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Tuesday, September 14, 2010


That was Hamels' 4th W in his last 4 starts. I think.

Loving that 2-game cushion!

Even if the Padres win, the Phils will be 2 games up for the best record in the NL. 1 loss better than the Padres.

God, I love September!

Rox catching up in the bottom 9th. 7-6 1 out.

I'm ready for our 9 game home stand and the Braves' 9 game road trip.

We could clinch at home vs. the Mets.

Pads win.

I'm still in shock that Utley stole 2B in the 9th, taking the bat out of Howard's hands and bringing Werth to the plate. A rare Utley mental error.

Personally, I think it is only a mental error if he gets caught. By stealing the bag, he allowed Howard to bring him home with a hit had they chosen to pitch to him (however unlikely that may have been). Since he didn't get caught, good move.

Came down from PA for these last two games. Watching a game in this ballpark is surreal - like it's the 22nd inning, 3 a.m. and everyone's gone home. Except no one's here to begin with. Anyway, two good wins. Where have you gone, Cole Hamels critics?
Told ya so.

and I also acknowledge Werth's pedestrian numbers with RISP, but I still like my chances of a Werth single vs. a Howard HR (assuming that in no doubles defense Utley doesn't score from first).

Missed teh game. Might make my first trip to CBP on Monday. Anyone know what scalpers might be asking for decent seats?

use stubhub. I got decent seats for below season ticket price a couple weekends ago.

I love September, but not as much as Ryno.

.314/.375/.686, and as long as teams continue to pitch to him, he just may grab the RBI crown, despite missing 10% of the season.

While it is the Marlins, Cole looked purdy good tonight too.

Two up with our best pitcher going for us and the Braves worst pitcher going for them. Feeling good tonight.

Marlins in top 5 or 6 in NL in offense for what it's worth.

Phils now 4th in RS in the NL. I'd bet they finish 2nd behind the Reds.

Thanks, timr. Not really an option. I won't know if I can make the game until late Monday afternoon. The proverbial game time decision.

Kershaw shutting out San Fran. Pads won, Rox lost, and SF losing - all around good night for the red pinstripes.

Sophist - I think that goes back to one of my comments in a previous thread.

We're 7th in the NL in BA, just .001 ahead of the Marlins in 9th. We're 4th in Runs, 30 behind Cincy. It certainly doesn't feel like we're a team near the top of our league, to me anyhow. I'm not sure if that means that we're spoiled to have a team that has regularly finished among the top across the MLB, rubbing elbows with the top AL teams, if the NL is that pitiful this year, or if "year of the pitcher" is just something that is going to be here to stay.

Dodgers get one hit, win game.

Hitting has definitely woken up though.

Pre-All-Star, 23rd (MLB) in hits
Post-All-Star, 3rd.

Considering the basic fundamental difference between the AL and NL, that says something about our production which has significantly awoken.

Wow...I'm certainly not trying to look past this year with a great pennant race going on but...Todd Zolecki posted a link to next year's schedule. Pretty crappy ending of the season. The schedule makers certainly didn't do us any favors. The Phils will have 20 of the last 30 games on the road and finish up at NY and at Atl.

Oh man A-Train, I don't know how we will handle September 2011 withouth C____ L__!!

Did I hear LA right tonight that Werth is 1 for his last 44 with RISP and 2 outs?

Getting Rollins back will help a lot of things. First and foremost, getting Werth out of the #5 hole, behind Utley and Howard.

The Marlins are pitching a bullpen/spring training game tomorrow against Halladay. Maybe the biggest pitching mismatch on paper all year.

Then they are likely to get Marquis, Zimmermann and Maya this weekend against the Nats, who between them have won a total of 2 games in 2010.

At this point, if the Phils aren't up by at least 3 games by Monday, it will be a minor disappointment.

denny b.: Trying not to get ahead of myself, but you're right about the favorable pitching matchups. I have to imagine the Phils will be heavy favorites in each of the next 4 games. With Minor pitching tomorrow against Lannan (who has been very effective since being recalled - 3.08 ERA, 6.3 K/9, 1.6 BB/9) and the terrible-on-the-road Braves visiting the decent-at-home Mets, it's not hard to imagine Atlanta coming into town 4 games back.

