Game chat: Rollins, Brown back in lineup tonight

As admirably as Wilson Valdez has performed, the Phillies are hoping for a healthy and ready Jimmy Rollins for the start of the second season. With five days to play with, Rollins is back in the lead-off spot tonight when the Phillies play a meaningless game with the Nationals beginning at 7:05. Forgotten Ferrari Domonic Brown sets up in right field, Ben Francisco in center, Greg Dobbs at third and Brian Schneider behind the plate. [Jump to the newest comments]

Comments

[Max]

Hawkes, are you saying you never went to Franklin Field? Please tell all of the Troglodytes on the board which stadiums (including old and no longer existing) we should look to for inspiration and to get a better understanding of what it means to be visually sophisticated...

[Lincoln Hawkes]

Hmmm, so I guess I'd be classified as a protector of sifl (he/she/it) if I agree with that quote?

Interesting.

[Max]

rauls grandpa ";" what else would it be?

[CJ]

Lincoln: Again, reading comprehension seems to be eluding you. It has nothing to be with agreeing with her. Perhaps when I wrote, "Has nothing to do with agreeing with her," I was unclear. What I meant to say is that it has nothing to do with agreeing with her. It's just amusing that a poster feels it necessary to call others out for their tone when telling her how wrong she is. If her handle didn't suggest she was a girl, I doubt it would happen. There's plenty of people who get ridiculed for their opinion without similar "protectors" speaking up.

And in case I didn't say it, it has nothing to do with agreeing with her.

[bay_area_phan]

"'Who is Squonk's alter-ego?' Going Pigeon?"

It's funny you should say that, because I also thought they might be the same person. Come to my blog to read more . . .

[Lincoln Hawkes]

Max, if from my reply you can infer ANYTHING about whether or not I've been to Franklin Field then there is no reason for us to converse as one of us is clearly out of touch with reality.

As an aside, while I'm not a fan of standing side by side with strangers while I pee, I do actually enjoy trough and recessed floor set urinals. Bathroom quaint.

But that has nothing what so ever to do with the question at hand. Can you have modern facilities and good design co-habitate in the same building. I think you can, your question implies they can not.

[out of my league]

Re: Oakland Athletics.

If anyone is interested in why/how the franchise has found itself in the position it is currently in - consistently low attendance, consistently low payroll and lately, consistently low number of wins per season - one need to look no further than how it is that Lew Wolff (and his business consortium) wound up owning the franchise and what promises (implied or otherwise) were made to Wolff if he were to purchase the A's.

Wolff's group purchased the A's in 2005, after Selig rejected the proposal from a local/Oakland based business consortium.
Selig's claims at the time were that he didn't like the proposed revenue stream contained in the Oakland based groups offering. It is said that Selig then contacted Wolff (his college fraternity buddy) and talked to him about the possibility of purchasing the A's. Not too much time later, Wolff's group was handed the golden egg. (Should add that Wolff is a real estate developer, that's where he made his fortunes.)

Anyway, Wolff starts making his plans for building a new ballpark and the race to drive the franchise into the ground is on.

Over the next several years Wolff managed to use up whatever good will many, many, many A's fans might have had because of...

A) His dogged unwillingness to seriously consider a new ballpark location within the city of Oakland.

B) His quotes in the local media wailing about how he NEEDS a new ballpark if the A's are ever going to be competitive, and literally in the same breath saying that Oakland is basically off the table as far as sites for a new ballpark go. Oh, and PLEASE come out and support the A's! Or, Why doesn't anyone come to the games?!? (Is he flippin' serious?!?)

Then, just yesterday, we get gems like this:

From SFGATE:

...snip...

"Co-owner Lew Wolff, who was on hand for Monday's game, doesn't disagree with that, but said that even with at least $22 million coming off the books (Ben Sheets' $10 million and Eric Chavez's $12 million), the team doesn't necessarily have that amount to spend beyond next year, and he is disenchanted with one-year additions.

"The fans feel we have all this money, but it's for one year," he said. "We've tried that before."

