Game chat: Phils face tough customer in Carpenter

Making his first start against Philadelphia since 2006, right-hander Chris Carpenter (10-3, 3.16) tries to extend the Cardinals' winning streak to seven when they face Jamie Moyer (9-9, 4.88) and the dizzy Phillies. First pitch is 8:05. Moyer, who has lost his last three starts, has been crushed in his last two. The Phils try to get on track using the same lineup as last night. Before the game, Phillies GM Ruben Amaro Jr. reportedly hinted at acquiring pitching help from outside the organization. For now, Andrew Carpenter, who replaced last night's loser Kyle Kendrick on the 25-man roster, will pitch in long relief. (AP Photo) [Jump to the newest comments]

Comments

[MG]

fuzzycopper - Funny but he looks alot like the guy playing SS the past month for the Phils.

[Mr. Mack]

Can Haren or Oswalt play OF on the days they don't pitch and bat 5'th?

[johnny]

is mrs. utley included in the trade too?

[philwynk]

Oops, GTown Dave beat me to it. Well quipped, Gtown.

[Marley]

Yeah, GTown just won the thread. Bravo!

[Heather]

Victorino is making a AAAA bullpen guy look like Mariano Rivera.

[NEPP]

CSNPhilly mentions James Shields as a possibility. I could see that as a straight up (Werth for Shields with maybe us tossing in a prospect or two).

Cant say I like it much as Shields has been terrible for the past couple months. He has club options that take him through 2014.

[johnny]

goodbye jayson....stay thirsty

[MG]

G'town - Mad Dog has really been Sad Dog this year. He just seems to unravel at the flip of a switch this year.

[Sophist]

All this other random stuff aside, this game was in trouble when Moyer went out. You're not going to match Carpenter with a combination of A. Carpenter, Baez, and Herndon.

[Heather]

NEPP:

SHIELDS? SHIELDS? This is the big trade Amaro is being so smug about?

The bad thing about being a douche and refusing to tell people is that when youbuild it up, people expect better than Shields.

[Mick in Houston]

That was a painful 8+ innings

[NEPP]

Trading Werth for pitching would be one of the dumber moves we ever make. Dom Brown might be a better RF than him in a couple years but he's not gonna give us a 130 OPS+ in the final two months (at least its not very likely). And we'll still be dealing with Ibanez/Francisco in LF, a weak bullpen, huge hole at 2B and an injured JRoll.

[NEPP]

****SHIELDS? SHIELDS? This is the big trade Amaro is being so smug about?

The bad thing about being a douche and refusing to tell people is that when youbuild it up, people expect better than Shields.****

But but...his nickname is Big Game James. I'll take as evidence of his greatness over his sparkling 4.86 ERA...and league leading 21 HRs allowed (he'd clearly fit right in).

[st]

Buster_ESPN
Some of the pitchers the Phillies weren't talking about, as of early Tuesday evening: Ben Sheets, any of the Rays' pitchers and Dan Haren.
less than a minute ago

twitter

[Heather]

"Trading Werth for pitching would be one of the dumber moves we ever make."

Not if you're giving up on the season. Dom Brown would have a few more months to adjust to the big leagues so he wouldn't have such a tough learning curve next year. Plus we'd have whatever pitcher we traded for still under team control. We go into next year stronger.

[Mr. Mack]

Why has Cholly not once moved Werth from the five hole? Out of 118 NL players, he ranks 117 with RISP. THAT my friends is why they aren't scoring runs and winning more games. If they had a one legit backup OF, it might be a different season. Should never have gotten rid of So.

[The Truth Injection]

Werth for James Shields I'd be OK with but wouldn't love it as much as getting Oswalt. I would hate it if we had to add anything of value prospect wise. Shields would have the advantage of being under team control through 2014 though.

Either move is basically saying, we're going to see what happens this year. However, either move is really circling the wagons and setting us up for next year. Halladay-Hamels-Oswalt/Haren-Happ-Blanton would be the rotation next year most likely and that is pretty good (provided Blanton pitches to his ability).

