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Tuesday, November 30, 2010


I root as hard as anyone for him but, I hope Moyer's surgery has more to do with future amateur baseball, golfing and bowling activities than it does with plans to come back and pitch in 2012. I just can't imagine being in the same position and continuing to chase a MLB slot.

Someone on the last thread slammed the Braves for making a bad "business decision" in bringing up Heyward and hoped the Phils don't make the same "mistake" with Brown. Whether it was a bad business decision, because how it might effect his contract years from now, is debatable. What is not debatable is that it was a good baseball decision both for 2010 and for Heyward's career development. Looking at the Heyward decision, or the decision on Brown, from any other perspective is foreign to me as a fan of baseball. I think it's a joyless and myopic view of the situation. Ultimately, good baseball decisions are good for business.

From the last thread:
Will Schweitzer -
"Chris: Heyward did not make the difference in the Braves being a championship ballclub. He played well, but wasn't the force that he was touted to be. Now, they've burned one inexpensive year for no ultimate reward and hurt their chances at adding pieces when his arbitration comes a year sooner than it had to. His contribution could have been replicated for less money in the open FA market than Heyward will likely earn in his first arb year...and if whatever value village signee they landed was a total disaster, they could always have brought up Heyward mid-season and kept his first arb year at bay."

So no rookie should ever be brought up unless it makes the difference between winning a World Series or not? You do realize how dumb that statement is, right?

With Heyward, Atlanta made the playoffs by 1 game. Heyward's rookie year was .277/.393/.456 for a 131 OPS+. He led the team in a variety of offensive categories, including OPS and OPS+. He made the All-Star team, finished 20th in MVP voting, and 2nd in ROY voting. He was worth 4.4 WAR, so based on those numbers Atlanta would have missed the playoffs without him.

If Dom Brown has the type of season as a starting RF for the Phils next year that Heyward did for Atlanta this season, the Phils will be the favorites to win the WS again. I'll take that type of "mistake" any day.

"His contribution could have been replicated for less money in the open FA market than Heyward will likely earn in his first arb year"

Oh, and I forgot this...what FA RFer that was available last offseason would have signed for less than what Heyward will earn in his first shot at arbitration (in 3 years) that could have put up a 131 OPS+ and 4.4 WAR?

That entire paragaph really is breath-takingly uninformed and just plain stupid. I'm positively amazed...

Tulo's new contract, worse or slightly better unforced error than the Howard contract? further away from FA, Longer Extension, Injury prone player all negatives for Tulo deal. Positives? Lower AAV than Howard, more athletic, more valuable position.

I would rather live my life typing a bunch of words wrong than live my life thinking that a player with the best OPS on the team spanning 623 total PA wasn't at all responsible for that team making the playoffs by 1 game.

And to incorporate the business side, the Braves played 2 home playoff games because they didn't send their best offensive player to the minors for 3 months. What is the average price per ticket? I would guess at the very least $40. Braves had a 2 day attendance of just under 100,000 for those 2 games. Thats approx $4M in ticket revenue. Throw in concessions, NLDS merchandise, parking, and the cost of a free agent to fill Heyward's position - and there's your money that people like you wanted to save for in 6 years, only you get that money right in 2010.

jbird: Tulo's injury struggles are a real red flag to me in signing a guy to a 6 year extension 4 seasons away from the end of his current contract.

Tulo healthy is among the best in the game tho, so you could definitely do much worse when finding a player to build your franchise around.

Jbird - Don't understand the logic on the Tulo deal at all...He's 4 years away from FA and has shown a propensity for nagging injuries. Why sign him now? You might be getting a discount down the road, or you might be sinking 20 mil a year into an aging, injured, has-been. They really didn't learn anything from the Helton deal they're just now recovering from...

FYI on Tulo extension, per MLBTR:

6 year extension covering seasons 2015-2020 @ $119M.

Wow. That's a Zito-esque signing for Colorado. What happens if, anywehere during a 9 year period, he encounters a career ending injury?

re: topic

Good news on Santana the Second. He's got the stuff to be a late inning reliever. An improvement on his control this season would be a huge step forward for him and this team's bullpen as a whole.

