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Friday, August 27, 2010

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yikes. not good.

Well, helps the Phils I suppose.

Feel terrible for the kid. This is why you have to show sustained success and durability before you can live up to the hype. As devastasting as he was to hitters, it's impossible to get major league hitters out when you're on the shelf for over a year.

That's terrible! Could this be something caused by improper mechanics? I've heard it said that young athletes sometimes learn to pitch incorrectly, leading to injuries down the road which could have been avoided with proper throwing technique. In fact, there was an 11-yr. old on my son's team a few years' back, pitching for the first time, who got a nagging feeling/discomfort. His mom said the doc or physical therapist told her he needed to correct the way he moved his arm/shoulder as he pitched. (And shut him down from pitching for the season.) The coaches are all volunteers, who get some training, but I don't know that any of them really knows the correct mechanics of pitching safely.

Or maybe this is just a fluke injury.

What a shame.

That's a d*** shame. Some guys come out of it with a faster fastball -- I doubt that's going to happen.

Dumb@$$ Dibble was calling for Stras to suck it up. Heh.

think timmy lincecum is next?

his mechanics have been doubted for years and has really regressed over his last 4 starts....although it could just be the typical bad stretch that every starter goes through at least once a year

Its getting to the point where i am starting to believe that it is anatomically impossible for a Righty to throw 100. The body just cant handle it.

Some things never change: Birds fly, waves pound the sand and cranky old men complain that everything was better in their own day.

Today's entrant is Jim Bunning who was, of course, a starting pitcher for 17 big-league seasons before becoming a Republican Senator from Kentucky. A


"reporter from Politico asked Bunning for his thoughts about Nationals right-hander Stephen Strasburg missing his start on Tuesday with shoulder soreness. Bunning grabbed his arm with a fake exclamation of pain and then decided to question Strasburg's manhood.

"Five-hundred twenty starts, I never refused the ball," Bunning said. "What a joke!"

Bunning is an awful human being. I don't know if he was always that way, or just became $hitty in old age.

Say a prayer that he recovers and makes a complete comeback. Wouldn't it be scary if he comes back better than ever about the same time Harper hits the bigs...

Personally I think Jim Bunning has a little street cred. I mean, it's not like he's some random guy.

Who knows? Maybe pitchers were tougher back in the day because the only guys who made it that far due to the sports medicine of the time were guys with perfect mechanics, freakish bodies, and exceptional ability to resist injury.

Now that modern medicine has come along, they can fix up guys who maybe don't have the body type or the mechanics to pitch for a long time in the big leagues thus leading to pitcher being more fragile generally. Who knows?

Then again, maybe Bunning is completely wrong.

But Jim Bunning was a great HOF pitcher, and if he wants to criticize a guy who hasn't pitched a complete season in the big leagues, he's earned that right.

GBrettfan, the big issues, from what I've read, with Strasburg, is that he rushes.

What this means is that his pitching arm is not in the full high cocked position when his glove side foot lands and he begins to move forward to deliver the ball. While he is rotating his torso and coming forward with the ball, he is still bring his arm up, which is putting undue stress on the shoulder and elbow.

Pitcher's who have had mechanics similar t to his are Kerry Wood, Mark Prior, Chris Carpenter...some guys who have dealt with injury troubles.

chrisoleary.com is a pretty good site where he details some of his hyotheses(and again, they are just hypotheses at this time, since the full empirical leg work hasn't been done), but he actually thinks Strasburg isn't quite as bad as some of the names above, and might be able to have a solid long career like John Smoltz, though Smoltz still dealt with injuries down the stretch.

I hope the kid recovers and gets back to doing what he was doing in his first few starts, because as much as I'd hate to see him tear apart the Phillies for years, I want to see talented players succeed in the game.

Still one of the all time great pitchers but some where along the line Jim Bunning lost the ability to be empathetic with other human beings.

Wow.

A guy has a serious injury and some senile old fart has the right to criticize him for it?

Heather, I agree to an extent. But there were also older pitchers (and athletes from all sports) who simply drove their bodies into the ground. Koufax, as legend has it, couldn't lift his elbow above his shoulder during non-pitching days.

If there are pitchers and athletes these days who want to be able to walk and move with regularity in their 50s and don't want to destroy their bodies in their 20s, who is Bunning to criticize?

