Game chat: Doc gets the call to deliver series win

Roy Halladay (9-6, 2.29) and the Phillies try to take two out of three from Aaron Harang (6-7, 5.07) and the Reds in the matinee finale of their three-game series beginning at 12:35. Lineups are posted: Victorino CF, Dobbs 3B, Rollins SS, Howard IB, Werth RF, Ibanez LF, Valdez 2B, Sardinha C. Placido Polanco and Chase Utley are reportedly seeking second opinions for their injuries today. With Utley, the Phillies are bracing for the possibility that he could miss a couple of months. [Jump to the newest comments]

Comments

[GBrettfan]

I'm not convinced Halladay would still have chosen to sign with the Phillies as a free agent after watching us struggle through injuries and slumps this year. Maybe - too soon to say how we'll pan out this season - and of course, it's all conjecture. But the point is, there's no way of knowing we'd have been successful in signing him.

There is definite value in having Halladay for 3 vs. Cliff Lee for 1.

[GTown_Dave]

Add "13 hits allowed in a game" to the list of unpleasant career marks Halladay has set as a Phillie.

I'm not at all laying the blame entirely on Roy's shoulders, but I remain mystified as to why the team hasn't stepped up when he starts, & why Halladay has apparently struggled in areas that were supposed to be his strengths. The Phillies are now 9-8 in games Roy has started. Bottom Line: that's extremely disappointing, no matter who or what is to blame.

[MG]

I agree with BrideDoc. Enough with Lee. Dear lord.

[Chris in VT]

Halladay will be a Phil through 2014 most likely. Lee would have been a Phil through 2010 and then gone. That was the major impetus behind the trade. It's really not that hard to understand.
And Roy's been every bit as good as advertised.

[Bubba]

I can understand being really upset with Rube and the front office over getting rid of Lee, BUT why take those feelings out on Roy .He has pitched well, said all the right things, signed a long term reasonable priced deal(for as outlandish as salary structure is), & will be a Phils' pitcher for a while.
Besides the Halladay and Lee deals were seperate transactions.
Your gripe, if you have one is with Rube.

[Jack]

Chris in VT: What does Lee have to do with trading for Halladay and signing him through 2014?

I hate to keep taking about this. But as long as Lee is doing what he's doing, it's going to be talked about. And until someone can give me a real answer to the question above that doesn't either indict ownership as cheap, Amaro as incompetent, or the FO as bad talent evaluators, I'm going to keep asking the question.

[UD Hens]

It looks like everyone needs some time off.

[Jack]

I also agree that Halladay has been great. I have no complaints with the deal to get Halladay at all. He's awesome.

[thephaithful]

do people realize that cliff lee gave up two runs in the last inning in his CG last nite for a total of 4 runs? And Halladay did the EXACT SAME THING? but yet halladay is a bum and lee is god.

[Dave]

Top five consideration: the guys you mentioned and Pelfrey, Carpenter and Gallardo have pitched just as well as those five.

[Steve]

Lee might've left after this season, but I'd rather have a championship for this year than a few prospects who may never pan out.

[Marc H]

A tur ace takes that game home. Carlton would have; I guess Halladay is no Carlton

[Bob]

As great as last night's win felt, this loss feels bad. Certainly not one of Halladay's greatest outings, but would have really been nice to have seen the team's offense and defense pick him up some.

It's going to be a tough stretch.

[RedBurb]

When I see things like Halladay isn't a Top 5 pitcher in the NL from Phillies fans, I understand why people think Philadelphia fans are idiots.

[phlipper]

Jack,

If Doc had reached free agency - do you think there is any way that he would have signed for the same amount of money as his current contract?

Lee would have walked and the Phils would have been without an ace going forward.

As a lifelong Phillies fan I just can't get over how people are complaining that they signed, arguably, the best pitcher in baseball.

Loving to be miserable is the only viable explanation.

[BobbyD]

Tough loss? Does it really matter?

[Chris in VT]

Jack - For whatever reason, the ownership decided it was either Lee or Halladay, not both. Faced with that decision (which was obviously a moronic one), Amaro et al decided they'd rather lock up Halladay for 4 years than have Lee for 1 and then lose him to FA.

