points. Chase is famous for "manning up" and playing when he's not 100%, so what's the big deal about manning up and being honest with the fans when he's not 100%. Does he really think we'd think less of him?

I've just come to accept that we cannot count on Utley to be a difference maker in the lineup on a consistent basis.

I'll take Ibanez in a key spot in October over Utley because when Raul has a bat in his hands, I can have a reasonable expectation that he's not secretly crippled.

because he doesn't want to and that's the way it's going to be. just deal with it. you can't change it

and awh, i don't think he gives a crap what people think or don't think

Bold statement there JW! While I believe we're removed from it, it wasn't that long ago that the guy with the contract was the one who made the club. That being said, I think Baez's chances are slim to none.

If Baez does not break camp with a spot in the 'pen, I'll pay for some custom made Cuban cigar knock-offs and smoke'em every time the Phils play.

If he does break camp, I'll still do the cigar thing, but pair them with scotch. LOTS of scotch.

In re: Utley
Still not ready to trade him for Cano. He may be a stubborn, tobaccy chewin', block-headed jock, but he's OUR stubbon, tobaccy-chewin', block-headed jock.

P.S. Don't call him "scrappy." Even with dirt on his uniform, he hits too many dingers.

st, agree - I'm sure he doesn't care what we think, but that's not the point.

The point is that HE must think what he DOES do vis-a-vis being forthcoming is a big deal. Personally, all I care about is that he makes it on the field. He's useless to me, otherwise.

I should have been more clear in my earlier post.

Jayson Werth used to @#$% guys like Dalton in prison.

Scott, jayson werth is dead to me.

It's hilarious that the Nats bristle at the way the Phillies treat them. Especially since their pitchers have thrown more at Utley (18 HBP), Howard (8 HBP) and Ruiz (5 HBP) than any other team.

They're also second on Victorino's list (5 HBP) and third for Rollins (3 HBP).

If I were Washington's general manager, I probably wouldn't brag about fostering a nastier atmosphere if the biggest non-Strasburg highlight from last year featured a player of mine getting into a WWE-style fight and being dragged from the field. But maybe the six Nationals season ticket holders like that sort of thing.

GoBaystars did a nice job answering the question about Pujols on the previous thread: If he's so good, why did he go in the 13th round?

A couple of details are worth adding: The $60,000 bonus was well above slot for a 13th rounder in 1999. And, far from being obscure, Maple Woods is a Juco baseball powerhouse in KC. So it's not as if he was unknown, but there were enough issues to cause him to slip that low.

He'd only played one season, so teams had to focus more on his projectibility. But he was good enough, they knew they'd have to pay above slot unless they wanted to burn a high pick on him. Many assumed he'd play another year at Juco to build his value or transfer to a major college.

The Cardinals and Royals had the most scouts in the area and the Royals NEVER paid above slot in those days, so the Cards had the best shot. He was a shortstop, but scouts were concerned about his weight and mobility down the road so there was a question about his ultimate position.

He didn't have blazing speed either, another minus. But his bat looked like the real deal and the Cards were more than happy to grab him and pay above slot.

You may recall in his rookie year, it was still uncertain where he'd play. Although he played 3B in the minors, he started his first major league game in LF. In his rookie year, Pujols played both OF and INF corners.

Via Salisbury:

Amaro says Utley had MRI yest. Patella tendinitis.

Maybe it's time for a position change for Uts, maybe next year he'll be our starting LF

from last theard

Remember when Cliff Lee was gonna sign with the Yankees? How about when Roy Halladay was pissed he didn't get traded to philly at the deadline? Or when Roy Oswalt wouldn't except a trade to Philadelphia.. With his organization anything is possible. (pretty awesome to say) If I told you 2 years that RAJ would acquire 4 aces via trade/FA Lee 2x, Halladay, Oswalt

we all would have said never gonna happen but it did

fingers crossed on Big AL

UT OH

Chase Utley - 2B - Phillies

Chase Utley had an MRI Saturday on his knee.
Utley is battling a bit of patella tendinitis and won't play in a spring game until it is no longer causing him discomfort. For a guy with his recent injury history, this news comes as worrisome. It's not known when he might be able to make his Grapefruit League debut.

Patella tendinitis.

Gee Chase, did it hurt that much when we found out?

Patella Tendinitis in the knee.

Is that just a fluke injury too, or might we be concerned about the age of our offensive stars yet?