Games played by season for Tulo:

2007: 155
2008: 101
2009: 151
2010: 122

Games played per season by Howard:

2006: 159
2007: 144
2008: 162
2009: 160
2010: 143

Not the flashiest of stats, but Games Played has got to be a pretty important one when the contract seasons are multiple years in advance.

Tommy John surgery for Jamie Moyer sounds like a career ender to me unless he wants to go to the 2012 Clearwater spring fling as a walk-on.

yeah, I just don't see $20 mil a year as a big enough discount for a guy 4 years from FA. Realistically, what would he be looking at if he was on the open market right now? Red Sox & Yankees would both be potential bidders. Maybe he'd get $25mil a year, but that's for his prime seasons not his mid 30's. Maybe the Rockies save themselves $20 or $30 mil in years 5-10 of Tulo's next 10 years, maybe they don't. But the downside is $130 million risk (extension + prior option year) if something goes wrong with an injury prone guy.

Lake Fred: My inside sources say that Amaro is preparing a 2 year offer as we speak.

Stupid business decision by the Rockies. If they had just kept Tulowitzki in AAA last year, they'd still have him for 6 more cost-controlled season. Instead, they put him on their roster, costing themselves cheap years of labor, when the only upside was a .949 OPS and Gold Glove defense -- neither of which helped get the Rockies into the playoffs. Now, as a result of their foolishness, they were forced to come to the table with a huge contract. Terrible business.

LF - Or maybe he is motivated by the rumors of the Pirates finally looking to spend some money moving forward.

so what you're saying is that Tulo only got the contract because he is caucasian?

Chris in VT, I hope you dotted all your I's and crossed all your T's because when you make Will look stupid he starts his spell check. I could have sworn he signed off this blog 2 weeks ago when he called us a bunch of racists for dare suggesting that Latin players have been known to fudge their age a bit. To bad it was an empty threat. He is like VD gone for a while then a massive outbreak. - very astute to bring up his "scappiness"

Jamie Moyer will be throwing 89mph after that surgery, bring him back!

Moyer will show up at spring training 2012 like the Black Knight ("It's just a flesh wound") in Monty Python's "Holy Grail".

In response to the Tulo extension, Amaro will now sign Rollins to a 6-year deal.

Tulo is a fantastic player, one of the 5 best in the NL (easily) when he plays.

I still think it's a terrible idea to sign anyone that far in advance of when you need to, especially a player as injury-prone as Tulo.

Chris: See Buster Posey and the Giants for how to win a championship by bringing up your prospects at the right time, rather than to start the season with them needlessly.

Posey will be a bargain in the season that Heyward becomes expensive.

As for the Braves season, squeaking out a wild card and getting tossed out in the first round of the playoffs is hardly a win worth crowing about, and it is most certainly not worth the added cost of your best prospect becoming a Super Two.

I'm not saying that no rookie should ever be brought up unless it results in a championship, but no rookie should be brought up under ANY circumstances to start a season unless you have nearly unlimited financial resources (Yankees, Red Sox).

To do any different is to provide a slight boost to your ballclub for a month and a half at the expense of a multi-million dollar cost down the road - money that didn't have to be spent that year - money that could have been spent in other areas of the team - money to compete.

If your team is too fragile that it cannot withstand April without a AAA callup, it's too fragile to win a championship. Thus, it's a horribly stupid business decision. Any negative impact from their loss of production in the spring will be more than made up with the spendable cash the team will have in the prospect's final pre-arbitration season.

I, for one, would like to see the Phillies have the financial flexibility to add a piece like Lee or Oswalt in 2013 much more than I'd like to gamble on whatever Dom Brown may or may not do in the Spring of 2011, especially with such a variety of potentially bargain priced outfielders on the market this winter.

Will: You're dead wrong about the Braves and Heyward.

They were trying to make the playoffs this year, so they put their best team on the field (including Heyward), and they made the playoffs. Successful season.

They will sign Heyward to a long-term deal buying out his arb years anyway, so who cares?

