Raul's days as everyday player appear to be over

That’s the suggestion as Phillies skipper Charlie Manuel will start Ben Francisco in left field against left-hander Tom Gorzelanny tonight, meaning Francisco and Raul Ibanez have platooned this entire series. Ibanez, who is hitting just .217/.270/.349 against lefties,  last started against a lefty before the break and was hitless. Francisco hasn’t fared much better, hitting .227/.292/.364 against southpaws.

Game chat: Phillies-Cubs conclude their series tonight on ESPN Sunday Night Baseball. Discuss it here. [Jump to the newest comments]

Comments

[GTown_Dave]

Jack: Eddie Oropesa has never gotten over your spurning of his ever-so-brief career in MLB.

[bake]

I thought it would be a safe one to pay attention to also, BAP. Guess not.

Now where's that 2008 retrospective DVD? I think I'll go watch that a few times (a day for the rest of the season).

[gobaystars!]

This team is like having an amazingly hot girlfriend who is always on her period. Everytime she comes around you get all excited. You're at work or whatever during the day thinking about how great the night will be but everynight you get this mess.

[Heather]

"Watching this year's team is far more painful than watching the Rico Brogna, Desi Relaford, and Randy Ready teams."

That's exactly it. If this team came into the season as the NL equivalent of the Orioles or Royals, oh well. You're gonna lose a lot of games and look terrible doing it.

But this team, who is supposedly good just goes out and seemingly sleepwalks through half their games. It's almost worse somehow. You don't have bad players trying really hard and just sucking. You have good players just not performing.

[Heather]

I think I'm going to go out and get that MLB 2010 game and just play it whenever the Phillies are on. At least that would be actual entertainment.

[gobaystars!]

Who has fallen farther this year Werth or Ruben Jr?

[MG]

Phils do have time to turn it around but with the exception of Utley now they are playing with their complete roster now. No excuses the next 2 weeks. I have a real feeling that how they play the next two weeks is in part going to determine what Amaro does.

I still think this team with the right trade would be fine in August. Thought that this team should go 10-6 after they lost the first 2 games in this series the rest of teh month given their schedule, matchups, etc. Have to see how things play out and if Amaro can make a move that rights the ship.

[Jack]

gobaystars: At least I have some faith that Werth will bounce back (if even for another team next year).

Amaro? I think this is what you get. Personally, I think we're going to look back at Amaro one day as the guy who took us from the golden age back into the dark ages.

[Meyer]

Like that.

[MG]

Forgot Happ. Still this roster is as healthy now as they have been pretty much all year.

[GTown_Dave]

I'm not worried about Howard "losing" power by trying to hit the ball the opposite way. A guy as strong is he is will get his share of HR no matter where in the park he hits it.

[gobaystars!]

I hear ya. But I think this year is closer to who Werth is than last year. As for Ruben, he is a company man. Never forget that it was an outsider who put the Phillies back on top and their homegrown guy who brought them back down.

[MG]

My a$$ Gorzelanny pitched well tonight Orel. He walked 5 guys tonight and gave up a number of hard hits balls that were right at people.

There are lots of reasons the Phils lost this game but Gorzelanny is down the list.

[Old Phan]

I cant decide which reason I like more for Werth's slump, Rube or alcohol.

[MG]

Cholly's questionable bullpen handling in the 7th comes back to really bite the Phils in the a$$.

[EastFallowfield]

How many of these runs count in the Halladay run support stat?

[Heather]

I was listening to that blowhard Colin Cowherd shortly after the Phils replaced Gillick with Amaro and Cowherd wondered if the Phils days were numbered since he felt Gillick was a great GM who was a winner pretty much everywhere he went and Amaro was unproven and a company guy.

As much as I hate Colin Cowherd, he looks prophetic.

[MG]

Ugly, ugly series. Fortunate to get out of here without being swept. See if they can manage a split vs. Cards now.

[Heather]

"Cholly's questionable bullpen handling in the 7th comes back to really bite the Phils in the a$$. "

Don't worry, though! Charlie might make boneheaded bullpen moves and leave starts who don't have their best stuff out there too long, but Charlie is a player's manager!

Whatever that means.

[MG]

It is way to early to hate on Amaro like this. Is he a dick towards anyone who questions him? Yes. Was he hired based largely on merit? Largely not.

Still, the man has been the GM for 1 1/2. People seem to forget that the opinion of Gillick in the middle of '06 was pretty dman low too.

[GTown_Dave]

MG: If it wasn't too early to praise r00b then, it's not too early to rip him now.

Also, the Phillies should consider raising their own flag after games such as this. I suggest a picture of a roadkill armadillo on a money-green background.

[Heather]

"Still, the man has been the GM for 1 1/2. People seem to forget that the opinion of Gillick in the middle of '06 was pretty dman low too."

At least Gillick had a proven track record of winning. Back to back WS with the Jays, the Marines to several ALDS and ALCS series, as well as that team that won like 116 games or something but ultimately honked in the playoffs.

[MG]

People grouse about Amaro's hiring but the more baffling ones were LaMar and Looper and installing them in two of the most critical roles in the organization. Neither one of those hirings was based on anything closely to merit especially the Looper hiring.