Hard to believe we'd get here, but the Phils can stick a fork in the Braves next week with the 3 aces starting all 3 games.

After the Cliff Lee trade, the binocular incident, the shutout sweep in New York, all the offensive struggles and 1-0 losses, and injuries to the C, 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, CF, closer, setup man, top LH reliever, top RH middle reliever, and the projected #3, #4, and #5 starters, the Phils are a .500 finish away from matching last year's record.


I know this has been belabored here in the past...but considering Werth's numbers with RISP and 2 outs, could Charlie possibly put Ruiz in the 5-hole?

"Getting Rollins back will help a lot of things. First & foremost, getting Werth out of the #5 hole, behind Utley & Howard."

Ha! We wish. The only way Werth's not hitting 5th is if he's benched for Brown. If memory serves, Charlie had a 5-6-7 of Werth, Rollins, Ibañez when both Werth & Rollins were in the lineup, & a 5-6-7 of Rollins, Ibañez, Brown when Werth was out of the lineup. I am, of course, presuming that Charlie will not screw the proverbial baked poodle by switching J-Roll back to leadoff upon his return.

Ruiz will retire and be home having grandbabies in Panama and you will have never seen him start a game hitting in the five hole for Uncle Charlie. It will simply never happen.

At this point, I would imagine that anyone else in the lineup would be an improvement over Werth with RISP this year. There may even be a few pitchers I'd rather have up there. Other seasons, no way. But this year, it is certainly true.

It is now 100 percent mental. His numbers with the bases empty are amazing. RISP numbers are historically bad. How else can it possibly be explained.

From the Inky:

"With Roy Halladay headed to the mound Wednesday against a collection of Florida relievers (originally Josh Johnson was supposed to start, but a strained back muscle left the Marlins scrambling for a starter), the Phillies have to feel very good about the possibility of sweeping the series.

They also have to feel good about Brad Lidge, their closer who pitched for the first time in eight days. He saved the one-run victory with a 16-pitch, 1-2-3 ninth inning. His stuff was sharp, Charlie Manuel said.

They've felt good about Hamels for quite some time now. The lefthander has arguably been the best pitcher in the league since the all-star break. His 1.79 ERA in 12 starts is tops in the league. So are his 94 strikeouts.

His 9.3 strikeouts-per-nine-innings ratio is the best since his rookie season in 2006, when he fanned 9.9 batters per nine innings."

First off, I know it's good for the Phillies to not have to face Josh Johnson, but another Johnson, Halladay dual would h ave been awesome. They've faced off twice this year, if I remember correctly, and both were masterpieces (one a perfect game by Doc, the other an 8 inning shutdown of the Phils by Johnson).

Secondly, Cole Hamels has probably been the best pitcher in the NL since the ASB, and maybe even before that. He has been deadly.

He's got that fire in eyes back, and he looks like he knows that he can any batter out, in any count, with any pitch. I can't wait to see him in the postseason again.

Oh yeah, pitching between Roy Halladay and Roy Oswalt.

Gotta love this team right.


Cole Hamels (10-10, 3.06) takes the ball for the Fightin Phils against Marlins farmhand Adalberto Mendez.

Mendez has started just one major league game - and it was against the Phils on Labor Day.

In the matinee of a day-night doubleheader, Mendez bamboozed the Phils only two pitches an average fastball and a mediocre slider. The rookie allowed just 1 hit in 6 innings.

The Phils owe this punk a beat-down tonight.

Top 1st:

Realizing that Mendez is nothing special, Shane Victorino and Placido Polanco start the game by slamming a pair of meat fastballs for base hits.

Polanco sends his pitch to the warning track in left-center, scoring Victorino easily.

The Phils rally ends there as Chase Utley jams himself on a high-outside fastball, Ryan Howard is robbed on a tremendous play by Dan Uggla and Raul Ibanez dives after an outside sinker and grounds out.


Tremendous play by Dan Uggla

Bottom 1st: PHI 1 - FLA 0

With two strikes, Marlin leadoff hitter and pest Emilio Bonifacio fights off an outside change-up and is rewarded with a dunk single over 2nd.

