Part of

« Wednesday: Halladay still reigns as Phillies' ace | Main | Watch Cliff Lee's press conference live at 3 p.m. »

Wednesday, December 15, 2010


Well, give that man a....oh, wait.

Lee passed his physical and is officially a Phillie for the next five years

Best Postscript Ever

Middleton sounds like my kind of Phillies owner.

I want Soria!

Great update.

Middleton is a fairly young billionaire. He's about the age the Buck bros. were when they first bought the team. Alexander "Whip" Buck (that's a nice aristocratic name) is the youngest brother.

I wonder what Oswalt thinks of the Lee deal?

It almost certainly means he won't be offered a contract extension - even if he wants one.

Werth presser on MLB Network right now.

G.R.A.B. - I'm sure KC wouldn't balk at Brown for Soria. Seriosuly, they have a ton of talent coming to the big leagues in the next 2 years. Soria is young and has a reasonable salary. If he leaves after his contract, they get 2 draft picks. What's their motivation to trade him without getting a significant prospect back?

Is Lee's presser going on now? Stuck at work, can anyone summarize or transscribe (or link)?

This is major news.

clout, here's your original post:

"BTW, I hope this puts to rest the lie repeated often on this blog that Lee was traded because he rejected an offer from Amaro, who then concluded he was too expensive. Lee said there never was an offer."

If the intent of your original post was to say there were no formal negotiations, then why didn't you say that? I would think that's a better way to get a point across.

Instead you puff your chest, assure the board that the "often repeated" lies can be put to rest, and then just plain make up a statement like "Lee said there never was an offer."

Let me speak for myself when I say your self-aggrandizement is more than tiresome.

"You may want to check KK's numbers vs. RH hitters. Also, I'm curious. What is this great skill that Herndon has?"

A .254 BAA qualifies as a "great skill" at getting right-handers out, whereas a 2.10 GO/FO ratio does NOT qualify as a great skill at inducing ground balls? Interesting.

Jbird - I know...I'm just saying...Soria would be sweet

Presser? The most annoying new slang term of the year. You know it's dumb when Mike Golic uses it over and over again.

I think it should enshrined in the word hall of fame when douchebags on blogs don't like it.

Herndon always seemed to me to be unlucky. Despite the Phillies reputed defensive prowess, a lot of those ground balls seemed to make their way to the outfield. but that's just a subjective analysis.

the bosox screwed us....(cue twilight zone theme)

mrs. lee tells cliff, "aint no way i'm going to NY after what those a-holes did to me. and if you think i'm spending another summer in texas playing hostess to your free-ticket scrounging twice-removed relatives from arkansas, you got another thing coming!"

cliff runs to his office and breaks open the "in case of emergency" cellphone that RAJ gave him last year. "RAJ, you gotta help me!" RAJ responds with 5 years/$115 mill. cliff says, "$120 so the MLBPA will stay off my back and it's a deal. RAJ says he'll call back the next day.

RAJ calls theo in boston and says, "look, i can get involved in this cliff lee thing but you have to take joe blanton off my hands for 2 minor leaguers, or would you rather face cliff 5 times a year?" theo says he'll put a list together.

RAJ and monty get the green(light) from the owners. RAJ calls the Lee household and Mrs. answers. RAJ tells her, "what's another 5 mill between friends, tell cliff the deal is done." Mrs. Lee calls Cashman and tells him, "screw all of yaw arrogant sob's!" then she calls nolan ryan and tells him, "good luck filling that sauna you call a stadium without me and cliff bringing an extra 60 people to every game, i'm going to be sitting between heidi and stephanie in 2011."

"cliff, darling, pack your sh%t, i got a hankering for a 20 oz. ribeye, i want it tuesday, and i want it in philly."

word leaks on where theo sees it and he immediately tells RAJ that he changed his mind. RAJ slams the phone down and reaches for the white phone with the navy pinstripes. the one with the "use in case of salary dump or revenge" security tape pastered all over it. "cashman? amaro. i'm going to say 6 names and then i'm going to hang up. don't say anything. don't call me back, i'll call you. just think about it. howard, utley, blanton, texiera, cano and chamberlain." click.

RAJ then spins around in his chair and stares into the mirror behind his desk. "i wont forget this theo, and someday...REVENGE WILL BE MINE! BWAHAHAHA!"

How long has this guy been an owner? Where was he pre-2005?

Paul, you lost me.

JBird/G.R.A.B... has Brown for Soria been rumored somewhere? I'd agree KC would have to brush that aside.

Awesome story!