[Heather]

"Is he a dick towards anyone who questions him? Yes."

I don't know too many highly defensive people who are ultimately proven to be great leaders.

[MG]

Gillick also has had a track record of emptying out the cupboard and leaving when a team is out at their apex. Any CEO looks brilliant when his company is on top even though if in order to get there he did some things that didn't necessary put the organization in a longer term position to succeed.

[gobaystars!]

Charlie is only the winningest manager in Phillies history. So it must be his fault. People who harp on media created tags like "player's manager" do my head in. I know we are all know more about managing a major league game than he does, but he does get a pass to a point. Although he isn't untouchable.

[GTown_Dave]

"Gillick also has had a track record of emptying out the cupboard and leaving when a team is out at their apex."

It's a good thing r00b restocked the farm so capably, then. Not that the cupboard was/is bare, mind you. To quote the estimable Scott Proefrock, "The cupboard is not bare! There's still a lot of talent on this team!"

[MG]

Heather - No but you don't need to be abrasive, caustic leader either which Amaro is to anyone who questions his decisions.

As long as things are going well, this managerial style can work. When things hit a rough patch, employees and people will turn on a manager with this type of leadership style.

One of the biggest bullcrap myths that has given the last 25 years of so with the near deficiation of CEOs/leaders is that they need to be difficult and dismiss those under them. Research has started to emerged that debunks this trend.

[Bob]

This is how warped it has become. A small part of me is trying to rationalize that it might just be better getting blown out on a Halladay start as opposed to having him pitch his heart out effectively and lose yet another tough game with no run support. At least now they can possibly regroup without trying to shrug off a game they "should" have won but managed to lose, such as the one Blanton pitched. Talk about grabbing at straws after a couple of cold ones...

[Heather]

"Heather - No but you don't need to be abrasive, caustic leader either which Amaro is to anyone who questions his decisions.

As long as things are going well, this managerial style can work. When things hit a rough patch, employees and people will turn on a manager with this type of leadership style."

Oh, I totally agree. The guy's a dick and shows an inability to take any criticism, good or bad.

And the thing is...there's always a rough patch. So his people are always going to turn on him sometime, unless he's the next Patton of baseball GM's (which he isn't.)

[Heather]

"Charlie is only the winningest manager in Phillies history"

Ok. I did not look up the stats on that, but I will accept from you that in the time he's been the manager, he's won more games than any other Phils manager.

Is he doing a good job managing now though?

Isn't the manager's job to get the most out of his players? Has he done that this season?

If he hasn't, to what extent is it his fault since he is managing the ship?

[Iceman]

Heather: you hate Charlie. We get it. We've gotten it for weeks. He isn't going anywhere, and if you really have to ask what being a "players manager" means then there's no use discussing anything with you. Cholly is what he is and he was the same guy he is now when the Phils were in the World Series.

BAP: something tells me every day rooting for the Phils is a new low for you. But if you really think this is worse than rooting for Rico Brogna and Desi Relaford, you belong in a friggin' loony bin. If the Phils were on a 30-game win streak you'd find a way to be miserable about it. Your schtick is getting old. It's time to platoon you with Heather. We'll let her complain during away games and you can complain during home games.

[Heather]

Iceman: So only positive opinions are allowed here.

Not comments questioning our GM for questionable decisions or our manager for questionable decisions are allowed.

Got it. Check.

In positive news: Uh...wow! Roy Halladay's beard sure was groomed nicely tonight. And, uh...uhm...it sure looked like good weather out there in Chicago!

[Bob]

b_a_p: "Just because someone alleges something in the Beerleaguer comments section does not make it established fact."

Really? You're a lawyer, b_a_p. I would have thought unsubstantiated allegations on BL would have been considred pretty hard evidence in the legal world. Jeez. Who knew?

Having missed most of the game, I was scanning the comments section and caught that gem. Thanks for the much needed chuckle. Still smiling.

[gobaystars!]

I'm not sure Gillick sank franchises in the long term for some short term success.

The Blue Jays didn't fall because Gillick had sold off all the young talent. Aside from Jeff Kent who was truthfuly a very late bloomer, there wasn't a ton of talent flowing out of Toronto in the early 90s. Mark Whitten, Glenallen Hill, Steve Karsay, Darrin Jackson aren't exactly an all-star team. Signing Stewart and Molitor could have hurt them by costing draft picks but I'm not sure what the rules were back then.
I presume the rise of the yankees and red sox as economic powers combined with Canadian economic issues and an aging ballpark sank the team.

The Orioles? Well it's easy to say Angelos made that mess, but again there wasn't a ton of talent flying out the door. Garret Stephenson, Jose Bautista...? Here he signed a ton of big name vets but how much of that was Angelos? Not taking Gillick off the hook here, but that was an organizational philosophy before and after Gillick. Also they only lost one first round pick (in 96 for signing Alomar)

In Seattle, he signed a fair number of name players but pulled a good number of guys off the scrap heap. Still he largely inheritted that team and fine tuned it. That 116 win team was an example of everything going right. (lost one number 1 pick in 200 for Olerud)

The Phillies, The jury is out. He traded a few young guys. But did you really want to sit on Bourne for a few years until he became a decent but flawed CF? Did you want to wait out the growing pains with Floyd to get a hot and cold starter? It would have been fun but I think winning the world series was a little better.

