Game chat: West Coast swing starts in San Diego

Swept out of Citizens Bank Park in the finale of their 10-game homestand, the Phillies take to the road for a three-city tour of the National League West beginning tonight with a meeting with Mat Latos (13-5, 2.33) and the league-leading Padres. First pitch is 10:05. Roy Oswalt (9-13, 3.22) counters in what should be an excellent night of pitching. Unfortunately, I can't make the same prediction about the Phillies' sputtering offense, which has scored two runs or fewer in seven of their last eight games. The Phils go with their regular line-up against the right-hander. [Jump to the newest comments] [In-Game Live!]

Comments

[Scotch Man]

Latos is hardly a slump buster. Since his last start against the Phillies where he let up 3 runs, he's gone 12 consecutive starts of letting up 2 or less.

Having said that, Oswalt has fine numbers at Petco. Should definately be a good duel. I don't look for any plausible hitting though unfortunately.

[The Truth Injection]

You guys missed the part where I typed "usually"

The study was in the American Journal of Medicine sometime int eh early 2000's. They said there are a number of factors but the greatest determinant is the number of pitches thrown. It makes sense because the most common occurrence of ligament injuries is overuse. It's the repetitive nature and torque on an arm. A guy like Strasburg who has thrown a ton of pitches in baseball AND throws as hard as he does would be a perfect storm of conditions.

[PhillyJoe]

It seems to me like the the phils have been playing down or up based on competition.

Maybe they'll treat the Padres with a little more respect and actually prepare, have good at bats, etc...

[BloodStripes]

No-one is confident on here. Atlanta is doing its best to give up the division lead and the Phils don't want it.

[philwynk]

Playing to the level of the competition is a sign of a mediocre team. The champion teams usually perform to their potential regardless of the opposition.

[BloodStripes]

Tommy Hanson sucking big time for Atlanta tonight giving up 4 home runs.

[Sophist]

Relative to the pitching population, has Strasburg thrown that many pitches? He was held under 80 per start in the minors and to around 90 per start in the majors.

[rauls grandpa]

Let my life serve as a precautionary tale to all young men. My wife set up this trip to Virginia to hang out with the B-I-L and his bizarre wife and kids, then I found out I was doing the driving. Then I found out it just so happens to be on this weekend when the teaparty people are all coming down here. So I sat in extra beltway traffic with her and our toddler. My hotel is full of southern teaparty people and I was already told at the bar that I would not be viewing the Phils and Padres, they have Foxnews on every TV this weekend. Anybody in the area know what cable channel is carrying the games here?

[aksmith]

TTI - But Strasburg has NOT thrown a ton of pitches. All by himself he invalidates the thesis.

[aksmith]

Raul's Grandpa - You poor bastard.

[BloodStripes]

Wow, what a good bar your at Raul's Grandpa. Fox news on a friday night on every telly. Place must be rockin'.

[The Truth Injection]

aksmith: He was used a ton in his high school and college years. Sometimes things can develop over time. It's not like he threw one pitch and his ligament just snapped.

Do some research on Tommy John surgery if you're interested. A lot of the stuff out there shows that overusage is what causes the injury. Most ligament injuries are overuse.

[Nolan Ryan]

The Truth Injection: Nolan Ryan strongly disagrees.

[Sophist]

TTI - was he used more in his HS and College years than the most top pitching prospects?

It may not have been one pitch, but if his mechanics are off, seems plausible that it would take fewer pitches for the damage to occur.

I'm not skeptical that overusage causes the damage in many cases, but that doesn't mean it's the main cause in every case. Don Wakamatsu was on MLBN earlier today saying that his was the result of poor throwing motion (he was a catcher).

[aksmith]

TTI - You can do all the research you want. I have researched it. This kid hasn't pitched more than any other college star pitcher. That's just nonsense. Yeah, it didn't happen on one pitch most likely. But it also could have. NO way of knowing.

What you don't seem to understand is that pitching, by its nature, is overuse. There is no pitcher that does not overuse the anatomy of the arm, forearm and shoulder too much and in ways it was not designed for. Some get lucky and can overcome bad mechanics. Others do not.