Seems like Middleton is a Phan who just happens to have a loose billion or two.

Any of us would do as he has done if we were in that position financially.

So, in a way, one of the best things to happen to the Phils was losing the NLCS last season?

quincy: You're right. I should have used the more precise word negotiations or contract rather than offer. Does that make you feel better? That's a good boy.

Nothing like signing Cliff Lee to rehash the trade of Cliff Lee. Thanks guys.

Middleton's dad bought the initial share and John S. inherited it. I think the father bought it in the early 90s (Betz and Bucks are the only originals of the group remaining). Having trouble locating where I read that at the moment.

As far as the tax implications discussed on the last thread, doesn't it matter where Lee calls "home," i.e. his permanent residence, regardless of where he earns his income? Isn't that why so many athletes make their permanent residences in FLA (where there is also no state income tax)?

I previously worked for a large corporation in NJ. They wrote my checks, even though I lived in Arkansas. I had to pay Arkansas state income taxes.

BAP: Hey, I can cherry pick stats too.

KK vs. RH: .700 OPS (career)

Herndon vs. RH: .771

So you think throwing groundballs trumps OPS allowed?


No need to go perverted on me, clout. Your internet bullying is weird enough.

Clout: I don't think bap claimed Herndon was better than KK at getting righties out.

He claimed Herndon had a specific skill (getting GBs) just like KK has a specific skill (getting crushed by lefties, I mean, getting righties out at a good clip).

quincy: Your obsession with me is what's perverted.

Good for Middleton and good for the Phillies. Give him 51% and let him take over fully...we'd be like this every year.

Trading Lee away may be the best thing that happened to the Phillies. I don't believe it cost us a World Series (perhaps, but I don't think it did) and it's a big reason why Lee came back this off-season giving us a dream rotation.

Jack: He claimed that Herndon had a specific skill that could be useful in the pen but that KK had no such skill. Go back and read his post.

Herndon has two specific "skills"...

1. Being difficult to look up in, thanks to his first name not actually being David, B-R always gave a big list of Herndons...very annoying.

2. Allowing hits. He's very good at giving up plenty of hits to opposing hitters.

Clout: Ah, I see his original post from the last thread. So what it actually seems like is just a basic disagreement between the two of you.

He thinks a 57% GB rate is more impressive, while you think a .700 OPS against RHs is more impressive.

Either way, your comparison of their skills against righties are irrelevant, because bap was never comparing those things against each other. He was comparing Herndon's GB rate to KK's ability to get righties out.

Ah, the "I'm rubber, you're glue" comeback.

Jack: Would you agree then that a pitcher's GB rate trumps the OPS he allows?

I'd actually be surprised if Herndon is on the 25 man to start off the year. I dont feel he ever really showed anything last year to justify guaranteeing him a spot on a championship level team. Let him play in Lehigh and refine his secondary offerings. By refine I mean actually develop a 2nd pitch.

WP - The tax regime for MLB players is pretty complicated I think. They have to pay taxes based on where games are played, and I fairly certain each state/city has different rules. Not sure how all this plays out in the previous discussion.

If I'm not mistaken, clout has a higher MOPAR (misrepresenting other people's arguments ratio) during off-season than he does during the regular season.

And his regular season MOPAR already has him as a lock in the Blogger Hall of Fame.

Yeah, "MLB Player" is not a job where you'd ever do your own taxes.

I've been busy with finals so forgive me if this has already been discussed, but is there any credibility to reports in the NY Daily News that they're in talks with Pedro to be our fifth starter?

I'm guessing that this would guarantee that Blanton is heading out and Kendrick/Worley either go to the pen or the Pigs.

I'm torn on this. Pedro is one of my favorite players of all time and rounding out this rotation with a future hall of famer is a hell of a story, but unless it's a two year deal at a reasonable cost, I'd just as soon they kept Blanton.

NEPP: Herndon had a .350+ BABIP which inflated his ERA. A FIP of 3.56 is more than solid.

Will S: If I'm Pedro I would really want to pitch for the Phillies (that is if Pedro plans to pitch at all) considering the rotation. Do the Phillies really want to go down that road again? I'd doubt it.

Sometimes BABIP isn't just bad luck...sometimes its because a guy is just getting hit hard. Herndon (and I watched probably 155 Phillies games last year) didnt really show anything that DEMANDS he be on the 25 man roster this year to start. It'd probably be better for him and the Phillies if he went to Lehigh and worked on his pitches. Otherwise, with our rotation, he's gonna be lucky to get 1 appearance a week in garbage time innings.