The giants, by not bringing up Posey earlier were a 10 game Padres losing streak away from not even making the playoffs period.

Know what the common denominator for Brown & Heyward is? Both are African American. Will Schweitzer = racist.

Jason: Not so. If the situation played out exactly the same minus the Padres losing streak, the 92-70 Giants win the wild card and the 91-71 Braves get shut out of the playoffs. Heyward is still a Super Two and Posey is still a year farther away from arbitration.

Either way, the Giants won the World Series and held off their Rookie Of The Year from early arbitration by doing exactly what I have suggested, while the Braves were an underdog club that was dispatched in the first round of the playoffs while making their top prospect a Super Two by doing what you are suggesting.

I'm not really sure how you can even defend this considering the recent case study of Heyward/Posey. Knee jerk reactions of promoting your top prospect to start the season are foolish decisions. Thinking ahead leads to more spendable cash to compete...and World Championships.

You're hysterical, JBird. You can count on some chucklehead on BL to respond to any post I make with some half-assed attempt at humor with a racism reference.

And yes, saying that someone should be paid less because of their race, regardless of how you justify it, is racist.
ie: saying Contreras must be lying about his age solely because he is a Latin American ballplayer and that other Latin American ballplayers have lied about their age, and that he should get less years/money on a contract to work, is using a stereotype about an ethnic group to justify decreased pay. This is the very definition of racism.

Will: Heyward was more than ready. He put up incredible numbers despite suffering a midseason thumb injury that hurt him markedly at the plate. I see your point, but, I'm sure if you asked the Braves at the beginning of the season if they'd trade $5million in 2013 for a playoff berth in 2010, they'd say yes 100 times out of 100.

Will: please see my above post about the playoff revenues and saved cost of adding another player in 2010. Braves made gamble on Heyward and it paid off. Your argument is definitely legit, but now that hindsight has passed us by, your argument has been squashed.

Perhaps so, but in my opinion, they'd be wrong 100 times out of 100.

Besides, if Heyward is as good as his hype, he stands to make more than $5m in 2013. If he isn't, his production shouldn't be missed for a single spring. Even if it was only $5m, what could that $5m buy in a mid-season trade in 2013?

This is the situation with Dom. First of all, I'd argue that he's not ready after a half season of Reading and a few weeks in Allentown. Second, even if he is ready, picking up a value village right handed bat for the OF and bringing Dom up in May or June may be the difference in allowing Amaro to add a season-changing piece in 2014.

A half season of a proven veteran in 2014 is worth far more than a month and a half of an unproven rookie in the Spring of 2011.

Jason: Hindsight says that the team that followed what I'm saying won the World Series, and your argument is no longer accurate.

Playoff revenue and the cost of a bargain OF may wind up exceeding Heyward's first year of arb salary, but I highly doubt it.

Will: You left out parts of the arguement...again. which I will take as proof of your inability to deal with them

1. he looks 50 and his mom looks 102.
2. Latin American & Hispanic aren't races
3. nobody questions the age of American born hispanics

Also, I don't think anyone was arguing decreased pay, only the 2 year part. And, since your current line of reasoning on Heyward is that payroll flexibility is king, going 2 years on a guy like Contreras, even if his reported age is correct, is dangerous. But hey, keep arguing "the man" ought to keep black players down, even if it means the team won't make the playoffs, so "they" can't make more money.

What is Dom's situation with 35 games played in 2010? Could you still hold him in the minors until end of May to preserve his status or would you need to wait an extra 35 days?

Jbird: You're seriously defending bigotry using the argument that the group you're attacking is an ethnic group and not a racial group? Pretty thin argument there, sir. Even the Klan can do better than that.

Jason: I'm not sure, but if he needed to be in AAA for 35 more days to keep him from reaching Super Two status, I'd do it without hesitation.

Buster Posey and the Giants are not Jason Heyward and the Braves - so the fact that the Giants won the World Series doesn't have anything to do with the Braves decision.

By that logic, the Phillies should have won the World Series by not calling up Brown until the summer, or the Indians should have won the world series because they called up Carlos Santana late.

