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Wednesday, December 15, 2010


Comments from Werth in a DC newspaper who exclaimed the Phillies "got their boy back" and stating that "One thing I was able to obtain was the length of the contract was very important. The one thing that was important was the length and the willingness of the owners to win. That's what drew me to Washington." He also says the Nats will "surprise a lot of people".

He's right, the Phillies have shown no determination to put a winner on the field. And of course the money had nothing to do with his decision. Other then a few straggling local cougars I won't miss this fraud.

Joe: Werth was one of my least favorite Phillies. I just didn't warm up to the guy's personality. Having said that, I would love for him to still be here. I understand why he's not and it doesn't upset me a bit. Even though I didn't like him personally I can't for one minute blame him for taking the deal in DC. It was his one shot at a gigantic pay day and he took it. I don't know how he could refuse. There was a lot of negativity when he took the deal and I just don't get it. You really took it hard. I just can't get that worked up about it.

Wow, people are really bashing Werth already? Maybe he actually does think a team that gives him 7 years and a lot of money and have invested a lot of money in some top stud draft picks the last few years and have invested in one of the best young players in baseball (Zimmerman) is a team that's showing a willingness to win.

I honestly don't get it, either.

Joe: I don't think Werth was saying the Phillies ownership isn't comitted to winning, he was just saying the nats ownership is. If the phillies didn't pickup Werth, there's a good chance he's selling insurance somewhere in 2011.

Yea, another team may have taken a Flyer on him, but playing for a world series contender/winner, as opposed to a Royals or Bucs definitely raised his profile dramatically. I don't think he really has an axe to grind against us.

I love Werth, though that quote is a little disingenuous. He took the money and in his situation, I don't begrudge him that in the least. I suppose it's a bit taboo to admit that straight cash was the determining factor. I wish him the best of luck and much success against the Braves, Mets, and Marlins.

Re: Werth bashing. I'd say it's a somewhat natural reaction to a player leaving your team. I don't begrudge him for taking the money/years and running, but it isn't hard to criticize hime for going to the Nats either. Makes more sense to bash the Nats for offering him a 7 year deal than it is to bash Werth for taking it.

And FWIW: The Nats "investing in some top stud draft picks" is b/c they finished in last place and they were lucky enough to be in position draft no brainers such as Strasburg/Harper.

Jayson Werth shattered his wrist, missed a full year of baseball, built himself back up and improved his on base skills took a starting job from a relatively high priced free agent, had an incredible 2008 World Series and was the only reliable, healthy offensive starter last year.

Philadelphia fans claim they like private blue collar, hard-workers and yet rip Werth up and down, it's ridiculously stupid.

Werth can have fun watching the Presidents race in front of half empty crowds as the Phils win championships.

From the last thread:

A few things:

1. Middleton has indeed become a greater among equals. I speculated about that in an earlier thread and it has turned out to be true. Good news for us. It almost certainly explains the new budgetary math.

2. If you watched closely, Herndon had a few outings early to mid-season where it looked like the infielders' spikes were encased in concrete. Dinks and dunks and dribblers just beyond someone's reach. Over and over. It was maddening. Only later on did he seem to be allowing more line drives and various well hit balls. And his velocity certainly dropped as the season progressed. If you remember ST, he was in the mid-90s with sink, and later he was lucky to be in the low nineties. There's a pitcher there. The question is will he mature physically and secondary stuff-wise.

3. This is Clout's world. We merely exist in it. But this insight has at least answered a question someone else asked. What does Clout do for a living? Professional solipsist.

Love how the Lee presser thread immediately turns to Werth talk.

Study in contrasts:

Werth shocks baseball world by signing with a perennial loser (although I love Zimmerman) for a ridiculously large contract claiming he didnt do it for the money.

Lee shocks baseball by taking less money to return to a proven winner, and claims he never wanted to leave in the first place.

If that's Werth-bashing, I plead guilty.

I agree.. .ridiculous to bash Werth. The guy played hard for the Phillies and was a huge part of bringing us a World Series title. When it was time for him to finally cash in, he was overwhelmed with an offer that was twice as good as anyone else was willing to put on the table.

And any of this is worthy of bashing? Ridiculous.

Cliff just shot down, strongly, any suggestion that his wife's experience with Yankee fans had anything to do with his decision.

So Amaro claims there were negotiations last year, they were far apart, and now they both got closer. Wow, who could have ever seen that coming?

