Saturday chat: Phillies try to start a new streak

The Nationals stamped out the Phillies eight-game winning streak and spoiled Roy Oswalt's debut in a lopsided 8-1 affair Friday night. Joe Blanton (4-6, 5.85) and the Phillies look to even the score tonight at 7:05.

Beerleaguer: There's no way to sugarcoat Oswalt's first start. It stunk. Cliff Lee's debut this was not. The Nationals jumped all over Oswalt's mistakes early and often as the newly acquired right-hander hung pitch after pitch out over the plate. Chalk it up to nerves, but let's be honest here. He's going to get shellacked at a far greater frequency than someone like Lee or Halladay. Be that as it may, chances are that his next start will be terrific, and his next. So I wouldn't sweat it. Overall he allowed five runs (four earned), on seven hits, two walks with four strikeouts. Honestly, the entire team stunk last night. They couldn't solve sinkerballer Craig Stammen, who was quite good, and they butchered a couple of plays, including Carlos Ruiz's throw to nowhere that led to an unearned run. Charlie Manuel later revealed that Greg Dobbs was supposed to hold his ground and stay at third instead of charging. Not that it made much difference in the one-sided outcome.

Deadline nears: Meanwhile, we're keeping our eyes on the 4 p.m. non-waiver trade deadline. After netting Oswalt, the prevailing wisdom is that the Phillies aLre done. Infield and bullpen help may be obtainable through the waiver trade period, but in my opinion, they would be well-served to obtain help for the back of the bullpen. It's possible they just don't have the money to do it.

Happ's debut: J.A. Happ tossed six shutout innings and held Milwaukee to an 0-for-8 with runners in scoring position in his Houston debut.

Game chat: Blanton meets left-hander Ross Detwiler (0-1, 0.00) tonight. Keep your eye on Ryan Howard, who has started spinning the tires and is hitless in his last three games. 

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Comments

[Sophist]

Bruce, I don't think I understand your question. But I do think Lidge could be a serviceable reliever in the 6th or 7th inning, albeit one with a short leash (and limited use against LHB). There's no excuse for running him out there in the 9th, however. The team has no chance to come back (away anyway) and, when he's off, the team's best relievers have already been used.

[GTown_Dave]

Sophist: True. But he's been saying that about Lidge for going on 2 years now, & Lidge keeps getting sent out there to blow saves.

Hell, we can all blow off steam about what the Phillies need to do RE: Lidge, but the bottom line is the team owes him a minimum of $13 million more. Unless he retires, we're screwed.

[PhilliesDude]

Denny B. - I'm agreeing with all your posts. Get a job in the Phillies front office where you could influence Amaro!

[Heather]

I really wanted to believe Charlie Manuel wasn't a moron. A little part of me, somewhere, wanted to believe that this man had a genius that I just wasn't recognizing.

His comments about Lidge just crushed that small little hope.

[Bob]

"And Cholly, we ain't blind. Lidge's stuff is NOT there anymore. The talent that he used to have, only comes out occasionally now. That 98 MPH heater he was throwing 5 or 6 years ago? A distant memory. The devastating slider? We see it occasionally. But mostly, we see sliders that either hang or dive into the dirt. There is no command. No control. No consistancy from outing-to-outing or batter-to-batter. Even when he throws up a 0, its usually not pretty or clean and almost seems like "luck" (that's for the Happ and Kendrick detractors)."

dennyb, that's a pretty good summary IMO.

We'll try again tomorrow.

[Heather]

I would rather have Vance Worley be our closer than Brad Lidge.

[Bruce Ruffin]

raul's grandpa -- ABL (anyone but Lidge)

[Heather]

Can't Lidge do the decent thing, claim an elbow injury, and go on the DL for chrissakes?

[Heather]

Can Amaro call Manuel and tell him his a$$ is fired if he trots Lidge out there in a 1 run game in the ninth again?

I mean geez. A double on a great pitch the hitter went out and got driven in by two successive sac. flies...I can take that. The closer giving up a 3 run home run with the only out recorded being a sacrifice?

Ugly ugly ugly. Is UC watching the same baseball game as the rest of us?

[Sophist]

Lidge does not belong on the DL. His failures are simply more apparent because he is misused. He's still better than a bunch of the other options for the 'pen (at least Baez and Herndon, if not Durbin as well.