If nothing else, the comparison shows that doing what I have suggested does not make the difference between the ability to win a championship.

The situation of Atlanta/Heyward and SF/Posey are as similar as you're ever likely to find in a single season, thus the comparison. One does not have to equal the other completely for the comparison to be made.

poor wording on my part. What I'm trying to get across is that keeping Posey in AAA for the start of the 2010 season did not keep the Giants from competing and eventually winning a championship, nor would it have been for keeping Heyward in AAA in May.

The move was criticized last spring, and I'm critiquing it now for the same reason. Heyward's performance in the first month of 2010 is irrelevant to the discussion of what is best for the team, both in the immediate and near distant future.

Will: ask anyone in baseball and I think they'd take the playoff spot b/c once you make the playoffs anything can happen, like a ragtag lineup of once-where's and never-wases can win a WS.

Dom shouldn't start the year in Philly because he's not Heyward and he probably isn't ready. I'd like to see Mags Ordonez or Werth playing in right next year with Dom taking over for Ibanez starting in mid-season.

There is no connection whatsoever between Jamie Moyer choosing #50 and Jose Contreras #52.

Will: now who's being a chucklehead?

JBird: I agree on both accounts (particularly adding Magglio). I disagree in that I feel holding Heyward back would increase the likelihood of a playoff spot in 2013 in addition to 2010.

If Heyward were brought up in June and went on a similar tear in June/July that he did in April/May, it's not unreasonable to assume that the Braves would be within striking distance of the wild card.

It's just a difference in management opinion. I argue for what I feel is the greater good, you argue for what you feel is the immediate reward. I suppose there are sides for both and I see yours, but we'll have to agree to disagree.

MVP TommySchweitzer.

Will: Do you think Frank Wren should have foreseen that, while Jason Heyward might be good enough to help the Braves lead the division for most of the year & eventually get into the playoffs via the Wild Card, he wouldn't be good enough to prevent them from losing in the first round? Or do you think maybe what happens once the playoffs start is largely a matter of the right guys getting hot at the right time -- a factor which cannot be controlled by any amount of planning?

BAP: You can't plan for everything, but you CAN plan for some things, such as preventing your top prospect from reaching Super Two status.

It is foolish to ignore what you can control because of the things you cannot control.

Donc: cute.

Will: Since you're more concerned with saving money 6 years down the road than you are with winning games today, I direct you to Jason's 9:23 a.m. post which very clearly spells out why putting your best team on the field is both smart business and smart baseball.

And by the way, this whole notion of down-the-road salary savings is fairly illusory. By the time a player is in his 6th year of service, an arbitrator is going to award him a salary that is pretty much in line with what he would get on the open market. Hence, little, if any, savings to the team for having delayed the player's call-up.

Concern is for the big picture, the entire situation as a whole as opposed to a tiny piece of it, such as a month and a half of spring baseball.

At any rate, I've made my argument. I'm not going to keep paraphrasing it. SF and Posey make my argument for me.

Remember Chris Coste.

chuckleheads everywhere have been offended by the prior posts/rants. btw, most cloutlike drunk redneck hillbilly braves fans don't care about saving some cash for the owner(s) of their franchise, they care about winning now. Heyward gave them a better chance of winning now then resigning garret anderson.

Jason Heyward started for the Braves on April 1 for two reasons: 1. He's one of the best prospects to come along in many years; 2. He hit .305 in Spring Training with 30% of his hits going for extra bases.

Dom Brown isn't remotely the prospect Heyward is, but if he hits .305 with 30% of his hits for Xtras in Spring Training he damn well better be the starting RFer.

clout: but the giants won the WS. So you're wrong.

is chucklehead a racial term?

I agree with clout.

I'm not clear why we're discussing Heyward as a super two player. He'll be arb eligible after 3 years, no? They just took all hte guesswork out of it - bit the bullet and put him in the lineup. If he makes more money in hte long run, as a result, at least he earned it. I'm not sure that it's known, today, that Posey won't be a super two at the same time. Is it?

gobaystars!!! - I think chucklehead is ethnic. Like hunky.