Jayson Werth raped my mother and killed my father...kicked the dog too.

Cliff just shot down any suggestion that he reads Beerleaguer.

I just noticed the article that's why I brought it up, bad timing with the Lee conference, just wish one athelete would come out and say he signed for the money. I guess Franceur and Diaz also signed due to their team's committment to winning??

The first time Werth gets picked off of first next year with his head up his a$$ (hopefully by Lee) or poses after hitting a home run at CBP (to make the score 8-1 Phillies) most of you will be ripping him as an overrated fraud whose worth was artificially inflated by the players around him.

I don't think taxes ever crossed Lee's mind.

Feed just die for anyone else?

Head up his a$$ Werth was picked off 7 times in his 4 years in Philadelphia.

In the same time period baseball genius Derek Jeter was picked off 8 times, speedy Jimmy Rollins was picked off 14 times and the best player in baseball Albert Pujols was picked of 7 times.

Wow...Rollins, a guy that steals/attempts to steal a bunch of bases gets picked off more often? Shocking.

I don't see why i have to hate werth and denigrate his talent just because he decided to maximize his value and take his talents elsewhere. Its not like he was putting off starting his billion dollar multi-national corporation until his baseball career ended as if the money he makes is chump change. I love the game and I'm sure werth does too, but ya gotta eat. The philles made it pretty clear early on that they weren't going to pay him fair value. Yea, if we wanted to take 8 million a year for the rest of his career, I'm sure he'd retire here, but c'mon, somebody was gonna pay him the big bucks. Good for him.

Noah, how many times by the catcher at 2nd base for each of those guys?

I'm kidding. I totally agree with you. I'll just never forget that play, and it'll forever be the reason some people will bash Werth as having his head up his a$$.

When Jayson found out that Cliff signed with Philly he "wasn't the happiest person in the world."

I would give a weeks pay to be able to hear that conversation.

Yeah, Jimmy attempted 154 stolen bases and Werth attempted 68.

Both were picked off at close to 10% of their stolen base attempts.

RAJ said Cliff Lee wasn't traded because of money. Where are all the people to tell me he was lying?

The people who are saying good riddance to Werth are gonna be in for quite a treat when they get used to the Ben Francisco experience.

Right, and Derek Jeter's great play in the playoffs to get a non-sliding Giambi at home plate are why Gold Glove voters give Derek the nod at shortstop every year but it's still ignorance.

Bay- I believe Amaro, but I wish I knew why he was traded then, two theories:

1.) Something was said in negotiations that pissed of Amaro (obviously not past the point of no return, though)


2.) It was supposed to be a 3 team swap, but something got messed up at the last minute.

Anyway, Lee is pretty awesome. Not sure what else there is to say about him. He's one cool dude.

I did find his "Philly is an historic town" comment kind of amusing. So was it the Liberty Bell Museum or the Betsy Ross House which was the sealed the deal for him?

Who cares about Werth? He's gone and it's time to move on. I hate how some people dwell on the past around here. We just signed Cliff Friggin' Lee. Why bring up Werth??

Not knocking Werth, but I would be willing to be that no more than 1 or 2 of those Rollins pickoffs were for inattention.

Werth was prone to occasional Von Hayes Vaporlock (tm) on the bases.

I think the Phils will definitely miss Werth. He may not have been a major RBI guy, but he did a lot of good things on the field in his time in Philly. We can only hope that Ben Fran has gone to fundamentals school in the offseason. And maybe that Brown has taken a few courses there too.

Because Ruben basically just told us that the right fielder is going to come from inside the system.

Yikes, *"is why Gold Glove voters"

"The people who are saying good riddance to Werth are gonna be in for quite a treat when they get used to the Ben Francisco experience."

What happened to "In Rube We Trust?"

If we somehow land Magglio I'll miss Werth for about....what was his first name again??

I get so tired of hearing Philly being mentioned as a 'blue-collar' town. It is cliche that it pretty outdated at this point. It isn't 1975 anymore.

Betsy Ross House = Biggest historical waste of time in Philly.

option # 3: RAJ knew he couldn't convince ownership to sign 3 20+ million dollar contracts in one year(Halladay, Howard & Lee). But, he knew that he could convince them to pay one in 2011(Lee). I'm thinking RAJ knew he could get Lee to resign all along, just couldn't make it happen last year. And you can't trade howard, to hard to get equal value in return, so that means you trade Lee and gamble you get him back 12 months later(and pick up a couple of prospects along the way to boot).

