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Wednesday, November 17, 2010


I thought Scott Mathieson was the the one.

Scott Mathieson, Dan Meyer AND Matthew Rizzotti=Justin Upton?


Dan Meyer...meh, may as well throw a bunch of crap at the wall and see what sticks.

As for Upton, Heyman is reporting there will be no trade, and it's just a lot of talk. As far as a lot of people in baseball are concerned, he about as available as a Pujols or Halladay.

From last thread:

clout - I use "reasonable," in regards to Ben Francisco, to mean "way better than Jeff Francoeur, probably a little less talented platoon-wise than Matt Diaz, yet under team control and therefore able to free up our front office for other, bigger, arguably more important matters."

Francisco >>> Francouer.

Not even close.

So there's all these guys out there who are serious RPs, some of them lefties. And we're signing Meyer? I seriously hope that Ruben has not really started shopping yet.


There is no such thing as a bad minor league deal...these are filler signings.

Don't know if the Phillies consider Francisco an option as either a platoon in right or an every day player, but they certainly should. If they simply give him an everyday or semi-everyday shot, he is quite likely to be at least as good as 90 percent of the options available otherwise. And he's already on the roster.

Next! Time to sign a real lefty reliever and maybe bid on that shortstop from Japan.

Scott Downs would be great except for the pricetag and pick we'd be losing.

I agree on the SS...though we all know it wont happen as it would "insult" Jimmy and Rube is 99% gonna extend Jimmy anyway rather than look for youth. That SS could be a solid player...not a star but pretty solid.

Just an observation, but Derek Jeter has balls of steel. Were I a fading, older player, coming off a less than stellar season, I don't think I'd be asking for four or more years and Jayson Werth type money.

But that's just me. I'm not dating Minka Kelley on and off.

I'd love to see the Yanks offer him arb, then let him go to the next highest bidder. There is such a thing as loyalty, but it works both ways. And he's doing a Jamie Moyer "bend over" of Cashman. I hope he won't rall for it.

4 years for Jeter is ridiculous. I wonder what Jimmy will demand...

If the Yankees dont sign him, he'd be lucky to get 2 years, $12 million.

He's an aging below average defensively (that GG is a freaking joke) aging SS who looks like his best years are behind him.

Jeter needs the Yankees more than they need him. But it would not go over well in Yankee-Dom to let Jeter walk. And it's not like they're hurting for money...

Andy: You sound DPatrone.

Chris in Vt: The odds of Upton staying put are probably far greater than being dealt, but everyone is reporting the DBacks are listening to offers. Listening and trading are two far different things, but you seem to be denying that there's any credence to the reports of the Dbacks being open to moving Upton, despite much evidence to the contrary. Why is that? You're starting to sound like MvptommyD with his "ok kiddies, Halladay isn'going anywhere!!" talk from a couple of years ago.

Meyer was once the 42nd ranked prospect in all of baseball. I guess that means he's a virtual can't-miss.

Ryno needs players. Gotta take what you can get. Might get lucky.

Jason Knapp back from his injury in 2010: 47 K in 28.1 IP.

Sure its low A and Rookie ball but Wow.

That's a ton of swinging and misses.

When did Ben Francisco become a star? Did I miss something? Oh, wait. This is Beerleaguer.

Never mind.

When did making basic points about Francisco being better than Francoeur and the rest of his ilk, slightly worse than Diaz, and under team control become claiming that Francisco is a star? Oh wait, this is clout.

Never mind.

What's the annual turnover at the average Triple A club? 60%? I'd guess even higher.

Meyer is exactly the kind of guy who gets picked up every year to stock your Trip A team.

Jeter and the Yankees are locked in what's essentially a bilateral monopoly negotiation. Each of them can only negotiate with the other (theoretically Jeter could negotiate with other teams, but in reality this will not happen because he knows the Yankees will offer him the most no matter what).

These sorts of negotiations almost always have very wide variance in proposed terms, and result in protracted negotiations with high transaction costs.

Sorry for the econ tangent. Point is, this will likely go on for a while.

Clout: Yeah, I don't know why people are reacting strongly either way to Meyer. He's a guy you put on the AAA roster and if someone gets hurt, maybe he gives you something. If not, no biggie. Sort of like Tyler Walker last year or something.

Until we see otherwise, we have to take Rube at his word: Right now he's looking for bench and bullpen help, particularly LH BP help.