[chstk of suffrg]

From The Good Phight:

So...
2005 – Awesome
2006 – Sucks
2007 – Sucks
2008 – Awesome
2009 – Sucks
2010 – Sucks

So he should be good next year?

by ajay on Jul 31, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply

[Bruce Ruffin]

Sophist -- Again, what's so painful is Lidge's sole role as a 9th inning closer. Charlie Manual is the consummate baseball man. He has to see that Lidge is shot.

However, he keeps running him out for the 9th. As if the choice is not his.

[bay_area_phan]

I'm looking on the bright side: I added 2 years to my life by missing this game.

[Mr. Mack]

I asked the question the other night after the trade, with my tongue not in my cheek, if Oswalt is able to go 9 strong since we still don't have a closer. I clearly stand by my statement.

[Sophist]

Bruce, he didn't run Lidge out there in the save opportunity previous to tonight's. If Lidge hadn't had a 1-2-3 10th, he probably wouldn't have done it tonight either. Manuel has said one thing and intended another before. I wouldn't be surprised if nothing changes, but I think something will.

[Bruce Ruffin]

BAP -- In a word: "ugly".

[PhilliesDude]

Maybe we can use Philippe Aumont whom we got in the L** trade as our closer!

[Bruce Ruffin]

Sophist -- I'm trying to be just like you! God, I hope what you write is true.

The season's in the balance. It's beyond "early"; in the words of country singer George Jones: "Now the race is on..."

[bay_area_phan]

Realistically, there are only 2 choices: Madson or Contreras. Madson has better stuff, but has failed miserably every time he has been tried as closer. Contreras went 3 for 3 when he was used in the closer role earlier this year. I would try Contreras.

[phlipper]

Lidge has been in a "slump" since 2008 too.

denny, I hate to break it to you, but Lidge's meltdown doesn't mean you were right about Ibanez. Sorry, but the one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. You and others were wrong about Ibanez. Man up, face the music, allow yourself to be slapped around like you deserve, and get past it.

As for Lidge - I'm not going to hold it against Charlie for going this far this year with Lidge. Lidge has been inconsistent, obviously - but all-in-all not that bad, and there aren't other good options.

That said, tonight was enough. That was a positively awful performance tonight. Terrible. Lidge should sent down to the minors and given time to get himself right. Lidge has been used so inconsistently this year (between missing time and the Phillies having many games where no closer was necessary), even if he is still has the physical capability, he hasn't been able to establish a rhythm. At any rate, Lidge should not be allowed to close with the big club until he shows that he's lights out for an extended period of time in the minor leagues. Moving him to the 7th inning will do little in helping Lidge to develop a rhythm as a closer.

[Bruce Ruffin]

phlipper -- If Lidge's knee -- or elbow, or both -- is "bone on bone", he's done. Evidence points to such an injury, as the "awh what the heck" knee surgeries in '08 and again this year were downplayed.

Back in the day, the Sixers landed an ex-Detroit Piston center Jeff Ruhland. He played a dozen games and retired. He had no cartilage left in his knee or knees (can't remember; this is a baseball board). If that's indeed the case with Mr. Lidge, we need to see the FO man up, collect insurance or see that Brad retires.

[throwin up]

Lidge made $74,000 dollars tonight for losing the game. Imagine that!!!

$12mil/162 games = $74074.00 per game

[Lake Fred]

I've read all these great posts. I'm at a loss for words. I have no other great insights to add. Lidge is a done washed up pitcher.

If I was king of the Phillies, Lidge would be rehabbing in Lakewood for the rest of the year trying to recover from some mystery injury that just doesn't seem to show up on the MRI. The brain runs the body. Lidge's brain can't handle the closer role anymore.

In the offseason, Lidge'll break a leg in a pickup basketball game and that will be the end of him in Phillies pinstripes.

[dlhunter]

In the offseason, Lidge'll break a leg in a pickup basketball game and that will be the end of him in Phillies pinstripes.

Scott Palmer, disguised by a sweatshirt and sunglasses, will be spotted ditching a baseball bat and hopping into the back of van a block away, driven by the Phanatic.

[denny b.]

Phlipper,

I don't think many of us were wrong about Ibanez. His bat speed HAS slowed down. He isn't the same player anymore. He DOES have trouble catching up with a good fastball (the pitch he hit tonight? A changeup) He is having to cheat more, which causes him to get off-balance.

Can he still work a walk? Sure. Can he still hit a little bit? Sure. Could he still be an effective platoon outfielder? Absolutely. Does he still bust his ass? No question. He is still a helpful player.