And they can say it's not about $ but c'mon, everything is about money on some level.

"Because Ruben basically just told us that the right fielder is going to come from inside the system."

And if a deal was there to me made he wouldnt make it based on the events of the past 48 hours? He also said the Phils were happy with where they were as a team after the winter meetings. He had me believing him then too.

Bay Slugga: He also said that he couldn't have retained Werth and signed Lee. The contracts of Werth and Moyer came off the books which helped work Lee in without dramatically increasing the budget (well, at least not as much of a dramatic increase as it would have been in 2010).

If Lee were shopped around to anyone other than Gillick's former employer and if the trade didn't occur within 24 hours of Halladay coming on board, I'd say that it may have been motivated by something other than money.

He was traded because the cost of a Lee extension was either too prohibitive or unknown while the cost of a Halladay extension was known and could be factored in.

So yeah, Amaro is lying in this instance.

Joe Cowley: If you think we're signing Magglio, I've got a bridge you might be interested in.

Anyone wanna bet me that Dom Brown won't be on the Opening Day roster? I've got him penciled onto the 25-man here pretty easily.

The difference with this ownership and general manager is that they lie to us then do the opposite and make us happy.

In the past they just lied, with no happy ending.

Jack: If you think we were signing Cliff Lee, I have a second bridge and a skyscraper at a hometown discount.

I also would have liked to have been a fly on the wall during the Werth/Lee conversation.

Nice press conference, I thought RAJ and Cliff handled the questions well (not that there were any hardballs), and it's obvious both sides are happy he's here. I know I sure am. Just feels right.

So, a day after we sign the top free agent pitcher to a fair market value deal giving us one of the best rotations in the history of the game...we're basically beyotching about Jayson Werth and whether or not RAJ "lied" to the press/fanbase 12 months ago?

Yup, we're definitely on Beerleaguer.

If Brown isn't the opening day starter in right something terrible happened between now and then. Or we are facing a left handed pitcher.

Cliff Lee and his family loves Philadelphia. How awesome is it to have a guy like him and guys Like Halladay and Oswalt really wanting to be Phillies. The Phillies have paid their dues in excess and now the karma is all GOOD!

You could bet your arse Carlos Quentin is absolutely hanging to be a Phillie too. I wouldn't mind seeing that.

Don't be shocked if more players don't come out of the woodwork to take less outrageous deals to come here now, knowing what the next 2-3 years could hold for them with regard to reviving their careers or padding themselves nicely for a final contract. They may not be so easy to run and sign with a mediocre squad where they will be noticed about as often as an eclipse (see Werth, Francuer, Diaz, Overbay)

Thank God we have RAJ's personal assistant posting here. Will S thank you for clearing it up for me. I'm glad you have insight which contradicts every statement released on the matter.

As for Werth, his time as a productive starting outfielder is far too small to justify the money he was able to command on the free agent market.

In the winter of 2010, he was a poor investment for the Phillies. The difference in performance between he and Francisco is not worth the difference in the amount that they're paid, and it certainly isn't worth handcuffing the team financially to where adding Lee wouldn't have been possible.

Werth's performance from this point forward is about as relevant as JD Drew. As a fan, it just doesn't matter all that much to me. He may continue the trajectory of the past 2.5 seasons and become one of the best right handed bats in the game, or he may regress in a larger ballpark with no protection in the lineup and become one of the most overpaid outfielders in the game. Neither would surprise me. At any rate, I just don't care about Werth anymore.

"I'm glad you have insight which contradicts every statement released on the matter."

Yeah. Why use logic when you can simply believe every word that's said to you as gospel truth. After all, nobody EVER lies about money at a press conference.

I don't disagree that GMs lie, I just don't believe this is one of those cases. I've touched on it before and don't want to spoil the current lovefest that is taking place...

Wait, this is BLer.

Awesome foursome!!!

WS makes a good point, re-signing the incredibly overrated Werth based on 2008 nostalgia and obvious man-love, would have prevented the glorious news of Lee's return. So how would most of you answer the question: "Who would you rather have now, Lee or Werth?"

*cricket, cricket*

It looks like the Phillies payroll is just north of $172 million (that is hard to believe) for 24 Players. Of course this assumes:

1.) $414k for league minimum
2.) BennyFran and KK get about $2.0 mil in arb (overestimated, I feel)

I used COTS baseball contracts for the rest of the info

Joe, no one's saying they'd rather have Werth than Lee. What some of us are saying is that you're outrageously misrepresenting Werth's contributions.

