Part of CSNPhilly.com


« A moment to appreciate Doc’s deputy hero | Main | »

Friday, October 08, 2010

Comments

At what point does the hype being for Halladay-Lincecum Game 1 NLCS matchup? Presumably if both Phils and Giants win tonight, people will start penciling it in and talking about it.

Would be one of the most anticipated pitching matchups in a long, long time, given what the two of them just did.

If both teams sweep, it'd probably be the first time in postseason history where two pitchers matched up after having both posted game scores of greater than 94 in their previous game. (Halladay=94, Lincecum=96) In fact, it definitely would be.

I can't wait.

Very excited about tonight.

In fact, if the Giants and Phillies both win their series, and don't have to use Doc or Lincecum again until the NLCS (aka, Phils sweep), this would be the combined numbers of the two game 1 pitchers' last start

18 IP, 2 H, 2 BB, 0 R, 22 K, 0.18 WHIP, 11 SO/9

What a joke!

"Wilson Valdez filled in admirably of course."

What a find this guy was.

Fatalotti's 10:01 PM post in the last thread is a must read.

The post game interviewer for Lincecum asked good questions, unlike the lame questions asked of Halladay a day earlier. TBS must have an A, B, C & D crew. We got the D crew in Cincy.

TBS had Tom Verducci, who is a pretty damn good baseball writer for Sports Illustrated. He did ask some great questions. And he's actually shorter than Lincecum, which is hard to believe.

Lake Fred is still hating David Aldridge? Hah jeez.

Tom Verducci was actually the main writer for the the Phillies World Championship SI issue.

Ernie Johnson, though, has to be the worst play by play guy I've ever heard. Thank God he's doing the Yankees games.

Let's see how many innings we can go before the Reds get a hit.

Jason.tp, I don't hate David Aldridge. My oldest daughter has a journalism degree and it is a subject well discussed in my household. I can tell the difference between a good interview and a bad one. The Halladay post game interview was a waste of my viewing time. The Lincecum post game interview, by comparison was much better.

I have ears and a brain and I know that the questions asked by David Aldridge to Doc were not very good. He may be great when talking basketball or football, but baseball pitching? Not his best skill set.

"Wilson Valdez filled in admirably of course."

What a find this guy was.

-I agree! Of all the moves Amaro did this year, this might still be his greatest.

Joe, DO NOT rempt the baseball gods with such displays of contempt for the opponent.

What's with the Twins? Do they need to be spotted a 3 run lead in order to lose to the Yankees? I think I'd rather see them get clubbed 12-0 then repeatedly give up leads again this team.

Now there's a 'joel' posting. This ought to be confusing.

While I won't discount Valdez contributions, how is anyone not irritated by his mannerisms on the field?

The second out in the 9th was a perfect example. You're really going to swipe your mitt at a foul popup like that? No Hitter or not, that just looks stupid.

Need some advice on a good place in the DC area to watch tonight's game - thanks!

JW, James Brown in your music rotation?

Awesome! I never thought a young pup like you would reach that far back.

rdgcans, I posted this on the last thread in response to Spitz:


""Anyone know and Phillies or Eagles bar in London?"

Spitz, Phillies Nation has a list of

"Phillies Bars Around the Globe".

I make no claim as to it's accuracy:

http://www.philliesnation.com/beer/phillies-bars-around-the-globe/

I dont know...I think the Oswalt trade was better than Valdez.

NEPP: Absolutely, at least Oswalt can play left field as well.

jason.tp, methinks you're overreacting.

I took it as Valdez was just burying the ball in his stomach to make sure he held on to it.

At that point in the game, as the announcers said, there was no such thing as a routine play.

Just because Valdez is a capable utility infielder does not make him great. Other teams have had guys like this. The Phillies have had horrible seasons from Nunez, Bruntlett, and Castro in recent years for comparison.
He was an important piece and his consistency fielding and just enough hitting was all that was needed. Much better than shuffling through Castro, Ransom, and others if Valdez could not cut it.
I support bringing him back on a 1-year deal because getting someone else (like Bloomquist) is unlikely to be much better. With a good pitching staff, excellent fielding may trump getting a stronger bat for that role.

Does anyone know of any good Phillies bars in the DC Metro Area?

There are four pitchers in baseball that can legitimately be in the argument for best picher in baseball: Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay, CC Sabathia, and Tim Lincecum.