You can rail all you want about ownership being cheap (questionable) or dumb/incompetent (looks like a much more reasonable explanation), but the team was faced with a choice between Lee for 1 year or Halladay long-term. They chose Halladay long-term, which was the correct choice in that case.

[Rube]

If we had Lee and Halladay they would have pushed each other and supported each other like Koufax and Drysdale. This front office would rather try to win it with one hand tied behind their back.

[Alex]

Lee was also pitching with a 5 run lead in the 9th.

[Bridoc10]

I'm too lazy to look up the stats, but I'm pretty certain Carlton blew a few one run leads in his day.

Like every Phillies fan, I would have loved to see a Halladay/Lee/Hamels top three in the rotation. It didn't happen. Let's move on.

Regardless of the recent struggles, the Phillies are still in a Golden Age for Philadelphia baseball. Why can't we sit back and enjoy it while it lasts?

[thephaithful]

"a true ace brings this home"

really, there are "true aces" who never ever lost a game in June by giving up 4 runs?

[Chris in VT]

If If If...I'm tired of dwelling on how the team would look IF Lee was here.

The simple reality is that he isn't.

But RAJ could rectify that still...

[Heather]

I will say this. To me, an ace is a guy who goes out there and the opposing hitters know they're going to have to get extremely lucky to even get a run on the board. When even the occassional times where the opposing hitters DID get a hit, it was almost luck rather than skill.

For a few starts, Halladay was like that. Not so much now.

Am I disappointed? Yes. I was expecting Pedro or Clemens in his prime. Obviously that was setting the bar too high.

Guess I need to ratchet back my expectations for Halladay.

[Chris in VT]

Apparently the only way Halladay could have justified the trade(s) would be to go 35-0 with 35 perfect games.

This is ludicrous...look up the advanced metrics. Halladay's been the best pitcher in baseball this season (yes, even ahead of Lee).

[Diogenese]

Havent seen one of those "We aren't yankees,the front office just doesnt have the money" posts in a while.
I think it bothers people that we are so close and will never have a core like this in our lifetimes and they won't spend the money that they DO have to go the extra step to increase the odds of winning again.

[Bridoc10]

Another point - The Red are playing solid baseball right now. Sometimes you just have to tip your cap to the other team. Votta hit a very good pitch out of the yard.

[Chris in VT]

Heather - Pedro and Clemens in their prime were 2 of the 5 best pitchers in the history of the game.

The Phils have the best pitcher in baseball, but he's not in the top 5 all-time so he's a disappointment.

That makes tons of sense.

[Diane]

Hoping Halladay can outfox the Yankees in a 13 hitter in the WS doesnt get the heart pumping.

[Heather]

"This is ludicrous...look up the advanced metrics. Halladay's been the best pitcher in baseball this season (yes, even ahead of Lee)."

Not if you go by the average WAR per start.

[Andy]

Ruben has to get an infielder before he re-acquires Lee. Really. Who wants to fill out a line up card for two months picking two out of the following: Dobbs, Valdez, Castro and Bocock.

I wouldn't even wanna do that at Reading.

[Pat]

We shouldn't have to move on. We can look at the box score every 5th day and see what Lee is doing and know that he could still be doing that for the Phils the day after Halladay pitches.

We don't have to accept that Lee is gone, we need to criticize the FO for dumping Lee for garbage prospects to save a measly $9 million.

[Bridoc10]

@Diane & @ Heather:

for Chrissakes...it's June 30th!!!

[J]

How about a shout out to the subs that have performed above and beyone to keep the phils in this thing? Valdez, all of the back up catchers etc have been pretty incredible. God, I hope the Pirates series is better though and no one else gets hurt.

[RedBurb]

@Heather - nevermind the fact that Clemens was roiding either. Let's just gloss over that little factoid.

[thephaithful]

Heather: "not clemens or pedro in his prime"

Clemens blows lead in 8th - July 2 1986

Clemens in one of the greatest pitching seasons ever, had a 2-1 lead heading into the 8th against the blue jays 8-9-1 hitters. He gave up 3 runs in that innings and the Red Sox lost 4-2 to a 5th place Toronto club.

So technically, Roger Clemens in 1986 wasn't a true ace.