We'd still have all our offense except for Werth but with Brown filling his spot. I think I'd be ok with all that.

[Bob]

Wow, RAJ might be trying to outdo himself here.

Team can't score runs = trade Werth for starting pitching.

[NEPP]

Why not bat Werth in the leadoff position?

He takes a bunch of pitches
He's got decent speed and great OBP skills
He's hitting very well with the bases empty

perfect leadoff material right now.

[Heather]

"Why not bat Werth in the leadoff position?

He takes a bunch of pitches
He's got decent speed and great OBP skills
He's hitting very well with the bases empty

perfect leadoff material right now.
"

Isn't that the kind of outside the box thinking that UC hates?

[Sophist]

NEPP - Werth is gone after this year. Considering the current state of the Phils (record, injuries, Brown in AAA), trading him now for an upgrade somewhere else (pitching), allowing Brown to get called up, and then having that pitcher under control for the next couple of years isn't a dumb move.

This isn't quitting on this year, because you'll still have that pitcher and be able to call up Brown, but it is prioritizing 2011-2013 which is probably wise at this point.

[NEPP]

****We'd still have all our offense except for Werth but with Brown filling his spot. I think I'd be ok with all that. ****

Pretty much. Its an outright raising of the white flag for 2010 though. Long-term, its probably smarter to build a team around Shields as your #3 rather than Oswalt as your #2...if for no other reason than their respective salaries and probable trade cost.

[NEPP]

****This isn't quitting on this year, because you'll still have that pitcher and be able to call up Brown, but it is prioritizing 2011-2013 which is probably wise at this point. ****

I know...and I'll probably be able to rationalize it all better tomorrow after I've vented and slept on it. Just really pissed about how this season has gone so far.

[The Truth Injection]

That should've been Oswalt/Shields.

I don't think it's quite bailing on this year yet either. It's hoping that Brown is a competent replacement and hoping Utley comes back and we are in striking distance.

[GBrettfan]

The positives to the Phillies' down year:

Come October, we'll get more sleep, have more money in our pockets from not buying tickets or sweatshirts, and won't freeze our buns off attending a postseason game. We can watch the playoffs and WS without free of nervousness, simply appreciating good baseball objectively. Baserunners left stranded won't drive us crazy. And when the closer starts warming up, we won't begin holding our breath. And finally, we won't get our hopes up for a trophy, so we won't risk the disappointment of coming so close only to fail.

Do these all pale in comparison to the thrills of a postseason run? Absolutely.

[MG]

NEPP - How is trading two months of Werth and 2 picks that won't help this team for at least at 2 years for a key starter who will next year necessarily be a bad trade again?

[johnny]

nepp- can he pop up the 2-0 pitch, though?

[GBrettfan]

I can't seem to self-edit anymore! Strike the word "without" after WS, and it will actually make sense.

[Bay Slugga]

This season is lost. If Werth nets you starting pitching beyond 2010 then you have to do it.

[NEPP]

****9:52pm: The Phillies were not talking about Ben Sheets, Dan Haren or any of the Rays pitchers as of early tonight, according to Olney (via Twitter).****

So, its Oswalt then? He's the only other "major" starter out there.

[MG]

Trading Werth for a starter this team now desperately needs and calling up the hottest prospect in MLB is 'giving up on the season?'

[NEPP]

****NEPP - How is trading two months of Werth and 2 picks that won't help this team for at least at 2 years for a key starter who will next year necessarily be a bad trade again?****

Dont expect rational thought out of me tonight...I'll be more rational tomorrow.

[Old Phan]

It's impossible to judge a deal that hasn't happened or might not happen, so I'll reserve judgment until that moment, but in theory, I'd rather not see the Phils get rid of a bat like Werth's, slumping or not.

[Iceman]

NEPP: really? If the Phils deal Werth (won't be here next year) for Oswalt (guaranteeing him being here the rest of this season and all of next season), it would be stupid? Are you kidding? It would be a freaking steal. We're not getting anything for Werth, Werth is (let's face it) not helping the offense and hasn't for a while (especially with RISP), and the season is probably lost with or without him.