He should be back in a platoon role in 2011 and still could help this team. For a 38 or 39 year old guy, that's about all you should ask for. Not many guys that old, still running around outfield's in the majors.

He's gotten old. Rollins has gotten old. Dobbs has gotten old. Lidge has gotten old. Nothing you can do about that. The game is getting younger and its tough enough to play when you are sharp and in your prime.

Ibanez's BA, even after a recent warmer spell, is still 17 points under his career average (and right now, the worst BA since 2000).

His SLG % is the worst its been since he started playing regularly.

He is on pace for the fewest HR's since 2004.

If you don't see the obvious decline in his production and skills, you aren't paying very close attention. And a few good weeks (included in a span of close to a year, where his numbers in almost every category were WAY off) is not going to change that fact.

I just hope the Phils can continue to see plenty of pitchers who don't throw hard and these teams continue to throw Raul slider's and changeups. He can still handle those pitches. Why RHP throw him anything off-speed nowadays is baffling.

[johnnysanz3]

I wanted to comment when the game ended, but got into some things until now. But really, as much as we are paying Lidge, and Charlie wants him to work it out, I just don't think they can afford to use him in situations like this anymore. Or at least in back to backs. I'm not looking at stats, but an ERA over 5, and I'm sure a high WHIP (haven't checked don't shoot me) just isn't sustainable.

I think he should be used earlier in the game.

[johnnysanz3]

Damn, I just checked out his stats from 2009, I forgot just how bad he was. 1.81 WHIP, 7.21 ERA, frickin horrendous, like not a major league player bad. I forgot just how bad it was.

[Phils_Phan]

Phillies have 10 more games with the Nationals this year, and may or not see Strasburg at all. Is that a good thing?

I dunno. I am optimistic that this team will make the playoffs - and have a good shot at winning in the playoffs with a 3 man rotation and the "mixed bag" of relievers that hopefully won't be relied upon heavily.

Who is the leader on the Phillies?

I don't find anyone that takes up the role - from the president to the gm to the manager to any of the PLAYERS. Leadership does not pitch or score runs, but it is important. I PHAIL to like this team in this aspect big time. Don't tell me Jimmy is a leader, he wouldn't swing at the first pitch of the game if he had a concept. He does love the camera though. Shane, "pie in the face" thinks he is a slugger - bat him 8th and move Ruiz up.

I wish Utley and Howard were more vocal. It doesn't seem to fit their nature. Jeez, at least they could hire Tony Robbins for a few sessions. The price would be cheap considering these guys make five figures per at bat!!! That is a sickening thought now that I think about it.

[bay_area_phan]

Lidge can still be effective at times and, considering that the Phillies have to pay him $12.5M next year, it would certainly behoove them to see if he can still contribute to the team in some non-closing role. But his days as a closer are resoundingly over. The Phillies just need to come to grips with that & quit deluding themselves into thinking they can "get him right." Get him right? For almost 2 full years, he has been about 3 standard deviations worse than the 2nd worst closer in baseball. How much evidence do they need? It's over.

I would never advocate releasing a player who is still one of the best 25 players on your roster (which Lidge is). In this case, though, I almost feel like it would be the best solution, simply to protect the Phillies from themselves. They don't seem to have what it takes to declare that Lidge's days as closer are over. And if they can't bring themselves to do that, then they WOULD be better off releasing him. The last thing we need is yet another full season of, "Lidge is our closer. We just need to get him right."

[Phils_Phan]

Savor any trade value Lidge, but not at the expense of the teams opportunities. Doesn't the team have a buy out option? Eat it if you have to. Eat it now. That contract extension was the worst move the Phillies made in many years, and not in hindsight from this reporter. There was no reason to do it. Now WE suffer. Didn't Lidge have a few terrible seasons with Houston prior to the acquisition, losing the closer role 5-7 times. What a mess now.

Grow some balls Charlie. It's your move now. We don't expect you to articulate. Just make it work. Your job is on the line, and rightfully so.