I love Utley as much as anyone on here. But it does look more and more like his body may not be up to the task of long-term stardom. I sure hope this is just a blip on the radar, though. As JW notes, at his best, he is the best all-around player on the Phillies.

This little blip on mlbtr from a Carfado column in the Boston GLobe, could very well have been written about Utley, no?:


"When the Red Sox drew the line at four years and $52MM for Adrian Beltre, one of their fears was his potential to get hurt given his all-out approach. Beltre suffered a calf strain recently and may be out for up to a month."

patella tendonitis is not a big deal. it's just overuse do to extensive workouts. basically he's got knee soreness which is exactly what they reported he had. just needs rest and ice. pretty common injury actually

Patella tendonitis is actually pretty common in some sports, but not really baseball. I wonder if Utley's play caught up with him a little here or if he over-trained in the off-season.

probably over trained is my guess

st: No, patella tendinitis is only because the team is getting old.

For the rest of you- be prepared for every injury this year to lead to some form of Jack posting, "Can we worry about our age now?"

Everybody got worked up over Werth missing the first 3 spring training games last year because he was out of shape. Big deal.

If Utley still has 'patella tendinitis' by Clout Day and has a cortisone shot in the interim, then it might actually might something.

Natural move wasn't to shift Utley to LF but really move him to 1B next year possibly. Obviously out the window now unless the crazy Pujuls-Howard deal takes place.

In fantasy land, I would love to see that deal (even though Howard is my favorite Phils' player), move Utley over to 1B/LF next season, and if push comes to shove let Pujols walk & use the savings to sign Hamels long-term and other uses (FA etc). Team gradually needs to start getting younger and that would be a good start.

TTI: Yeah, it would be crazy to point out a possible correlation between increasing age and increasing injury concerns. How ridiculous a concept.

In what universe is 32 old? He's not an NFL running back.

Still think Michael Young wouldn't have gotten enough at bats in Philly?

I'll bet money that at the end of the season, Valdez will have had more plate appearances than at least one starting infielder.

Jack: It's crazy when you do it all the time. Your the type of person who says something 100 times and is wrong 99 times. That one time though you make sure to let everyone know you nailed it.

for me personally i'd like to see no day after nights for uts & a lot of valdez late in games. hell if it's the 5th and he had his ab and we're up by 3 or 4 i'd pull him when one of the 4 aces is on the hill

TTI: So are you saying this time I'm right?

Anyway, I don't really think you have a problem with the substance of what I'm saying. Everyone with common sense recognizes that as players get older they will get injured more. For whatever reason, you have a problem with me and have decided to argue with everything I say. That's cool, I guess. Let's just be honest about it though, you know?

Jack: Keep trying to put words in my mouth. And don't play the martyr.

Utley has an injury right now that is fairly common in sports. It can easily be explained by over-training or a few other things before you get to age. You went right to age. That's because it's your one singular line of logic you want to push.

I argue with you when you say something wrong or stupid. I've also given you credit when you've said things in the past I agree with. It's not that "I don't like you."

Hopefully it's a blip in a long season, but it seems like a long time since Chase has been 100%. I'm a little worried, rational or not.

TTI: The thing is, you can explain away every individual injury on its own. The thumb was a freak sliding thing. The hip--well, I'm not sure what the explanation is there, but I'm sure there is something people used. This injury is from over-training or just general athletic activity.

The point is that, viewed in the aggregate, a clear trend emerges. The guy is increasingly getting injured as he gets older. This also fits with our basic understanding of how people's bodies work--your body doesn't work as well as you get older. I understand this idea isn't working at the most fine level of granularity. But sometimes it makes more sense to look at something at a larger level of abstraction to get a real view of what's happening.

Jack: You attributed the thumb injury last year to his age. You are doing it again by saying all these things are an indicator that he is getting older.

Here's something you apparently are not aware of. Even the most fit of 21 year olds can get injured. If you slide wrong, or overtrain your going to get injured- it does not matter how old you are. But the dialogue of your thought is that he is old, hence every injury is because of age. That is silly.

Reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patellar_tendinitis

"not a blown out knee
just over-worked it is all"
Sure, Chase, whatever.

"Patients present with an ache over the patella tendon. Most patients are between 10 and 16 years old."

I guess its not age-related then.

TTI: No, you missed my last post. Like I said, any individual injury can be explained away.

