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Tuesday, November 16, 2010


So Contreras will be 67 years old when the contract is up? Good for him...If he's 38 Gregg Dobbs is a Silver Slugger finalist.

Nothing more exciting to read than sarcastic remarks about a player's real age.

Given that it's still a great signing.

BedBeard: Guess I won't ask if Danny Almonte available.

you can ask if he's available, sure. But, if you ask what his "real" age is you get a neck punch.

"Real" age has rarely, if ever, turned out to be a major factor in Latin players' careers.

Jose Mesa
Orlando Hernandez
Miguel Cabrera
Jose Contreras

Add Tejada to the mix.

I actually think we should just have a full thread on this subject.

Island time is measured differently than mainland time.

Has anyone discussed the fact that the Phils were reportedly interested in signing Kuroda? I found that surprising given the lack of need for a SP at this point. Maybe they were just trying to entice him to sign so that they wouldn't have to face him for the forseealbe future...

anyone notice b-ref's homepage with the teams' payroll obligations?

The Padres have $5.5M committed to Andrian Gonzalez next season.

That is all. $5.5M to 1 player. Every single other player is either FA or arb-eligible.

And the most.. obviously the Phils: 17 players for $142M

Padres are gonna nontender at least one(maybe both) of Hairston or Ludwick.

Career .829 OPS vs LHP
$2.45M in arb last year
Can play CF

Career .748 OPS vs LHP (reverse splits)
$5.45M in arb last year
Corner OF only

I hope the Phils have a chance to get Hairston moreso then Ludwick. He had an equally brutal year as Hairston in 2010 while in San Diego, and I bet Hairston would have less of a market as Ludwick was an all-star previously and likley is seen to have better upside.

Are we finished yet with the blatant racism against Hispanics with questions and bigoted jokes about the legitimacy of their age?

Will we follow this up with questions of whether or not Jimmy Rollins or Ryan Howard qualified for free or reduced lunch in high school, or maybe if So Taguchi or Chan Ho Park eats dogs or something?

Seriously, enough is enough. His age is what he says it is unless you Baseball Birthers have some access to his birth certificate that we do not or unless you have magical powers in age estimation that is exclusive to the Latin American community.


On the age thing, I will say this, USCIS cracked down on fake documents BIG TIME after 9/11 so its far far rarer for guys to be able to lie about their age. If Contreras (and his paperwork) says he's 38, he's probably 38.

Schweitzer is right, Chinese athletes also lie about their ages (see Yi Jianlian). :p

Latin American players have used age rounding to get signed. Mesa and Tejada have lied about their age.
Park and Taguchi are Korean and Japanese respectively and "dog eater" is a slur for Chinese people.
Jimmy may have qualified for reduced lunch but Howard did not.
This all causes them to have lower Grit Factors than Utley.

Most of the guys that lied, lied before the crackdown on documentation. Tejada came out in 04/05 (I think) but the Astros and Orioles both knew his real age well before that.

By definition, only white middle infielders can be gritty. We call it the Eckstein Theorem.

Will: How the hell does questioning someones age become racist?

By Miguel Cabrera, I of course meant Miguel Tejeda/Tejada.

Congrats to Doc! Well deserved.

Doc wins CY Young in unanimous vote.

Good Job Doc!

The thing about bringing in a guy like Uggla - you'll almost certainly give him tons of playing time because it's almost certain that we'll have an infielder get hurt. The Phillies gave 73 starts worth of awful hitting and fielding to Dobbs, Ransom, and Castro last year because of injuries - granted last year was a particularly high-injury year, but you'll almost certainly need to use your backup infielder heavily.

If you bring in a guy like Uggla, he'll almost definitely get plenty of at bats somewhere on the field (for the same reason your 6th starter seemingly gets 20+ starts a year - Kendrick this year, Happ in 2009, etc.)

I think Uggla is too expensive though. What does everyone think about buying low on Mark Reynolds, with the same idea in mind?

If everyone stays healthy, you break down the starts at the following positions like this:

2B: Utley 140, Polanco 20
3B: Polanco 110, Reynolds 50
LF: Ibanez 110, Reynolds 50

Each guy gets 100+ starts and each guy gets enough rest to keep from wearing down. (I have no idea is Mark Reynolds can play LF, but if he's athletic enough to play third, I assume he'd have no problem with left field).

Any thoughts?

Doc is now Bedrosian's equal!

Congrats to Doc.

And as far as making fun of the age issue is concerned, noone mentioned their background until the person screaming racism brought it up. Funny how it's just amusing until somebody gives it that slant and ruins it. Relax, have a cream soda.

