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Thursday, July 29, 2010

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I might as well be the first to say it - if there are enough prospects to trade for Oswalt, why weren't there enough to keep Lee?

So the Phils raise the 2012 buyout option to $5 million? Just do it Roy O.

Two Roy's at the top of the rotation? looks good to me.

Real quick note as I'm sure the Oswalt & Lee trades will be linked.

Getting a guy like Gillies makes a guy like Gose expendable if he is truly in the deal.

It will be interesting to see what exactly is in the deal in the end.

Awesome...depending on the prospects involved.


Could be crappy depending on the prospects involved too.

"Because Lee would not sign a contract extension"? Yeah maybe Ken.

Would you trade Oswalt for Lee straight up? I wouldn't. I said at the time, and I still say that I would have kept Lee for the year and gone to war with Lee, Hamels, Doc, Happ and Blanton or Moyer. I just don't get how they have all this cash now, but not then.....

The Phils lower farms level have taken a huge step forward this year. If Singleton/Cosart/Colvin and the rest of the low-A all-stars had developed a year earlier, would the Phils have traded Lee to reseed the farm?

There's obviously a connection between the Lee deal and the Oswalt deal, and payroll, while a mystery to us, has to be an issue 2011-2012. But there is a difference between 1 year of Lee and 1.5-2.5 years of Oswalt. Oswalt's contract, while a risk, may already be below market value (look at Lackey's deal), and you simply won't find a pitcher of his quality willing to sign a 1 or 2 year contract for $16M/yr this offseason.

It really is all about what the Phils give up to me with the caveat that I have no idea what future's payroll will be.

Pretty much. It all comes down to the prospects that we're sending along with Happ.

Singleton, if true, is a steep price for Oswalt.

If Keppinger really is part of the deal, the guy has flat out hit LHP in his career. .329/.381/.477.

who would you rather have...

singleton and happ

or

ramirez, gillies and aumont?

i know my answer. cliff lee is substantially better too

Singleton? Rizzotti is now the Phils designated DH 1B.

And suddenly, we have just one lefty starter.

If this trade goes through, you guy will be hard to stop in the NL this season. Can I say 3 years running to the World Series

The Phillies strategy is to collect all the great left-handed hitters in the league.

" I just don't get how they have all this cash now, but not then.....

Posted by: Rich H"


Rich, it's simple. 75+ sellouts in a row change one's perspective a little. Better TV ratings (more TV revenue) change one's perspective.


The whole situation can be boiled down to this:

I believe Amaro when he said they needed to restock the farm, but I also believe that money played a huge factor as well.

The Phillies (Amaro, Montgomery, et. al) were (and possbibly still are) despite the moniker of baseball professionals, INCREDIBLY SHORTSIGHTED, and also undevalued their own farm system.

They must lack faith in their own system's ability to evaluate, draft and develop talent, because the farm sure looks better today than it did when they traded Lee.

Granted, some guys took huge steps forward this season, but aren't the "tools" these guys possess the reason they drafted them in the first place?

Ruben, trading Lee was a mistake. You got called on this site by multiple posters (I gave you the benefit of the doubt at the time), but MAN UP and admit you goofed.

You'll be much more respected if you do it.


Oh, and Monty, stop hiding in the owners suite.

Oh, and Rube, I'm on record here as saying you don't need to do this trade to win the division.

Your team is good enough anyway.

I would rather have Lee based on his attitude. I think Lee is hard-nosed. I think Oswalt is leary about coming to Philly based on potential scrutiny if he underperforms.

****singleton and happ

or

ramirez, gillies and aumont?
****

Singleton & Happ obviously. But we cant do that comparison as circumstances have changed.


The worry was that our farm was wiped out after losing 7 of our top 10 guys in 12 months. We had a great farm year and alot of our top ceiling guys took huge steps forward.

Great post, sophist.

It'll be quite an admission by Amaro to make the deal. I commend him on being able to admit he was wrong on Lee and move on. Halladay-Hamels-Oswalt will be quite the playoff rotation if they pull the trigger.