I have a hunch Bunning never pitched through an injury that would require TJ surgery. Hell, if he had surgery, they could've called JB surgery.

Jim Bunning was a great pitcher. He has become a complete asshat in his old age. Just my opinion. This said it better:

"Still one of the all time great pitchers but some where along the line Jim Bunning lost the ability to be empathetic with other human beings."

Maybe he never had it? BTW, I hate seeing politics discussed on a sports blog, but after seeing his name brought up a few times, and seeing him at the ceremony for
Roy yesterday, I couldn't help it anymore.

Just getting up and around on the west coast and getting caught up. Let me see if I can summurize what I've learned in combing through the last couple of threads:

- SOME sort of change is needed for the offense, whether its in the batting order (can't say I agree since no one is really hitting) or even an OF platoon for Vic/Brown with Werth floating between CF and RF (somewhat intriguing, as I can't imagine Brown will be much worse than what Vic has provided of late)

- In addition to our Beerleaguer hatred-analogies of Heather:Cholly and Joe Crowley:Werth, we can now add "Jim":Moyer's contract extension. Good reading.

Anyone else excited that the potential sparkplug for our offense tonight may just be LF/SP extraordinaire Roy Oswalt?

Well, Bunning's comment is probably typical of a certain tough guy mindset. Dibble made similar comments about Strasburg missing a start. I don't think either guy knew at the time that it was as serious as is being reported now, i.e., requires surgery so context is important.

Someone above said righties can't throw 100. I forget if Dibble had injuries but, Ryan did it. J.R. Richard did it, too. That last name is a good cautionary tale about comments like Bunning - when a guy says he's hurting, he should get the right medical care, not B.S. about 'manning up.'

Someone sent this link to me on Wednesday:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Cz6d7KqGnCMJ:www.sportingnews.com/archives/sports2000/players/172526.html+jr+richard+pitcher&cd=2&hl=nl&ct=clnk&gl=be&client=firefox-a

I think Bunning is an ass -- show some class like Hank Aaron did amid the Bonds HR chase fiasco.

It's a shame for Strasburg and the Nats.

Good article by Posnanski in SI on the subject of young, hard-throwing pitchers who flame out. I hope Strasburg comes out better. I actually rooted for and liked the kid after all the monster hype, which says something about him and how much fun he is to watch.

http://joeposnanski.si.com/2010/08/24/all-too-familiar/

I know most posters have declared season = over ...

but are the Phillies going to claim Manny? I know we really don't need another 38 year old left hander. And the Phillies seem set on the RH DH being either Benny Frank or Sweeney...

But the Manny from 2008 who's OPS was a Bondsian 1.750 still frightens me. Even if we pretty much handled him last year...

TO have that threat on our lineup would be invaluable.

Dibble missed two full seasons late in his career with arm surgeries, according to Wikipedia.

Guess he wasn't man enough to suck it up and pitch through it.

I wonder if Dibble is gonna apologize or will he spin it like the ass that he is.

What a shame for Strasburg though.

Typically the guys that come back stronger are the ones that were pitching with a bad ligament for years and it finally goes...from the sounds of it, Strasburg wasn't doing that. He injured it on 1 pitch. Sounds like if he comes back, the best he can hope for is to regain his current velocity.

Sucks for the kid though. At least he's set for life regardless.

The Phils would never claim Manny this year because of his salary. But isn't he a FA after the season? We're going to lose Werth and, unlike many others, I do not subscribe to the view that he can be adequately replaced by yet another left-hander (in a lineup that is already horrendous against left-handed pitching). Personally, I think a guy like Manny or Magglio Ordonez would be a nice one-year stop-gap. After that, Ibanez's contract would be up & we might have the bucks to find a longer-term solution.

Tough guys are real tough until they get hurt.

Manny would have been a hell of an option in LF for us...even for the cost of $4 million (most of it deferred though) It'd be great to plug him into our lineup batting RH. Put him 5th instead of Werth. Obviously it was and is not a real option...but its fun to dream.

I have never posted here before, but have read this blog for the last two and a half years. Have found it highly enjoyable and helps to feed my passion for phils baseball. I have one demand however, please leave politics off this site!

Thought on Manny: Why doesnt he grab a 1B mitt and extend his career another 3-4 years? He could easily play at least another 3-4 years as a 1B/DH. His bat is esaily good enough.