Given all my flame-throwing toward Werth, I will admit he was one of the only players to show up down the stretch and post-season last year (albeit for the purpose moreso of a new contract), and I also admit that to date his bat has not been replaced. However, you may commence your salvos in my direction.

BaySlugga: It doesn't matter if Amaro was lying or not. Lee is a Phillie. However, for the sake of argument, please look at the situation logically and decide whether Amaro is likely to have told the truth or not.

On one side, we have...

- The acquisition of Halladay brought the 2010 payroll to a level that was reported to be their budget.

- The fact that Lee was traded the very same day that Halladay was acquired.

- The fact that Lee was not shopped to any other club, but instead traded to the one team that Gillick has the most familiarity with at the time.

- The fact that we didn't get the Mariner's top prospects for a full year of one of the most dominant pitchers in the game at a manageable salary.

- The reports that an extension was discussed with Lee prior to the acquisition of Halladay (reports that Lee and his agent confirmed, suggesting that they had no intention of trading Lee during a pre-Halladay payroll).

On the other side, we have Amaro's word that trading Lee wasn't motivated by money.

Seriously, this is a no-brainer.

But enough of this nonsense. Lee is a Phillie. Werth is a National. Amaro is the GM and life is good.

Don't get the Werth hate at all. Joe, you're not mistaking him for Adam Eaton are you?

We're going to need Cliff Lee & his 3 counterparts to be every bit the aces they're supposed to be because, without Werth, this offense is going to stink something fierce.

I think the revenue sharing tax is going to be at $178 mil I think they will be good in terms of that.

NEPP, it's my Beerleaguer petpeeve right now, that everyone get's pissed off at RAJ for not telling them the whole truth, like they are some minority owner and demand accountability or something. I posted this in another thread (it was too long, no one read it):


(2) I hope that the Cliff Lee signing puts to rest some of the continual whining about the front office not telling us what is going on behind the scenes at all times. There are very specific reasons that Amaro doesn't answer certain questions directly, and my guess is that none of them have to do with being disrespectful or disdainful of curious fans. (And yes, even telling us that Jimmy's calf is really f'ed up, way worse than we originally told you all before, would divulge too much competitive information into the marketplace.) The only thing that is helped by Rube telling us the exact status of injuries, or who he is talking to during winter meetings, is our own dissatisfaction or impatience.

donc: Like I said, it's not hate, I'm a realist not an idealist who sees the Phillies world through red-tinted glasses. The fact is you can't get too high nor too low on Werth. Phillies fans have always had a penchant of elevating players throughout the years to folk-hero status that simply don't warrant the praise.

Given all that, Lee is the real deal and we have the best team in baseball bar none.

I don't see any hatred of Werth.

I don't hate BMW cars, but if buying one tied me up financially to where I couldn't afford many of the other things that make life pleasurable, it isn't worth the money.

Ben Francisco is our Chevy Caviler - dependable, average and cost effective. It serves its purpose, but more importantly, it allows us to take a five year luxury vacation (Lee).

(how's that for a goofy analogy)

On Dom Brown, I take Rube's word on it: He has to win the RF job in ST. It won't be handed to him. And if he doesn't win it, he'll be tuning himself up at LV.

"everyone get's pissed off at RAJ for not telling them the whole truth"

Just to clarify, I'm not angry at all that Amaro lied. I'd be pissed off if he didn't. The last thing you want is your GM going on tv and telling players, their agents and rival GMs that we're desperate for cash.

I was upset at the impulsiveness of the deal, not the public justification of it. For all I care, he could have said that magical unicorns made him do it.

Will: So, the short version is:

Luxury Vacaction + Chevy Cavalier > BMW

to clarify again, I'm referring to the Lee to Seattle trade when I talk about the impulsiveness of the deal.

"without Werth, this offense is going to stink something fierce."

Again, will it be that tough to find a right handed bat at some point to give you 25-80, which was basically his average? Geoff Jenkins averaged those numbers his whole career.

The offense will "stink something fierce" if it continues to flail away at bad pitches, watch good pitches go by, swing for the fences in every situation, and continue to be unable to bunt the runner. Werth is irrelevant.

Will: In re: your post to Slugga: Excellent analysis.

To add to what Joe said, this team has clearly shifted its focus from offense (2006-2009) to pitching and defense (2010-2011). This move is consistent with what Amaro has done since taking over.