Cliff Lee is gone.

Roy Oswalt would make the rotation much, much better. If they're getting him for a reasonable price, I'm 100% for it.

Let's not be ingrates about this by harping too much about Lee. We loved him, it didn't work for reasons we don't know but it's reasonable to conclude it was a major mistake. Still hurts, but let's move on.

2010: We are getting Oswalt, if reports are accurate. Halladay, Hamels, Oswalt in a series; if we make it to the WFS, outfield of Werth, Vic and Brown with Ibanez as DH. If we get Utley, Jimmy and Vic all in full health and Polly, Chooch and the Big Piece keep dealing, we are stacked. Formidable, perhaps the best lineup in Phils' history.

Still, assuming they're healthy to start the season, the 2011 rotation will be:

Halladay
Oswalt
Hamels
Blanton
#5 - Kendrick, Worley, pick a name out of a hat?

speaking of Rizzotti, at what point do you consider a callup to see how far this hot streak/lightening in a bottle thing goes and enable him as an option for a bench/dh role in the playoffs if he keeps hitting. He's ridiculously on fire this season. It's just a shame he's so limited in the field.

I'm very excited assuming we don't give up a ton of prospects to get him. Our playoff rotation would be very nice, comparable to almost anyone.


Now we just have to get our offense healthy and get a closer and we will be good.

I'm a big Happ fan too. He will be missed.

I think this deal is less about Lee than it is about Happ's injury this year. Had he been healthy and performed close to last year's line (I know, I know, a big if), how different might things look? If they put him back in the rotation now, he looks to me like a 5-6 inning pitcher tops, until he gets his legs back. Oswalt seems a definite upgrade for his ability to take them into the 7th inning and beyond, which seems key with the lack of confidence Manuel has in several of his BP arms (Herndon, Baez, etc). If he pitches like he has to this point in his career, he saves wear and tear on the pen and keeps them fresher for a post-season run.

I'd rather deal prospects for a starter and the innings they provide than a back-end arm. Love to have both, but don't see that happening, as they'd have to either move Herndon or another pitcher or eat salary (Baez).

Clearly the bogus Lilly rumors shook Wade to his core.

I would slot Oswalt in as the #3 to split up the RHPs with Hamels...and I think Hamels is pitching better anyway.

i like the idea of this trade. it obviously hinges on the prospects we give up because i have a feeling ruben is about to get embarassed by what the angels gave up for haren and what the rangers gave up for cliff lee.

i hope that his option year is incentive-based and the astros pick up a nice chunk of change.

Did Wade draft Happ or was that after his time here?

Riz had four BB's last night in the hitfest.

NEPP - Happ is a Wade guy. Same year as Golson.

For what it's worth, I would much rather have Singleton in my system than Rizzotti. Even a few levels lower. But adding Oswalt would make for a playoff caliber rotation.

I guess we can consider the Millwood rumor false (wipes brow). My "inside sources" (guy who listened in radio in NYC) never called back.

The good news is Elias sports bureau called and after watching Dom play, they subtracted 10000 losses from the Phillies/Blue Jays/Phillies record.

****Riz had four BB's last night in the hitfest.****

Not surprising. If I were a AA pitcher, I wouldn't pitch to him either.


****For what it's worth, I would much rather have Singleton in my system than Rizzotti. Even a few levels lower.****

I dont think there is a single person in baseball that would rather have Rizzotti than Singleton. There's simply no comparison between the two. Rizz might be 2 levels above Singleton but he's also 6 years older.

Is he really not gonna start Dom tonight? Fool.

Let's play ball and let the chips fall where they may. This trade could really help the Phils the next two years and give new life to Oswalt. I just wonder who we gave up, but I am not going to get an ulcer over it. WELCOME DOM BROWN !!!!

The Phillies are mindful of the type of players who can win championships - Hamels, Halladay, Oswalt, Pedro, Howard, Rollins, Utley, and in their mind, Brown. I don't believe they regard Happ as that type of player. He's a nonessential component in the quest for a championship.