All four are likely going to be advancing to the league championship series. 2 of those will be paired up for the first game of the World Series.

Great time to be a baseball fan.

Fat: Sabathia & Lee are both tremendous pitchers, but I think it would be a major stretch to suggest that either is the best pitcher in baseball. I do, however, think Adam Wainwright belongs in the conversation, along with Lincecum & Halladay.

"Just because Valdez is a capable utility infielder does not make him great."

Truer words were never spoken. So much butt-kissing goes on on this blog regarding Wilson Valdez. He did a capable job as a substitute, that's it. And he did do that, good deal. He also hit into a million double plays and has a low average. Sure, he's got a great arm. But all this Wilson Valdez for MVP/legend status that goes on on this blog is disgusting. Guys like him are all over the league. Bring him back for a year, sure, but everytime he plays in a game, do we need to call it "he played admirably?"

C.C.'s a piker

When we beat Sabathia in 2008 with the Brew Crew he seemed to be a far better pitcher despite his wins this season, which were more a product of the Yanks scoring for him. The top pitchers in the game today are Halladay, Linsecum, and Lee. King Felix is on the fringes.

Someone on fangraphs claimed the other day that Cliff Lee's BB/SO ratio this season was the second best of all time. Felix and Halladay clearly seem better than him at the moment, but he's up there.

I see calling RoyO "litte" as quite offensive.

The man is 6'1" 190lbs (my exact dimensions), and its not his fault he stands next to the likes of RoyH, KingCole, BigJoe, and KK (who are all 6'3" and taller).

Don't forget, the only reason we have Exxon is b/c nobody picked him up when the Phils DFA'd him earlier this year.

King Felix is better than Lee and Lincecum already.

Tiny Tim's an excellent pitcher, but he took a step back this year (even with last night's performance.

Re: DC Phils bars. Ventnor's in Adams Morgan has a rep for being a Phillies bar. I've watched games at Crystal City Sports pub, but it's not Phillies-centric, per se.

This year, Doc is the best pitcher in baseball.

Last year it was probably Lincecum.


I think everyone is forgetting Felix Hernandez who is the best pitcher in the AL easily.

Over the last 5 years, I'd go with Halladay #1 and Lincecum #2.

For the decade, I'd go with Halladay and then maybe Oswalt.

So, that Halladay guy is pretty fvcking good.

Halladay is in the Top 10 pitchers I've ever really watched pitch. Among recent pitchers (last 25 years), I'd put the following guys above him: Pedro, R. Johnson, Schilling (maybe), Maddux (no question as he was a better version of Doc and one of the Top 10 pitchers of all time), Clemens (pre juice) and that's about it.

I'm sure I'm missing a couple. Doc is really special.

****Tiny Tim's an excellent pitcher, but he took a step back this year (even with last night's performance.****

He's not a classic power guy anymore but his off-speed stuff is among the best in the game. Even if you look at the best pitchers in history, they had rough patches in their careers...years where it wasn't really working for whatever reason.

Mitch Kramer is a pretty good pitcher.

I don't think anybody here has ever suggested Valdez is a great player, period. As in, would make a great starting SS. Although, if you are talking defense, I think he could hold his own among at least average starting SS.

All you have to do is look at how much he was utilized this year due to the injuries of our IF, to realize how valuable he has been in providing capable defense and a sprinkle of offense as well. I think it is worth noting when backup players fill in well for injured teammates. Charlie and Jimmy Rollins have also noted the contributions of Valdez; why shouldn't we? That doesn't mean anyone is annointing him an All-Star or enshrining him in the HOF.

As others have pointed out, if he were "great," he would be playing everyday for another team. I believe everyone here recognizes that fact. But when you think we could have had all those games filled in by Eric Bruntlett or Juan Castro.....I think it becomes easy to understand why we are happy to have Valdez.

Valdez saved the team's ass this summer and saved Rube from having to burn prospects on a middle infielder...prospects that were instead used for Oswalt.

Had we gotten a guy like Wigginton or Peralta, we wouldnt have been able to get Oswalt most likely.

He was a small but key piece...one of those great role guys that every championship team has.

Yeah, he's nothing special overall but he sure was huge at times with 3 of 4 infielders down for significant chunks of the season.