Getting that kind of a return for a lame duck RF- being able to bring up Dom Brown now and give him 2+ months of MLB pitching, and getting ROY OSWALT to bolster your rotation for 2011- is hardly 'stupid.' 'Stupid' would be passing on that deal, keeping Werth and wasting the two draft picks we get for him on 'toolsy' prospects while rolling out a rotation sporting Moyer and Blanton again next year.

Then again, if Shields is the guy, it's hardly worthy of much excitement. But I wouldn't even call that 'stupid.'

[NEPP]

MG, do you really see Dom Brown giving us an .873 OPS (Werth's current production) the rest of the way? I think he'll be respectable but I dont think he's gonna kill it right away...very few prospects do.

Trading Werth for pitching hurts the offense that is already scuffling. Maybe it wakes them up like the Abreu deal did but it will hurt us overall on the hitting side of things...will the gain of a 3rd legit starter overcome that loss? Who knows...I would think its more of a 2011-2012 move than a 2 month surge move.

[JB]

If RAJ pulls off getting Oswalt and Brown gets promoted his approval ratings will surpass Obama for a few days.

Happ I would imagine is going to be part of the deal, maybe a Jiwan James to be included with another P prospect plus Kendrick.

[NEPP]

****Happ I would imagine is going to be part of the deal, maybe a Jiwan James to be included with another P prospect plus Kendrick.****

That's an awful lot if we're taking on all of Oswalt's salary.

[The Truth Injection]

The new update on mlbtr says that the Phillies have shopped Happ but have talked about Werth more in recent days.

I'd be against trading Happ because he is a good left-handed starter and he is cheap for this team for a few years yet.

[NEPP]

MLBTradeRumors has us shopping Happ...how much value does he have coming off injury all year? Kinda a sell low situation with him.

[NEPP]

10:06pm: Ed Price of AOL FanHouse hears that the Astros may be close to presenting Oswalt with a trade scenario for him to consider (Twitter link). There's no guarantee that Oswalt would accept a deal to Philly

[MG]

NEPP - What I do know is that this team desperately needs a starter now this year (and next year too), that Werth hasn't hit the past 6 weeks, and the status quo on this team will likely lead to being home in Oct.

[Heather]

Carlos Santana (Indians' catcher) has an OPS of .998

Wasn't Dom Brown ranked higher than he was? I think so, but I could be wrong.

Just sayin', it's not impossible.

[cjp]

S'posedly Happ's in play now, too: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/07/phillies-discussing-major-trade.html

[NEPP]

Heather, its not impossible but its also hardly a guarantee. Go check out how Mike Stanton and Ike Davis are doing.

Its a good possibility that Dom Brown comes in and does well but he likely won't give us a 130 OPS+ right off the bat. He's definitely an elite prospect though.

[raul's grandpa]

Man, I remember the good old days, when the Phillies made a swan dive in July and the only ones I could bitch to about it was the guys down at the bar and the few dopes who bothered to listen to the game the night before when i got to work in the morning. My wife is way happier I can log on here and feel some bitchin' commiseration.
Overall, do you think us die hard fans who watch every crap team they ever put out there are healthier discussing this stuff or just giving up and doing lawn work for the rest of the season?

[NEPP]

Oswalt would push our payroll to $151 million next year guaranteed to just 16 players. So we'd be looking at a ceiling in the $160 million range minimum.

[RK]

This post All star break is beginning to remind me of 1964. SO embarrasing.

[JB]

NEPP - Maybe the Phils through in Baez then.

[NEPP]

10:17pm: Amaro tells Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports that the Phils are "not close" to making a deal, though the team is talking to many other clubs on many fronts (Twitter link). The D'Backs, A's and Astros all tell Rosenthal that they aren't close to a deal.

[Old Phan]

That's a high ceiling. I can't imagine the FO would be thrilled with that.

[JB]

Sorry, obviously throw. Time to go to bed.