That's why the Lee deal and Blanton extension were so confusing to everyone. To let a player of that caliber slip away, then reward a "non-essential" like Kentucky Joe. It's like they broke their own rules and now they're trying to erase that mistake. But I also think Sophist is on to something about the farm system. In their mind, they gutted it and needed to replenish. They had one high-ceiling starter in Drabek and traded him. Now it looks like they have a couple.

There's really no mystery behind what they feel about Happ. Every action they've taken suggests they don't believe in him.

Heyman just tweeted:

he is hearing Happ Vance Worley and 2 other pitching prospects in the system!

I think that is alot to give up, anyone else?

Say we have a 1-3 of Doc, Hamels, and Oswalt.

And people are STILL going to fill thread after thread whining: "We coulda had C____ L____?"

Agree with PhillyRhetoric. People need to take into account the current circumstances of the team. When the Lee deal was made, the roster (with Halladay) seemed like a sure thing to roll in the NL east. Because of underachievement and injury, it hasn't turned out that way.

Money that mgmt had hoped to save now may have to be spent to keep the team in contention. I'm sure Phils mgmt won't admit publicly that they regret the Lee trade, but I bet they do.

...you simply won't find a pitcher of his quality willing to sign a 1 or 2 year contract for $16M/yr this offseason.

To JW/Sophist: Exactly how does Oswalt represent “quality”? Oswalt has been hurt 3 times since 2003, and has used cortisone shots this year to manage a creaky back. He’s 32 years old. Can someone please explain how this powder keg -- durability-wise, anyway -- is a solid gamble? As I stated last night, haven't the Phil's had enough with pitchers with dicey health issues?

Happ's durable today; and has regained his velocity. He just needs to sharpen up his command. Regardless, he appears to have retained his uncanny ability to get out of jams and get ML hitters out.

If Oswalt is signed we give up the 27-year old 2009 SN ROY for a $30mm question mark. Nice work.

BTW how's it feel to see Lidge stroll out there in the 9th with a 1-run lead? How can Oswalt be a priority when we can't lock down the ninth inning?

"Singleton, if true, is a steep price for Oswalt."

Do we really know that? Singleton is blocked for 6 years and how do we know that this isn't a fluke year? It could be a sell high situation.

7:37am: SI's Jon Heyman hears the Astros and Phillies were discussing Happ, righty Vance Worley, and two younger pitchers (Twitter link). Worley, a 22-year-old righty, spent most of 2010 at Double A, posting a 3.20 ERA, 6.6 K/9, and 2.9 BB/9. Baseball America ranked him 18th among Phillies prospects heading into the season, predicting a future as a back-end starter or middle reliever.

...

I like the essential vs nonessential line. Also have a feeling that after Blanton's last two thirds last year, they thought his contract may be a steal or a market value contract at worst. Like Ibanez, he had an unusual start to the season.

I'd be surprised if Colvin, May or Cosart are in this deal.

Heyman: heard #phils, #astros were discussing happ, rhp vance worley and 2 younger pitchers. could be package for #oswalt.

I'll play along with that. I'm going to bet Happ, Worley, Ramirez and Colvin.

****To JW/Sophist: Exactly how does Oswalt represent “quality”? Oswalt has been hurt 3 times since 2003, and has used cortisone shots this year to manage a creaky back. He’s 32 years old. Can someone please explain how this powder keg -- durability-wise, anyway -- is a solid gamble? As I stated last night, haven't the Phil's had enough with pitchers with dicey health issues****

He's also averaged well over 200 innings a season since then. He's one of the most durable starters in baseball despite the back issues.

**** I'm going to bet Happ, Worley, Ramirez and Colvin.****

Colvin would be the only one I'd miss from that list.

JW, I think that is entirely too much to give up, I am fine with Ramirez and Worley but not Colvin. If that is the case then the Stros would have to throw in another arm from the Pen in the deal.

Happ, Worley, Ramirez, Colvin. How does that compare to the Haren deal?