The Braves defense has sure gone into the sh*tter these past few weeks. They were terrible in our series with them and 2 more errors last night. It's a big reason why they backed in and will bow out.

Losing Prado and Larry hurt them big time offensively and defensively.

Having to toss McLouth out there every night in CF is also killing them. McLouth is one of the worst CFs in baseball (all around and defensively).

I concur with Phx and Billy on all this "Valdez as legend" talk. This is not meant as a shot at Valdez, who has filled in capably and has easily been our best utility infielder since Tomas Perez. Nonetheless, he's still a .258/.306/.360 hitter and one of the single biggest rally-killers in baseball with all the DPs he hits into. I support bringing him back also, but all this legend that's starting to surround him (including Cholly's zany Team MVP label) is pretty over-the-top. He's a utility infielder, nothing more, nothing less. Unlike the last 3 or 4 utility infielders we've had, he has actually performed his job adequately. That makes him adequate, not heroic.

Did Lincecum settle down a bit later in the game? He wasn't in the strike zone at all when I watched earlier in the game, but was still getting K's... granted, I guess thats what makes him soo good that he was getting Strike outs with out throwing an actual strike... his fastball while i was watching were all high and out of the zone.

Cipper, the only thing that matters is if Roy O. feels being called "Little Roy" is offensive.

And I hope that if you take offense to it, as a man who stands 6'1", that you are don't make remarks about those men who are truly short of stature.

It is comical that Jimmy Rollins, who's 5'7" or 5'8", uses that nickname for Roy O.

NEPP -
"He's not a classic power guy anymore but his off-speed stuff is among the best in the game. Even if you look at the best pitchers in history, they had rough patches in their careers...years where it wasn't really working for whatever reason."

I still think he's in the conversation for top 10 pitchers in baseball. Based on this season, though, you can't really make an argument that he should be talked about as possibly THE best. I think Doc and King Felix are the two best in baseball right now. There's a big group behind them that includes Wainwright, Lee, Lincecum, Hamels, etc.

But Halladay and Felix are in a tier to themselves at the moment.

McCann really tailed off in the 2nd half as well, or so it seemd. I think if they were going to really challenge us or make noise in the post season they needed him to go off.

How about King Felix wins 1 Cy Young before we state that he's definitely better than Tim Lincecum, who's won 2 in his first 3 years in the league, huh? Tim Lincecum was having trouble with his mechanics this year, and, took a step back to become a 3.5 ERA pitcher (the horror...plus his advanced numbers suggested he was even better than his ERA). He's clearly regained his dominance over the last month, and if it weren't for Halladay's no-no a couple days ago, his performance last night would be getting oodles of airtime. I personanlly think he was just as dominant last night as Halladay was Wednesday.

Also, King Felix, while being a terrific talent, and an amazing pitcher, has been pitching in no pressure Seattle for a couple years now. Lee, on the other hand, has dominated in the postseason for SIX STRAIGHT STARTS, and CC, despite his relatively tame year this year, is a former Cy Young award winner, and had an amazing postseason last year, as well. He also pitches better on 3 days rest than anyone in the game, and he'll do it 10 times in a row if you ask him.

If I had to choose a pitcher to pitch game 7 of the WS for me, I'd be choosing for Lee, Doc, CC, and Big Time Timmy Jim (obviously choose Doc first).

Shawn: Ventor's in Adams Morgan, and Rhino in Georgetown. Rhino's upstairs is Phillies, downstairs is/was Bosox. Since the Bosox are out, it's a Phillies bar.

****But Halladay and Felix are in a tier to themselves at the moment.****

Definitely.

I just wouldn't be surprised if Lincecum was right back up there next year pushing for another Cy Young. Hard to believe he's only 26.

Braves have the most errors in at least the NL since the All-Star break.

The Rays were making some mistakes yesterday, too. Not a good sign for them.

****How about King Felix wins 1 Cy Young before we state that he's definitely better than Tim Lincecum, who's won 2 in his first 3 years in the league,****

In all honesty, Felix should have won last year and he should win this year. He was arguably better than Greinke last year (at a minimum, they were equal) and he's been, by far the best pitcher in the AL this year.

NEPP: Schilling was not better than Doc. He was great, but better than Halladay? Really?