[NEPP]

Yup, bed time.

[Marley]

I have nothing valuable to add to the trade talk, so I'll just send some good vibes Moyer's way.

Get well, young man. We could use that arm of yours.

[denny b.]

Happ is not going anywhere but up to Philly this weekend.

How badly is Moyer hurt? Considering how old he is, any sort of injury will be magnified about 5 times.

This might be it for him in Philly.

Pigs win 4-2 in Indy.

Quiet nights for both Brown and Mayberry. Brown drew a walk and RFD got hit with a pitch. Brown has a mature approach at the plate. Very patient and doesn't expand the zone very often. Mayberry hit a 400 foot blast to CF that was caught. He looked very comfortable up there too. Nice to see him being 11 for 11 in SB's for the season too. Probably would have a few more, had he not had the knee problem early in the year (and not missed so many games because of injury).

Brown is still a project in the OF, but he just about made a diving catch in the OF that most OF's would have never gotten to. Has a cannon for an arm too, which he never got to show off. And he covers so much ground with his stride. He looks more like he'll probably end up in RF to me. But he'll be one of those guys you just want in your lineup wherever you can put him.

Mathieson is impressive to watch. That heater is the real deal. He got a ton of swing-and-misses on it. Was using his slider some too. Very good command and doesn't mess around when he gets 2 strikes on a guy.

I think all of those guys mentioned should be in a big league uniform NOW, preferably in Philadelphia. But considering how shallow the rest of the talent is at Lehigh, at least they have those guys right now to help them be respectable.

[JBird]

NEPP - Ike Davis isn't nearly the prospect Brown is and Stanton, while probably a beter prospect, is rawer than Brown, and everyone knew it when hey called him up. I'm not saying Dom Brown will hit like Werth, I just object to the comps.

[GTown_Dave]

Ryan Lawrence: "Half hour meeting after game in Charlie's office with Dubee and Ruben. Charlie: 'We have a plan.'"

Matt Gelb: "Happ will be rejoining the Phillies, Charlie said."

[Old Phan]

"Charlie: 'We have a plan.'"

I wonder if it involves one-way tickets somewhere.

[Old Phan]

Cholly also says Young Jamie is going on the DL. That really stinks.

[Heather]

Gtown: The ass in me says, "What, they didn't have a plan all the other days, they were just winging it?"

Actually that probably explains a few things.

:-)

[raul's grandpa]

"Son, one of us is getting traded to Houston and it ain't me"
-UC

[GTown_Dave]

Heather: Charlie should have followed up "We have a plan" by saying "I just choose not to tell you". r00b would have been impressed w/ his leadership acumen.

And all of the reports I'm seeing say Moyer's injury is basically the same as Happ's. So Jamie should be back in a matter of "weeks, not months", right?

[denny b.]

The Plan?

DFA Baez.
DL Moyer.
Send Carpenter back to AAA.

Trade for a starter by Saturday.
Recall Happ. He starts Sunday.
Recall Kendrick (to pitch as the long-man in the pen, which currently has no long-man)

Tomorrow Rube needs to sit down in a 30 minute meeting with Cholly and Milt and figure out a plan for this punchless, listless offense. That plan should NOT be, "wait another month or so and hope Utley comes back and hope some of these other guys hit". That ain't gonna get it done this year.

At least the Mets are falling off the face of the earth too. Shocking that their fade, has co-incided with Beltran coming back. Shocking, I tell you.

Enjoy 4th place, Mets trolls. That's where you are headed. Just hope the Phils don't finish 5th (kidding).

[MG]

Dave - Original estimate "Two weeks" with a realistic return around the NLCS if the Phils make it that far.

[Old Phan]

Talk about being snakebit...

[Heather]

Poor Jamie, he had a decent year this year.

[GTown_Dave]

MG: I only pray this doesn't give r00b pause before offering Jamie a 3-year extension. It is undoubtedly in the best interests of the ball club to allow him to pitch until his age & uniform number coincide.