As I recall, Posey didn't start in April because he was blocked at catcher by Molina and they didn't want him to be a backup. In fact, they had him play 1B when he was sent down, thinking he could play there. But Huff suddenly turned into a superstar and the only solution was to deal Molina. By the time that got worked out it was the end of May.

A smart team would sign Heyward to an extension buying out his arb years anyway, and a couple of FA years.

My guess is that, assuming he plays at a high level again this season, the team and Heyward agree to a 6-year deal at something just higher than Justin Upton's deal was--Upton was $51.5M over 6 years, so I'm guessing Heyward will get in the $55M range.

Will Schweitzer I think you need to come up with a new user name because I can't get by that nonsense you were talking a couple weeks ago. Time for a fresh start my friend.

Pedro Feliciano(Type B) declined arb. More of a reason to stay away from him. Mets made a smart move there.

Thats a scary thought, an NL team in NY who doesn't screw up even the smallest of front office decisions.

Lake Nostradamus predicts that all this worrying about Dom is a waste of time as Rube, Jr. will pull a rabbit out of the hat, surprising the baseball world by resigning Werth. Then, we can spend futures years on BL arguing about Werth's RISP and his seemingly lackadaisical play in right field.

Why would Pedro Feliciano declining arbitration be a reason to stay away from him? The team signing him doesn't lose anything because he's a type B. Is not wanting to play for the Mutts now a character flaw? I'd say just the opposite.

aksmith: I think it's more that declining arbitration was a signal that he sees his price tag as higher than he would've won in arb ($4 mill or so). That's the only thing I can think of--that we should stay away from a middle reliever with a price tag that high.

Will: I can't believe that you can't understand the issue with your "racism" claim. Being from a specific part of the world is not a race or an ethnicity. Nobody is questioning the age of American-born players of any race, or Asian-born players, or Hispanic players from Puerto Rico because there have been no cases of issues with the age of players from these places.

On the other hand,

Your insistence that people questioning Contreras' age is blatant racism is one of the more absurd things I've ever read.

So sandwich pick means the signing team doesn't give up anything, the Mets just get a generated pick?

I thought it meant signing team still gives up something.

from DH Phils link:

Carlos Ruiz originally signed with Phils being born in 1980, but really was born in 1979.

Will is still fixated on the ridiculous 'their are racist undertones because your question a Latin player's age who wasn't in the US?"

Yeah, yeah I do question a guy like Contreras or a ton of other Latin players who weren't born in the US simply because it is to their benefit to under report their actual age for numerous reasons. The quality of the record keeping in these countries (especially the Dominican Republic) is quite mediocre at best too.

If a Latin player was born in the US or in Puerto Rico, then I am not likely to question their age because of the relative ease and quality of the record keeping in the US.

It should be noted that the record keeping-and MLB/USGOV due dilligence-is much better than it was a few years back. That's why it annoys the heck out of me when X teams signs a Latin player, the "check his birthday!" comments start immediately.

Damn. Can't comment on BL today. My good white hood is at the cleaners and I can't type the truth about the birth records of foreign born Latino players without it. Got that cross burning later tonight there's that.

Bed Beard -
Dont be annoyed. I think its just people being people. Trying to lighten things up. Like when someone says "thats what she said"
"Phils signed Contreres" "thats what she said" "check his age"

MG: In fact, the birth certs in Puerto Rico were so notoriously false that the U.S. government invalidated all of them issued before July 1, 2010. Everyone had to reapply with proof that they were who they said they were.

this is my least favorite time of the baseball calender. Nothing much really happening, teams and free agents just sort of circling each other but waiting for a market to develop. Can't wait for the GM meetings.

I am beginning to long for the good old days, when we were afraid to spell the name C_ _ L_ _ and who was sleeping with whom's wife was thrilling discussion.

And before anyone tells me I got my who and whom wrong, you're probably right but I gave up caring about that one decades ago.

clout - Didn't realize that. Would have thought they would have as a US Territory.

There haven't been many bigots in the history of this country who haven't made light of their bigotry and insulted those who point out their sins.