The offense may not be great, but I think it'll be more than adequate.

Joe: I tend to agree that Werth was a bit over rated around here. But only a bit. Like I say, given the choice I'd rather have him than not. But he's not dead to me for taking the big paycheck. I don't blame him. And as an important part of the team through these glorious years I appreciate his contribution.

Loved Cliff's patience. Just how many different ways can you answer the same question? Yes I love the fans. They're the best. Blah Blah Blah. We know he loves us, now let him go home and enjoy a nice quiet holiday.

Clout: So take the bet. I think Brown will be on the roster. What do you think?

Don't cop out by saying he'll either earn it or he won't. Make a prediction on what happens.

WS: Such a shift is appropriate given the post-juicing nature of the game now, which emphasizes small ball and pitching over the long ball. It's the reason why a team like the Giants with that offense won the World Series and why teams like Colorado will not win anytime soon.

What about how we added more payroll mid season by trading for Roy Oswalt? What about reports that one of owners has Steinbrenner like mentality?

Your analysis was quite good - I just disagree with your conclusion.

Joe Cowley: You know nothing about baseball if you think the loss of Werth is "irrelevant" to how the offense will perform this year compared to last year.

At least I know now to ignore all of your posts.

Will, understood, and didn't intend to oversimplify...from another part of that long post that no one read:

It gets brought up very little here, but a lot of this has to help explain why Rube got such a lousy return in the C____ L__ trade (we should still use this formulation when discussing the "lost year" in my opinion). Rube could have waited to maximize return value, or he could have traded him to the Mets, but both would have been a bit of a nightmare from a PR perspective. I'm definitely not saying it was the right call, just saying that it contributed to the value we received in return. Which, objectively speaking, was less than what Seattle got.

Joe Cowley: I'll indulge you one more time. The Giants won the WS precisely by hitting the long ball. That's exactly the offense they used to beat us, and they did it against the Rangers too.

Please look up how many HRs they hit before you post such ludicrously wrong things.

i really liked jayson werth. sure, he was frustrating esp. this year with RISP but he did hit .351 in the world series (.444 in '08).

i'll be giving him a round of applause when he's back in philly the first time. he was such an essential part to teh club over the last 4 years.

Let's put aside the question of whether or not Werth was overrated during his time in Philly and look at him from a cost-benefit analysis.

Considering that a corner outfielder may be the easiest position to fill, the presence of a promising OF prospect and the amount it would have taken to top the National's offer, and assuming he continues to produce similar numbers, would retaining Jayson Werth have been a smarter decision than letting him go and using that money elsewhere (Lee)?

How many runs do you have to score when you're trotting out Halladay, Lee, Oswalt and Hamels 4 out of 5 nights? Francisco isn't likely to impress anyone or to produce comparable offensive numbers to Lee, but I really can't get too worked up about that considering the club as a whole.

Every team has its strengths and weaknesses. I'd sooner deal with whatever Francisco can contribute instead of having Blanton/Kendrick take the mound 40% of the time.

Seriously, who thinks that a team with Pat Burrell, Aubrey Huff, Juan Uribe, Pablo Sandoval, Aaron Rowand, Edgar Renteria and Cody Ross played small ball?

That's the fattest, slowest team out there.

They won with power pitching and power hitting. The same formula that usually wins.

I guess my point is, why get mad at it, and why get mad at Rube? I think you're exactly correct about the return being poor due to the quick turn around time (the 3 way deal that fell apart theory is interesting, but ultimately irrelevant, as Rube could have just turned around and structured another deal when he was better prepared).

And I'm not reacting to your statements necessarily. It brought to my mind all the comments that Rube was sitting on his hands during the winter meetings, and all the complaining last year that he or the Phils weren't being honest about JRoll's injury. Apologies for lumping you in with that crowd if you don't belong there.

The correct answer to who to sign longterm between Werth and Lee is easy--Lee. Lee is the better player, and Dom Brown is our best prospect and plays RF. If we had a guy like Strasburg but not Brown, the calculus might be different.

As it is now, this was an easy decision.

Jack: My statement was more about the overall make-up of that team, which was hardly the 1989 Oakland A's. They got lucky and popped some timely dingers in the series, but they were a squad that got there based on pitching and situational hitting given that their entire starting lineup turned over during the season.

And I don't know which will be harder to bear, the loss of Werth or you not reading my posts.