Congrats to Halladay on a great, great year.

Phillie Cy Young Awards since Lefty:


What's wrong with this picture?

Will Schweitzer: Hispanic is an ethnicity not a race. That's why there are black Hispanics, brown Hispanics, and white Hispanics. If you've ever filled out a census or applied for a job, you ought to know that. If Ethnicism is now off limits, can I still be a nationalist and mock Canadians?

If nationalists mock Canadians do humanists mock gnomes?

Will: Miguel Tejada was proven to have forged a birth certificate. There is no blatant racism in that statement, let alone any type of racism at all.

It is a common occurance among prospects from the caribbean and central/south america to lie about their age to get signed.

Adrian Beltre got the Dodgers fined when he did it.
Wandy Rodriguez was caught.
Nats caught their one prospect Gonzalez doing it just last year.

The Mets current GM Sandy Alderson was just assigned to the Dominican earlier this year to head an effort to clean the problem up.

The issue is real and current, regardless how racist you think it is.

And to your point about speculating - Jose Contreras looks very old regardless if he is dominican or not. I will continue to doubt he is only 38 without any proof to the contrary...and I still agree with the signing since Big Truck is the man.

Just don't use the term "Garden Gnome". That has negative connotations....

Andy: at their own risk.

vote was unanimous?

That Bedrosian Cy Young was always a mystery. I remember that was during the first year of the explosion in home runs, and no pitcher won 20 games, but I think Sutcliffe had a great year.

Vote was unanimous, which is surprising yet it makes perfect sense.

Congrats to Doc.

On other offseason rumor topics, according to Rosenthal, Justin Upton is available from the DBacks. He has a contract that locks him up till 2015. If I were the Phillies there is next to no one , in terms of prospects, I wouldn't offer the DBacks for Upton.

The AL award will be a lot more intriguing.

The AL CY should go to Felix but it'll go to CC.

For Upton, I think a package starting at Dom Brown, Jarred Cosart and a 3rd good prospect would start things off.

Congrats to Doc. Wish he had a WS ring to go with it.

As far as Contreras' age is concerned, 2 years for a 39 year-old relief pitcher pitcher is 1 too many. But if he can get the job done and can still throw hard, does his age matter that much?

As far as racism goes or racist statements for that matter, I haven't seen it here. I don't think JW'd put up with that. I don't care where a player comes from or what his beliefs are, if he's wearing Phils pinstripes I'm rooting for him.

On Upton, Rube should just send them a list of our prospects and say "Pick 4, any 4". He'd be the perfect fit for us.

Vote was unanimous. Contreras is 67 years old.

"It is a common occurance among prospects from the caribbean and central/south america to lie about their age to get signed."

That's like saying that it's common for African Americans to spend time in prison, so we are justified in joking that they're criminals and gang members.

Face it - you're taking a factor about his race/ethnicity and using it to perpetuate an unflattering stereotype based on a small number of occurrences of others of similar/same ethnic background.

It's not cool.

Anyway, let's just put a stop to it rather than to debate it endlessly. At very least, it's racially or ethnically insensitive or ignorant and it needs to stop.


Congrats to Roy on the Cy, and congrats to Beerleaguers for avoiding a Mormon joke to mark the occasion. (j/k)

Congratulations to Roy Halladay for a unanimous win of the Cy Young award!!!!

And Roy Oswalt finished 6th in the voting. Not too shabby.

Thanks for the lecture Will. Are you having a slow day?

It's funny how Will, in arguing that we are spewing racial hatred toward Latin players, is using examples rife with racism that noone ever brought up to make a useless and unapplicable point. Does it only get funner?

Doc is the 5th hurler to win the award in both leagues.

Great that the vote was unanimous. Makes me feel a bit better about how the season ended.

FYI the other 4 pitchers to win in both leagues: Clemens, Pedro, Unit, Gaylord Perry

Will Schweitzer: it's outsized, slanderous, over-moralized, self righteous and inappropriate rants such as yours that have made the accusation of racism a tired slur. the glib use of the term only serves to cheapen real racism. Perhaps you should re-read "The Boy who Cried Wolf". I'm sorry if that comes off as harsh, but it makes me angry when individuals are so cavalier with what is actually a very serious denunciation of others.

1. There is shoddy record keeping in many latin american countries

2. There are significant financial incentives to fudge one's age in both directions

3. There are more than a handful of high profile examples

4. Jose Contreras looks 50 and his mom looks 102

5. I (a white non-latino) a would do it in a heart beat as well if I could.

It might be racist if everyone was also questioning the age of Placido Polanco, Danys Baez, Wilson Valdez and Antonio Bastardo.