I still think they'll bring in a vet RH OF as insurance for Brown.

cjp: Do you think Francisco is an acceptable replacement for Werth?

Jack: Exactly right. In fact, I believe Tyler Walker is currently a FA. We could sign him again to serve the same role.

Clout - Is the air in mom's basement getting thin?

I dare you to find anyone who said Francisco is going to be a star.

What was said is that he's already on the team and would be adequate if not better than nearly all of the mediocrities/senior citizens being bandied about. Look at what he did playing full time in Cleveland. I would assume he could hit about .250 against both righties and lefties with some pop and a little speed, and adequate defense.

We have certainly seen a flawed player in his time in Philly. And I myself have said a few times that he is the classic player with tools who is less than the sum of his parts.

But you, Clout, continue to be a raging turd. A rare talent. But one you have perfected. I only wish Francisco felt the need to work on his game in the off season the way that you do.

Walker was a little more of a proven major league commodity than Meyer is. Meyer is more like this year's Oscar Villarreal.

aksmith: My goodness, did you forget to take your Prozac today?

The fact that you think Francisco is a fine replacement for Werth makes me more confident than ever that the front office won't do it.

clout: yes, if going with him (in a platoon of some sort) allows them to make another move of a biggish sort. If it's just plugging BenFran in for Werth and that's it, I understand your pessimism about that.

That said, even if the Phils went with BenFran and didn't also make a big move this offseason, I'm fine with that, so long as that sets them up to make a move to strengthen the roster as the 2011 season goes along, if necessary. Maybe they'll be able to get a better player via trade once the season's underway than in the offseason. I don't know, but I don't think that a BenFran/Domonator platoon is necessarily the end of the world, even though it is extremely unlikely they will equal Werth's production.

cjp: What does giving the RF job to Ben Francisco have to do with making a big move or not mid-season?

The issue isn't whether Francisco is a good replacement for Werth. Obviously he won't replace Werth's production.

The issue is whether he's a better option than the other available replacements are concerned. He's certainly far better than Jeff Francoeur.

clout: With all due respect to Werth and his post-2007 career, I didn't think he was an acceptable replacement for Geoff Jenkins once upon a time.

Jack: Is there anyone who's been mentioned here who's worse than Francoeur? I can name 5 replacements better than Francisco.

clout: payroll flexibility, primarily

cjp: I recall last offseason after they signed Halladay everyone said that was it, the budget was closed they couldn't make a big move mid-season.

Clout: Guys who are readily available at a decent cost in terms of money/prospects? Name them.

I don't necessarily disagree. I just haven't seen the Phils linked to any of them. Francisco is certainly better than Francoeur or Dye though.

Clout - There you go again. Who said he was a "fine" replacement for Werth. He is an "adequate" replacement if using him allows you to spend money on relievers, maybe an upgrade as a fifth starter (unlikely) or a better hitting and running utility guy than Valdez.

Using Francisco would be a budgetary move. Until Raul's contract is gone, using Ben Fran is a viable option to keep costs down and allow the pitching to overcome the drop in production from right field.

Yep, I've taken a double dose of Prozac, and you're still a turd.

Let me be a bit more clear: BenFran is under team control and is relatively cheap, and it's not crazy to think that he, or he and someone else in a platoon (my preference), can play well enough to not prevent the Phils from winning the division and going deep in the playoffs. So, I don't think it's a terrible idea to go with him now and see how it works out. Since there were a bunch of IF injuries last year, maybe that flares up again and now the Phils need to deal some prospects and take on some payroll to patch that. Or maybe Oswalt's back blows out and they need to deal for another solid SP. Maybe a better OF is needed to replace Ibanez, BenFran, Gload, or Brown. I don't know and I'm not saying that the Phils ought to count on some of those bad things happening. But going with BenFran, while not my first choice, would not hamstring them should they have to repair the vessel while it's at sea, and I just don't think giving him a lot of ABs is the difference between a postseason run and playing golf in Doctober.

Jack: Write this down: The following players (assuming they stay healthy) will have better numbers than Francisco in 2011: Andruw Jones, Matt Diaz, Brad Hawpe, Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Quentin. And that's just guys whose names I've read recently as being available either thru trade or free agency.

aksmith: You are setting up a straw man (the Phils can't afford to spend on an adequate replacement for Werth so Francisco is a smart move).

You have no idea what they are willing to do with the budget.