[Heather]

"Heather - Pedro and Clemens in their prime were 2 of the 5 best pitchers in the history of the game. "

If I had asked you before this season if Roy Halladay in his prime was one of the 10 best pitchers in the game, what would have have said?

DEFINITELY "NO"?

Just curious.

At any rate, I already admitted my expectations were set too high by the hype. Adjusting my expectations from Halladay pitching = certain win, to Halladay pitching = pretty good is obviously something I'm going to have to do.

[Jason]

Bridoc sounds a lot like wheels...

[Marc H]

Look, they are not playing with a full hand becuse of injuries. Thatls when an ace steps up and carries the team on his back, serving as his own closer if need be. Hallday has not stepped up in that fashion; he ptiches well enough to lose

[Bridoc10]

Someone called CoreySeidman just Tweeted the following:

The Phillies are 3-7 in Halladay's last 10 starts. Doc has a 3.16 ERA and 1.24 WHIP in that span, with 10 walks and 64 strikeouts in 66 IP.

You're right, guys. Halladay is SUCH disappointment.

[Heather]

Dude, what is everyone carping at me for? I have come out and said I obviously need ot adjust my expectations from Halladay = god-like to Halladay = top ten pitcher in the NL.

I haven't otherwise insulted the man or said he sucks as a pitcher.

What's the issue? Everyone tells me I need to properly adjust my expectations and then when I do and point that out, everyone jumps down my throat again.

I'm beginning to think ya'll just want someone to pick on and I happen to be the convenient target of the day.

[BobbyD]

It's not necessary to get personal against Halladay in this debate. He's a great pitcher. Love him on the Phillies. But the bottom line is they gave up way too much to go from one legitimate ace to another.

[limoguy]

Gotta hope for a better second half.

It seems as though they've had a season's worth of injuries in the first half already.

It's not crazy to think that will balance off in the second half.

I am so glad I didn't get Comcast when the season began. I've not seen at lot of these games and that's a good thing.

[Ted]

BobbyD, well said.

[MG]

Halladay:

1. Has he pitched very well this season and been 'ace'? - Yes.

2. Has he struggled a bit this month (6 GS, 2-4, 3.27 ERA, 1.37 WHIP, .293 BAA)? - Yes

3. Have the Phils generally not supported Halladay and played poor defense behind? (12th time in 17 GS they have scored 3 or less runs for him and DER behind him is less than a couple of Phils' starters) - Yes.

[Chris in VT]

"Heather - Pedro and Clemens in their prime were 2 of the 5 best pitchers in the history of the game. "

If I had asked you before this season if Roy Halladay in his prime was one of the 10 best pitchers in the game, what would have have said?

DEFINITELY "NO"?

Just curious.

At any rate, I already admitted my expectations were set too high by the hype. Adjusting my expectations from Halladay pitching = certain win, to Halladay pitching = pretty good is obviously something I'm going to have to do."

Wow, just...wow.

Roy is the best pitcher in baseball.

He's not one of the 10 best in the history of baseball, however.

I really don't understand how that makes him disappointing?

[thephaithful]

tough loss - it'll bring out the worst in some ppl - either negativity or stupidity.

Doc had a bad game, and so did everyone else but our 4th catcher. The diagnosis for polly and utley will weigh much heavier on the season than this loss however.

I have faith that both Halladay and the Phils bounce back and play better games.

[Bridoc10]

Let's look at this argument from another way:

Ramirez, Gillies and Aumont are legitimate prospects. They're young. They're unproven. Aumont has struggled, especially at AA. But they are considered high ceiling kids. I don't think there's much doubt about that.

I doubt it will happen, but the Phillies now have the ammo to go out and make a signficant move for an infielder if Chase is going to be out for a lengthy stretch. THAT was the reasoning Ruben gave for moving Lee, and it makes sense. That, and the fact that Halladay was willing to sign an extension, foregoing free agency.

[MG]

BrideDoc - A 3.16 ERA sounds very good but in a year where pitching is dominating it would only be good enough for 19th right now among qualified starters in the NL. Good but not great.

[Heather]

"Roy is the best pitcher in baseball."

What stat are you using to prove this?

[GTown_Dave]

Corey Seidman (via Twitter): "The Phillies are 3-7 in Halladay's last 10 starts. Doc has a 3.16 ERA and 1.24 WHIP in that span, with 10 walks and 64 strikeouts in 66 IP."