While we don't yet know the deal (if ther is a deal)I think Bruce Ruffin is on target. I think JW and Sophist are kidding themselves. This is makeup for a blunder made inteh winter. Is there any reason why we cannot be straight about this?

Once again we will be giving up the future for this year and make no mistake about it, if the phils do not get into the big show in October Oswalt will be gone. He might be gone anyway.

And by teh way all teh talk of Lee having tobe dealt becuase retaining him busts our budget, doesn't that look silly now?

Sophist, I am not an expert nor do I claim to be one, however from everything that I read it looks like the Angels laced the D'Backs in that deal.

If the deal is Happ, Worley, Ramirez and Colvin then I think we got owned by Big Ed Wade.

Happ, Worley and 2 other pitching prospects?

Depending on the "2 other pitching prospects," that sounds pretty steep. Especially if the 'Stros expect the Phils to take on all of the salary.

I believe NEPP said it earlier, so I will paraphrase -- depending on the prospects, this could be a great deal or a disaster.

NEPP -- "Past performance is no guarantee of future success." We have evidence today that Oswalt's back is deteriorating.

If/when Oswalt arrives, I hope he makes every scheduled start this year. Next year, who knows? Geezus, haven’t we seen too many pitching gambles with this and other Phillies FO?

Makes you like the Halladay deal all the more. What a freakin' steal!

MaDubbs - There is almost universal agreement that, at worst, the Angels won the deal. Many are saying they got fleeced. I was just asking for the sake of comparison.

RK, did you even read JW's post? He calls the Lee/Blanton move a "mistake"?

@RK, if the trade goes through, Oswalt is here next year too.

Also, we need to get over the Cliff Lee thing as a means of looking forward. Was the Lee deal a mistake? Absolutely. But that mistake has no impact on this decision. If you look at it that way, you're way off base.

The only thing to look at is this: Does this trade make the Phils better this year? Does this make the Phils better in the future? If question 1 is yes and 2 is no, how much of a risk are you willing to take. Looking back at Cliff Lee in regards to this deal isn't worth it.

I bet they get Keppinger as well as Oswalt, which helps. I hope they can make the move without Colvin in there.

In Re: Rizzotti v. Singleton.

Although it is largely moot because reports say "pitching prospects," I'd rather include Rizzotti at this point. They seem to have similar skill sets, but Rizzotti is 24 years old and Singleton is still 18. While he is more of a gamble at this point, Singleton fits the Phils' time frame better than Rizzotti. Unless Rizzotti can learn to play LF, where is going play? Howard isn't going anywhere, so by the time he would see big league action, he'd be 32 years old.

OK Gang, what happens this year or next year, when one of the 5 starters goes down to injury?

You lose Happ and Worley. Who's next up?

This is a terrible trade. We now have NO depth (and had very little to begin with) and no margin foe error in the starting rotation.

Any of these A baller pitchers ready to go, if they are needed in the next year? They better be.

And this team is NOT getting much better for the last 2 months of the season. It would have been with both Oswalt and Happ. Just like it was last year with Lee and Happ. We still have Blanton and Kendrick in the rotation for 2 out of every 5 days. That hasn't changed.

Rube made a bad trade with Lee and he is making another bad one with Oswalt.

Deals like this make me nervous as hell, especially with this cortisone shot chatter, and, I hated the (2d) Cliff Lee deal. But, Sophist is dead on that there is a material difference b/w keeping Lee and acquiring Oswalt and, that difference shows up in the rotation in 2011 (and poss. 2012). I'm guessing that the Phils are sweetening the buyout on the option year to try and get this deal done. Rule of thumb for the Phils - if you ain't 30+ years old, and your name's not Domonic Brown, you ain't sh!t.

dlhunter & Old Phan~

I'm someone who knows someone who is supposed to know what's going on because of his status as pro sports writer. I got a call @1:07 AM and was told that the deal is done pending Oswalt's approval & that Happ was likely involved. That's it. If you 2 two don't believe me, that's on you.

are there still rumors that keppinger is in the deal? who goes if that's the case?