I will eat my stereo if Andruw Jones posts better numbers than BenFran (putting aside the circumstance when BenFran gets injured). The guy is a turd and is one step away from putting his career back in the toilet for good. Personally, I'd like to see them take a flier on Diaz, Ordonez, or Quentin, if the price is right. I am not a fan of Brad Hawpe, for whatever reason. Maybe I ought to throw him in with the other non-Jones guys, too.

clout: do you know what they are willing to do with the budget?

Meyer is going to be clearly a AAA filler guy who might get called up if necessary. I know people like to over analyze everything but calm down. Free agency is only 10 days old. There is no timeline like someone DPatrone seems to think there is.

cjp: What did Andruw Jones do last season?

cjp: Nope, I'm as ignorant as you and aksmith on the subject of management's willingness to spend, which is why I'm not in love with Ben Francisco in RF.

I do know this: Spending big bucks on Halladay didn't prevent them from acquiring Oswalt.

Yes, Clout. There are about 30 outfielders who are guaranteed to have better numbers than Ben Francisco in 2011. What will they cost monetarily and/or in trade?

This isn't fantasy baseball. Oh wait, it does seem to be.

As far as trading for one of the guys you mention, I wouldn't put any of the top prospects into a trade. Our of Cosart, Colvin, May, Singleton, Valle, and a couple of others, it's likely that two of them will be at least good big league players. More would be nice, but not realistic. If the Phils are sure they know which ones are going to pan out, then sure, trade the others. But developing players is a numbers thing. The more talent you start into the pipeline, the more likely you'll get your small handful of major league players.

If you constantly trade your stud prospects for short term solutions or mediocrities, you'll end up with a lot of Ben Francicsos instead of just one.

If using him for a season in right getting the bulk of at bats allows you to keep all your top prospects, then you do it and hope for the best. He is a toolsy outfielder with big league experience. Not a really good one, but an adequate one. And with good pitching and some bounce back offensive seasons from other players, he could be a bridge to the next crop of talent, rather than a footnote who was replaced at the cost of gutting the farm system.

If a top notch player comes available, then you take a chance. But I'm not sold on the other options we've been discussing.

clout: I know he had about an .840 OPS. I'm very proud of him. What about the three seasons before that? What sort of picture are you seeing in those numbers, even throwing in his 2010 stats? If you want to roll the dice on that guy, knock yourself out.

Yes, Clout. The budget concerns are merely a straw man.

How's that mortgage on the million dollar mansion working out?

I'm guessing that the Phillies may add 10 mil to last year's peak budget. Just an approximation, but I think a reasonable one. Maybe that allows them to sign a star to play in the outfield. But I doubt it. And they could not have done that Oswalt trade without serious salary relief from Ed Wade. It's possible they could have given up lesser players if they didn't need the salary relief. That pesky budget again. Yea, I know, strawman.

cjp: When's the last time Ben Francisco had an .840 OPS? Oh, that's right, never.

Check back with me at the end of the season on Francisco vs. Jones. Last season was the first time he'd been injury-free and in-shape in 4 years.

aksmith: The difference between you and I is that I know I'm ignorant about the Phillies budget intentions. That's why you look like an ass.

clout: when's the last time Jones had two good seasons in a row? Look, you seem to think the guy has gotten his act together and is likely to be more like his 2010 self than his 2008 self. You're entitled to believe that. I think he's a jackass who got the sh!t scared out of as his career looked like it was coming to a crashing early end and, like so many talented jackasses do, he manage to put himself back together one last time. I think he's a serious risk to backslide and put up numbers a helluva lot lower than he did in 2010. We'll see what happens.

BB- sorry, I'm not trying to at there's "no chance" he moves, I just happen to think this falls into the category of "nobody's untouchable." Towers is doing his due diligence and seeing if anybody will give them an ubelievable package for him. I don't think anyone would meet what I expect to be their price. I very well could be wrong about that, or the value they would want back. If he really us available, I'd love to see the Phils get aggressive and acquire him and maybe Reynolds too. But I don't think he goes anywhere.

That should be "say that" not "at"

Things I have learned about Ben Francisco:

- Supposed to have moderate power and I doubt if he would hit 20 HRs if he had 500 ABs next year. He only has a 9.9% HR/FB and averaged 28.1 AB/HR. Both are fairly pedestrian for a corner OF. Plus, even though he is a dead pull-hitter he only has 3 HRs now in 103 ABs at CBP.