With you on the others though. Might even put Johan Santana in the conversation, but Doc is better, especially more recently.

yesterday was the first time a manager (s) was booted in the post season since 2003 when Professor Larussa was tossed with the Cardinals.

GB: I was only being sarcastic... It's just funny how we can refer to athletes as "small" while standing at 6'1". I actually find it really funny because many of my friends complain when with me at bars because I make them look too short... but when I go to games, I'm still awed by the size of players like Howard, and Werth.

Yeah, you're right on Schilling. He was really good but Doc is at another level.

Shilling was simply a big game guy is all so I remember him as better than his numbers really were.

NEPP, I agree that King Felix is a stud, and could be the best pitcher in baseball, but the notion that Lincecum isn't even in the discussion for best pitcher in baseball is laughable. He's got more Cy Young awards than anyone else who's been mentioned, and he just struck out 14 in his first postseason game.

Also, Lee's postseason resume has to put him in the discussion.

Not important, but I found that I really liked the classic look of the San Francisco uniforms last night. That bright vanilla cream color really looked cool versus the Tomahawk Chop grays. Lincecum was pretty good as the game went on.

I felt sorry for Lowe getting lifted. He gave up that lead off triple (that Vic would've caught), struck out the next guy, then walked a guy on a full count. Cox comes out and pulls Lowe for a reliever who promptly gets out of the jam with a double play. Lowe could've done that, too!

Cox is a fool. Later in the game, he brings in a reliever to intentionally walk a guy, then brings in a different guy to pitch to the next batter. Duh? Why not bring in the second guy and save a bullpen arm. I hope the Giants send Cox into early retirement.

****I'm still awed by the size of players like Howard, and Werth.****

Yeah, Howard towers over guys...he's huge. Werth is taller but he's just lanky looking in comparison.

Adam Dunn makes Howard look like a midget. Haha.

Some guys would be taller if they had necks.

If Felix played in a bigger market we'd be sick of hearing about him. That's how good he is. Hard to believe he's only 24.

As poorly as Oswalt's and Hamels' records show how good they were this year, Felix at 13-12 is even more ridiculous. It's like Randy Johnson's 2004 season.

Just watched the Posey steal replay. He was out by 5 inches. It was on a 3-2 pitch to Burrell.

Fatalotti, are you seriously saying that because Felix has no Cy Youngs that THAT should matter?

It's a VOTED on award FCOL, voted on by a bunch of sportswriters, many of whom barely see some of these guys actually pitch.

Do you really think the CY is an objective measure?

I thought you were smarter than that.

You can see why Posey normally doesn't steal.

I can't believe there are people making the argument that Lincecum's outing was better than Roy's no-no. It's really not that close. Lincecum gave up two rockets for doubles in that game and had a hitter reach third base.

Halladay was NEVER in trouble. Not even close. There was never even a deep fly ball. There was ONE line drive, and that came from an opposing pitcher.

Sure, Timmy had the high profile K's, but Halladay dominated.

CJ, word!

Oswalt's run against the Reds was incredible, but I think it's more significant that *this* year's Reds tagged him the most recent time they saw him. What he did against the Pokey Reese/Adam Dunn/Austin Kearns Reds of yesteryear is not especially relevant.

Not that I really think the Reds are going to do all that much with him. And the Phillies, on the other hand, own Arroyo, and as we know this Phillies lineup has largely been the same one for a number of years. They should handle him easily tonight.

When I say that Tim Lincecum has 2 CY awards, I mean to say that he has two that I believe he legitimately should have won. King Felix might have deserved to win last year, and he'll probably win this year, so maybe it's a wash. I wasn't saying that the 2 Cy Youngs make him a better pitcher, but I was objecting to the notion that a 2 time CY award winner is unequivocally not in the same tier as King Felix. Tim won those awards for a reason. He's really damn good.

The notion that Tim Lincecu, because he struggled a bit this year (which is way overblown) is no longer in the same class as Doc and Felix is ridiculous. The guy is a literally a Freak, and just like Felix, is very young. If I had to pick one to have on my team, I'd just flip a coin, to be honest.

awh: that was just one example of Valdez in the field that I just recently saw and could pinpoint.

Take me back through any other game and I'll show you him crow hopping from second base, or standing flat footed for a full second just so he can force a laser beam over to first.