So if Weitzel is correct, we would be giving up a proven major league pitcher (Happ), Ramirez, Colvin (one of the top pitching prospects in the system) and Worley.

With Cleveland, they got no major league players off the Phils roster and also threw in a major league outfielder for good measure.

For a pitcher who is 14-18 in the last 2 years and whose stuff (from those that have watched him) doesn't look right in 2010. And had a cortisone shot in ST in his back. For a 30 something year old, 5 foot 11 power pitcher?

Awful.

Is it just me or does Happ have a better chance of getting injured next year than Oswalt?

Is it just for Oswalt? Or is there another player from the Astros involved? Like a middle infielder or a 3rd baseman or even a RP.

To be clear: Payroll was the motivating factor behind dealing Lee. In hindsight, trading Lee was not the best solution to cut payroll and put the best team on the field in 2010.

Denny B.

I disagree that "this team is NOT getting much better for the last 2 months of the season" if they land Oswalt. To use BL terms, Oswalt >>> Happ. Should the Phillies continue to roll and earn a playoff berth, the rotation would be:

Halladay
Oswalt
Hamels
Blanton

If you ask me, it sure beats:

Halladay
Hamels
Happ
Blanton

But, for me, it all depends on the prospects involved.

So, I think we can safely mark down denny in the "Against" column for this one.


Is it just me or does Happ have a better chance of getting injured next year than Oswalt?

It is not just you. I think Happ is somewhat damaged goods. In my completely amateur medical opinion, he will need surgery sooner rather than later in his career.

I love this:

SI_JonHeyman: #astros told #mets since they expect oswalt to go, they want to keep myers. #mets prefer myers to lilly; neither likely

The Beerleaguer collective dislikes the trade... this means it will be a huge success!

Remember that feeling everyone had when the Phillies acquired Roy Halladay, only to find out in order to do so they had to trade Cliff Lee, even though they were two seperate deals. Only to find out that what the Phillies recieved back for the Lee trade. Well hate the break to news to everyone but the master mind behind that deal is going to be the same master mind behind this deal and that SCARES the crap out of me! He better not give up Cosart Singleton or Colvin in this deal to acquire Oswalt, I dont' care how much money Houston is willing to eat.

can we hold hands and pray this gets down without Cossart/Colvin? Happ / JC / Worley / another pitcher would be nice.

And i hate to sound like Happ sucks, because he is real cheap and is very effective when given a chance, but sorry man - you picked a bad time to get hurt.

And his upside is probably already achieved.

denny b: we don't know the particulars on the money that will be exchanged at this point. As far as the Lee deal is concerned, Amaro pulled off a spectacular deal to get Lee. No question about it.

It's always better to take the other side in the deal and see what would get them excited for a player of Oswalt's caliber. That's why I threw in Colvin. Worley is sort of like inventory, Happ is coming off injury, Ramirez is raw but talented.

If you're gonna sell, why hang onto Brett Myers? He can easily walk at the end of teh season and he likely will as he'd be in line for a multi-year deal based on his great year.

Seems kinda stupid for Myers to be "untouchable" suddenly.


My major worry on the Oswalt deal is the payroll for 2011. I just dont see them going into next year with a payroll pushing $160 million...so how's Rube gonna bring that down? Who's he gonna sell off to make Ownership happy? I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I can't wait for the discussion on here when Happ is voted into the Hall of Fame with a career 85% LOB.

oh and that he was traded. Sorry to not finish my thought there.

Billingsley,

You really think Cole is going to be kosher with being the #3 starter, after what he has done in the playoffs?

How many playoff games/World Series games have Oswalt and Halladay won? How many playoff games have they even played in?

We are dealing for a 3rd STARTER, and giving up multiple pitchers and a major league starter (who is cheap, under the age of 30 and under club control) for 2 months of a #3 starter. And with the injuries, still no guarantee this team even makes the playoffs, let alone do anything once they get there.

Its a ridiculous trade. And again, what happens in August when Blanton or Kendrick get hurt? Or next year, when Hamels needs a 15 day DL stint? Where is the next starter coming from? Kendrick isn't your security blanket now.