- Supposed to be a fastball hitter but it seems like anybody with a fastball that is above 92 MPH eats him up especially on the inside part of the plate. Seems to handle guy who max out around 90-91 MPH or less and throw it out over the plate very well though.

- Changeups utterly baffle Francisco. Just some ugly lunging swings at them.

- Better defensive player than Ibanez but a guy who is miscast defensively as a RF where he is below average. Not due to a lack of range or speed. Just poor jumps on balls and ability to read the flight once it is hit. Average arm too.

- Player who does have a low baseball IQ. Above average speed and below average baserunner because of some of his mental miscues while on the basepaths. Doesn't seem to make adjustments very well either during an AB or during the course of a game if he starts.

- Guy that Cholly just doesn't like for some reason. Not sure if it is just due to some of his limitations as a player or his mental approach to the game. My bet it is mostly the later.

Basically he is your classic 4th OF who has some above average attributes but shouldn't be a starting corner OF on a decent team. Everyone gets caught up in the fact that Werth is gone but there is also the issue of Ibanez as a full-time starter next year too.

Frankly, I hope this year showed Cholly that Ibanez should really only be a platoon player at this point unless he gets on one of his hot offensive streaks in which case you play him until he subsides. Smart decision would be to have a pretty strict platoon of Ibanez/Francisco next year in LF.

Francisco hits LH starting pitcher especially if the guy isn't overpowering or has a decent changeup. His career line of .283/.353/.481 vs. LH starter in 360 ABs was very similar to his numbers last year i limited time (.280/.323/.548 in 93 ABs).

Francisco only started 22 games last year vs LH starters and a handful of them in RF when Werth was in CF while Vic was out. Considering the Phils had 48 starts last year vs. LHP, Francisco should have been in the lineup more especially when Ibanez wasn't hitting. That's on Cholly.

Hopefully he makes that adjustment this season but it will be one he will only make very reluctantly again well into the year.

NL Manager of the Year voting:

Cholly 5th behind Cox? I think not. You can make an argument that Black, Baker, and Bochy all deserved the aware as much if not more than Cholly especially after the Oswalt trade. Cox got some sympathy votes.

Black didn't deserve the award either. Yeah the Padres won 90 games. They also had a huge collapse down the stretch that wasn't largely injury-related and missed the playoffs. He should have finished Baker.

My favorite was that some voter gave Cito Gaston a 1st place vote in the AL for winning 85 games. 3rd place? Maybe if you want to credit him for winning 85 games & being pretty competitive in the best division in baseball hands down after losing Halladay. Not a 1st place vote.

Girardi didn't even make the Top 5 despite the Yanks winning 95 games and making the playoffs.

It's probably worth mentioning the passing of

Didn't BL lose to The Fightins in the bracket last year?

MG: That's a joke, right? Girardi was given the most talented roster in baseball with a $200M+ payroll AND given midseason additions to help bolster the team.

Gaston was given a $78M payroll with no help coming, after dealing the best pitcher in baseball for 3 kids who wouldn't be on the roster, and told to compete in the hardest division in baseball.

Gaston deserved his vote infinitely more than Girardi deserved any votes that he got.

The Phillies need to bolster their outfield in two ways for 2011: 1) they need an insurance policy for Brown if he is not ready yet; and 2) they need a platoon for Ibanez.

In a platoon, the lefty will get about 2/3 of the PAs, the righty 1/3. I don't have a problem with Francisco starting the season as the righty for LF. Both Ibanez and Francisco should be able to contribute an OPS of .800+.

Because the Phils are a championship-caliber team, they need a good insurance policy against a Brown-out. I would start Brown in AAA for the first three months to polish his defense and get a few more PAs. I would bring in Ordonez, whose bat would be a good replacement for Werth's.

Assuming he's ready, bring up Brown on July 1 to replace Ibanez' bat in the lineup. I would not platoon him with Francisco initially. If Brown shows weakness against lefties after being given a decent shot, I would start a Brown/Francisco platoon.

Ibanez would then have a bench role in the second half of 2011.

Ordonez does not need a platoon, but he could be benched against tough righties in favor of Ibanez to keep Raul fresh for the playoffs.

If we make it to the WS, Ibanez/Francisco could be our DH.

The added benefit of keeping Brown in AAA until July 1 is that his free agency would be delayed one year (2017 instead of 2016).

