Game chat: Big guns flexed in World Series rematch

Roy Halladay and CC Sabathia saddle up as the Phillies make a lineup switch, with Chase Utley batting second and Placido Polanco third. First pitch is 7:05 from Yankees Stadium. (Getty)

Halladay vs. Sabathia: Besides the Phillies, nobody was happier that Roy Halladay changed teams than the team that beat them in the World Series. The notorious Yankees killer posted an 18-6 mark and 2.81 ERA in 35 career starts against New York during his time with the Blue Jays. Halladay took a tough-luck loss in his last outing against Florida. Opponents have have gone deep just once against him in his last 62 innings, the last occurring May 23 against Boston. ... Following a one-and-done with the Brewers in the 2008 NLDS (ah, memories), tonight's starter CC Sabathia got his revenge in the 2009 fall classic, although in general, the Phils have never had great trouble with the imposing left-hander, who's 1-3 with a 4.74 ERA in six starts against them.

Bad bench: I've read a lot of comments about the bench and how a shake-up in that department wouldn't solve the Phillies' real issue of getting their 3-4-5 hitters off the schneid. True, but they're still atrocious, making it two-straight seasons of total futility off the pine. In 91 pinch hit chances, they're posting a 120/.189/.217, and when they're subbed into the game, they're hitting .164/.224/.259. Shoring up the bench has been a complete miss for Ruben Amaro.

Vote updates: Chase Utley and Placido Polanco are the leading National League vote-getters at second and third. Ryan Howard and Jimmy Rollins rank second at first and short, Carlos Ruiz is fourth behind the plate and Jayson Werth and Shane Victorino rank fourth and fifth among outfielders.

RIP RISP: Wimps I say. Wimps: .249/.349/.390 in 636 plate appearances, no small sample size.

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Comments

[GBrettfan]

I like your comment, JW: RIP RISP. Clever.

One of the main reasons I liked George Brett so much (besides the fact that I was an adolescent girl living in KC) was that he was a great clutch hitter. I miss that, right now, in the Phils.

[GBrettfan]

Oh, and our best chance of winning a game this series is tonight. Let's go, team!

[MG]

GBrettfan - Phils need to take at least 1 game this series. Maybe they get a good outing from Geezer or KK but more likely they struggle/get bombed.

[RSB]

I have to argue that the futility of the bench isn't all on Amaro: it's partly on Manuel. The bench has been a weakness ever since he came on board, and one big reason is because he doesn't use it enough. He throws the same lineup out there night after night after night and doesn't keep the reserves sharp. For better or worse, #41 is in large part responsible for moulding the Phillies into AL team, or what was traditionally known as one - and this is one of the more regrettable consequences.

[awh]

"""you may be tired of hearing about the Lee trade but the pitching staff appears, at this juncture, to be inadequate to compete in the post season. Moyer and Blanton getting shelled by Boston is not a good sign.

Considering Aumont is going backward, Gillies is hurt, and Ramirez is inconsistent at best, and considering Lee is killing it in Seattle, it appears at this juncture that Amaro failed to achieve his goal.

Additionally since the analysts believe the Phillies need another starter for October, and rumors are they may be seeking one, then how can you not lament the Lee trade now?

I don't care about the numbers this season, I personally don't have any confidence in anyone other than Halladay and (i guess) Hamels taking the mound come crunch time.

Posted by: PHinBK | Tuesday, June 15, 2010 at 04:50 PM"""

PHinBK, I just had to comment on your post in the last thread. Where, oh where, to start:

If you think the Phils pitching staff is adequate for the playoffs, where are the Red Sox right now with DiceK and Beckett on the DL? Are they adequate to compete in the postseason? Plus, they're still looking for middle relief because their middle relief stinks. Ramirez, Okajima, Atchinson, Schoenweiss and Nelson have 5.26, 4.87, 4.76, 7.90, and 9.72 ERAs respectively.

I'm glad that you are a rational and reasonable enough guy to judge a trade for prospects - Single A prospects at that - after 2-1/2 months of baseball. The Lee trade may well indeed wind up being a total bust, but are you good enough a talent evaluator to judge it now?

You say you "don't care about the numbers this season"?

Really? Then WTF was the purpose of your post?

[clout]

FWIW, I LOVE batting Uts second. If I were manager that would be his spot with the pitcher hitting 8th and high OB Ruiz in the 9 hole getting on for Vic, Uts, Ibanez, Howard & Werth.

Don't like Polly at #3, though. I'd bat him 7th if he's not hitting 2nd. J-Roll bats 6th.