Those are solid numbers, but somewhat less impressive than what I was led to believe Roy would bring. On the other hand, the Phillies have scored a total of 27 Runs in the aforementioned 10 Halladay starts, or a lousy 2.7 per. That's a full 2 Runs/Game less than their overall season average of 4.8 Runs/Game. And that's not even taking into account the kind of "Defense" he's been subjected to.

As I said before, it's a mystery to me why this team under-performs noticeably when Halladay starts a game, & worrisome to me that Roy has appeared to struggle performance-wise at odd times. Has the former led to the latter? Are they completely unrelated? Does it even matter when so many key guys (Utley, Chooch, Rollins, Polanco) are out or playing w/ injuries? I really don't know.

Nevertheless, I was counting on the addition of Halladay to this team as equaling as close to a "Sure Thing" every 5th day as one can get in MLB, & so far the combo of Roy + the Phillies has not been that. 9 Wins, 8 Losses. Those are thoroughly disillusioning results.

[Pat]

I just hope the other 24 guys apologize to Halladay after every one of his starts

[Mcnesby]

Wow, Bridoc IS Wheeler!

[Bridoc10]

A team that suffers a yearly mid-season swoon is doing so again, and yet Beerleaguer is surprised.

With a 3.16 ERA over his last 10 starts, it's reasonable that Doc should have won at least 5 or 6 of those. He's won 3.

This will all be forgotten in September/October.

In the meantime, hope for a good prognosis for Chase and Placido tomorrow.

[Bridoc10]

I'm not Wheeler...and frankly, he annoys the hell out of me.

Am I too pragmatic and reasonable for this board?

[MG]

BrideDoc - Mean more than a midseason swoon.

May 17th: 24-13 and since then they are just 17-22. That 6+ weeks of below .500 baseball.

[MG]

BrideDoc - Agree on Halladay's record. If the Phils had actually given him a bit more RS, he would likely have 9 or 10 wins right now.

G'Town put it best. Thought he would be a guy where the Phils would probably win 2 of 3 Halladay starts. So far, hasn't turned out that way.

[Bridoc10]

@MG - is BridEdoc vs. BriDoc supposed to be a joke or a pun? If so, I don't get it.

[MG]

No pun typo.

[Bridoc10]

No worries, @MG.

Things tend to even out in this game. With all the bad bounces and injuries, I have to think a few breaks will start to go the Phils' way soon.

...and aren't they in a better position record-wise at this point of the season than they were in '08 and '09? Again, I'm too lazy to confirm. If so, I like our chances even more.

[TK]

They are in better position but the Braves and Mets are better teams....

[Bridoc10]

@TK.

Better teams than THEY were, or better than the Phillies. If you mean the former, I agree. I don't agree on the latter.

[TK]

Better than they were...So are the Nats, whom we beat up 15 out of 18 last year.

[EastFallowfield]

Tweet:

Took Roy Halladay 50 minutes following the final out to meet with reporters. He was as frustrated as he's been all season.

[Heather]

"Things tend to even out in this game. With all the bad bounces and injuries, I have to think a few breaks will start to go the Phils' way soon."

That's what the 09 Mets thought too.

[Bridoc10]

@Heather: The '09 Mets did not have a team of proven winners with a track record of success. The core of this team knows how to win. They are NOT the Mets. Period.

[HOLY MACKEREL]

Bridoc10 - " Ramirez, Gillies and Aumont are legitimate prospects." ." I doubt it will happen, but the Phillies now have the ammo to go out and make a significant move for an infielder if Chase is going to be out for a lengthy stretch. "
----------------------
----------------------
wow - I want those hallucinogenic drugs you're on..

R U kidding me, Do you really believe that?
--------------
If so, maybe we can trade them for Mike Costanzo, ( right TTI)

[HOLY MACKEREL]

I think Roy was spent after the 7th inning and s/have not started the 8th.

I think we beat the Lee trade to death (@ least for today)

[Bridoc10]

@Mackeral: Weren't both Aumont and Ramirez in the BA preseason Top 100? Has three months erased that entirely? Aren't they very young? What part of any of that is hallucinogenic?