I'm pretty sure people are joking that Jose Contreras is 60 years old because Jose Contreras looks like he is 60 years old.

Birth records were probably destroyed during the revolution.

I don't think Will S. cared about the Contreras joke, if I'm reading correctly (nor should he).

It was more the posts along the line of this:

""Real" age has rarely, if ever, turned out to be a major factor in Latin players' careers."

In this case, yeah, I think people are making unfair generalizations about ethnic groups.

Anyway, Braves are talking to the Marlins about Uggla. The price? Infante and Dunn. That would be a utility guy and a lefty reliever.

Note exactly a package of top prospects that Clout was expecting. Once again he's failed to understand the current market for poor defensive players due a lot of money and soon to be FAs, regardless of being able to hit 30 HRs.

Looks like it's about a done deal (or a Dunn deal?). Uggla to the Braves. I'll wait to comment further on the quality of the deal until I see exactly what the Braves deal away for him.

Is he really an outfielder now? Or will Braves put him at 2nd, Chipper at 3rd and Prado in the OF? Is Prado back to utility? Braves sure do need OF help.

Rosenthal says the deal is close to being completed.

Omar Infante and Mike Dunn for Dan Uggla. If that's true, Braves will again be a serious threat to win the division next year (and depending on what moves we make, could conceivably be a favorite).

The diamondbacks would be absolutely psychotic to trade Upton with such a team friendly contract. It would be like trading Utley in 2007. Why would you ever do it?

Maybe Clout can spin Infante and Dunn into some package of gold, but as it stands now, it looks like most of us on BL were right and he was dead wrong about the quality of return that Uggla would bring.

Dan Uggla for Infante and Dunn... Seriously? Seriously?!

Jack: Just like last year... I'm looking forward to you, and others, telling us why teams like the Braves are better than the Phils.

The idea that any team in the NL will be a favorite over the Phils with Halladay/Hamels/Oswalt regardless of any moves we make is kind of funny. But predictable that we'll hear that a lot on Beerleaguer!

Has Larry changed his mind about retiring?

Holy crap... the Fish just got fleeced. WTF were they thinking? I still like the Phils in the division but no one can deny that this makes the Braves a much better team. The one thing they lacked last season was a dangerous RH bat, Uggla (his defensive deficiencies aside) provides that middle of the order bat for them now

It's official.

Uggla will play 2nd. Prado will split time at 1st with Freeman, play some LF and spell Chipper from time-to-time.

Fish get Infante to play 2nd or 3rd and Dunn for their bullpen.

I actually really like Omar Infante, but that's an odd trade for the Marlins, who usually insist on getting young, cheap prospects in return for the veterans they trade away.

I agree about the Braves getting better. Phillies are going to need to start hitting more consistently - up to norms again.

Get ready for some more enlightening lectures on how great the Braves are.

Roy H. thanked the Phillies for giving him the opportunity. That's gracious and proper and all, but I think it's more appropos for the Phils to thank him for giving them the opportunity!

CJ and Iceman: I admit to being one of those last year who thought the Braves might be better than the Phils. I will say proudly though that I had those thoughts before they spent most of the year in first place (which most on here didn't see coming). However, after 4 years of winning the east, they have convinced me that I need not worry about the regular season in '11. As much as I worried about the Braves last year, I'm not doing it in '11.

CJ: You misread what I wrote. It wasn't "regardless of any moves we make"; it was "depending on moves we make."

Right now we're probably the favorite in the NL East, and obviously could make moves that would widen that gap. But if the Braves made another good move and we did something like sign Jeff Franceour to be our everyday RF? It's not hard to conceive of a scenario where the Braves could be considered a favorite. Not probable, but it's possible.

Nice piece by Tom Verducci on MLB Network. Might want to catch it on a re-airing if you can. Like from 7-8pm. It was on at about 6:30, so halfway through the broadcast.

I guess the Phillies undershot a bit with the Valdez/Bastardo offer.

The Braves make a monster move. Amaro? Kratz, Bonine, Orr, re-signs Contras. Instead of addressing the RH power bat issue, he does next to nothing so far. With one move, the Braves GM has already had a better off-season than Amaro. RAJ had better step it up, do something big.

Sorry, I meant Contreras.

it's freakin november man. good grief

Perhaps the Rays are putting Upton on the market because he has a reputation as a bad locker-room guy who doesn't hustle, and has been gettin steadily worse over the last 2 years. He was down to a 237/322/423 slash line with a 164:67 K:BB ratio, coming off an 09 season with an 86 OPS+.

