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Saturday, January 08, 2011


Could end up being the next Carlos Santanna.

Maybe if he learns the guitar.

Scott, where have u been? That's old news.

What will the name of the shuttle between Lehigh and Philly be named this year?

Meyer Mover?

Hop in the van Dan.

Bed Beard: I guess I've been hibernating.

I hope the Phillies request outright waivers on Escalona rather than release waivers because with outright waivers the Phillies would retain control of him in the minors if he cleared waivers.

NEPA - And that would be great because they would use him to case they need, umn...when they want um....

Okay: SOMEONE needs to polish Middleton's lighter.

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but Dallas Green's 9 year old granddaughter was one of the victims yesterday in the Arizona shooting.

I knew that she was born on 9/11/2001, but I didn't know she was Green's granddaughter.

Looks like someone took Sharon Angle's "second amendment remedies" comment seriously. The tea party and the Fox News political televangelists really needs to think before they speak. Their rhetoric about guns and socialism and the constitution are going to inspire dangerous, unstable people to acts of violence.

Sad and senseless tragedy. I'm hoping they stand up and take responsibility for their words so this doesn't happen again.

WS: Nice touch take a tragedy and politicize it.

While I really don't care to get involved in this discussion, and certainly have no intention of agreeing one way or the other with Will's comments, saying you shouldn't "politicize" the targeted shooting of a politician is kind of like saying "let's not make the MLK assassination about race."

Jack: Yeah, some people getting a little defensive about it. Tells you a lot.

The 9 year old child killed in yesterdays rampage in Tucson was the granddaughter of Dallas Green.

That idiot is gonna have an appointment with the needle...the only question is whether its the Feds or the state of AZ that does it. Both have the Death Penalty and both have jurisdiction.

Will, the problem I have with your post is that it not only attempts to assign guilt by association, it goes even further and attempts to assign guilt without any association.

Quite frankly, though it's in electronic print, it's an example of the same kind of smearing "rhetoric" which you seem to be condemning.

And, ironically, the internet and blogosphere on both sides of the political spectrum are responsible for much of the rhethric.

The cowardly and senseless act of violence yesterday in Arizona was morally wrong and a tragedy for all of the families who lost loved ones or saw them injured.

Please be a little more careful in the future before your fingertips shoot from the hip.

My main question is how it is possible for someone so seriously deranged to legally buy a firearm and, separately evidently, oversize clips. I understand the NRAs insistence on protecting the second amendment, but could they at least insist on a much better system of background checking? I mean, really, how dangerously crazy do you need to be before someone refuses to sell you a dangerous weapon?

While I do agree with Will's sentiment that certain political groups and media outlets should do a better job of toning down vitriol, it is grossly irresponsible to be doling out accusations and/or placing blame before we know what this individual's motivations were, if he even had any. This guy clearly was a disturbed individual, and it's entirely possible his issues had no correlation to anything he ever heard on television.

Sometimes, horrible things happen. It only makes things worse when people start stamping guilt on entire groups of people before knowing the entire story.

This senseless act of violence is really a sad day for America...and the tie to our local sports scene makes it feel less isolated and distant.
While of course no one advocated for this, the ever present show of guns (which had been well documented before this tragedy) at the campaign rallies of the Congresswoman's tea party opponent and the several protests during that campaign when people gathered to shoot guns and automatics into the air to show their displeasure with government and the congresswoman's politics don't exactly contribute to a healthy exchange of ideas and I personally think set a bad precedent for political campaigns. Who knows what effect such actions can have on sick people? The tea party candidate was worried enough that he has already issued a statement that the use of guns at his rallies was not at all intended to result in this type of tragedy. Of course it wasn't, but.....
My sympathy to Dallas Green and all others touched by this rampage.

Two reasons Andy...first, he had no prior criminal offenses when he bought it and, secondly, medical records are confidential. You cant deny a gun permit (though AZ, like VT, does not require a concealed carry permit) based on them.

Its a slippery slope argument...Who's to say what medical conditions, what mental conditions should preclude ownership? Should it be Mental illness? Would that include those that suffer from Depression, ADHD and other conditions described in DSM IV?

Bottom line though is you can't stop crazy. You cant stop someone who doesnt care about dying.

~Not an NRA member~

~Not a Teaparty guy~

~Fairly liberal to moderate Independent~

Iceman, well said.