As The World's Greatest Hitter in the World, Logan Morrison, brings his .304 batting average to the plate, Chris 'The Naked Emperor' Wheeler dons his Captian Obvious Cape.

Wheeler: "Bonifacio is fast . . .once he gets a good jump it's hard to catch him."

Pigeon: "Ferraris are fast . . .once they get a head start it's hard to catch them."

I haven't ripped the Emperor in over a week. . . it felt good.

Visit my site to check out the rest!

GTown: "I am, of course, presuming that Charlie will not screw the . . . baked poodle by switching J-Roll back to leadoff upon his return."

He probably will do that. I just hope he lets the poodle cool off before he does it.
I don't know what to say about Werth. Has a guy ever put up similar numbers from the middle of the lineup (c.600PA, 44 dbls, 21 HR) and had <70 RBI? It seems unpossible.

You know, JW, I don't think anyone here minds the above commentary for its inanity, but continuous solicitation seems ban-worthy.

From ESPN:

How Phillies starter Cole Hamels mastered the Marlins: - Fastball. Hamels struck out a season-high 13 Marlins over 6.2 IP. Eight of the punchouts came on the fastball. The Marlins were 1-16 (.063) against the heater. - What's up? Hamels held the Marlins to an 0-8 performance on pitches up in the zone. Ordinarily, the southpaw has more success down in the zone. For the season, hitters are .172 against Hamels' "down" pitches and .249 on those "up" in the zone. - Weak contact. Only one ball was classified as "well-hit".

CJ, I thought it was funny that the first really "well hit" ball came off the bat of Hanely Ramirez, against Chad Durbin in the 7th.

Thankfully it was right at Valdez.

Basically, they didn't get a good swing at a pitch until Hamels left the game...awesome.

So... the Phillies got a guy now busted for cocaine in the Cliff Lee deal. And the Mariners got a guy who faced felony charges in a rape and sodomy case who plead no contest to lesser charges in their Cliff Lee deal.

The bad part... his plea and sentence happened before the trade... but the Mariners claimed they didn't know about it:

Have any of the four players we traded to the Indians been charged with a felony yet?

H2O's last 3 starts:

23.1 IP, 1.93 ERA.

Phillies SP last 5 games:

34.1 IP, 2.10 ERA

So maybe Rube was right to trade for pitching at the deadline instead of hitting...

***Have any of the four players we traded to the Indians been charged with a felony yet?***

Depends if you consider Lou Marson's sub-Mendoza plate performance this year to be criminally bad... .197/.273/.294 in 255 PAs for a whopping .567OPS/59OPS+

"While it is the Marlins, Cole looked purdy good tonight too."

The Marlins have an above league average offense, scoring 4.60 RPG.

League average is 4.36.

Phillies score 4.70 RPG.

(Does not include last night's games).

Last night, a great pitcher utterly dominated a very good offensive lineup. The Fish hitters didn't look hopeless because they can't hit...they looked hopeless because Cole was on his game.

going back to the top of this thread, it wasn't a mental error by utley. the first three pitches to howard were in the righthanded batters box. they were gonna walk him. dumb discussion, quite frankly

2 of the last 3 games by Phillies starters have been:

1) A complete game, 3-hit shutout
2) a 7 inning, 13 strikeout domination

And we have Roy Halladay going tonight.

Given how all four are pitching right now, if He Who Shall Not Be Named were to magically appear on the Phils roster, he'd only be our #4.

Truly a golden age for Fightin' hurlers.

Blanton is pitching better than He Who Shall Not Be Named right now. So he'd be a swingman/spot starter.

Would he be coming out of the bullpen in the postseason?

Would he even make the roster?

Ha. I concede the point.

****Would he be coming out of the bullpen in the postseason?****

Well, he is LH so he could probably make a decent LOOGY out of the pen. Though, I think he has reverse splits so he might just have to be another middle reliever.

Cole Hamels last 5 starts:

35.2 IP, 4 - 0, 0.76 ERA, 21 H, 1 HR, 39 K, 7 BB, 0.785 WHIP, 1.77 BB/9, 9.84 K/9, 5.57 K/BB

.168 .224 .208 against

I'm amazed that despite this great run, Hamels still hasn't be able to get his ERA under 3. Its not as if he had a bad 1st half either.