He's quite possibly another Milton Bradley type, and I for one definitely wouldn't tell the Rays to "pick any 4" of our prospects for him.

BTW, a hearty congratulations to Doc. He most definitely earned it!

"With one move, the Braves GM has already had a better off-season than Amaro. "

I've been asleep for awhile, but doesn't the off season go on for another 3 months?

Chase Utley needs to start attacking fastballs and pitchers' mistakes like he did in 2007 (here's hoping that he doesn't have a congenital hip issue). Ryan Howard needs to learn to hit with a Kevlar right forearm guard so he can attack the low and away breaking ball – hell, Bonds did it, and walked/ was hit a zillion times, all the while being a serial PED user.

Jimmy Rollins needs to be a not-injured Jimmy Rollins. If all of this happens and Doc and Roy stay healthy for 30 starts apiece, the Phils might win 110 games. Bleep Jayson Werth.

I don't really understand what people expect the Phils to do just now. They are hamstrung, especially until Werth makes his decision.

CJ - I wouldn't say the Braves would be favored over the Phils right now either but we have to see how this offseason plays out. Uggla is huge for them though. Gives them the power they have desperately lacked the (139 HRs last year which was only 11th in the NL).

As for the Fish, I don't know what they are doing this offseason. Yeah, they needed to really rebuild their bullpen but giving out a 3 yr/$18M deal to Buck (classic overpay to a modest FA who had a career year last year) and trading away Uggla aren't going to help their middle of the road offense.

Congrats to Halladay. Definitely the clear and easy favorite. Lived up to the hype.

"The Braves make a monster move. Amaro? Kratz, Bonine, Orr, re-signs Contras. Instead of addressing the RH power bat issue, he does next to nothing so far. "

Is this going to be another offseason of griping about RAJ not moving fast enought from you DPat? Give it some time.

Chris in VT: It's Justin Upton, not B.J., who is available. B.J.'s younger brother.

The guy who put up a .300/.366/.532 line with 26 HRs and 20 SB as a freaking 21-year old in 2009. He had a down year last year (and has some worrying contact issues), but he's a fantastically talented player who is only 23 (he's a week older than Dom Brown).

Aha, that would explain the hyperbole. People should take a look at BJ Upton's first season as a full-timer before anointing Justin a superstar. BJ went 300/386/508 with 24 HRs and 22 SBs in his age 22 season, with some "worrying contact issues" that pitchers have since learned to exploit quite easily. Upton's profile seems to be quite similar...I still would never give the DBacks "any 4 prospects" from our system.

BB~ Yep. I'm entitled to my opinion. 'Cause it always comes down to money. They have a limited budget. And sometimes Rube is too smug for his own good.

Patrone: Don't you have some super-inside source who can tell you (and you alone) all kinds of reassuring things about what RAJ is going to do? Hell, I can make my sock puppets say all kinds of stuff I want to hear.

Upton played much of the year with a strained shoulder and still put up solid numbers.

He's a really good young player.

Uggla to the Braves is disgusting.

I thought Uggla would be cheap but he basically cost nothing...pretty weak by the Marlins GM. That's like trading a Cy Young pitcher for 3 A ball prospects bad.

NEPP - so was BJ a couple years ago...I'm just saying that giving up our 3 or 4 best prospects for an OF who's had 1 good season isn't a smart move, especially for an aging team. And from what I've read, Justin isn't really "available", just that the Yankees and BoSox "checked in" to see if he could be had.

I wouldnt trade Justin Upton if I were them. He's locked up long term on a fairly friendly contract.

BB: i was about to post the same thing. DPatrone last year at this time and at the deadline harped endlessly about Ruben not making deals fast enough.

Patrone- please provide us with what you think the proper time table is for signings?

Jack is giving me a big laugh tonight. When Will predicted the Marlins would get next to nothing for Uggla, Jack agreed and said "I generally think Uggla will go for less than what Clout is predicting." When he learned that the Marlins got Dunn and Infante he had to do some quick spinning by claiming that my prediction was "a package of top prospects that Clout was expecting."

Really, is that what I predicted? Well, no. What I said is that he would get better than the package of mediocre prospects that posters here were predicting. Or to be specific: "They'll land a much better prospect than that trio (DeFratus, Garcia, Valle) or, more likely, a young player already in MLB who they can control for the next 4 or 5 years."

In fact, they landed a young player already in MLB (Dunn) who is higher rated than DeFratus, Garcia and Valle by Sickels and others PLUS Infante, an above-average fielder whose OPS+ the past 3 seasons is 99, 100 and 111.

Good ol' Jack: When proven wrong, LIE!