Andy, if this guy is as mentally unstable as he has so far been protrayed in the media, would stricter gun laws have made any difference. I would suspect that a motivated nut could obtain guns illegally, especially in Southern Arizona.

I'm just basing my response to what I've read about the shooter and his writings and videos on MySpace.

According to reports:
"During his campaign effort to unseat Giffords in November, Republican challenger Jesse Kelly held fundraisers where he urged supporters to help remove Giffords from office by joining him to shoot a fully loaded M-16 rifle. Kelly is a former Marine who served in Iraq and was pictured on his website in military gear holding his automatic weapon and promoting the event."

In addition, Palin and the tea party put out literature of a map with this district with a graphic of a gun scope, and Sharon Angle has gone on tv and radio suggesting that Americans may take "second amendment remedies" if the tea party loses at the election.

When a politician makes a public statement to the people about "second amendment remedies" (ie: using guns) to get your way if you lose a democratic election, it sends a DANGEROUS message, and that message was heard loud and clear by a disturbed individual who carried it out.

I'm not politicizing anything. A public figure (Sharon Angle) suggested that people use their guns to achieve political ends if they don't get their way in the election. If that isn't the very definition of domestic terrorist, nothing is.

I'm not happy about it either, but you can't pretend it isn't there no matter what your political philosophy is.

ps: the shooter was clearly disturbed, but that should make politicians like Sharon Angle be especially careful not to make public statements that incite violence and assassination attempts.

Disturbed people aren't going anywhere. There are plenty of them and it's perfectly legal for them to own a gun. With this in mind, it should be criminal for individuals like Glen Beck, Sarah Palin and Sharon Angle to rile these people up to commit acts of violence against innocent people.

There's no assumptions being made here. This was a political assassination attempt that happened several months after Sharon Angle suggested it. There is CLEAR cause and effect.

So, how bout them Phillies?

Will - I knew Keith Olberman was doing something in his off hours because he clearly wasn't putting any real thought into preparing for his show. Now we know he used the name Will Schweitzer and spends his time on BL.

There is no cause and effect for crazy. The most innocent statement can set off a madman, just as something not so innocent can. However, a politican taking supporters out to shoot rifles to show his support for their right to protect themselves is not the same thing as saying "let's kill my opponent, folks." In fact, it's a theatrical stunt used by politicians who often don't even support gun rights at all, so real gun rights people aren't impressed.

But Sharron Angle and Sarah Palin? Those two dopes couldn't lead a horse to water, much less make him drink. You don't know that this crazy person had ever even heard of those two. Cause and effect? Why, because you wish there were a cause and effect? I think not.

A crazy person's actions, or even a non-crazy person's actions, do not abrogate my right to protect myself without government permission. Just as your right to free speech does not end because dopes like Angle and Palin say stupid stuff.

Oh, and Escalona was just awful. Sad for him, but he was a waste of a roster spot, just as a few on there still are.

And knowing that the nine year old girl was Dallas Green's granddaughter doesn't make it any worse. It was already as awful as it could get. I can't even imagine what it would be like to lose a grandchild. Just awful.

The shooting is Arizona is another senseless tragedy. Best wishes to Dallas Green and his family and and all of the other victim's families in their hours and days of sorrow. God bless them all. Here's hoping that all of the survivors make full recoveries. God bless them as well.

Senseless incidents like this prove time and again that life is precious and short in the grand scheme of things. Baseball is a game, and like other sports, games are supposed to be fun. We take it way too seriously at times.

The same thing should happen to Sarah Palin and Sharon Angle that happened to Al Gore after the Discovery Channel hostage crisis. . . nothing. Most of these nut jobs hate both parties equally (ie the guy who shot up the Holocaust Museum hated George W. Bush) this causes them to feel isolated from political solutions to what they consider the serious problems of society. But hey Will Schweitzer, you stay classy.

When a politician suggests "second amendment remedies" if her party loses an election, please explain to me what else she could possibly be talking about.

Seriously, come up with any other interpretation other than using guns against the party that wins the election. I'm waiting...

Cause: Sharon Angle suggests shooting tea party opponents if the tea party loses.

Effect: Tea party opponents who are re-elected are shot at by an unstable individual less than two months after the election.

This isn't rocket science, and rather than offer platitudes about how sad it is, I'd rather see steps taken to prevent it from happening again.