Drew Naylor? Drew Carpenter? Brandon Duckworth? Yohan Santana Flande? Michael Sisco? Tyson Brummett?

Again, unless they are convinced that a May or Cosart (who has barely pitched this year) can come up and step in, then what are they doing this for? You can't just go out and continue to trade for the next best fantasy league pitcher, if you think you are short. One of these days, you might just have to go with who you got. And if this goes through, we ain't got anything left close to the majors.

"If the deal is Happ, Worley, Ramirez and Colvin then I think we got owned by Big Ed Wade."

Who in that group is likely to be essential? Do any of those project to be better than Joe Blanton has been? Do we think any of these are likely to be as good as Cole Hamels? That's a probably solid ML pitcher and 3 lottery tickets.

I'm nervous about Oswalt's health but heck, it's time to roll the dice. The goal is to win the WFS, this would be a big step in that direction.

Maybe Rube is banking on another WFC to fund his team.

I love denny's consternation over losing Worley. WOrley, an afterthought who pitched an inning in relief and is suddenly untouchable for him. Worley, who had a terrible 2nd half in 09 and was the 18th best prospect in our system coming into the season.

I think we can recover from such a terrible blow to the minors.

all i got to say to r00b..

is why the hell did get rid of clee?

we had em, under our control for 1 yr, w.o depleting the pharm,


why??!!

nepp: i feel like the astros should be getting a killing on Myers. He's due about $1M and then he's a free agent with a low 3 ERA. Insane that they havent gotten a godo offer for him

Edmundo:

I agree with you in regards to the goal of winning the WFS, however, I just think it is a steep price. We will just have to wait and see what happens. It is really all about how much Houston is willing to eat, if they pay his 5 million salary this year and we have don't have the option year in 2012 then we are obviously going to have to give up a hell of alot, but if it is the other scenerio and the Astros don't eat that much money, we BETTER not give up too much.

That is one expensive rotation. My question is, gulp, what happens if Oswalt gets hurt? There's literally no one to step in.

what if halladay gets hurt? what if hamels gets hurt? what if howard gets hurt?

You're f'd, no minor league depth will save you.

Going by the rumors, if we assume Happ + Worley + 2 other pitching prospects and we get Oswalt + Keppinginger + a little salary relief in return...then I think at the very least this is a fair deal, perhaps leaning slightly toward the Phillies side.

I'm not against it, though I would be sorry to see Happ and some of our prospects go. But you have to give a little to get a little.

denny, can you read the summary:

Oswalt is owed approximately $5 million this season and is signed for $16 million next season in the last year of his deal. Plus, there's a club option for 2012 that could pay Oswalt another $16 million or a $2 million buyout.

Oswalt is not a two month rental.

****Do any of those project to be better than Joe Blanton has been? ****

Well, Colvin is a top prospect who projects a top-of-the-rotation guy...but yeah.

When did Colvin and Cosart sign? They'd probably have to be PTBNL. Colvin I think signed in August.

Billingsley,

I'll take this playoff rotation:

Halladay
Hamels
Oswalt
Happ

That beats yours.

Houston had NO other suitors (which Stark just admitted on the radio). There was NOBODY else in the running. And if they pay a few million bucks, they will have gotten EVERYTHING they demanded from Rube.

As good as Rube looked in the Lee deal with Cleveland is as bad as he may look in this deal.

Happ has to be pissed and ready to get out of here. He's been short-changed his entire career here. He was left in the minors longer then he should have been. He wasn't given a starting spot last year, passed over for Chan Ho Park. He was dangled in trades during the year last year. He was passed over in the playoffs, despite being the team's 2nd best pitcher in 2009. He has been called "lucky" and a "replaceable part", by many. And now he will be traded, while 2 inferior pitchers are left to pitch in the Phils rotation.

Hopefully Houston will value him more and trust him more then many of the folks in Philly did. I think Cholly may have been one of his few backers, when we go back and examine this. I betcha he won't be happy about this. I know that Cliff Lee guy was a big backer too. But he's gone as well.