"We do need some hitting. But we have some hitters maturing just like the pitchers have matured the past year. I don't see a lot of moves. I don't see the necessity of going out and getting someone for one year."

What about longer than that? A four- or five-year deal for the right free agent?

"We want to be careful with that," Wolff said. "I like the fact we've tied up Suzuki and Brett Anderson, but you have to be careful you don't risk the team on one person."

Seriously? In one fell swoop Wolff just about killed any hope A's fans had of signing any legit bat...doesn't like one year high dollar contracts and is scared about longer FA signings...WTF is left, LEW.

What a toad.

So, to sum things up...

In my humble opinion, the "blame" for what has been going on with the A's franchise lies at the feet of Bud Selig, Lew Wolff (and his business consortium.)

It's been disheartening and disgusting to watch what Wolff with the tacit approval of Selig has done to the A's franchise...basically holding the franchise hostage unless/until Wolff gets his new ballpark.

Sorry about the rant, but the A's are maybe the one team in baseball I know a little something about, and the whiff read of whatever ESPN or MLB article mentions about the A's low attendance, or even the local papers mentioning the low attendance, well people tend to not have a grast of the bigger picture, and it is ugly.

I'll go back to my quiet seat at the coliseum now.

[Tray]

I agree with Hawkes, by the way. Today's baseball parks are the architectural equivalent of what typographers call humanist sans serifs (the new Microsoft default, Calibri, is a good example), or Wes Anderson's movies (and the much worse movies he's influenced, like Juno), or the brushed steel/granite countertop style of interior decorating. It's the same postmodern fusion of modern style with the warm and accessible and cutesy and quirky. Superficially, the new parks are all different, i.e. different quirks, but really, they're all the same kind of quirk. They don't arise organically from their setting, they're just these pseudo-site-specific bones thrown at us. It's like the Corner Bakery in Horsham I've been in once; you go in and there's this collage of photographs of Horsham, to make you feel like it's your neighborhood Corner Bakery. So at first I was like, where'd they get all these old pictures of Horsham, this doesn't look like any Horsham I know. And then I realized it was just a series of artfully cropped and sepia-toned pictures of the new Welsh Road sign at the intersection.

[Max]

Really Tray, you've been to every MLB park and feel comfortable making that claim? And I love that you guys can take the 3 or 4 old stadiums and make them seem like a list of the most magnificent building ever constructed.

Hawkes, where is that list, still waiting oh scholarly one...

[Willard Preacher]

I really don't care whether or not "Heather" is a guy, a chick, or even an androginous Hobbit. When commentary tend to always skew to extremely polarizing viewpoints (i.e. Cholly is a moron, etc.), debate is all but BEGGED for. That's really no different than the perception clout has garnered over several years, also by posting extremely polarizing view points, albeit with pointed backhanded shots at other posters, which only further rile up the contingency. Sheer genius from a site/traffic perspective.

And if you don't agree that Heather is polarizing you either haven't read any of his/her stance on Cholly or the forever-documented goldmine of this site, posted on June 15th (yeah, that June 15th - the one just 2 months into the season) about BP's playoff odds and lambasting us all for even discussing the potential of the playoffs. He/She has since recanted and stated that those comments were made out of sheer frustration, but there's no doubt whatsoever that they were made to invoke discussion. At least that's the only way I can fathom someone writing off a team that soon.

[Lincoln Hawkes]

CJ, I tend to like your posts and agree with many of your points.

My reading comprehension is fine, thank you. I would suggest you re-read what you wrote.

"2) There's people on here who make a lot more sense than her but are savaged without a peep from these "protectors." Why is that? Hmmmm..."

Since this is critical response specifically regarding sifl's post, if I were to consider sifl's post to

a) make sense

and

b) make a "peep" by agreeing openly with that post

I would, by your definition, become sifl's protector.

Unless you draw a line between your reasoned critique of sifl's post and "savaging". Which I would consider semantics.