The Discovery Channel example is weak. No surprise who is pushing it (in the media, not JBird)

oh Will, Maybe you should read actual quotes, this isn't the forum for the discussion, but if you want to at least be informed, go find the actual quote she didn't advocate she observed and commented. I'm not even an Angle/Palin fan, but you should try being informed rather than regugitating what you've read at TPM and the Huffington Post (Angle didn't run in AZ by the way and is no more responsible for this than D- Congressman Jim Moran is for the Holocaust Museum shooting). Regardless, Condolances to Green's family, a real tragedy.

Clearly the shooter was crazy, you can find his YouTube videos for evidence of that. But there are plenty of crazy people who don't go out and committ political assassinations. Although there has always been a "paranoid style" to American politics, the recent spare of inflammatory, conspiratorial political rhetoric has been waaaay more frequently coming from right wingers and tea party types. No fair minded observer could argue otherwise. If the Right is defensive about this stuff, it's because they've gotten used to making their case with scare tactics instead of honest debate (see "death panels," "Ground Zero mosque," etc.).

I have to agree with Will here. It's dangerous to talk about "Second Amendment Remedies" and not retreating, but reloading, etc.

This isn't about a political ideology. This isn't just random people on the internet, "smearing" that we're condemning or politicians advocating a cause that some people take to extremes. This is rhetoric encouraging violence coming from major politicians. The nation would be a better place if we all condoned it, instead of just pulling bs moral equivalence.

Wow... this is far worse than most off-season discussions on Beerleaguer.

Let's leave these discussions to the appropriate lefty or righty blogs... and I'm not talking LOOGYs!

Just to put some hysterical context to timr's assertion:

One of the funniest video's ever.

That said, I don't think that it should be a crime for Palin and Angle to say such things. Just that everyone should condone it and not pretend that saying such things doesn't make such shootings more likely.

And strictly speaking, I don't think that the crazies hate the two parties equally, although they do dislike both of them. We didn't see a lot of these guys when Bush was president.

Ed: there was a motion picture screened at Toronto's major film festival that showed W. getting assassinated and imagined how the world would be a better place if he did. You don't remember Bushitler? c'mon duude.

ANYWAY. . . if the Eagles win today, do the Phillies trade for Josh Johnson to be the 5th starter in an attempt to knock the Eagles off the front page?

Why JBird, have Gore or Moran put crosshairs on their opponent's districts, advocated "reloading" or condoned Second Amendment Remedies?
And if you go back and look at the Angle quote, she clearly associated herself with the people seeking 2nd Amendment remedies.

I'm not criticizing the policies Angle and Palin advocated. Rather, I'm criticizing the violent rhetoric, which Gore and Moran never, to my knowledge, engaged in (although Moran's a dick and I wish he would retire/lose).

And "Angle didn't run in Arizona?" Seriously? Even ignoring the fact that Arizona and Nevada are right near each other, it's called TV dude. Or the internet. What a politician says doesn't stop at the state line.

Don't feed the political trolls.

This is a baseball blog.

Come on people.

ED: I'll refer you to the Youtube video (Attack ads based on real Jefferson & Adams commentary) and my comment about the film "Death of a President".

CJ: Will Schweitzer started it.

The parents of a girl I know and have kept in touch with from high school semi-retired to Tucson a few years ago. They are peace activists and so they got involved with a couple local groups out there. When she visited them this past fall, she came back visibly upset as she attended a rally with them and was upset with all the counter protesters that she saw that clearly had guns on them. (We both thought that guns are supposed to be concealed at all times). She was worried about her parents and the atmosphere out there and had even mentioned the campaign of the congresswoman who was just shot and her republican opponent and the use of gun firings in the air at various protests. As she was telling a few of us about this on her return, we all thought something's not right about all this....things have gone too far."
Haven't talked to her since learning of the shooting.

Jbird: this isn't a game of Republican vs Democrat one upsmanship. Anyone, of any party, in any country, for any reason that suggests using violence to achieve a political end is WRONG.

As for Death Of A President (the movie you cited), your ignorance is showing if you think it's about the world being a better place if Bush were assassinated. In fact, the world ends up being a MUCH worse place. It's obvious that you haven't even seen the film and that you're just talking out of your ass.

The mets suck!

Rockstar - Thank God the Mets still suck!

JBird: I wonder how loud you would complain if Jose Reyes suggested that New Yorkers shoot Jimmy Rollins if the Phillies win the NL East this season. As absurd as that is, it's actually less ridiculous than what Sharon Angle did.

"Will Schweitzer started it."

And believe me, I'm sorry that I brought it up.