[Jack]

Bridoc: Aumont was #93 going into this year. Ramirez was not ranked.

I appreciate your being positive, but I think it's funny your assertion that this is so different than what the Mets went through. With such winners as Brian Schneider, the Phils are sure to soldier on like the Mets could not.

Wait, Schneider was on last year's Mets team, too? And the 2008 team? Holy crap. Get him off the team now. He's not proven enough for this team. He's a clear choke artist who has no heart or clutchness whatsoever.

[Bridoc10]

@Jack:

If we're depending on Brian Schneider to win the division, we're going to be disappointed.

I'm being positive because this team, until proven otherwise, knows how to win. I refuse to throw them under the bus on June 30th, especially when both the Mets and Braves have their own flaws, as well.

Jimmy Rollins isn't a choke artist. Neither is Ryan Howard. Neither is Jayson Werth. Neither is...need I go on?

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Why isn't Halladay striking every batter he faces out?!?!?!?!?!?!? AHHHHHHH

I lost a lot of respect for a lot of BL posters today.

[HOLY MACKEREL]

BTW -– Bridoc10 - sorry about the hallucinogenic drugs comment – That post really sounded a bit too optimistic

Anyway - I will beaten alive by other BL
commenters soon, if it hasbt already happened

re- your comment-

They're not condidered top prospects are they for 2010..

BASEBALL AMERICA - when are the prospects evaluated for each year – In other words when were the top prospects in the 2009 list actually evaluated & when were they evaluated for this year. If I recall, isn’t there a major lag between the evaluation and when the list comes out

[DH Phils]

MG: You're saying it's 6 weeks of below .500 ball, but the Phillies have won 10 of 16 now against mostly contending (except for Cleveland), mostly American League (except for Cincinnati) teams.

Everyone suggesting that Halladay is not a true ace is absolutely out of their mind. RedBurb nailed it when he said this is why people think Philadelphia fans are idiots.

Disappointing, overhyped, not-ace Roy Halladay's earned runs per start:
6, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0

Innings per start:
9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 8, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 6.1, 6, 5.2

What more is he supposed to do?

It is flat-out dumb to lament that you were hoping the Phillies would win two-thirds of his starts, when he's allowed 2 ER or fewer in 12 of 17. It isn't his fault that the Phillies have only won 9 of his starts. It also isn't his fault if you expected him to have an ERA under 1 with 4 baserunners per game.

[Heather]

"I'm being positive because this team, until proven otherwise, knows how to win. I refuse to throw them under the bus on June 30th, especially when both the Mets and Braves have their own flaws, as well."

To get to be a professional athlete, I would think one would have to know how to be a "winner". They're winners on their T-ball teams, their Little League team, their high school team, their college team, and through the minor leagues.

One has to do quite a lot of winning to get to be a major league ball player, and then one has to play one's best, year in and year out.

To assign Philly's ball players a quality of "winningness" that is irrespective of the team's individual ballplayers is ludicrous.

Rollins, Howard, etc are good ball players. They win games when their team scores more runs than the other team. They lose when they don't.

To say that the Phils are going to win because they have some innate quality of winning is ludicrous.

The Phils have no more or no less "winningness" than the Braves, Mets, etc. The individual ball players and their talents will win or lose games, not otherwise.

[Jbird]

Halladay shouldn't have come out for the 8th. Of course who in the bullpen is likely to have done better? Baez? The runs Halladay gave up were homeruns to some very good young players. Bruce was at one point BA's #1 overall prospect and Votto is a beast. The guy's an ace, there's no two ways around it. And sometimes even your ace will give up 4 runs. The real culprit is the lineup that got shut down for most of the game by a middling Harang.

I can't wait to see this board when Seattle gets more for 1/2 a year of Lee than we did in the offseason.

[HOLY MACKEREL]

Bedrosian's Beard - I agree w/ you 100%

Halliday is awesome - for real - but Chuck and Dubee donot know how to manage him. UC s/ make the decision as to when to pull a pitcher, not the pitcher.. even Roy.

[Marc H]

My heart goes out to every little kid who gets yelled at by his dad at a little league game, even though the kid is trying his best. I have no such patience for Hallday, who gets paid 20 million a year and holds himself out as some great pitcher.