[Heather]

"But did you really want to sit on Bourne for a few years until he became a decent but flawed CF? Did you want to wait out the growing pains with Floyd to get a hot and cold starter?"

I think it could also be argued that Vic is no better/no worse as a CF and Blanton not significantly worse (this year and his ab injury notwithstanding.)

[Bruce Ruffin]

Iceman -- Too bad you can't recognize a "2nd division" ball club even when the drop-dead evidence kicks you in the privates. Maybe Dave "yes we can" Cash will be resuscitated and save our season...

Heather -- I had to leave for a long time, because the FO apologists made me nauseous.

[gobaystars!]

Agreed heather, but look at who was capable of what in 08-09 and how that worked out. Since no team is going to win it every year there is an element of determining what year is your "best chance" and going for it. If it looked like 2010/2011 Bourne and Floyd were a better bet than 2008/2009 Vic and Blanton then you let them play through the growing pains. Factor in the age and health of the other parts (utley, howard, rollins...) and one decides when to go all in. It looks like 08/09 was the time to do so. Maybe if they worked it different 2010/11 could have been a back to back WFC run. Who knows?
Still, I don't think in 3-5 years we will be kicking ourselves about the talent the organization threw out the windo for a title in 08.

[raul's grandpa]

Roy calls his agent after another rough outing when he thought this year would be record breaking for him. He wants to find out if he can really be held to that contract he signed. The agent says, "I got news for you, Monty promises as long as you pitch a perfect game or no-hitter, he will guarantee the win for you."

[Iceman]

Heather: be negative all you want. Being miserable is clearly what makes you happy. But when you say something stupid, like "Cholly is a players manager, whatever that means," don't play the martyr when you get called out on it. If you're really to cut bait on Manuel after what he's done as a 'players manager' over his tenure because of two months of bad baseball from a team that's been riddled with injuries, you're just an idiot.

Bruce: I don't even understand what you're trying to convey half the time. But if it makes you feel better, keep doing what you're doing.

[RK]

Iceman: “Cholly is what he is and he was the same guy he is now when the Phils were in the World Series.”

Cholly is no more the same manager now that he was in WS than Rollins, Werth and Vic are the same players now they were back then. Its easy to look good when everything is clicking; nothing is clicking now and his lack of strategy a source of frustration in the past is hurting now.
But I agree nothing will change on that level until and unless the Phils are eliminated.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

"People grouse about Amaro's hiring but the more baffling ones were LaMar and Looper and installing them in two of the most critical roles in the organization."

MG's bizarre crusade against Looper continues.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

BOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Meyer]

More than a few Phillies will feel at home in the St.Louis area so why not start a winning streak against the Cardinals.

[fuzzycopper]

This thread has gotten ugly...

[NEPP]

Not as ugly as last night's game...but pretty ugly.

[The Truth Injection]

So today being 2 out of the Wild Card and 5.5 out of the division with 71 to play we are done again? Well that will save me some time over the next few weeks.

Some of you people are just so reactionary. It's bizarre.

And if you think it was easier to root for the Phillies teams where they were out of the race by June 1st- well then that's on you.

Also, we don't really need to fire Ruben or Charlie. I do like the fact that we are heavily questioning them though because the team is riddled with injuries but still very much in the playoff hunt.

[jr]

Maybe being a player's manager is part of the problem,too much buddy buddy stuff.

[Heather]

Charlie is great at certain aspects of managing. Charlie is terrible at other aspects of managing.

In the past, Charlie was able to succeed DESPITE what he sucked at. Now, though, those skills he's never been good at, are even more important and he is still failing at them, and failing miserably.

Although this may be a difficult concept to grasp, someone may be good at being a manager in one situation, and fail terribly in another situation.

That doesn't mean he's a good manager, or a terrible manager. It means he has a skill set that is good in certain situations, and not in others.

To some folks though, just because UC won the World Series means he will always and forever be immune to criticism. If that's the way you see it, why not just skip over all the Charlie criticism threads? You'll never ever agree with them, and they'll always make you upset.

[NEPP]

At least Howard is having a great season.

[The Truth Injection]

Heather: Skip over Charlie criticism threads? This thread devolved into bashing Charlie and it is a Game Chat wrapped inside a post about Raul Ibanez's playing days maybe being over. How would anyone have skipped over this entire thread?

I'm not saying that Charlie is a perfect manager. Clearly he isn't, and he does make some decisions that I do question. I don't question or micro-manage every single thing he does or make it a personal point to post every single thing he does. You read the threads- there are people who appear to just want to bash him for everything.

What I am saying is this- with the rash of injuries and inconsistent offense they are still right there in the playoff hunt. It certainly doesn't help the case of "Let's fire Charlie."

[Rire Fube]

They don't seem like they even want to play anymore...This team needs a shot of youth and life named Brown

[EastFallowfield]

Yo, newer thread