[sifl]

Oh hey phylwink, yeah, that's what I said. Care to reply without using the term "goober"?

[Rire Fube]

Hunch: Phils trade Werth and Happ to the Rays for Wade Davis and a couple of their prospects

[baxter]

I'd take that trade in a millisecond

[kuvasz]

Nice Stengelese, raul's grandpa.

[phlipper]

Well, I have officially reached the state where I was for the vast majority of my years as a Phillies fan.

I have no expectations that this team will go anywhere. I hope to be pleasantly surprised, but I will hereby expect them to routinely lose most games.

This is very familiar territory. It was nice to be an optimistic fan for a while; while it felt odd and took some getting used to, I enjoyed it thoroughly.

But not now, at least not for this year. Then again, there were certainly moments in 2008 that I felt similarly - pretty much right up until the playoffs. So I reserve the right to switch back to optimism once again.

But for now, I am in full-on no expectations mode.

In fact, the whole team is a bunch of bums.

[phlipper]

And congratulations to G-town for the comment of the thread.

[Marley]

Regarding Moyer: this one feels like a loss. I generally don't get rattled by the ups and downs of a season, but...yeah.

[GTown_Dave]

I'm honored, but shall endeavor to remain humble. This recognition would not have been possible w/out the effort -- or lack thereof -- of the Philadelphia Phillies, & of J.R. King, who set me up perfectly. Rest assured, I know exactly how I'm going to keep all of you entertained during the remaining Dog Days (Sad or otherwise) of this season. I just choose not to tell you.

[Old Phan]

GTown, are you the new GM Carson?

[GTown_Dave]

Old Phan: Nah. I'm more like b_a_p's Sith Apprentice. I'll be changing my handle to Darth Pessimus when my training is complete.

[Old Phan]

You must know the Galactic shortstop Cal Rissian Jr.

[seattlephan]

I'm glad I decided to golf 9 holes after work instead of watching these jokers ... I'm hopeful Rube can get some decent prospects for Werth, Romero, Durbin etc. The firesale should begin asap after reading this thread

[Marley]

OP, I believe Rissian Jr.'s record of 2,632 consecutive Kessel Runs remains unchallenged to this day.

Impressive.

[Old Phan]

Marley, impressive indeed. "May The Force Out be with you."

[dlhunter]

The sun will come out tomorrow...

[dlhunter]

Oh yeah, and we got Darth Maul'd last night.

[dlhunter]

Which I suppose means UC is Qui-Gon Jinn.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Moyer going down certainly complicates Amaro's end-game scenarios for this season. Based on his track record, though, I have every expectation that he's going down swinging this year; the roster could look very different in a week or so.

At least Carpenter spared us any suspense in last night's game. No reason to watch to the end.

[PHinBK]

Why exactly would Houston trade Oswalt for Werth? Why would a lousy veteran squad trade their best pitcher for half a season of an underachieving outfielder?

[NEPP]

A threeway trade with Werth to Tampa, prospects to Houston and Oswalt to Philly makes the most sense given the rumors we're hearing.

[Matt]

Amaro is an idiot. Plain and simple.

He says our offense hasn't done the job yet he's looking for pitching?

You gave away Cliff Lee for nothing in December and now you're looking for pitching....

This guy is the anti-Pat Gillick....

Hey Rubin, Go Away.

[EastFallowfield]

.

[Wes Chamberlain]

CONSPIRACY THEORY ALERT!!!!!

Of all the Phillies hitters who benefited from Billmeyer's Binoculars, it was Jayson Werth who benefited the most. Maybe Werth is terrible with pitch recognition and only blossomed as a offensive force with the Phils while aided from sign stealing. Now that he is no longer tipped off to what pitch is coming, he can't hit. The Phillies know this and know that he is never going to be that right-handed threat again as they can no longer feed him what pitch is coming. Therefore they are shopping him knowing that they will be able to get good value for a player that really is not that good.

So trading Werth now for a top tier starter is a huge coup for RAJ.

(PS: I don't believe a word of what I just typed, but I thought I would float it out there just for fun)