I wasn't actually commenting on if I agreed with his post, but rather that I found a small amount of hypocrisy in what you posted.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Tray: Nice. I tend to agree. While I like the new stadiums, there is something a little artificial about them.

Corner Bakery: Great reference, awful, generic food. Free Wifi is nice, so if you just need coffee and a place to kill time, it works.

[rauls grandpa]

Placido is supposedly headed back to Philly for an elbow check per MLBTV

[CJ]

Lincoln: If you wish to be obstinate, that's fine. You're now choosing to not understand my point. I'll consider it dropped. Thanks.

[CJ]

I'd love to hear the list of new stadiums that are so much alike.

I've been to Camden Yards, the new Busch Stadium, Minute Maid Park and Great American Ballpark. I was impressed by each of them.

I guess I'm curious about what these places should do to be "different."

The Vet, Three Rivers, Riverfront... those stadiums were the same. I guess I don't quite get how these new stadiums are also the same.

[Lincoln Hawkes]

Max, no where did I state that the few remaining classic parks are perfect or what should be striven for. I only argued what I see as faults in the execution of the current crop of faux-retro stadiums. As good as they are they could be much better.

My personal architectural tastes are eclectic. Idiosyncratic Victorian to brutalist concrete, neo-Byzantine revival to standard Modernist, my concern is not the validity of the style but the attributes of the specific building. Attributes which I find specifically lacking in many if not all modern stadiums.

Be cutesy about it all you want with your sarcastic comments, but you're free to call me an "intellectual elitist" or an "art f*g", you won't be the first and I'm sure not the last. I'm not all that sorry if I offended your populist sentiments but your wounded ego does not entitle you to demand I dance at your request. I stated my opinion, if you want to counter it with your own argument have at it.

I owe you nothing, and that's exactly what you'll get.

[clout]

Lincoln: Do you find any hypocrisy in what sifl posted?

[Lincoln Hawkes]

CJ, I could just as easily say you're being obstinate and not seeing my point. Because we clearly don't see eye to eye on this particular subject. Not a problem, as I am sure there are many things we do.

No hard feelings here, and on to other topics.

[clout]

BTW, I was a big fan of the Orioles old Memorial Stadium, whose exterior architecture could be best described as fascist heroic.

[CJ]

"whose exterior architecture could be best described as fascist heroic."

Ha!

I do have a soft spot in my heart for old Memorial Stadium. That's the first place I ever saw a live baseball game. It's one of my fondest memories.

But I'd take Camden Yards over Memorial Stadium every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[Lincoln Hawkes]

Clout, I do and that's why I didn't openly agree with him but posed it as a hypothetical in response to CJ.

In a daisy chain of equal, but absurd, behavior eventually a line is drawn. It's like two individuals shouting "nuh-uh, you are" back and forth. There are two outcomes, it goes on indefinitely, or someone says "this is stupid". The hot potato (in keeping with the children's game analogies) happened to be in CJ's hand this time.

But since this is BL, it could have been in just about anyone's hands, on any subject, at any given time. Including my own.

Just goes to show how depraved a place the interwebs truly are when this lunatic asylum is the sanest place around.

[Bubba]

My favorite out of town stadiu, that's not there anymore is Milwaukee's old County Stadium.
Might have more to do with Hank Aaron , bratwurst and beer than stadium design though.

[clout]

CJ: So would I, but I did like the old one too, far better than the cookie cutters of the 70s. Always enjoyed the trees and grass behind the fence in CF and the bushes in CBP sometimes makes me think of that.

[Lincoln Hawkes]

Memorial Stadium is definitely one I would classify as beautifully ugly. Never attended a game there though, so can't speak to the atmosphere.

[TEB 33]

The architecture of Citizens Bank Park is severly limited by it's location in the middle of acres of parking lot. The exterior looks like a surburban shopping center because it is sited exactly like a suburban shopping center.

Real old time parks were squeezed into tight urban sites and ended up with Baker Bowl right field walls and Green Monsters.
Their quaintness is part of that urban experience. Plop Fenway, Wrigley or Connie Mack in a field of parking and it will be rediculously contrived...