Something to note: Hamels is in his Age 26 season...he hasn't even hit his peak yet or at best, he's just entering it. He literally, if he stays healthy, could pitch at this level or higher for the next 5-6 seasons if not longer. Hell, Halladay is 34 and still pitching at a peak level so who knows what kind of career Cole could have if he stays healthy and committed.

NEPP, Hamels had a pretty poor April (I think his ERA was over 5 for the month, in 5 starts), plus he has that game against the Braves where he gave up 3 ER in .2 IP. That game shouldn't have started because of that downpour, and he didn't have a chance to go longer than .2 IP because the game was delayed for well over an hour.

Basically, his April and that start against the Braves are keeping his ERA up above 3.

Yet with all that, he may start getting some Cy Young talk, especially since he's in the league lead for strikeouts now.


Also, NEPP, I agree about Cole's youth.

I'm more excited about Cole going forward than I am about Halladay and Oswalt.

Cole could be the man here, should the Phillies lock him up, for a LOOOONG time.

Cole Hamelsm since May 1st:

164 IP, 9-8, 2.58 ERA, 135 H, 17 HR, 165 K, 45 BB, 1.091 WHIP, 2.47 BB/9, 9.05 K/9, 3.67 K/BB

.224 .286 .360 against

"Its not as if he had a bad 1st half either."

NEPP, he had a bad April.

5.28 ERA

halladay just turned 33. not 34

****Yet with all that, he may start getting some Cy Young talk, especially since he's in the league lead for strikeouts now.****

Amazing that he's 2nd in the NL (tied with Doc) and both of them are just 8 behind Lincecum. There's a good possibility that Doc will take the lead tonight though if he has a good outing.

****Cole could be the man here, should the Phillies lock him up, for a LOOOONG time.****

I wonder how much that would cost...I would guess in the $18-20 million per range if he has another great year next year.

****NEPP, he had a bad April.****

And yet, his first half overall was pretty good despite that with a 3.78 ERA. That's all I was saying. I know he had a rough April...and that really freaking annoying rainout game that should never have started. It was pouring about 2 min into the game and everyone knew it was gonna rain. Terrible decision to let it start.

***8halladay just turned 33. not 34****

I always think he's older for some reason. And Oswalt's only 32 (Age 32 season at least as he just turned 33) but people were talking like he was 37 when we traded for him.

Cole in April:

5 GS, 2-2, 30.2 IP, 5.28 ERA, 36 SO, 10 BB, .845 OPS against, 10.57 SO/9, 2.05 HR/9

Cole since May 4th:

25 GS, 9-8, 164 IP, 2.58 ERA, 165 SO, 45 BB, .646 OPS against, 9.05 SO/9, .93 HR/9

Some people will have you believe that Cole has been just been good since the ASB (he has), but he's actually been dominant since May 4th, where he went 8+ IP, giving up 1 ER against the Cardinals.

**If we remove that rain shortened outing against the Braves, these are Cole's numbers since May 4th (even more ridiculous):

24 GS, 9-7, 163.1 IP, 2.42 ERA, 164 SO, 44 BB, ~.640 OPS against, 9.04 SO/9, .88 HR/9***

Impressive. Most impressive.

Greg Golson with a walkoff outfield assist for the Yanks, on Carl Crawford of all runners.

That can only mean one thing...

Mayberry's due for some contributing!

Cole Hamels since July 1st:

15 GS, 104.1 IP, 5-4, 79 H, 6 HR, 113 K, 24 BB, 0.987 WHIP, 2.07 BB/9, 9.75 K/9, 4.71 K/BB

.210 .268 .310 against

Two things:

One, Hamels has given up 24 HR this season, but only 6 HR since July 1. Any questions?

Two, Since July 1 Hamels has been better than Halladay in every category except two:

BB/9 and K/BB

I know that Pittsburgh and Arizona aren't big draws, but you'd think that a 1st place club like Cinci would be drawing better than they have been in mid-Sept. Talk about a pathetic's their average attendance for the homestand now:

23,332 per game over the first 5 games of the homestand...including very pathetic totals of 16K last night and 12K the night before.