If this deal doesn't include Cosart, Singleton or Gose, I'm liking this trade.

A rotation of Halladay, Hamels and Oswalt in a short series!?! Yes, please.

I think there's a good deal of merit to JW's comment about the Phils' FO targeting players with a particular profile. I was sure that they would reacquire Brett Myers, who is having the best year of his career, and who would likely have come cheap. But it's clear that they were not willing to go down that road again.

The interesting question is: what defines that particular profile? One thing the FO, under Amaro at least, seems to look for are players who have reputations for making continual efforts to improve, regardless of age. I'm thinking of the story about Roy Halladay's taking advice from Kyle Kendrick about how to throw a changeup, the story about Raul Ibanez's offseason use of a pitching machine placed at oblique angles to help him improve against LH pitching, Cole Hamels's and Kyle Kendrick's voluntary enrollment in Doc's and Jaime Moyer's respective schools of pitching, and Ryan Howard's work on various weaknesses in his game (first the defense, then last winter with Bonds on hitting for contact, and of course his impressive weigh loss since 2008).

A determination to constantly improve, combined with coachability, seem to be a very important character traits, in their eyes.

(It's also doubtlessly a trait valued in the players they acquire for their farm system, and this actually makes perfect sense. It seems to be a prerequisite on having a drafting strategy of taking high risk/high reward, toolsy players: if you're going to draft guys with great athletic ability but little polish, you've got to know that they're determined to get better, and that they'll be receptive to instruction.)

Colvin was a August signing...I believe Cosart was as well as an above slot signing.

I hope Ed Wade saves Rube a spot in the "organization" when these trade keep getting crappier. I really hope Ostwalt buckles down and get used to pitching here really fast. I hope he doesn't develop the dreaded Phillies related disorder "Rolen Back" here. I also hope he pitches really well and wins a ton of games and Lee wants 20 mil plus a year next year.

****Happ has to be pissed and ready to get out of here. He's been short-changed his entire career here. He was left in the minors longer then he should have been. He wasn't given a starting spot last year, passed over for Chan Ho Park. He was dangled in trades during the year last year. He was passed over in the playoffs, despite being the team's 2nd best pitcher in 2009. He has been called "lucky" and a "replaceable part", by many. And now he will be traded, while 2 inferior pitchers are left to pitch in the Phils rotation.****

Are you related to Happ? I mean, get over it, its a business and he's a nice trade piece.

It is clear that the Phillies front office does not consider J A Happ a long-term asset. I believe them to be incorrect on this point; he shows every indication of a man who will work harder and smarter when the situation gets tougher, and get himself out of tough situations. If we trade him in the national league, we'll be regretting losing him first-hand for many years to come.

Unless, of course, he gets injured and falls apart early. That's the wild card in the hand, and most likely the reason he's being traded.

It's clear that the front office is willing to trade 2013-2016 in favor of 2010-2012. That's actually smart, as success now generates income later. They figure that if they win a WFC in 2010 or 2011, they'll be able to buy help they might need in 2012-2013. I believe they're correct.

Happ will be missed. Oswalt will be appreciated.

Just as money was the primary reason they moved Lee, it will also play a huge part in this deal. If the Phils ate going to pick up the option year, then they likely want a decent amount of cash back from the Astros. If this deal doesn't get made because the Phils are harping about the $5M this year yet that Oswalt is owed then just another example of them being penny-wise, pound-wise.

Maybe Amaro wanted too many rocky and bullwinkle carttons because like the Mountie he always gets his man. Why this trade does not suprise me in the least. Have to say it is refreshing to see this from the phils. Still have long memories of the Lee Thomas days where they would try to pawn off something like acquiring Ken Howell or DAle Murphy as a big deal. Night and day.

You're all missing the point. Rube wants to wipe out our immediate minor league pitching depth. By doing so he creates a viable excuse to sign Clifton in the off season without having to admit trading him away was a mistake.

Duh.

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