Bay Slugga,

What was wrong with that road the last time they traveled it?

I seem to remember Pedro pitching admirably well in 2009, and along with J.A. Happ, really helping us win down the stretch. He also threw an AMAZING game against the Dodgers in game 2 of the NLCS, and pitched well on the road in game 2 of the WS, giving us a very good chance to win that game. If we get THAT Pedro to be our 5th starter, color me giddy, not only for the benefit it will have for the team, but to have 2 future HOF'ers on the staff (maybe 3,4 or 5), and to have 3 former Cy Young winners.

That would be cool as hell. Plus, we'd still have KK and Worley for spot starts and for eventual injury starts.

Bay: How many high-groundball pitchers have a low BABIP?

NEPP: Herndon allowed 14.4 baserunners per 9. That is usually going to get you into trouble. He will either have to reduce his BB/9 or find a way to become less hittable.

I agree that he won't break camp with the big league team.

****Herndon allowed 14.4 baserunners per 9. That is usually going to get you into trouble. He will either have to reduce his BB/9 or find a way to become less hittable.****

I completely agree on Herndon.

"I'm torn on this. Pedro is one of my favorite players of all time and rounding out this rotation with a future hall of famer is a hell of a story, but unless it's a two year deal at a reasonable cost, I'd just as soon they kept Blanton."

Two years?! It's likely be 1 1/2 years too many.

With no disrespect to his prior work, why would Pedro want to pitch in a rotation where he was the worst by a far measure?

I can't see any way Herndon comes north with the big club. They did what they wanted to do last year. They got him through the year without any damage to our results. Now see if you can make a pitcher out of him.

He's certainly not the Pedro of old, but I'm inclined to believe that he'd pitch at least as well as Blanton, Kendrick or Worley. I'm not sure if he'd be a greater injury risk.

Even if he were kept on a strict pitch count, it'd give our pen an opportunity to get in some innings since they're probably not going to see much action in most of Halladay and Lee's starts. Under the circumstances, they could give Kendrick or Contreras the occasional start if Pedro needed an extra day of rest.

Pedro or no Pedro, I like the idea of Kendrick as the long man in the pen instead of our fifth starter.

A few things:

1. Middleton has indeed become a greater among equals. I speculated about that in an earlier thread and it has turned out to be true. Good news for us. It almost certainly explains the new budgetary math.

2. If you watched closely, Herndon had a few outings early to mid-season where it looked like the infielders' spikes were encased in concrete. Dinks and dunks and dribblers just beyond someone's reach. Over and over. It was maddening. Only later on did he seem to be allowing more line drives and various well hit balls. And his velocity certainly dropped as the season progressed. If you remember ST, he was in the mid-90s with sink, and later he was lucky to be in the low nineties. There's a pitcher there. The question is will he mature physically and secondary stuff-wise.

3. This is Clout's world. We merely exist in it. But this insight has at least answered a question someone else asked. What does Clout do for a living? Professional solipsist. use speculating on clout.

You'd have better luck trying to divine the 2015 Ws winner.

clout: My original point was that relievers are used situationally. I can imagine more situations where you'd want a ground ball specialist than where you'd want a right-handed specialist who isn't particularly great at his specialty.

I'd also add (as has already been mentioned) that Herndon had major BABIP issues, well beyond what you'd expect of even a groundball specialist. I'd further add that, even with all the hits he allowed, he still somehow ended up with a considerably better ERA than KK. ERA is not the greatest stat for relievers, but it's not totally meaningless. What it tells us is that, at least for his own baserunners, Herndon did a much better job than KK at getting himself out of jams. That's exactly what you'd expect from an extreme ground ball pitcher.

It's not like I'm wild about Herndon. But, as a reliever, I think he brings more to the table, and has considerably more upside, than KK.

Whenever Eskin gets inside information from the Phillies I would bet my house that that person will always be Dallas Green.

The Phils coaches will evaluate Brown's performance in ST. It will not be all about stats. It will be all about how well he plays in the eyes of the coaches that are paid to evaluate such skills.

Frankly, I'll be surprised considering the SP staff that Brown will make the team out of ST this year. I think the FO will be cautious about keeping him on the team. They have other more proven options although it's hard to ignore Brown's stats from the last couple of minor league years. He would have to really play well to make it. He probably needs more time in AAA because of his defense than his hitting.

The comments to this entry are closed.

EST. 2005

Top Stories


Rotoworld News

Follow on Twitter

Follow on Facebook

Contact Weitzel