Will - why do you always resort to insulting people? You come on here and start a thread by politisizing a tragedy and then play holier-than-thou when others get offended.

Will - well, I'll drop it then.

Jbird: I didn't insult you. You really were talking out of your ass. No one who actually watched the movie, whether they enjoyed it or hated it, would say that it imagined the world as a better place if Bush were assassinated. It was an asinine comment made by someone who hadn't seen the film.

You tried to make a point on a bluff. You assumed that the movie vilified Bush and you assumed that no one here saw it to call you on your bs. You were wrong on both accounts, it bit you in the ass, and now you're feelings are hurt.

If you don't want to look foolish, don't make statements when you don't know what you're talking about. You insulted yourself on this one, pal.

I didn't politicize really IS a political situation. It was an attempt to assassinate a congresswoman. How can a situation possibly be more political than that?

As for your "holier than thou" comment, it really doesn't take a holy man to say that you ought not suggest shooting your political opponents as a part of your campaign for public office. And it doesn't take a genius to draw the connection when someone takes her advice two months after the election. You're being willfully ignorant on this one. If Obama, Pelosi or Rachel Maddow suggested "second amendment remedies" if the election didn't go their way and some crazy schmuck tried shooting John Beohner, you'd be hollering about it for the rest of your life, as would Fox News.

Jbird: Ok. I'll drop it too. I posted before I read your latest.

Will: I don't watch Fox News, I've got no idea what they'd do. I'm trying to watch the Eagles, but later if you'd like to discuss this on a political blog rather than a baseball blog, I'd be glad to.

This thread makes me nostalgic for another thread about third basemen's height.

At least that discussion was baseball related.

There are plenty of excellent political blogs out there you know.

I'm glad baseball has rules.

I think Swindle's got a real shot at making the Phillies...we NEED to give him a chance darnit.

~experiences flashback from beerleager 2008~

"I didn't politicize really IS a political situation."

Yes, but this is a baseball blog.

It showed poor taste to instigate that type of discussion here.

Go to the Huffington Post or DailyKos if you want to talk politics.

I don't mean to beat a dead horse. This looks like it's over, hopefully it is. But I do just find it ironic that Jared Loughner was a registered Democrat. I don't think this had to do with any Sarah Palin or Sharon Angle (Who the hell is she?). I think, based on the information released on him, he's insane, and clearly just wanted to put his name in the books, a la Lee Harvey Oswald.

On topic:

Escalona wasn't the worst Lefty in our system, I'm surprised he was released. I'm sure, however, the Organization knows what and who is best for the overall success, and released him with good reasons.

"I just find it ironic that Jared Loughner was a registered Democrat."

Where did you hear that?

I googled the phrase and saw links that said he was a registered Republican. And a registered Independent. And a registered Democrat. No sign of him being a Whig or a Mugwump yet.

Was he a DBacks fan?

Perhaps their recent struggles contributed to this tragedy? Maybe he was a huge Josh Byrnes fan and his firing set the guy off.

I don't think Escalona's release will really hurt the 40 man roster. He was lefty insurance. It would not surprise me if, later on in Spring Training, Ruben picked up a discount LOOGY veteran and we watched Zagurski disappear as well.

35 days to pitchers & catchers...

Anyone ever see Matthew Way pitch or know about his splits?

I know he is a soft toss lefty out of college who dominates his younger coutnerparts so far but isn't really a prospect - but curious if he's got any kind of funky windup or any other obscurity that might project into a possible LOOGY some day.

I heard they found a MLBTR app on the guys iPhone with the Justin Upton speculation articles archived. Luckily he didnt read beerleaguer's hamels/upton thread or he might have strapped himself with a bomb too.

Frankly, Way reminds me of Jamie Moyer.

andy: thanks. Ah ok, so I should wait until year 2030 before Way hits his groove.

Will S, I've been surfing the web today for opinion pieces about the Arizona coward, and came acroos these:

Just wondering what your thoughts might be?

"Escalona wasn't the worst Lefty in our system."

While that's no doubt true, the ones who are worse are not on the 40-man roster. We needed the 40-man roster spot to make room for Romero.

I'm sure, awh, Will S or anyone else so inclined here could post opinion pieces taking the opposite point of view. The WSJ Opinion page was not known for its moderate stance even before Murdoch took over.

awh: Please stop it.

Andy: so we should release Way now and try to re-sign him for his peak years when he turns 38?