[MG]

Reason that Moyer likely to get bombed:

Yanks destroy LHP: .284/.370/.466

Yanks have ridiculous numbers at home this year: .310/.392/.507

They also have their share of guys who bat left-handed against KK (Cano, Texiera, Posada, Swisher, Granderson, Gardner) and give him fits.

[Jack]

Clout: I basically agree with your lineup, but I'd switch Raul and Werth, because Werth is a better OBP guy to get in front of Howard. When everyone is healthy, my lineup would be:

Shane
Utley
Werth
Howard
Ibanez
Rollins
Polanco
P
Ruiz

But we all know that lineup would never, ever happen, so there's not much point to discussing it.

[Jack]

I would also be fine with flipping Rollins to 5th and Ibanez to 6th, if J-Roll was hitting and Raul was slumping. Those guys would be pretty much interchangeable to me there.

[GBrettfan]

MG, yes, that's my fear too, for Jamie's and KK's outings. They could surprise us, however. It's been known to happen. (Anyone know whether the home plate ump for Moyer's start will be generous or stingy with those corners he needs? And is he facing Burnett or Pettit?) But tonight is a must-win for us or we stand a fantastic chance of being swept. Of course, that is why they play the games, and I'd surely love to be proved wrong and see us do the sweeping. (Don't worry, I'm not holding my breath!)

RSB, Charlie's been using his bench plenty of late.

[MG]

clout - Agreed.

As for Amaro, how can you really begin to judge him given that he hasn't even been the GM for even 2 seasons yet?

I don't like his persona at all (nor did most of the Stanford MBAs grad I worked/met in the Bay Area while I worked out there compared to say the Berkeley MBA grads) or the way he addresses people but that really doesn't have much to do with his track record of running the team.

It isn't too early though to judge that Amaro has also has a clear preference for older players, is a risk-taker who is not afraid to make controversial moves, is an early-mover who makes a strategic decision & follows through on it even if it means overpaying for that option in terms of years/dollars.

[GBrettfan]

Well, this is uplifting. From Zolecki:

Braves: vs. Rays, vs. Royals, at White Sox, vs. Tigers.
Mets: at Indians, at Yankees, vs. Tigers, vs. Twins.
Marlins: vs. Rangers, vs. Rays, at Orioles.
Nationals: at Tigers, vs. White Sox, vs. Royals, @ Orioles.

The Braves, Marlins and Mets are three of the five NL teams to have winning records in interleague play. If that holds true and the Phillies continue to struggle, they could find themselves in a deep hole by the time interleague is over. Time to get going.

[RSB]

GBrett - out of necessity due to slumps and injuries. If he used the bench more evenly through the season, it would almost certainly perform with better consistency.

[clout]

Jack: I'll buy that. Werth also breaks up the L-L-L.

[Jack]

Clout: Yeah, that too. Which is also why Rollins 5th and Raul 6th makes sense. Then you're going S-L-R-L-S-L-R-P-R. I like that a lot.

[MG]

RSB - I agreew with that to a point. Francisco likely would perform better if used more in spots that made especially vs. LHP instead of the hapless Ibanez this season. Maybe you can make an argument for Schneider too especially with the way Ruiz has hit (or not at all) the last month.

Dobbs though was given some starts and simply failed to respond. Castro is a washed-up stiff. He's even worse than Bako was last year. He has no business on a MLB roster at this point. Gload has some value a PH but where does he play? He is a disaster in RF and is limited to 1B/LF. LF is already crowded and I don't want Gload playing at 1B over Howard.

[clout]

MG: Moyer career vs NYY - 10-9, 4.78, 1.36 WHIP.

In other words, roughly his career average. There are a bunch of teams that Moyer is worse against, including Boston.

Moyer career in Interleague play - 20-15, 3.61, 1.18 WHIP.

[GBrettfan]

RSB - Agreed.

[GBrettfan]

Am I the only one who doesn't want Chase to play in the All-Star game? Even if his numbers merited it, he seems to me to be a guy who could better benefit from getting those days off.

[RSB]

MG: I agree with you on Castro, but how can you tell if he's washed up? This is the level he's played at his whole career. The signing didn't make any more sense to me at the time than it does now except to consider Amaro just likes players well in to their 30s.

I guess I was thinking chiefly of Francisco, but Gload has barely played as well. Considering how lousy Ibanez has been, the two of those guys, at the very least, should have been given more playing time in the first nine weeks.

[MG]

clout - His career numbers don't mean much vs. Yanks because of the time sapn of his career. The only four current Yanks' players who have faced him alot are Jeter, Posada, ARod, and Texiera. All of them have at least 40 ABs or more, have hit .300 or more against him, and an OPS of .826 (Jeter at the lowest) or better.