If you have no shame in what you're anonymously posting on an internet blog, please, by all means, go to an autograph signing and tell Contreras that he doesn't deserve a 2 year contract because he's a foreign born Hispanic ballplayer, and this ethnic group has a stereotype of lying about their age, so that stereotype must apply to him.

See if he thinks it's racist. Ask Ruiz, Ibanez or any other Latin American ballplayer.

Better yet, fire that statement off at Ozzie Guillen. I will pay your hotel expenses and give you $500 in cash just for the right to stand next to any of you who have the balls to tell him that Contreras should earn less money or a shorter contract because he's a Hispanic ballplayer.

It's easy to be a bigot with a big mouth on the internet, hiding behind a username, isn't it. Shameful. Shameful and cowardly, more so because I suspect none of you would have the guts to attach your names to such blatant racism, or to discuss it openly in person.

It must be nice to jump from 39 to SS eligible in a couple of years.

So, if/when I claim (rightly or wrongly), that Americans are fat and lazy, which race, exactly, is it that I'm offending? I just want to make sure I'm prepared and not ticking off the wrong race.

Before any of you carry on whining about me talking about this, remember, it wasn't me who brought it up.

If individuals insist on inserting cute little jabs about racism into every conversation in a sorry attempt at humor, I will respond with the same diatribe and revisit this same discussion, each and every time. I won't bring it up, but you can be sure it will be a discussion that we will have every time someone else brings it up.

In short: if you don't want to discuss your bigotry, don't bring it up.

Will - Who said anything that Contreras doesn't deserve a 2-yr contract because he's a foreign-born Hispanic player?

I would have to sign any reliever in their late 30s to a multi-year deal especially to a guy (Contreras) who has had injury problems the last few seasons, went through a dead-arm period last year in June, and steadily lost velocity as the season progressed. What this has to do with him being Latin, I have no idea.

Do I believe he is his self-reported 38 turning 39? No, no I don't. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he was at least 1-2 years older. Maybe more.

If that makes me a racist in your whacko view of things, then so be it. Get me my robe and klukker membership card.

Didn't Ozzie Guillen once claim 2 years ago that Jose Conteras was really 47 years old? I guess he was kidding around, and it is not shameful for him. Since you know, he did it face to face and not behind a user name

MLBTR says that Moyer's having TJ surgery & actually wants to pitch again in 2012, when he'll be 49. In reality, he may even be older than that, since he's probably lying about his age.

Will: $500? done and done. how do I collect and do we have to share a hotel room? I like to sleep nude and I don't want things to get weird between us. . . what's funny about your reply is that it was noted earlier that Carlos Ruiz did in fact lie about his age. As I've said before, I'd do the exact same thing they did put in the same circumstances. It's not about race it's about need and opportunity.

MG: I don't know what you specifically said.

What I said is that when the contract was signed, individuals on BL said that it was for too much money and/or too many years in light of questions about the validity of his age.

Questions about the validity of his age stem solely from the fact that he is a Hispanic ballplayer, and one of the unflattering stereotypes exclusive to foreign born Hispanic MLB players is that they lie about their age.

Therefore, the statements, by extension, is that the man should be paid less because he is a Hispanic ballplayer and therefore cannot be trusted.

This is racism (or bigotry, if you prefer, as we're discussing ethnicity).

You don't have to like it.

You don't have to agree.

You don't have to understand it.

...but you will be told, again and again, each time it is brought up or referenced in any way, that this is bigotry.

And if this is how you feel... are a bigot.

End of story.

This is the least interesting discussion in the history of BL, which is saying something.

Not Ralph: found it, "Guillen suggested with a smile that Contreras and Thome were older than advertised. He estimated that Contreras was 49 and Thome 47."

@ Will: hopefully you won't try to insult me if I chuckle at this.

Jbird: did he suggest that the man not deserve to make a living because he's Hispanic?

Anyone wanna get back to discussing the Tulo contract?

I thought it suffers from the same obvious flaw as Howard's deal (committing a huge amount of years and money way earlier than you had to), but it's also quite obviously not as bad a deal. You're getting a younger, better player for less annual money.