This study, by its nature, cannot be valid. There is no consensus on proper mechanics. That is all.

[Sophist]

Braves have a funny offense this month.

49 runs in 4 games
71 runs in their other 20 games (plus tonight)

[aksmith]

TTI - That study was players followed over one season. And they were between 9-14 years old. What the heck does that have to do with adults throwing baseballs? The anatomy is very different.

And they only judged mechanics by what "appeared" to be bad mechanics. No objective criteria for mechanics.

The study is of limited to zero utility for a young man like Strasburg or any other adult.

[The Truth Injection]

aksmith: Maybe you can direct me to studies you have done since you are an expert.

Like I said- most ligament injuries are from overuse. I'm not saying mechanics were innocent in the matter. They played some role sure, but the role they played is being overblown by many most likely.

Sophist: Well I don't know exactly what caused it in Strasburg's case. I'm just seeing a lot of people jump to the conclusion of it being his mechanics. My guess is people say that because they saw something on tv that said the mechanics were out of whack so it must be that. Same thing people were doing with Lincecum last thread.

The studies out there also say the torque put on an arm can cause problems but that isn't necessarily mechanical related. That can just be the amount of force with which one propels their arm. So a guy like Strasburg who throws that hard and throws that often is a perfect storm of conditions for injury.

[NEPP]

Of course, they're saying that Strasburg's injury was the result of a fluke injury occurring on one pitch, not a cumulative effect like most TJ injuries. He had a clean MRI during his DL trip right before the injury and now its all jacked up.

Sometimes guys just hurt themselves despite every precaution. I'd say that it doesn't bode well for his future health.

[The Truth Injection]

NEPP: I was being facetious in what I was saying in that "one pitch" regard.

It should also be noted that really- overhand throwing a baseball is an unnatural movement for an arm and essentially is a mechanical breakdown in and of itself. A sidearm or submarine pitcher is at less risk for Tommy John surgery because those are more natural motions for the arm to perform.

[aksmith]

TTI - Yes, most ligament injuries are from overuse. But that does not mean that most ligament tears are from overuse. That is a very different thing and when you read medical studies, you have to look for nuance.

The study you cite is the only one that comes to this conclusion and it covers one season of 9-14 year old pitchers. There are myriad studies that make just the opposite claim, that mechanics are the major factor.

I have studied it. Doctor and college pitcher. See the deal there? I have studied that particular subject a lot. You can certainly review the literature, but I would say the answer is not clear at all. It seems intuitive that either or both causes can be operative in any one pitcher. And as I wrote, you can find the one study you cite as well as many that say the opposite.

It's not easy reading the medical literature. Things are not cut and dry. I understand why you want to put faith in that study. But it's not even a longterm study. They didn't follow up a few years down the road or even one day after that particular year. So it's just as likely that every kid who got through the year with a lot of pitches was a beast and if they didn't break down that year, maybe they never did. And it's possible that the "perceived" bad mechanics kids all tore ligaments the next season.

I don't even have to be an expert or do my own studies. What I have to know is to be skeptical of medical studies, especially ones with multiple variables and some of them not quantifiable (mechanics.)

[EastFallowfield]

I liked these back to back comments...

Atlanta is doing its best to give up the division lead...

Playing to the level of the competition is a sign of a mediocre team. The champion teams usually perform to their potential regardless of the opposition.

Guess there's no division champion this year.

[GTown_Dave]

The Braves have an announced crowd of 29,722 tonight. With a first-place club. And post game fireworks. That's pathetic.

[NEPP]

The Braves haven't had respectable attendance in over 10 years. This is nothing new.

[The Truth Injection]

aksmith: There are other studies out there that point to overuse. Even James Andrews himself has said that it would appear overuse is the biggest cause. More importantly though, I'm not saying the information is complete. I simply said more literature points to it being overuse, but every one in the other thread was jumping to the conclusion of it being a mechanical issue because that is a true tangible thing they can point to, and most likely, they heard someone else say that.

I'm presenting another choice, and a choice that according to many is a more likely reasoning.

[bay_area_phan]

Watching sporadically on Gameday tonight, since these west coast start times don't work with my schedule. Something tells me I'll see a lot of "In Play Out" tonight.