[MG]

RSB - Defensively I meant with Castro. Offensively he has hit like he has in previous years. Defensively he was billed as a good defensive SS and that just isn't the case. He isn't Eric Bruntlett but no way is a quality defender out there either.

[dcphilsfan]

good post on halladay's history vs. the yanks - longdistancephilliesfan.blogspot.com

[Spitz]

MG - does RAJ have an MBA from Stanford? I thought he had just an undergrad from stanford.

[GBrettfan]

The Yankees just played the Astros for interleague??

[Voice of Reason]

Awesome the Utley is batting 2nd and Polanco 3rd. that is really close to the lineup i have suggested here a few times earlier (is charlie reading?). but i would put valdez in lead-off spot (until j-roll comes back) and put victorino 6th, ibanez 7th, ruiz 8th.

Before I get torn apart, let me explain why:

Valdez has made contact, can hit for doubles and has speed, and his biggest weakness has been the GIDP. Leading off won't have him in a man-on-first situation often (following the pitcher, he may have more RISP scenarios without an automatic GIDP situation). Plus, he keeps J-Roll's spot warm for him, and everyone else gets used to their roles.

Utley-Polanco-Howard-Werth breaks up the lefty Utley-Howard late-inning no-brainer LOOGY decision opposing managers have had the last few years. Also gives Utley a chance to rethink his role -- jar him a little -- and gives sweet-hitting Polanco a chance to drive in more RBIs.

Victorino has proven a very good RBI guy here, and batting 6th should have more opportunities than leading off.

Ibanez 7th: seems fairly obvious. Ibanez has value, and may be coming around, but would be more valuable as a lower-pressure but high-delivery 7-man than a higher-pressure 6-spot man.

Chooch in the 8th spot is where he performs best.

[GBrettfan]

"Separating the LH hitters vs. the LHP." B/c that's something Charlie always does. I guess it's something he only does when the team is totally scuffling for a month.

[Sophist]

Valdez has a .268 career OBP. He has no business leading off.

[NEPP]

Utley didn't strikeout...I'll take that as a positive.

I think we need another Campaign Cheer to lighten the mood.

Anyone?

[NEPP]

I'd honestly bat Utley leadoff...even if he ever breaks out of this slump. He'd be a great leadoff hitter...and it'd allow Rollins do hit for power in the 2 or 3 hole.

Seriously, why the hell not? Great OBP skills, good power, great baserunning...Uts should be leadoff to set the table.

[Sophist]

Charlie usu. goes S-R-L-L-R-L. He just doesn't usu. split up Utley and Howard. The Phils just don't usu. face CC (who's held LHB under .570 OPS the last three years) and, Utley, usually, can hit LHP.

[NEPP]

Utley hits LHP better than RHP and has for a couple years. He's never really been a bad hitter vs. LHP so its not an issue of stacking LHB with him.

[Sophist]

NEPP - in the pregame they said Charlie moved Utley to 2d to split the lefties. Maybe I misheard them.

[Spitz]

I feel like a golden sombrero upcoming for Ryno.

[NEPP]

Did he? I'm not on the Phillies broadcast. UC is odd at best. I wonder if he even realizes that Utley has had reverse splits for the last 2 seasons and has never had an issue vs. LHP (career .893 OPS)

Note: He's a Career .900 OPS vs. RHP...basically dead even after 4000 total PAs.

[Mick O]

GBrett I don't want any Phillies in any All-star game ever. It's the biggest waste with no upside whatsoever*. I loathe the ASG. I loathe the HR Derby. They are the antithesis of competition.

Mick O

* Ok, I admit "Boo? F**K you!" was a nice upside.

[NEPP]

I wonder if Milt's got his resume updated?

[NEPP]

Give BennyFrank credit for not striking out...or wasting anyone's time by taking enough pitches to strikeout. I like that type of efficiency out of a player.

[Sophist]

NEPP - There is no question that the Phils are well aware of Utley's batting splits. That's baseball kindergarten.

[NEPP]

I was just joking Sophist...well mostly. UC does play the L/L, R/R matchup thing quite a bit...regardless of actual splits.

[Sophist]

Could also, regardless of how valid the approach, have something to do with Polanco's success against CC and Utley's recent struggles. Polanco has good career numbers against CC.

[NEPP]

I remember thinking (and saying) that we should trade for Swisher last year...back when the Yankees had him on the market. Ashame we didnt do that.

[NEPP]

Whatever the reason, I like seeing Utley higher in the lineup...and I'd like to see him stay in the 2 hole.

[Matt]

Well, there's your game. No way the Phillies score more than two runs tonight.