Joe: Did you happen to notice the 102 runs scored that Werth has averaged over the last 2 seasons while batting in front of such sluggers as Pedro Feliz, Wilson Valdez, Carlos Ruiz (2009 version), Shane Victorino (2010 version), and Raul Ibanez (2010 version)? And did you happen to notice that our No. 6 hitter drove in 83 runs last year -- a very high total for a 6th hitter -- despite slugging just .444? Do you think maybe that had something to do with the fact that the guy in front of him had a .388 OBP and led the league in doubles?

Runs scored count as run prduction too.

Jack: Agreed completely. If Brown were traded and Drabek began his rookie season in 2011, the scenario is different.

We can debate the what-if's endlessly, but I think we're all pretty happy with the team that's going into 2011 and 2012.

Next winter doesn't project to have a bonanza of free agent pitching to choose from. Amaro got while the gettin' was good.

I think Brown is in the perfect position. He doesn't have to light the world on fire. The pressure should be lessened somewhat by playing for a team with great pitching. But I agree with Clout. Rube was probably not fooling when he said he's got to win the job. That's what I meant about something having gone wrong if he's not our rightfielder coming out of ST. He will have to produce in Clearwater. And that's as it should be. He can platoon with BenchFran. That should suffice, but a platoon of Francisco/Gload would really suck IMO. We'd get real sick of seeing Gload in rightfield.

Joe Cowley: Actually, the Giants had virtually the same amount of HRs during the regular season as the Phillies (166 to 162) despite playing in a much worse park for hitting HRs. The Phils hit for a higher BA and had a much higher BA with RISP ("situational hitting"), and the Phils also had way more SBs and a higher SB percentage ("smallball").

So I think it's fair to say that they were a team that got there based on pitching and power hitting, while the Phils got there on pitching and situational hitting. You might just wanna admit you're wrong here and move on.

And again, the loss of Werth given this rotation will not be felt as badly as everyone fears.

Look up the '88 Dodgers as an example. They steamrolled the perennial slugging Athletics in the series with the most dismal offense in the league, but rode the arms of Hersheiser and an elder John Tudor to the title.

We have FOUR starters that are superior to anyone in that rotation (maybe Orel and Oswalt are a push) and an offense that is ten times the LA squad was that season.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I have to believe that a healthy 2011 Phillies without Werth will be comparable to an injury plagued 2010 Phillies with Werth.

I may be absolutely wrong and naive to hope that we have less injuries to cope with next season.

Not underestimating Jayson's talents or what his absence means to this team - just trying to look at the situation holistically.

Jack: I might, but I won't.

I hardly consider that SF squad as a team of bashers. My point was that the league is shifting toward less emphasis on the long ball and moreso on pitching and situational hitting, and Amaro has recognized this which is why he lets a guy like Werth walk and has loaded up on arms.

Jack trying to deride someone into just admitting they were wrong and moving on is one of the funniest things I've ever seen on here.

Deride away

Joe Cowley: You can consider them whatever you want, but everyone here knows you're wrong.

Anyway, it's a good thing Amaro is replacing Werth with such plus-situational hitters like Ben Francisco, right? And Dom Brown was known for having very little power in the minors, but just oodles of situational hitting. So obviously, we've gotten a lot better offensively by letting Werth go. Good call.

And if situational hitting is so much better than the "longball", then shouldn't you be criticizing the Howard contract? Wouldn't that money have been better spent on another pitcher, and then we could've brought Lyle Overbay or someone in to play 1st and hit "smallball" or something.

Get out of here, please.

TTI: You agree with Joe Cowley, here? That we should get rid of power hitters and

I might not love the Ryan Howard contract, but at least I recognize that the value he does have comes from power. If he gets back to hitting for .575+ SLG and 50 HRs, I'll have no complaints at all about it. None.

Lot of anger and infighting for such a happy day.

I never said the offense got better offensively by losing Werth. I said it does't need to be at the level it was given this rotation. Did you glance over the '88 Dodgers reference or were you salivating as you were continously hitting refresh button to see the next stupid useless and incorrect comment I would make?

And why would I criticize the Howard contract? He gives you 145-150 RBI per years, I dont consider him a one-dimensional home run hitter. He is the most prolific RBI man in the game the past 5 years and became more of a situational hitter this past season. Werth couldnt even drive in 100 even when he slugged over 35 homers.

JBird: Yeah, I apologize. I let this dummy get to me.

No need for that on such a good day.

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