Salary aside, our front office likes players who are model citizens & model clubhouse guys. Since Manny is a well-known pain in the ass, it's unimaginable that the Phillies would ever consider signing him.

"Keep politics off this site"

I agree, but the post about Bunning was not about politics, it was about an baseball HOFer player(who happens to be a politician) commenting on a current baseball player. Nobody (I think) went into his politics, just his being known as being a prickly sort.

Manny is a career .191 hitter at CBP. So he'd fit right in.

Ted - Yeah. Doesn't surprise me that someone like Dibble would say that. As much as I am not a fan of TMac and Sarge, both better than listening to an aging meathead like Dibble.

As for Bunning, he has a long and notable record of saying thoughtless and heartless things. Just a creep from his days as a ballplayer.

As for Bunning, no one said anything about his politics. Just that he made a foolish comment about something (Strasburg's injury) he knows nothing about.

Dibble is a major reason why I dont miss XM radio and MLB Homeplate. I got so sick of listening to him on my ride home that when I boght a new car I didnt even bother to reactivate my account.

i still hate TMac more than Dibble

Hugh Mulcahy - Thanks for the LR Richard link- I didn't remember that he had a bad stroke and all his subsequent troubles.
He sure could throw a baseball in his prime.

"...some senile old fart has the right to criticize..."

Old Phan: I completely agree with the sentiment of your post. But you need to be careful with your choice of words. Otherwise people might starting questioning you, me and clout...

Is our new Dibble related to their old Dibble? Just wondering.

i wouldn't call bill conlin THAT old.

Baez to the Dl, Bastardo got called up

Bubba - I still remember the disbelief I had when he had that stroke. I was a kid and I didn't think that a guy like that could have one. It never gets mentioned in Phillies lore but, he was the best pitcher on the Astros and, perhaps, in the league (Carlton was my favorite player and I htought Richard was better than Carlton). You can't rewrite history but, if he didn't have that stroke in 1980, he's in the rotation for that epic NLCS and who knows how it would have turned out that year. If I was the manager, though, it would have been Richard in Game 5, not Nolan Ryan.

I guess we baseball fans down here in DC have to wait another 12-18 months to watch something interesting. Outside of the 3 series a year the Phils play down here.

Not like we aren't used to waiting. I just wish there was something other than the Redskins. The Caps are OK, but the fans are annoying and really don't understand hockey. Nothing like Flyers fans.

What a shame. Godspeed, Steven!

Squonk64-Roger Bernadina Bobblehead Night doesn't excite you?

Thanks, BB. No, sorry. But "Meet Ryan Zimmerman at the 930 club" night. That might get me up, and out of my depression.

You're more likely to see Zimmerman in Clarendon...

Clarendon? All I know Clarendon for is the Arlington County Courthouse. Did he get busted for speeding on the GW Parkway?

He lives in Clarendon last I heard. Sounds like it's probably changed a lot since you've been there. I'm in Rosslyn.

Oopps... Checked the Virginia Judiciary website. Two offenses for one RYAN WALLACE ZIMMERMAN, DOB 09/28/****. Both paid, GIA on the last one. No front license plate, no VA drivers license. DAMN!! That's a pretty good catch BB.

And FWIW: Arlington County Courthouse is in the "Courthouse" section of Arlington, not Clarendon!

Jim Bunning's mechanics kept his arm healthy but severely damaged his brain.

Yeah, I know Jim Bunning is probably a total jerk as a person (never met the guy, just going by some of the things he said) but just because he's a jerk, doesn't mean that what he said might not have any validity.

I have often wondered myself if players WERE "tougher" (maybe a better word would be durable) back in the day simply because the sports medicine at the time was not that advanced and the only guys who made it to the pros were guys that had wonderful mechanics or bodies that were remarkably resistant to injury.

Any guy that was putting undue stress on his joints, ligaments, etc had probably already flamed out prior to hitting the pros (or very quickly once he did).

Just thinking out loud, but it could be possible.

Bunning is often uncomfortably blunt with his opinions on everything.

The real problem with Strasburg is his mechanics. He doesn't do everything wrong, but he does enough wrong that he landed on the DL twice in his first pro season, and possibly needs TJ surgery.