The only issue I can see is that the Rockies aren't as financially strong as the Phillies. They were hamstrung for years by Helton's contract. I think the Phils can overcome a huge mistake contract a lot better than the Rockies can. Like the Howard deal, though, it seems to be a rather large bet on inflation picking up in the baseball market.

Will: you're getting a little cloutian in your ability to change the argument of your opposition rather than deal with what was actually said. Nobody here said that either. Even at his declared age, a 2 year deal isn't the best idea. Grow up.

No Will, but I think at one time he suggested that Asians shouldn’t be treated as well as they were being treated by MLB. Which to some extent is like saying they don't deserve to work.

I recall another instance where he implied white American males didn’t really do any work, so maybe he thought they didn't deserve to work either, because, you know, they weren't working anyway. Maybe he just said they were lazy. Don't remember.

I believe at another time he made derogatory comments regarding homosexuals.

Anyway, pick a different ambassador for race relations

Jack: I don't know what the Rockies were thinking, unless they are banking on a big inflation of player salaries.

I still wanna know when I can earn this $500. I have a 9-5-er and I work part time on the weekends, so I'd like a little advanced notice so I can put in for leave before we go to. . . Chicago? Venezuela? I'm kinda looking forward to the trip.

"You're getting a younger, better player for less annual money."

Better, yes. Younger? I have my doubts. If he were that young, he wouldn't get injured as often as he does. He's clearly lying about his age.

Not Ralph: If this is true, you're right. Guillen is not the best ambassador for race relations. I brought him up more because of his temper and likelihood to verbally tear someone a new a**, not because he's PC.

Will: but Ozzie also questioned Contreras' age and Ruiz lied about his, Raul Ibanez was born in New York (I guess you assumed he was from Latin America based on his name. . . ). So you have someone else you want to nominate as your spokesman to defend the honor of Latin American baseball players? Maybe Danny Almonte?

Will - I did question the Contreras signing in part because of his age and no I don't believe his reported age of 38 going on 39. I also questioned the Ibanez deal because of the heavily backloaded 3rd year because of his age. I don't question Ibanez's age because he was born in the US.

I guess then I am a bigot in your deluded line of reasoning.

Jack - I wonder though what the Phils attendance will be like in say 2-3 years if their record lags a bit. My bet is that they will enjoy a sustained attendance boost for a few years even if their record sags after next year just like it did after '83.

I would imagine though that Howard's contract could effect their competitiveness if say their payroll is $130M in 2014, Howard is making $25M, and his numbers have notably dropped off (30 HRs guy max).

I don't even get what this argument is about. Is Will saying it's racist to mention the Age-Gate scandal? Or that there's a long history of Latin prospects lying about their age when they sign?

That has been pretty much cleaned up by MLB over the past few years, but it did exist. It wasn't some racist's imagination.

MG: "I would imagine though that Howard's contract could effect their competitiveness if say their payroll is $130M in 2014, Howard is making $25M, and his numbers have notably dropped off (30 HRs guy max)."

Unless, of course, the average contract for a 30 HR-hitting firstbaseman in 2014 IS $25 million.

Food for thought:

Didn't realize that Halladay was the first Phils' pitcher to lead the team in WAR since Schilling did it in '97. Generally pretty hard thing to do.

Have to hope that Halladay holds up Lefty did who was still a dominant pitcher until age 38 in '83.

clout - That's a crazy CAGR in just 4 years in an environment where you aren't likely to see huge increases in baseball salaries largely due to a slowdown in overall baseball revenues (less new stadiums being built, no huge boost from the online, etc).

clout: the number of African Americans in prison is not imagination, but to suggest that an African American shouldn't be hired because other African Americans are in jail is certainly bigotry.

The analogy holds true for Latin American ballplayers. I don't care if you have 1,000 proven examples of Latin American players lying about their age - Contreras is an individual, and applying an ethnic stereotype to him in an argument that he should be paid less is bigotry.

Will: I guess I missed the part where someone said Contreras should be paid less because of his race.

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EST. 2005

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