Guys got a cannon, but his antics are pretty tiresome to me - especially when we have posters on here wondering if his arm is better than Jimmys after they watch GIDP do a Mitch Williams off the mound on a routine chopper.

thoughts about last nights SF game:

it was fun to see the "Burrell Shuffle" in full affect again. i missed that.

Atlanta's offense was beyond pathetic. 10 of Lincecum's 14 k's were on balls nowhere near the strike zone. Atlanta hitters were flailing away at everything and anything.

having said that, timmy was able to dial it up to 93 mph for the first 5 innings or so. his off-speed stuff has ridiculous movement, so i guess you can credit him a bit for Atlanta's futility.

CJ, who claimed that Lincecum's game was better than Doc's?

Also, I find it funny when it's Atlanta's futility being the reason that they were swinging at stuff outside of the strikezone, but when Brandon Phillips lunged at a curveball that Doc threw almost a foot outside the zone, it was just Doc's excellence.

Why are people so reticent to note that there may be pitchers in the game who are on an equal level as Roy Halladay? Lincecum was an absolute stud last night, pitching an historically great playoff game last night. Does it measure up with Doc's no-no. Not one bit, but Atlanta had two doubles last night, and still had n hope of scoring. That's how good Lincecum was.

There seems to be a consensus on this board and otherwise that SF will win this series. Remember, SF had their best pitcher going last night, ATL had their third best (I would have started Hanson or Hudson than Lowe), and SF scratched out a 1-0 victory, but in part to a bad call by an ump. This series is far from being over.

I predict the Braves will win with relative ease tonight. Something of the 6-2 flavor.

Fat - i'm not arguing that Lincecum is a great pitcher. just that Atlanta was really really awful last night. they helped him out big time. most of those k's were on pitches nowhere near the strike zone. if you disagree then you didn't watch the game.

I know there's a lot of talk about Oswalt being 23-3 against the Reds, but he hasn't beaten the Reds since 2008 (0-0 in 4 starts in 2009 and 0-2 in 2 starts in 2010).

The bigger factor is that Oswalt is 10-1 in his last 11 starts with a 1.31 ERA with a 3.6 K/BB and 8.1 K/9.

Fatalotti, I wasn't objecting to your evaluation of the pitchers in question (personally, I would take Lincecum), but merely your methodology of evaluating them - i.e. using a subjective award to make an objective evaluation.

Conshy, I watched the game last, and early on, Lincecum was struggling to find his fastball command, but was still able to strike hitters out on GREAT sliders and changeups.

He wasn't the embodiment of a perfect pitcher last night, but he was damn good nonetheless, and maybe a better lineup scratches out one run against him.

Still, Atlanta's offense may be the worst int he playoffs.

Fatalotti: It was a discussion topic on Mike&Mike this morning on ESPN radio and I saw it on First Take on ESPN.

jason.tp, OK, I understand what you mean, but I can't agree with you. We see players all the time engage is stuff like that - I'll call it "adding a little flair to their games".

Now, if you object to Valdez displaying said "flair" on the field because as a career minor leaguer he really hasn't earned the right to do so, well...you certainly are entitled to your opinion.

Mike & Mike can be fun to listen to sometimes, but often, they just argue for argument's sake.

No worries, awh. I think Lincecum is going to have a Pedro-esque career, and I look forward to watching him dominate for years (just not against the Phillies) I like them all, though, and I'm thankful that we have 3 of the top 15 pitchers in baseball on our team.

that IS a really bad Atl offense right now. i really doubt they score much tonight either.

so w/ polly back tonite, is it safe to assume shane is back leading off?

Fatalotti: Maybe people won't say there are pitchers on Roy's level because they don't believe there are pitchers on Roy's level.

And you're hard-pressed to argue that Tim Lincecum's season puts him on the same level as Roy this year.

ERA+
Lincecum 119
Halladay 165

WHIP
Lincecum 1.272
Halladay 1.041

xFIP
Lincecum 3.21
Halladay 2.92

WAR
Lincecum 5.1
Halladay 6.6

Lincecum has been one of the best pitchers in the game the last three seasons... and last night was a masterful performance. But he's not Roy's equal. Not this year.