With all of thie injuries, he;s one of the guys who has to step up if they are going to stay in this race. I don;lt know whether they pitched him too much early in the season and its fatigue, but he hasn't been close to that lately.

[HOLY MACKEREL]

I can't wait to see this board when Seattle gets more for 1/2 a year of Lee than we did in the offseason.

Posted by: Jbird | Wednesday, June 30, 2010 at 04:48 PM
----------

True-

The BL server may crash! If the Mets get him -- well--- I dont want to think about that option..

[Heather]

"I can't wait to see this board when Seattle gets more for 1/2 a year of Lee than we did in the offseason."

What I really can't wait to see is the FO and RAJ apologists who will tell us that our deal was actually better, despite every respectable baseball publication and reporter telling us otherwise.

[DH Phils]

Marc H: In a sea of stupid comments, yours are without question the stupidest.

[GTown_Dave]

Meanwhile, the Phillies scouted He-Who-Must Not-Be-Named's start at Yankee Stadium last night. One wonders: what are the Phillies hoping to learn from this exercise that they shouldn't already have known after watching Him pitch in '09 ... at Yankee Stadium ... during the World F*cking Series?! Confirmation that the FO did, in fact, rape the proverbial koala silly by trading Him for a few beans of a decidedly non-magical variety?

[Bedrosian's Beard]

"our deal was actually better, despite every respectable baseball publication and reporter telling us otherwise."

publications have already written that the (so far) nonexistent trade of Lee to X team is better than our trade?

[Jack]

Bridoc: I guess I just don't know what your point was. Did the Mets have a bad year last year because of injuries, or because they were choke artists?

My point with Schneider was that if you get a rash of serious injuries, you're screwed no matter how clutch your stars have been in the past--because your stars aren't on the field. The Mets lost all their stars last year. If the Phils have the same thing happen, we're screwed too.

You seemed to say that the "breaks would even out" for the Phillies, and Heather responded that they didn't for last year's Mets. You then said last year's Mets weren't proven winners. Thus you seemed to be implying that the Mets' injury woes were a result of their mental character. Now, I'm guessing you didn't mean to say that, so perhaps you could clarify.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

I believe the Phils were scouting Jose Lopez.

[Heather]

I know that was meant as funny but I actually wonder if Jose Lopez isn't better than Dobbs. At least he's a great defender. Maybe you could just have him bunt all the time.

[The Truth Injection]

Bridoc: Two things for you-

1.) You're swimming against the current here trying to be upbeat about the Phillies. People were throwing them under the bus June 1st.

2.) Holy mackerel is not intelligent. You're best not wasting your breath with him. He has no concept of good prospects in the minors.

JBird: I posted a piece from Ken Rosenthal last night where he says it sounds like the cost for Lee will be less than it was the past two times he was traded. Also, if the Mets get him it will only be because they traded their top 2 or 3 prospects to get him. If they do that for a 1/2 season of Cliff Lee than they are just setting themselves up for future failure. I have no problem if that happens.

[Jbird]

Gtown: it took a lot of self control not to burst out laughing here in my office. . . rape the koala. . . priceless

[denny b.]

Doc has been riden harder then he ever has before in 2010. He is throwing more pitches per start then ever before. Is it paying off? Not really. 9-7 and the team playing below .500 baseball when he pitches, is simply not good enough.

Doc looked out of steam in the 8th inning today. But Cholly is going to continue to ride him until he can't be ridden no more I guess. A 13 hit, 4 ER complete game? Really? Was Contreras tired after that 1 pitch outing last night? Sometimes you have to know when to say when. Cholly never has known when.

So which 3B are available for trade?

Because if as many are hearing that Utley is down for multiple weeks (maybe until September), then this team is going to HAVE to trade for a 3B. Pronto.

Polanco then will slide over to 2B....provided Polly isn't out for a while either. If that happens, we are done for in 2010. Can't lose 2 of your 4 best hitters for a long stretch and hope to survive this year. Might be tough to win the thing if everybody is healthy. Would be impossible if you lose both.

Ruben got all the credit for pulling off the Cliff Lee trade and then getting Roy Halladay here in the offseason. And he deserved that credit. But he has some serious work ahead of him in the coming days.