1. Victorino
2. Polanco
3. Utley
4. Howard
5. Rollins
6. Ibanez
7. Brown/Francisco
8. Ruiz

1. Halladay
2. Lee
3. Oswalt
4. Hamels
5. Blanton


Any update on whether the Phils still have an offer dangling for Durbin? It sounds like they have finished any more positional player acquisitions though I still wouldn't mind seeing them take a flyer (say $1M) if A. Jones comes that cheap.

BedBeard, I'll stop after this comment:

EF, what opposite POV is that? That it's OK to attempt to use a cowardly and senseless tragedy for political gain?

R. Billingsly: The key to that lineup really is the performance of Jimmy Rollins.

No, awh, that it is possible that when political rhetoric crosses the line to asking for violence then we can't be shocked when such violence occurs, and pointing that out is not using it for political gain but a call for civility.

posted by awh:

"Yes, but this is a baseball blog. It showed poor taste to instigate that type of discussion here.

Go to the Huffington Post or DailyKos if you want to talk politics."

then later...

"Will S, I've been surfing the web today for opinion pieces about the Arizona coward, and came acroos these:

Just wondering what your thoughts might be?"


Dude, you really need to make up your mind. I dropped it, and as EastFallowfield already pointed out, it would take a nanosecond to find two dozen opinion articles that say the exact opposite.

Take your own advice and drop it. I did.

Jbird: I agree. I really think that Vic leading off and J-Roll hitting behind Howard makes the most sense. Vic is not a prototypical leadoff hitter, but neither is Rollins. It basically boiled down to who I wanted in the 5-hole: Rollins, Ibanez or Victorino? Rollins hitting 5th made more sense than the other two for different reasons.

What really struck me is typing out the starting rotation. It's like a dream. Even if it ends up:

1. Halladay
2. Lee
3. Oswalt
4. Hamels
5. Kendrick/Worley

I'm still liking it.

Placido Polanco's height: a problem waiting to happen? Discuss.

BAP: I agree, it is a ticking time-bomb, at his age, it's possible he's starting to shrink as well.

R.Billingsly: I like your batting order suggestion. I was thinking the same thing myself only yesterday.

Jbird is right. Rollins is the key.

In an odd way, Rollins is a win/win scenario.

Either he underperforms or is injury struck for another year and drives the cost down that it will take to retain him or he rebounds to 2007 form and can be an offensive difference-maker.

BAP: I blame Polanco's height (or lack thereof) for not beating SF last year. It was something that should have been addressed this off-season, but RAJ failed miserably. He spent all of his time trying to solidify the rotation. We'll see how that move works out.

It's Polanco's stubby legs that are the problem.

Matt Gelb tweet:

Phillies trade recently DFAed Sergio Escalona to Houston for 2B Albert Cartwright.

"Who's Cartwright?"

"i'm Cartwright"

R. Bill~ That's still one heck of a lineup despite Werth not being there. I was also thinking J-Roll behind Ryno.

As I posted last week, the rotation is the best on the planet. Heck, maybe in the galaxy. I love Kentucky Joe as the #5.

MG~ It appears that RAJ is done, at least for now. If KK goes top the 'pen, there's no roon for Durbin,'specially since KK will probably gaet around 2 mil. I would like ts A. Jones as well and more pop on the bench.

RBill, you haven't considered the fact that Charlie batted Ibanez 5th for most of the beginning of the season in 2009 - until he got hurt. Werth was in the 6 hole at that point. Don't dismiss the possibility of seeing this lineup:


Until Rollins demonstrates that he can no longer be a leadoff hitter, IMO charlie will leave him right there.

Actually, in looking at all of the 2009 lineups Charlie trotted out, Ibanez batted 3rd and 5th a total of 67 times.

Despite his reputation for rigidity (with ceratin spots it's somewhat true), Charlie plays with the lineup fairly often.

Frankse wins award for 'broadcaster of the year in Pennsylvania' from National Sportscasters and Sportswriters Association Hall of Fame.

Who was his competition, the Kutztown U. football announcer?

Hey, if height is so important, maybe Charlie's lineup should take that into account and bat them from tallest to shortest, or visa versa (listed height [not actual height] is used:

Brown 6'5"
Howard 6'4"
Ibanez 6'2"
Utley 6'1"
Polly 5'10"
Ruiz 5'10"
Vic 5'9"
Rollins 5'8"

Now, if Ben Fran is in the lineup then he bats behind Utley. Schneider would as well, and so would Valdez.

Yo, new thread

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