[MG]

Few thoughts;

1. So tired of watching Blanton's mediocrity this year. Tonight was yet more the same. Puts his team behind and doesn't work deep enough into a game. Not a single game where he has given up less than 3 runs. If HD had pitched even adequately, this team would either be in first place or right there.
2. Amaro could only fill 1-2 holes on this team. Not 3 or 4. Have to see how the Oswalt trade pans out.
3. Mathieson as the closer? Please.
4. As arguably the biggest critic on here of Cholly's pitching decisions/acumen to handle a staff, this was on Lidge. He was placed in a position to succeed and failed.
5. If Cholly continues to just put Lidge out there in the same fashion in 1-run games, then he is an incompetent boob. Have to see what transpires.
6. Would love to see Lidge's numbers in 1-run save opportunities but they were awful last year. I would bet his save pct. The last two years in 1-run games is below 50%.
7. For all griping about Lidge's contract, it was Gillick's doing. For a guy who is spoken about in reverent terms, he made 3 of the worst moves by the Phils in the last 25 years (Eaton signing, Garcia trade, and the Lidge extension).

[Gsl]

I like Brad Lidge but he may very well cost the team the season.

They don't have the luxury they did last year to continually run him out there and watch him lose games.

[GTown_Dave]

No buy out option for Lidge until '12, which means the Phillies are on the hook for $11.5 million in '11, & the $1.5 million buyout (of the $12.5 million he'd otherwise be due) in '12. That contract is 100% pure evil, & the blame belongs to Pat Gillick. In the end I think b_a_p is right: the Phillies ought to dump Lidge to save them from themselves. It's difficult to imagine Charlie using Lidge as anything but a Closer, & it's difficult to imagine the FO paying $13 million for a potentially useless middle reliever. The Phillies ate !enkins' salary before, & they should do the same now. That said, I seriously doubt it will happen. The ball club is too damn sentimental, & it has really hurt them on the field.

[GTown_Dave]

Zolecki has a good piece on this Lidge nonsense:

The ZoZone: Shades Of 2009

[GTown_Dave]

By the way, note how irritable Charlie comes off as sounding in the above. I get the sense he's frustrated, but feels he has no other option but to keep doing what he's been doing. Of course many of us would dispute that contention, & I might be reading him entirely wrong ... but Charlie's actions have spoken louder than his words RE: Lidge, & I don't like what they're saying.

[Marley]

Unless "washed up" is now defined as "has skills that may or may not be declining and is still a valuable member of the team," those who declared Raul Ibanez "washed up" were wrong, just like those who declared Jamie Moyer "washed up" were wrong.

As for Lidge, LA said after the game, "As J-Roll goes, so goes the offense; as Lidge goes, so goes the team," and that makes a lot of sense to me. That said, I don't know what to do about it.

On the bright side, CB Bucknor is behind home plate tomorrow.

[EastFallowfield]

The Nats are 29-22 at home, despite our memory of them being pushovers.

Everyone in the East has a winning record at home, and only the Marlins are at .500 on the road.

[Meyer]

I had a dream last night. Ruiz went out to the mound in the ninth and pitched a perfect inning to Lidge who caught without equipment.

[Mr. Mack]

Too bad Rube didn't have the 'bullets' for BP help like the Twins GM did, grabbing Matt Capps before the deadline was a deft move. As an All Star this year, Capps already saved 27 games for the lowly Nats this season. He teams up with another former Nat, Jon Rauch, who will now be the set up guy, who also has closer experience. At $3.5 mil, he is a helluve lot younger (6 yrs) and cheaper than Lidge.

Those two guys wouldn't look bad trotting in from the Phillies BP with a game on the line. Heck, at this point, The Octopus & Joe Table might be an upgrade.

[Heather]

Could someone explain to me why Mathieson absolutely could not close games for the Phillies?

I'm looking at his AAA stats and they don't scream trouble to me.

I've read here where he doesn't have much in the way of secondary pitches, but that isn't necessarily a problem for a flame thrower. Isn't a well located fastball still the best pitch in baseball? Neftali Feliz went to the All Star game as a closer who basically throws all fastballs.

I don't understand why this guy wouldn't even be worth a try.

[Heather]

I just read the Zolecki article and either UC is trying to punish R00b for not getting any bullpen help or UC is really and truly a moron. "We've been working with him for two years, so I guess we'll just continue to work with him?"

Uh, no, UC. Usually people who suck for 2 years at baseball are sent down to AAA, or are out of baseball. They're not continuing to get a starting spot at the closer position. But go ahead and tell yourself whatever you need to to make yourself feel better.

[beatboston1995]

I say they never should've gotten rid of J.A. Happ. Check out www.thefantasybaseballguru.com leave comments ask qs and follow me on Twitter at beatboston1995

[EastFallowfield]

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