Lincecum may be injured, but if you take a close look at his mechanics, they have been pretty good in the past. Haven't watched him pitch lately, but when the Giants were in town, I heard one of their announcers say his problems started when he overhauled his mechanics. Maybe he's altering them because of pain or injury, but I don't know.

I know I will sound like a broken record, but Mike Marshall breaks down the anatomy very simply on his website. I don't agree with everything he says because he doesn't appear to take into account individual differences in anatomy that accommodate different deliveries. But the general principles of what he teaches are undeniable. And a guy like Strasburg is not nearly as bad mechanically as Prior, but he's bad enough at a high enough velocity that he's likely to be troubled repeatedly.

That's not inconceivable, Heather. Fewer teams back then also meant fewer jobs for marginal types (Strasburg's stuff isn't marginal, but his durability might be).

Marley: Bunning's mechanics were bizarre. He threw sidearm (and had a vicious slider that, coming from that angle, killed RH hitters) with such a violent action that he used to land on his hand way over toward firstbase.

Please, BB. I was not intending to argue with someone. The last thing I want to do is hijack this discussion and turn it into something--anything--that doesn't apply to Jason's topic.

That being said, I live in Leesburg. I have friends in Ballston. I worked for 15 of the past 20 years in Crystal City. My remark about getting busted for speeding on the GW Parkway was a bit of an inside joke because, as anyone who travels the GW Parkway during evening rush knows, the Park Police love to set up radar just west of VA-123, near the CIA.

I know Arlington quite well. What you call the "Courthouse" section of Arlington is simply the area close to the Courthouse Metro stop. It's still Clarendon, even though Clarendon is the name of the next Metro stop down the line. (At least Arlington County calls that area "Clarendon" in their planning documents.)

Metro named one of the stops Courthouse back, I don't know, 30 years ago? because it is on Courthouse and Clarendon Blvds. This way, they didn't have to call one stop "East Clarendon" and the other "West Clarendon," along the lines of the East and West Falls Church stops further down on the Orange line. Besides, the Clarendon stop is located centrally to what people know as Clarendon, while the stop just east is more centrally located near the courthouse.

Sorry for the NoVA geography and Metro history lesson that none of you really care about. Maybe Jason needs to build in a PM (private message) feature to these off-line discussions can take place where they need to be--off-line. I know BB is a great contributor and I really love his insights.

Jim Bunning? A Jerk? Wait a minute. Isn't that the reason why he didn't running for reelection as US Senator? That's a bit harsh, but that's what the Democrats from Kentucky would say.

In fairness to Jim Bunning, he was an outstanding pitcher who became a great Congressman, and later, a great senator. But the man is nearly 80. He deserves a pass, and our love.

aksmith--What I find interesting in this discussion pertaining to Strasburg's flawed mechanics is that I never heard one word of this before yesterday.

What's up with that?

All I ever read in the Washington Pravda and the Mooney Times were how perfect his mechanics were. MASN devoted an hour hyping Strasburg and how perfect his mechanics were. That's all Campbell and Dibble talked about during Nats telecasts--Strasburg's perfect delivery and approach to pitching. It got drilled into my head.

Now Dibble gets kicked in the a-- for making the comment any color analyst would make if they were told how perfect he was and scripted to say just that.

How bad is the sports media down here in DC, that they couldn't be more honest to the public. Does investigative reporting end at the steps of the Capital Building, or the steps of Judiciary Square?

I was dumbfounded earlier today when BB inadvertently pointed out to be that Nats 3B Ryan Zimmerman had driving offenses in Arlington County, VA. He's the team's All Star, their public face. The one guy, above Polonco, who I would live to have as my 3B on my dream team. And now I first learn about his two driving issues? I mean, if Ryan Howard or Chase Utley got caught for speeding on Kelly Drive, you don't think the Philly press would be all over it?

Squonk: Your discussion of the Metro stops in Northern Va. is the best post of the day and of far more value than any of the baseball opinions expressed here. No apology needed.

clout-- what the f--- are you doing agreeing with ME you p---- a--ed mother f-----. Don't you know this is a Philly blog. Us a-- holes have a reputation to uphold.

LOL!! Thanks, clout.

Unproven, overhyped rookie pitcher injured after a few months in the big leagues.

*yawn*

Wake me when Brien Taylor and Todd Van Poppel weigh in on the subject.

Let's compare and contrast TJ surgery and P.E.D. 's That should fill up a few hours of posting :)

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