In the aggregate, though? The missed games and the affected performance are what they are. If you want to think that this team isn't affected by having every single regular except Dom Brown above 30 years old, then that's your choice. Personally, I think it's obvious that age is a real concern.

"If you want to think that this team isn't affected by having every single regular except Dom Brown above 30 years old, then that's your choice. Personally, I think it's obvious that age is a real concern."

Jack: You're seriously not even worth talking to if you're going to misrepresent what I'm saying like that.

It's not like I think it's good Utley misses time with injuries, but I don't think his injuries are the cause of age. A freak slide, patella tendinitis- those are not age related injuries. One if a fluke and the other could be caused by any number of things. Age could be a cnoncern for the team but not because it makes them more susceptible to injuries.

Phillies FO speak Translator:

Patella Tendinitis = Leg Amputated Above Knee


Hopefully, Utley will learn how to play on a prosthetic by the end of ST.

"Age could be a concern for the team but not because it makes them more susceptible to injuries."

Ok, I have directly quoted you, so ensuring that I am not misrepresenting what you are saying. I disagree with this statement entirely. I mean, I just find it hard to believe that a doctor or medical professional would say that increasing age does not correlate with increasing susceptibility to injury, in the aggregate. That flies in the face of every possible common sense understanding of the aging process. Maybe I'm way off-base here, but I thought it was pretty standard understanding that the older you get, the more susceptible you are to injury?

timr: so Chase finally hit a growth spurt

Jack: LAst year Utley hurt himself sliding into a base. Polanco was hurt and battled injuries all year after being hit in the elbow by a pitch. Both of those injuries you attributed to age. Please explain how someone being younger would lead to them not being hit by a pitch or sliding awkwardly into a base.

The issue I have with your line of thought is that you want to attribute every single injury to age. You've done that in the past and you did it here with your first post. An injury can't just be an injury for you- it has to be an indicator of something considerably larger. I can only imagine that is because it's the line of thought you want to put out there.

You're arguing two separate lines here as you're either forgetting what you're saying or just trying to prove me wrong. I don't disagree that age could lead to injuries. However, I don't think the Phillies have had any age related injuries.

Aging makes people more susceptible to injuries.

Period.

End of story.

Beerleaguer: Every day, we find new ways to debate against common sense.

I think TTI overtrained his anti-Jack workouts this offseason.

I need to make a list of people on here who can handle two, or more, lines of thinking at once, and those that can't. It would make this place a lot easier. Will gets added to the former list.

Again- age could make someone more susceptible to injuries. However, the injuries that have been pointed to in the past two years as being "age related" are not. Also, being who are not aging could get injured too. Aging actually affects recovery time more than injury susceptibility.

Update: Utley has been admitted to the hospital in critical condition and is now on full life-support as he cannot breathe on his own.

TTI: "Aging actually affects recovery time more than injury susceptibility."

Ironically, that was my entire point about Polanco's injury last year. Age didn't affect him being hit on the elbow. It might, however, have affected the fact that the injury lingered for months and caused an additional DL stint well after it actually happened.

re: a Pujols for Howard deal

If the cards were offering Pujols 20m/year why would they pay howard 25m/year?

The players in the deal (Howard + pitching for Pujols) can make all the sense in the world, but if the money doesn't work the trade doesn't work.


Jack: I honestly don't remember you ever saying that last year. If you did I missed it and thus owe you an overdue, "I agree."

I'm afraid that if Lidge walked into the Clubhouse and saw Pujols, he'd running screaming deep into the night.

"The hip--well, I'm not sure what the explanation is there, but I'm sure there is something people used."


Jack, Phillipe Aumont has a bad hip. J.C. Ramirez had off-season hip surgery. Both are in their early 20's.

Are those age-related hip injuries, just like Utley's?


Age DOES make one more suceptible to injury, as the normal wear and tear adds up over time. However, as someone who tore his ACL at the age of 22, I can assure you it's not the be-all-and-end-all.

I have heard the best indicator for predicting an injury is having had a previous injury. This is why someone like Gillies, at the age of 22, is a risk to blow a hammy again, unless he eases back into things. IIRC, many of the injuries Chipper Jones had were either 'repeats' or related to prior injuries that he sustained.


But, Jack, despite your being correct in a global sense about the wear and tear of age beign a possible contributor, in this case TTI is correct:

The injuries Utley has had the last couple of years could just as easily have happened to a 20 year old.

er, "run."

yo new thread

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