If Polly is back in the lineup tonight:

Victorino
Polanco
Utley
Howard
Werth
Ibanez
Rollins
Ruiz
Oswalt

Salisbury tweets: "Ryan Howard effect: Down in Fla. Instructional Lg., Phils' slugging 1B prospect Jonathan Singleton has been getting a look-see in the OF"

I don't think that's a surprise. They'll need a LF in a year when Ibanez's contract expires. I'm not sure Singleton is ready by then, but let's see what he can do out there considering the Big Piece isn't going anywhere.

cj, that looks good to me.

Since WAR is being used on this site again, I have a question for all of it's purveyors:


What would the record be of a squad made entirely up of players who are all exactly at replacement level?

If Halladay and Lincecum are 6.6 and 5.1 WAR respectively, what is the expected record of 25 guys at replacement level?

81 - 81?

Besides their great seasons and great careers, the added bonus of H2O is the experience. I had no doubt that Halladay's 10 plus years in the majors would trump his lack of playoff experience and both Oswalt and Hamels have been there before. As we saw with Volquez (though not with Lincecum), pitchers with little experience often buckle under the pressure. Think also of Pettitte.

CJ, you are correct. Doc's been better this year, and the meat of Doc's career is better than Lincecum's, having played in the AL East, but if we put the pitchers into tiers, Lincecum would be in Doc's tier.

Lincecum has regained his form, and right now, he's one of only a handful of pitchers that can go toe to toe with Doc in game 1 of a series.

An all replacement team would win approx. 52-55 games a year.

Phillies have about 43 WAR overall this year, so this passes the smell test there.

Fatalotti: All you said may be true and that still doesn't make Lincecum an equal of Doc. I could probably name at least 10 pitchers who could "go toe to toe" with Doc in a single game. Lots of pitchers are capable of single dominating performances.

But you'd be hard-pressed to find a single person in baseball that would choose someone other than Doc to start Game 7 of their playoff series right now.

CJ, I certainly wouldn't choose anyone over Doc. He's the best pitcher in baseball. There has to be a "best pitcher" and he is it.

But the dropoff to guys like Lincecum, Felix, Lee, is a lot smaller, than the dropoff from those guys to guys like Liriano, Carpenter, Hamels etc.

That's all I'm saying. I just think Lincecum is one of the 5 best in the game, and I think differentiating betweent hose top 5 is foolish.

Replacement level does not mean average. A 100 OPS+ hitter and 100 ERA+ pitcher would both have positive WAR.

The only thing Lincecum beats out Halladay in is probably flowing hair and blunt rolling.

It's funny that 3 weeks ago, people were wondering whether Oswalt should be starting game 1 of the NLDS. (I was one of them)

We can be very fickle fans sometimes.

Clipper, Lincecum is a better strikeout pitcher than Doc. He had more Ks than Doc in about 40 less innings.

Not saying that makes him a better pitcher than Doc, but that's one aspect of the game that he does better than Doc.

Fat: Blasphemy.

I don't agree that Lincecum's strikeout rate is a better aspect of his game. Doc goes for the strikeouts in appropriate situations. It's no coincidence that he led the league in complete games and shutouts because he conserves his arm by getting hitters to put the ball in play.

Also, the reason I'm hyping Lincecum so much today:

1) I've been growing my hair out for a while now (planning on donating it), so I feel a bit of a connection to Lincecum

2) His new Sportscenter commercial is hilarious

3) He pitched a hell of a game last night, and I love watching pitcher's dominate in the postseason.

The Timmy Jim commercial or what ever it is? It is hysterical... Also when they won the divsion didn't he do an interview where the reporter asked if he was excited, he responded with a "F*ck yea!"?

S0/9 for the last 4 years:

Tim Lincecum

2007: 9.2
2008: 10.5
2009: 10.4
2010: 9.8
Career: 10.1

Roy Halladay

2007: 5.6
2008: 7.5
2009: 7.8
2010: 7.9
Career: 6.7

Lincecum is a better strikeout pitcher than Doc, Little Ollie. Doesn't make him a "better" pitcher. Just means that he is better at that aspect of the game than Doc.

Doc average 7.59 IP per start this year. In Lincecum's CY year, last year, he averaged 7.04 IP per start. Lincecum goes deep into games plenty.

Again, Doc's the better pitcher. Lincecume is just a tick worse.

The comments to this entry are closed.

EST. 2005

Top Stories

HardballTalk

Rotoworld News

Follow on Twitter

Follow on Facebook

Contact Weitzel

CSG