[NEPP]

Twins acquire Brian Fuentes for a player to be named later...damn. That'd been a good move for us to make. He'll be setting up Matt Capps.

[DH Phils]

Can't the cause of the injury be some combination of mechanics and overuse?

[Sophist]

TTI - I wouldn't jump to either conclusion, but the Nats were very conservative with Strasburg and he had an MRI not far in advance of his start against the Phils.

[aksmith]

Yes, it certainly can. But because anatomy is not uniform and mechanics are not agreed upon, it's hard to narrow the generalities to an individual.

[The Truth Injection]

DH: Exactly my point from the start. I did add that more stuff points towards overuse but I did say that it was a combination of things most likely

[NEPP]

Jason Donald having a big night: 4 for 5 raising his avg up to .265 on the season.

[The Truth Injection]

And I don't care about the Strasburg debate anymore as the game is now starting.

[The Truth Injection]

Leadoff single- solid start

[Sophist]

Haven't seen much Phils hitting like that lately. Just going with the pitch given to you instead of trying to rip it.

[The Truth Injection]

they tried to hit and run with polanco

[Sophist]

If Strasburg was "overused" then I would think most young pitchers are overused. So the question then is why did it happen to him and not, say, Mat Latos. Strasburg has thrown 396 IP since 2007. Latos has pitched about 380 IP in that time. Was Strasburg overused?

[NEPP]

Shocked that Howard struck out.

[bay_area_phan]

A stellar AB from our $800M superstar.

[aksmith]

That was three of the more pathetic at bats I've seen in a while. And We've seen a lot of pathetic at bats.

[Sophist]

Howard went 0-3 with 2 K earlier this season against Latos when he was playing well. Wouldn't expect much from him tonight even if he weren't in a post DL funk.

[Joe Cowley]

2nd strike on Howard was about 8 inches high

[NEPP]

When you swing at everything and anything you tend to get less calls than a guy known for his pitch recognition. Howard hurts himself alot.

[Joe Cowley]

Strike 2 on Howard was 8 inches out of the zone

[curt]

Looks like Cholly is done tinkering with the lineup. Either the guys making the big bucks have something left, or they don't. We'll know in a week or so.

[The Truth Injection]

Sophist: What did I say in my 10:06 post??

[Sophist]

TTI - Let me know what else I shouldn't post about now that the game is on. Thanks.

[NEPP]

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/cache/numlocation.php-pitchSel=502009&game=gid_2010_08_27_phimlb_sdnmlb_1&batterX=4&innings=yyyyyyyyy&sp_type=1&s_type=3.gif

Howard AB...

[Dukes]

I am really sick and tired of Wheels talking about Latos and Gonzo...they're good...we get it. Now shut up.

[The Truth Injection]

Joe: It was high but there were a few calls up there which leads me to believe that will be called a strike tonight...Hopefully the hitters adjust

[Sophist]

Oswalt looking sharp.

[brother]

8 pitches, 8 strikes, 3 outs.

[bay_area_phan]

I'm confused. The first inning just ended & we're not behind yet. I must be watching the wrong game.

[Dukes]

NEPP - Wow, now that's some paint. Howard was definitely thinking he was going to get something offspeed in that at bat. Not to worry though Howard, Latos will carve you up with offspeed stuff next time.

[checkit]

Cardinals star Albert Pujols to attend Glenn Beck 'Restore Honor' rally in Washington D.C.

By Ethan Sacks
SPECIAL TO THE NEWS

Friday, August 27th 2010, 2:08 PM





St. Louis Cardinals superstar Albert Pujols is going to bat for Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin.



Albert Pujols is expected to be at the rally in spite of Beck's endorsement of the controversial Arizona immigration law.


The three-time NL MVP is joining his manager, Tony LaRussa, at the "Restore Honor" rally organized in Washington, D.C., Saturday, the St. Louis Dispatch reported.

"I made it clear when we were approached: I said, 'If it's political, I wouldn't even approach Albert with it.' I don't want to be there if it's political," La Russa told the newspaper.

Of course its not.

[Joe Cowley]

I hope so. A few more at bats like that and Howard my go medieval on his ass again...