CJ: Coghlan will play 2B, his natural position and a spot where his bat is more valuable. If I had to guess, Infante will see a lot of time in CF in addition to 3B. The Fish are looking to Bonifacio as their CF and he is rock bottom with the bat. They wouldn't lose much defensively by subbing Infante for him and they'd gain a huge amount on offense. I think Infante gets 450 ABs again next year.

Some folks say Infante will play 2B, but that creates an OF problem where Morrison, Stanton and Coghlan are all corner guys. Coghlan would be a disaster in CF.

Beinfest's strategy is interesting. It almost looks as though he wants to build the team around his bullpen. He's added 2 young quality arms in Dunn & Webb, a slightly lesser quality arm in Mujica and he already has Hensley, Sanches, Nunez, Ohman and Badenhop.

"It might be racist if everyone was also questioning the age of Placido Polanco, Danys Baez, Wilson Valdez and Antonio Bastardo."

Ah...the old "Some of my best friends are [minority]" argument.

No, sir, the racist ignorance isn't excused because you don't apply it to everyone.

It is highlighted not by the fact that posters question ALL Latin American players' age, but that posters EXCLUSIVELY question Latin American players age, and reference back to other Latin American age questions to justify this practice.

In other words, you'd have a defense if posters also questioned the age of Jamie Moyer, Jimmy Rollins, So Taguchi or even a single other non-Latin American ballplayer. It is a stereotype exclusive to one particular ethnicity. It is racism. Defend it all you is common practice for ignorant people to defend themselves when they make ignorant, stereotypical statements. You're in good company.

And yes, Cowley, my analogies to this racism were blatantly racist themselves. That's how analogies work.

Clout: Fair enough; if that's all you were expecting the Marlins to get for Uggla, then I guess we were on the same page.

On another note, since you seem to be pretty high on Dunn, compare his numbers sometime to Antonio Bastardo, the guy you constantly rip on here. Actually, I'll do it for you.

Bastardo is a year younger and has a career 2.5 K/BB ratio in the bigs (in 42 IP) with a 1.48 WHIP, while Dunn has a career 1.45 K/BB ratio in the bigs (in 23 IP) with a 1.74 WHIP. Bastardo also moved quicker through the minors and posted significantly better numbers at each level than Dunn did as well.

CJP~ Yeah I do, and the only names he's mentioned so far are Francoeur and Dye.

TTI~ For the RH bat, the sooner the better. I have no doubt the 'pen will fall into place.

Read the article on comcastsportsnet. Why is he looking for a LH Greg Dobbs type? hen asked about Durbin, all he could say was "no comment". Translation: He's too rich for my blood". He also wants maybe a back-end starter?

He's only willing to sign players that will fit within his budget. To some extent I understand that. In his defense, he made a very good offer to Werth, but his demands are outrageous.

All I'm saying is this: You know you have needs so fill them. The Braves got Uggla pretty cheaply. A need for them. I'm not saying Uggla would have fit here. But I ask all of you. Where is the RH power in the middle of the lineup going to come from. That is my biggest concern right now. I suspect that guy will not just fall into RAJ's lap.

He's made some very good moves during his tenure here. But he's also given contracts to players that were too long (Baez, Raul, Contreras). He's sort of hamstrung himself.

Also, per the comcast article, it's rumored that maybe Raul for Rowand. Maybe that makes sense. But why would SF so that?

Well, let's see how it plays out going forward. Dunn has a better fastball, both have control problems.

I don't rip Bastardo, I rip predictions by you and others of stardom for him. I think he's a solid LOOGY prospect, but nothing more. I recall you falling all over yourself 2 years ago explaining what a great starter he was going to be.

WS - I don't question the age of a U.S.-born player because it is quite easy to check their actual age through several methods.

clout - Fish definitely are upgrading their miserable bullpen but Ohman/Sanches are both FA. Likely that neither is back with the Fish. Also a possibility they might look to move Nunez since he is 2nd yr arbitration eligible and likely will have a decent raise by their standards from his $2M contract last year (say $3-$3.25M).

So Justin Upton is on the trade market. Do you package Dom Brown for him? I do.

Upton is one of the most talented players in the league and under a very reasonable contract through 2015. He's only 22. The only negative I see are the K's.

Uggla trade was just a poor move by the Fish. Trade for a single year of Infante and a guy who likely will be at best a decent middle-innings reliever.

This trade wasn't about the Fish putting a better product out there next year. It was simply them pocketing the difference so the Fish can keep payroll low again.

Just yet another piece of evidence on why there should be a minimum team salary level for all MLB teams.

No owner I despise nearly as much in MLB as Jeffrey Loria.

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