Great quote from the game recap: "A night after they drew a season-low 12,061 fans, the Reds sold 16,973 tickets for one of their pet promotion games -- fans were allowed to bring dogs."

What a joke.

I agree with NEPP. We have seen Cole Hamels for a number of years and we feel that he's a grizzled veteran, but, in reality, he's still in his pitching youth. He had a great year in 2008, but struggled last year and in his early outings this year. It was probably partly due to a WS hangover and living the high upscale life. I think his ego also took some hits with Cliff Lee showing greatness in the postseason, this year with Halladay becoming the "ace" workhorse, and now with Oswalt showing the same. I think Cole has matured a whole bunch this season and it shows in his recent performance. I also think the H2O success has had an affect on Bulldog Blanton, as he's pitched much better of late. KK? Well, we can't have everything.

"At this point, if the Phils aren't up by at least 3 games by Monday, it will be a minor disappointment."

You say this even though the Phillies offense is "over-rated?"

In short, Cole Hamels has been the #1 pitcher on the Phillies staff in the 2nd half of the season.

Three Aces.

Three #1s.

On the Phillies.

Feel free to contemplate.

Right after the HWSNBN trade, Ken Rosenthal said that if Cole Hamels returned to form that "he is C____ L__."

Rosenthal was right.

Actually, assuming the season ended today, if you compare HWSNBN and Hamels through their age 26 season, it's not even close.

Hamels has been a far superior pitcher.

"Three Aces.

Three #1s.

On the Phillies."

Yet, according to Heather and others, RAJ is a "moron."

Remember when people wanted to trade Hamels for Lee?

This very year, no less....

# of WS MVPs

Hamels: 1

Just sayin'.

LF, IMHO part of Blanton's early struggles had to be injury related.

He seems to be fully healthy now, and pitching the way he pitched during that stretch last season when he was the best pitcher on the team.

The Phils still have to get through 2010, and I sure hope they win another WFC, but if the top 4 starters return fully healthy next season this team will have to be the NL, and maybe the WS, favorite going into the season.


Frankly, if Blanton just puts up an average of his '05 - '09 season (190-200 IP, 4.20 ERA), then they'll almost be able to send Paul Abbott out as the 5th starter and still win the division. :)

NEPP, I'd venture to say there are plenty of pitchers (maybe the vast majority) who would trade for the combination of Cole's success thus far, and his future potential.

I never understood why people were so baffled at how much faith the team was putting in Cole over this past offseason.

He's a very, very good pitcher, and if that curveball ever turns into a true weapon, who knows how good he can become.

Some people said, after last season, that the most simple explanation for Hamels' struggles last year was a combination of fatigue from 2008 and bad luck. Other people said that was ridiculous, that he was simply a mediocre pitcher with no toughness, and that's all he would end up being.

I say this not as a "see, we were right" kind of thing, but simply so that going forward, maybe we'll all learn to trust Occam's Razor a little bit more, and to not try and read so much into these things. Hamels had pretty good numbers last year, other than his W-L and ERA. He also should've been expected to regress some last year after his workload in 2008. Based on this, there was a simple explanation, and a pretty easy prediction that Hamels would return to his very good performance level (he's actually doing even better than expected now).

Maybe we can keep that in mind going forward.

awh: blanton is a pretty awful pitcher every year early on in the season. The only way the injury affected him this year is that it moved his struggles towards June rather than endign in May. Now he just has less time to pitch better and even his numbers.

HeavyB has a 3.50 ERA since the allstar break. I would expect him to pitch pretty awful next spring and then get back to eating innings later for the remainder of the season.

Phillies starters (including spots) have logged 942 innings in 2010.

The Phillies bullpen has logged 372.1 innings.

Phillies starters lead the league in IP/GS at 6.4.

SFG are #2 at 6.2 IP/GS.

Good post, Jack. But you forgot to add that Hamels' "decline" last year was also caused by effeminacy, being hen pecked, and owning an unmanly dog that is carried around in a back pack.

I think there were a whole lot of people who would have been more than happy to trade Cole for HWSNBN.