[GTown_Dave]

b_a_p: It's a West Coast game. There's a few innings of delay in the falling behind.

[curt]

Pods announcers keep talking about a Phillie team that no longer exists. They actually fear 3 run homers happening at any moment.

[The Truth Injection]

That Ibanez at bat right there was what I was saying about the other day with swinging badly at a 3-1 pitch. Ibanez was in control and ended up getting himself out in that count.

[Joe Cowley]

Wheeler is loosening his dockers while fawning about Latos. 2 innings now.

[NEPP]

****
Of course its not.****

Exactly, what a dumbarse.

[Dukes]

checkit...i know this isn't a political blog, but thanks for posting that. That rally is a mockery and makes me sick. I hate Pujols and LaRussa even more now. That's all I'll have to say.

[NEPP]

flare hits start...woohoo.

[Joe Cowley]

Ludwick=dumbass

[checkit]

No problem guys, I saw the earlier post of the Phils fan in trouble in DC and thought I would share some baseball with him. This lurker is heading back to the game now

[Joe Cowley]

Headley=dumbass

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Oswalt-Chooch controlling the running game

[NEPP]

You DO NOT run on Carlos Ruiz.

[Sophist]

Without looking I bet Ruiz has had some trouble catching guys lately. Probably not Ludwick-Headley types, though.

[Joe Cowley]

*looking for English to Spanish function on remote to block out Wheeler*

[The Truth Injection]

Wheels needs this inning to end quickly so he can find the nearest bathroom and have a cigarette.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Gotta try and steal a bag here. Latos v. the rest of the lineup is like a hot knife through butter.

[Sophist]

Too bad he didn't go on that first pitch

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Never mind. I'll take the hit.

[NEPP]

A 2 out hit here by Utley would be nice.

[Sophist]

Some good hitting there.

[The Truth Injection]

a couple singles strung together and we have a 1-0 lead

[Joe Cowley]

I hardly see the "electric stuff" this guy has, they are either getting themselves out or hitting him. So far.

[NEPP]

A 2 out hit here by Howard would be nice.

[GTown_Dave]

NEPP: Why haven't you been making these helpful suggestions all this past week?

[Sophist]

Rollins-Utley-Polanco, just how they drew it up.

[brother]

Score!

[Marley]

Oh well. Should have been Werth scoring there out of the leadoff spot.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

ooof

[NEPP]

Good eye Ryan...good eye.

[Sophist]

You haven't noticed his 93-96 deceptive fastball with movement?

[The Truth Injection]

I think Utley's timing looks like it is coming back in a big way.

Howard is guessing right now at the plate and with Werth doing the same thing in the 5 hole it creates a bad part of the order.

[NEPP]

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/cache/numlocation.php-pitchSel=502009&game=gid_2010_08_27_phimlb_sdnmlb_1&batterX=20&innings=yyyyyyyyy&sp_type=1&s_type=1.gif

Good thing Howard adjusted and didn't just take the high strike this time around...

[Joe Cowley]

TI I agree on Utley, he's got the timing back. Ryan looking lost.

[Sophist]

I think Howard thought that 3rd strike was high. It was in nearly the same place as the one in his last AB.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

This kid looks pretty tough to hit. That fastball comes in at a pretty drastic plane and he drops that curve pretty effectively. Nice job to string a few together there.

[NEPP]

Upside is that Werth will lead off next inning so there's no pressure on him to get a hit.

[The Truth Injection]

Yorvit Torrealba can yank it

[Hugh Mulcahy]

sunuvafarginbeast

[GTown_Dave]

Roy Oswalt eschewing the lead, a la Roy Halladay.

[curt]

Well, we finally had a lead...for 3.5 minutes.

[Sophist]

Yorvit. Unstinkingbelievable.

[Sophist]

Yorvit must be a .230 hitter against everyone else cos he's probably a .440 hitter against the Phils.

[Joe Cowley]

I'm just glad they showed him dance in the dugout. Besides Wheels that was the second most irritating aspect of the game so far.

[Sophist]

Torrealba's career OPS: 709
Torrealba's career v PHI: .304/.333/.478 (.812)