Because there is a glaring hole in the offense without Utley in there. This offense wasn't all that strong in 2010 even with him in there. Forget about Cliff Lee or Pedro or whichever else pitcher some dream about bringing in. This team has enough starters and eventually will have enough relievers to win.

Its the players in the field that need the attention now. Because I don't think this team doesn't have enough firepower to win this year. Not with the current cast and certainly not with the taxi squad group Cholly has sitting next to him on the bench.

[Jack]

Jose Lopez is kind of like a very poor man's Polanco, both offensively and defensively. He's a contact hitter who doesn't walk very much and hits for decent, but not great power (his 25 HRs last year seem to be a fluke, like Polanco's 18 in 2004, but he's still young, so who knows). Most of Lopez's value is tied up in his batting average, which in good years is around .280-.290, and in bad years can go down to .250-.260. So in this way, he's like Polanco, just 30 points down the batting scale.

His defense is average at 2B, but would probably play above-average at 3B, judging by his (admittedly limited) numbers so far this year at third.

If he could be had for a decent price, he would be worth picking up, as he could play both 2nd and 3rd and would obviously be a big upgrade over Juan Castro. However, his flaws (dependent on average, no walks, question on how consistent the power is) are big enough that you can't justify giving up a top prospect of note for him.

[Jbird]

TTI - I saw it. we'll see.

And I've been saying since yesterday, we're still going to win the division.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Heather: That's serious. Lopez plays 3b, 2b, ss. Not that I'm wild about getting him. but I highly doubt the Phils were scouting Lee, since they know what he brings.

[Reverend]

To all the people complaining about Halladay I would like to thank you for making this blog unreadable today and making it look like a Mets Blog.

[DH Phils]

The complaints about Halladay, and how he hasn't been good enough, hasn't gotten the job done, and has been a disappointment embarrass me as a Phillies fan.

[awh]

I missed the game today as commerce called.

The best thing about that is that I didn't have to suffer through another afternoon of listening to Tom McCarthy.

The pitching gave up 17 runs in 3 games, or 5.67 RPG.

1 - 2. Any questions?

[Jack]

Yeah, all complaints about the Lee trade aside (they are separate things completely), Halladay has been absolutely fine, and another example of why W-L record is a terrible way to judge a pitcher.

He's been far better than his 9-7 record would indicate. He's been one of the top pitchers in the league--exactly what we traded for.

[Heather]

I think if the Phils need a 2nd or 3rd baseman for the rest of the season they need to do better than Jose Lopez. I mean, Jose Lopez as a bench player? Yeah. Jose Lopez, starting 3rd baseman? Meh. According to Fangraphs, he's been worth .1 WAR so far this year. Not setting the world on fire, though at least not Dobbsian.

[Jack]

Heather: If you just looked at his start to this season, sure. But check what he did the last two years. He was worth 2.3 WAR in 2008 and worth 2.5 WAR in 2009.

For a stopgap replacement, that wouldn't be a bad player to have. Certainly better than Valdez, Castro, Dobbs or anyone else you could come up with that's readily available. And he can play all the infield positions except SS (he's played a few games there, but could not really be expected to do so going forward except in an emergency).

[pblunts]

Honestly, I didn't think Halladay would lose seven games all year, let alone before July. It's been well documented that much of it has not been his fault. Still,if we manage to stay in the race with all of the injuries and an awful bench, I'll be happy. I just think that once everyone is healthy, it might be too late for the calvary.

[EastFallowfield]

Yo, new thread

[kuvasz]

Guys, Roy Halladay wore out today.

His pitching dropped off from the sixth inning on. I don't know if this was the result of going deep into earlier games, but from seeing the game from the front row at third base, the guy looked exhausted walking off the mound from the sixth inning and afterwards the sound of his fastball hitting the catcher's glove stopped having the loud pop his pitches had in the first few innings.

He wore out, that's all that happened, Had Bruce's HR been about seven feet shorter the Phillies likely would have won.

I am less concerned about a tough loss to a tough team that is playing good baseball than I am about burning out Halladay's right arm.

I hope to hell Charlie Manuel stops running this guy out game after game to the 8th-9th innings, even if that is also Halladay's wish.......and for those who would point out that Halladay has always been a workhorse......everybody gets old.....(um, except Moyers).