Just like people were over-reacting in their abandonment of Cole, I'd say that people are over-reacting now in their relatively negative assessment of HWSNBN. HWSNBN is, obviously, an extremely good pitcher, Cole has obviously been good for a fairly extended period of time, but he went through a pretty long stretch where he was entirely mediocre.

Will the Jayson Werth supporters still be out in force today? he is by far the hitter that I have the least faith in when batting with RISP, and that includes Valdez, the starting pitcher, and third base coach Sam Perlozzo...if he even looked like he was trying it would be easier to bear, how many times can he strike out on a pathetic, go to one knee swing? It's getting ridiculous at this point.

Also, here's my version of our best lineup going forward, against righties and lefties. Chances they happen? None at all.




Ibanez (actually, I wouldn't play Ibanez against lefties at all, but we all know he'll be in the lineup in the playoffs every day no matter what)

Maybe someone can explain this to me:

The NY Mess SP are tied for 4th in the NL at 6.0 IP/GS.

The NY Mess SP is gving up an averge of 3.88 RPG, tied for 4th in the NL - and ahead of the Phillies [4.05 RPG]. (I know ballpark factor has something to do with it.)

Yet, the Mess are in 4th place in the NL East and doing what has become standard operating procedure for them: fading in the 2nd half - especially September.

"owning an unmanly dog that is carried around in a back pack. "

Kutstown, that part of your sentence is true.

Cole needs to get himself a big dog, and not a walking football.

I try not to get on Werth for not hitting with RISP, but it is getting ridiculous at this point.

***Frankly, if Blanton just puts up an average of his '05 - '09 season (190-200 IP, 4.20 ERA), then they'll almost be able to send Paul Abbott out as the 5th starter and still win the division***

Hell if Blanton just pitches his norms next seasons, we could throw Bud Abbott as the 5th starter and Lou Costello as a LOOGY and still have a good shot at winning the division.

Was the dig entirely necessary, Phlipper? Yes, I've called RAJ a moron. And I still stand by that.

The Oswalt trade was necessitated by the Lee trade. No other reason.

I know that there is a certain subset of people for whom the Phillies Front Office can do no wrong, but let's be honest: the Oswalt deal was done to rectify the mistake of letting CL go in the first place.

Good for RAJ that he recognized the mistake and did something about it. However, I don't usually anoint people geniuses for the simple act of correcting a mistake that should not have been made in the first place.

I suppose depending on how rosy you want to paint the FO, your mileage may vary.

All that being said, quite frankly, I really would rather not go into this again, especially with how great the Phils are playing. I'm suprised with how great things are going you really find it necessary to take pot shots. There are much more positive things to focus on. If you want to stop the digs, I'm more than willing to stop rehashing old arguments. Deal? If not, we can continue.

Awh - but how does Cole's dog affect his pitching?

jack: Ryan Howard makes your everyday lineup vs LHP? You're getting soft!

also, Werth vsRHP: .545 SLG, vsLHP: .417

Jayson Werth is leading the league in doubles, he's leading the team in runs scored, walks and OPS, is second in homers, third in rbis and stolen bases, he has an OPS+ of 134, which, unsurprisingly, is the highest on the team.

He has been an excellent offensive contributor this year, not to mention that he hasn't gone on the DL which seems to have been a prerequisite for playing for the 2010 Phillies.

He's displayed the ability to deliver in the postseason in a sample size that is nearly the equivalent of his RISP struggles this year.

The argument about Werth this year is almost a mirror image of the debate about Cole Hamels last year. Those who choose to continue to pillory an excellent hitter because of what they perceive as "mental weakness" are free to do so, but everything else about Werth's offensive profile suggests they will be wrong.

You have to start to wonder if Francisco getting the start over Werth for a few games would be that bad. His numbers are ehhh, but I have to wonder if maybe letting him clear his head a little, and talking to UC about hitting for a few games might help. Francisco could use some ABs as well.

The offense was yet again hideous last night but, at this point, I'll take any win we can get; I'm through complaining about the process. Unless, of course, someone regards this post as a complaint, in which case I guess I'm not quite through.

cowley: i've been among the few who have bashed Werth for being a dumb player sicne Day 1, so i am far from a supporter.

But you're way overboard. I suggest you get over it before you are looking foolish when he turns it around heading towards October.

phlipper, I don't think negatively of HWSNBN.