[clout]

Lincoln: I agree with you. I just found it amusing that sifl, 95% of whose posts are attacks on me or others (it breaks down about 93% me, 2% others), expresses horror than someone is attacking Heather.

If hypocrisy and irony are your cup of tea, Beerleaguer is the place to be.

[Lincoln Hawkes]

***If hypocrisy and irony are your cup of tea, Beerleaguer is the place to be.***

I'd buy that tee shirt from JW in a heartbeat.

[clout]

TEB 33: Excellent post.

In fairness, when fans talk about CBP being a great stadium I think they are talking about the interior. I've never heard anyone praise the park's exterior architecture.

And the old parks had weird characteristics for the exact reason you say. They were stuffed into oddly angled pieces of property bound by city streets or railroad tracks or rivers. Hence the short LF at Fenway, the "jury box" in RF at Braves Field, the narrow foul lines but ridiculously deep CF at the Polo Grounds etc.

[Lincoln Hawkes]

***Their quaintness is part of that urban experience. Plop Fenway, Wrigley or Connie Mack in a field of parking and it will be rediculously contrived...***

Very good point. It's very difficult to have effective street front presence in relation to pedestrians when you don't sit on a real street.

While I think a center city location would have been better for the Phils and for the city, I understand the practicality and efficiency of having CBP at the stadium complex. But that doesn't excuse the city from its complete lack of forethought and urban design in regards to that complex. All the more reason why Philly Live will be such an abomination. They finally begin to develop the area but continue the same mistake of plopping the attractions down in the same sea of asphalt.

[philwynk]

Old stadia with character are nice, and form fond memories, but I wonder whether we're remembering accurately.

My first baseball games were at Forbes Field in Pittsburgh. I watched Roberto Clemente, Bill Virdon, and Willie Stargell roam that massive outfield: 457 feet at dead center field, and -- get this -- a FLAG POLE ON THE FIELD, about 10' in from the deepest spot in center field. I think maybe Stargell might have had better numbers playing at The Bank, y'know? And the right field wall was wood planking, but they covered it with Styrofoam painted green after Clemente bounced off it a few times. I think they're lucky they didn't have outfielders killed out there.

Yeah, it was a park with character, and I have good memories, but I'm sure the players were happy to move to Three Rivers Stadium when they did (which has also gone the Way of All Stadia since I left Pittsburgh...)

[sifl]

Clout,

If Beerleaguer is such an awful place, you're more than free to go elsewhere.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

philwynk - the center field wall and the flagpole (or replicas thereof) are still in Oakland. I believe the flagpole on the field was a common feature at some point in time.

[philwynk]

TEB, you're absolutely right. Again with Forbes Field -- it was jammed onto the edge of Oakland, right behind the University of Pittsburgh. There was NO parking to speak of. You were lucky if you managed to find a parking spot within a mile of the place. And it was a butt-ugly building, in actual point of fact, but nobody ever thought of that because you couldn't see the damned thing. It was hidden behind University buildings.

[philwynk]

"philwynk - the center field wall and the flagpole (or replicas thereof) are still in Oakland. "

Yes, they are, but they're in a location where NOBODY, and I do mean nobody, will ever go there. They're stuck behind the David Lawrence Auditorium and the Hillman Library, off a corner of the parking lot there between the libraries. I think you really have to want to go there in order to see them. And if I went, I'd probably carry an aluminum softball bat and keep it in plain sight, if you know what I mean.

And they're not replicas -- those are the originals.

[CJ]

Yo, new thread!

[out of my league]

Also, in my opinion - and please, take it for exactly what it's worth - if the A's go to San Jose then the Rays relocation is soon to follow, most likely to somewhere in the NE...NJ or CT?

Selig has to figure out a way to handle the "territorial rights" issues, but as go the A's, so go the Rays.

[awh]

Preacher, good point about Heather and driving traffic.

Interesting that (s)he's showed up the same year JW did the Comcast deal. :)