(There would be defensive concerns with all four of these guys.)

BB~ Andy makes a good point.

As far as the RF situation goes Ben Fran is not the answer. Brown will be a good one but is he ready? But even if he is, being LH, he's not a good fit right now. Plus, doesn't playing Ben Fran weaken the bench? I mean let's say Ben Fran gets the shot to be the guy out there, Rube's gotta find a RH bat for the bench.

I KNOW it's early, but I just don't like the way things are going. Maybe something big will happen later, but something big needs to happen. I know Rube's keen on pitching, but he can't forget about the bats.

We all saw what happened last year offensively. We need RH pop.

I never realizes that saying a guy was better than Jeff Francouer meant he was a star. There are a TON of stars in the majors if that's our current standard.

What GM did the Sandberg, Bowa for Ivan for the Phillies and the Cubs???

Call me a hopeless optimist but I see Francouer right on the cusp of realizing his potential in the properly structured environment. I still believe Charlie would like him as a grandfatherly project. I also like the new guy Meyer. Lots of lefty arms in the family tree.

Kevin - it was Bill Giles. He got taken by Dallas Green.

Giles and Green... thx

Quentin is the better than Francisco - but thats not the question.

The question is - Would you rather have Francsico, about $7M in payroll, more at bats in 2011 for DOM Brown, and 2-3 of your best pitching prospects...or Carlos Quentin.

I personally:

-Think highly of our prospects like Cosart/Colvin/May, etc.
-am optimistic on DOM's 2011
-have concerns over lack of payroll flexibility

So with those opinions, I think keeping francisco is a better option than trading for a superior player whose salary is higher than benfran's and would cost pitching prospects.

If i had different opinions then I could see why others would want to trade for a better option like a Carlos Quentin.

Bill Conlin (yeah, yeah I know) had a line in his article today saying, basically, a little birdie told him the Phils have had pretty extensive conversations with both the Angels and A's, and those conversations included "core players.", et al: We have no idea what Quentin would cost, so you can't really frame the debate in terms of how many "top" prospects we'd be giving up. I don't think the cost for Quentin would be all that high. He's 28, a poor defensive outfielder, and he's injury prone. While he's an above average hitter, he's been inconsistent throughout it. If Quentin cost Rizzotti and JC Ramirez, would you do it?

That said, he's a career .835 OPS hitter, who would be a nice replacement for Werth as a full-time player. He's controlled through 2012, which is where the majority of this team is signed, or has an option to, and his ability to play both OF spots means he can fill in for RF immediately and move to LF during next season if Raul is struggling and Dom appears ready. He would also be the everyday LF in 2012 after Raul leaves.

The Phillies would be better off next year with Jayson Werth, and likely in 2012 too. But beyond those years, when the core of this team is gone, will it be a smart business decision to pay Werth $17 or $18 million to be a corner OF on a rebuilding team at ages 34-36? That's how I look at it right now. I think the key to this offseason is trying to add younger talent that is under contract thru 2012 or 2013 alongside of the current core, while keeping the best pieces in our farm system in tact. You should always look to improve the bullpen and the bench in the offseason. The Phillies window has 2 years before closing, in my mind. But they just had the best record in the leagues, so I do believe they can win two more division titles and give themselves a chance to get hot in October and win another World Series.

"Andruw Jones, Matt Diaz, Brad Hawpe, Magglio Ordonez and Carlos Quentin. "

Sing with me, one of these is not like the others. :) Hawpe is a traditional split LH batter so he shouldn't be in consideration.

Assuming that Amaro is cost constrained, Jones is actually an intriguing candidate for an incentive laden contract. I don't know if he will be offered arb by CWS, if he is he'd probably be a Type B.

Quentin will most likely cost too much in return value. Sneed, I'll play along, sure Rizzotti and JC Ramirez for Quentin would be a no brainer (but it ain't happenin').

" The Phillies window has 2 years before closing"

sneed- That's what Rube's job is all about- keeping that widow open long term.
You can't win every year, but you need to be staffed to be able to win every year.

If they can get Quentin for Rizzotti and Rameriz, then Yes I would do that deal in a split second. I would go further and say that if you can keep any of the top 5 (in my mind at least):

(i'd hate to lose domingo santana too)

Then i'd do the trade. So if the Sox requested a combo of the likes of De Fratus, Ramirez, Aumonte, Rizzotti, Garcia, Zeid - etc. then count me in. I have much less faith in our farm once you get below the the top 5-6.