AAMOF, if he hadn't been traded they wouldn't have traded for Oswalt, and the Big Three would be


which would, IMHO, position them just as well going into the 2010 playoffs as H20.

The BIG difference is that H20 will be back in 2011. For that, Amaro deserves a great deal of credit.

Effectively, he extended the window of opportunity for at least one more season - health permitting.

Werth is a decent hitter, that defense of him as an overall player is overblown. He had a career season last year. For a guy who has been healthy all season to not even have 70 RBI is a joke. Most of the lineup has missed large chunks of the season and yet are near or past him in RBI because they hit in the clutch. He is an above average outfielder, and his mental lapses are well documented. There is no doubt he'll be out of here after the season, even if he comes to life in the post season.

CL, even with his recent struggles, is still a 6.3 WAR pitcher. That's better by 2.0 WAR than Oswalt, 2.2 WAR than Hamels, and .1 WAR ahead of Halladay.

And that's with him being on the DL to start the season.

I think most people just underestimate how absolutely dominant he was pre-AS break due to him pitching in baseball purgatory in Seattle.

I know we're all overjoyed with how things turned out with Oswalt but anyone implying that CL would be an also-ran on our current staff is nuts. He would be a definite improvement over two of our current aces, and is neck and neck with arguably the best pitcher in baseball in Halladay.

I completely concur with Noah re: Werth and his RISP struggles. The people who insist Werth is a failure in that regard and will always be so remind me exactly of the people who said Hamels was a mediocre pitcher who we couldn't count on going forward.

At some point, Werth will begin to come through with RISP (hopefully in October). And a lot of people on here will be silent because they said things like "I have no faith in Werth hitting in a big spot." As Clout said yesterday, I have the same faith in Werth as I would any hitter with a 134 OPS+, which is to say, a lot. He's been our best overall position player this season.

Werth's contract status is an entirely separate topic on whether he'll be in Philly next year or not.

If you think that Werth being a different uniform in 2011 is the slightest indication that your view of him is shared by anyone in the phillies organization - you are completely wrong.

Heather: Nobody is implying that Lee would be an also-ran on the Phillies staff. What people are implying is that things are going really good right now, and the rotation is awesome, and given that, people are tired of talking about Cliff Lee.

'But you're way overboard. I suggest you get over it before you are looking foolish when he turns it around heading towards October.'

I hope he does turn it around for the sake of the team in October, but it wont change my mind about him as a player, and only a decent October will make more fans actually care whether he leaves next season or not. I dont even think he should be benched for anyone right now just because the team is on a roll, but he has done nothing to contribute to the Phillies' run at all. Ruiz, Utley, Howard, Victorino (esp lately) and of course the pitching are the reasons.

Sure, Jayson Werth had a career year last year,

I mean, his average is 20 points higher this year with more doubles, triples and nearly the same number of runs scored not to mention a higher on base percentage and higher slugging percentage but yeah, last year, definite career year.

Werth is a good player, no doubt, and I don't think anyone seriously thinks he will hit ~.150 with RISP for the rest of his career. That number will creep towards career norms the more he plays.

At the same time, there is something to be said about knocking in runs, and Werth, this year, has just not done that job as well as he could, and as well as the team expected.

Just as frustration about his lack of success with RISP should be tempered, because as everyone says, it will most likely even out over time, so should praise about his overall season be tempered, because, well, he's had a job to do this year in terms of knocking in runs, and he's not succeeded at an acceptable level.

Jayson Werth, along with every other player in baseball, should be praised when he succeeds, and should be criticized when he fails.

Baseball's a cruel mistress.

Kutztown, when you pitch wearing a pink backpack with a little Paris Hilton dog poking his head out, the hitter has no respect for you and hits a lot of homeruns. When you pitch and standing next to you near the mound is a big German Shephard police dog growling and staring at the batter, the batter keeps his eye on the dog and not the ball, swinging and missing and striking out a lot.

noah/jack: well said. Pretty funny how the entire thread was proof of the "joe cowley mentality" towards hamels being completely short sighted and idiotic, and minutes later its right back in action towards its next victim.

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EST. 2005

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