And actually, I think Rizzotti holds about as much trade value as John Mayberry Jr... which is basically none.

bubba: exactly right. The GM can't start making moves because the window is closing in two years. He needs to make moves to optimize his chances in that original "window", but at the same time extend that window as long as he possibly can.

Again, if you're optimistic for Brown in 2011 like some, giving up talent and money to fill RF isn't really a good idea.

Bubba -- maybe I should have said "with this core." Either way, I think Rube's job is to be realistic. At some point they will have to rebuild, whether it be with young players like most teams, or via FA like the Yanks did after 2008. My guess is the former, knowing the Phillies as we do. That's also the proper way to do it: develop the core of your team internally and augment those guys with key FA signing, whether they are high priced vets (Raul), or younger FA's with upside (Werth).

Plus, if you just look at the contract statuses of these players you see that the core is only signed through 2012, so my point was actually factual. The only proof you need is to see that he signed Shane, Polly and Blanton last year thru 2012 just a year ago. The Phillies have been signing everyone, with the exception of Ryan Howard, thru 2012. I expect a large roster turnover at that point, especially if they don't sign Jayson Werth.

Guys, there's no real argument here. The vast majority of the team is unsigned after 2012. Perhaps Utley and Rollins get short term extensions, and I would assume Hamels gets a longer term deal sometime soon, and maybe Madson is signed to be the closer, but you have Doc thru 2013, and Howard thru 2016 (each with an additional option and buyout). That's it. Everyone else is gone. So a lot of positions need to begin to be replaced after that. Dom Brown in RF is one, but what about CF/LF/3B? SP? RP? C? The window for this current team is going to close after 2012, but a new window will open. I'm just advocating the Phils remain realistic, don't sign too many players in their mid-30's over that period, and keep the farm system in tact so that the current core is replaced by home grown talent.

dlhunter - re: the phitins -

i noticed that earlier today, but i wasn't sure if it was a tech problem or something. do you know what happened?

I love that every winter we have a discussion on here like this:

Some reliever/position player gets signed by another team for a ridiculous contract.

DPatrone starts posting rants about how "Amaro is not moving fast enough in the market. Team X just signed Player Y. Amaro needs to get moving."

Someone(s) post back and tell him the reliever wasn't worth what he caught and anyway there is no set timetable on signing guys.

DPatrone posts back that HE KNOWS there is no set timetable but Amaro needs to get moving.

Could someone possibly be less self-aware than that?

My guess is that Brown will have a successful major-league career, but not so good as the career of Justin Upton, Heyward or Stanton. I would be very happy if Brown can be a regular for the next 10-15 years, hit like Ibanez, play solid defense and otherwise perform like a five-tool player light.

I think that the Phils' window of opportunity can run four more years with Halladay, Oswalt and Hamels at the top of the rotation.

Oswalt has been an absolute stud since the day he walked onto a major-league mound in 2001. His only blip was in 2009. At this time next year and barring major health issues, I would try to sign Oswalt to a three-year extension rather than simply exercise the option for 2012.

If one of Cosart, May and Colvin becomes a top-of-the-rotation guy, that window can stay open even a little longer.

It certainly would be helpful if the Phils could resume being an offensive juggernaut, but it is not essential that they do so to make the playoffs or to win the whole thing again.

All this talk of a RH OF, what's going with Michael Taylor? Is he coming up this year for the A's? They have a pretty crowed OF even with Davis gone.

It's WAY too early (and even downright crazy) to be talking about an extension for a pitcher who we've got under contract for 2 more years, through his age 35 season. It's also crazy to be talking about an extension for a shortstop who has hit .248 over his last 1,022 ABs.

The Phillies do have guys they should be trying to extend this off-season, but Oswalt & Rollins aren't among them. Hamels & Madson would be at the top of the list.

Agree with BAP. The only pitchers the Phils should look at extending should be Hamels and Madson. Madson especially because you don't want to get into a bidding war next offseason with teams desperate for a closer. I think he could replace Lidge in 2012 and 2013 pretty easily.

Extending Oswalt now would be really stupid. Same with Rollins.

Of course, extending Ryan Howard for 5/125 was really stupid last year, and the Phillies went ahead and did that, so who knows what they'll do.

FYI, Utley is here through 2013.

Yo, newer thread

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