[NEPP]

If they lose tonight and the offense again doesn't show up, Rube should fire Milt. Nothing else has shaken them up, maybe that will.

[GBrettfan]

Today is not the day for Halladay to have a bad game.

Although he could have a great game and still lose, easily, so maybe it doesn't matter.

[Gsl]

Nepp: just stop.

[Old Phan]

Roy looked a little cranky in that inning.

[Willard Preacher]

If they can't get out of the offensive funk in the bandbox that is CBP, perhaps they can break out of if in the band box that is Yankee stadium.

If the Phils can't muster 2-3 runs/game in this kiddie pool, perhaps we should just call up the AAA team.

[timr]

This slump has really become poisonous. Does anyone doubt that the lack of runs puts added pressure on the pitchers--even, it appears, the great Halladay?

Plus, a two run deficit might as well be twenty runs for this team, especially against a guy like CC.

This game is already over.

[Willard Preacher]

This slump appears to have made Wheels even more of a pompous ass than he usually is. The gifts just keep on giving.

[NEPP]

****Nepp: just stop. ****

Stop what? I'm not the first to bring up firing Milt. I'm not even saying its Milt's fault (it 99% isn't) but its a move that a team that's struggling to hit this much would do.

Damn, I'm not even being negative tonight and you're on me for something.

Here goes: I think we're playing quite well to only be down 2 runs to the defending champions with our Ace on the mound. We have a real shot to win this one...as long as Doc keeps it close. We usually hit CC well and its a good offensive park.

[Matt]

Vic looked pretty clueless in that at bat.

[TK]

That Victorino AB was terrible, as have been many of his previous ABs. Dear lord, this team sucks.

[GBrettfan]

I'm listening rather than watching, but it seems to me we're making this pretty easy for C.C.

[GBrettfan]

However, second time through the lineup, that's when we can get to C.C.

[Voice of Reason]

Hey, that kind of optimism is infectious, NEPP!

We also have a terrific bench, an underpaid #3 pitcher, and a handsome-as-hell former utility infielder/rain-out poster boy!!!

[philwynk]

Doesn't look like the Great Roy Halladay is so great tonight. Very disturbing performance the past two innings.

[GBrettfan]

Remember the days when our offense could very often overcome a sub-par outing by our SP? Will those days ever return? Maybe tonight? Not that the Yankees have put up a huge deficit, but it does seem they've got Halladay's number tonight, or at least, that he does not have theirs.

[timr]

Boy, this is going to be ugly. Halladay doesn't have it and CC does; Phils can't hit and Yanks can... we may end up with a new low point for the season tonight.

(Sorry for the continued negativity but damn, this is tough to watch).

[JBird]

how is it that players get better when they go to the Yankees?

[NEPP]

We could be watching history tonight...Sabathia is on pace for an 18 K No-hitter. That would be the most in a No-hitter in modern history.

I believe this is the definition of rock bottom.

[Matt]

Sigh.

[Iceman]

NEPP: I 100% agree with you on Milt. However, you can't call for the firing of a coach and then say 5 minutes later "I'm not even being negative tonight." Calling for a coach's head is what, neutral?

[Old Phan]

Good thing Moyer isn't pitching.

[Willard Preacher]

Who was it in an earlier thread that we'd even see a brief period where Hallady stunk up the joint?

[The Truth Injection]

Iceman: It's NEPP's version of positive.

I guess by bruce Ruffin's logic we can blame Halladay for demoralizing the troops

[holy mackerel]

the entire team has this slump-itous

even the good doc..

KK +OLE MAN = sweep by yanks

[NEPP]

I'm not calling for firing him...just saying it wouldn't be a surprise if it happens. They have to do something more than call another team meeting. This is past the point of a slump...its rapidly pushing the envelope towards "lost season" at this point.

Our Ace pitcher who traditionally kills the Yankees is getting hammered and our offense is on pace to strike out 18 times and get no-hit.

Negativity aside, what else can they do to change this? Other than a big trade and I dont think that's the answer.

In all seriousness, does anyone have any ideas on what they could do?

[Voice of Reason]

Okay, time to call in a priest, a rabbi, and a witch doctor and get this thing back on track. The wheels are off.

[GBrettfan]

Well, crap.

LA now advocates beaning someone to start a brawl as a means of boosting team morale/resolve/togetherness.

[Old Phan]

Did Roy get rattled by the bad calls in the 2nd inning?

[holy mackerel]

at this rate by the time the twins series is over - we s/be about 6 games out

[NEPP]

Truth Injection, what do you think they should do at this point?

Seriously, what can they do to fix this?

[GBrettfan]

Well, I don't mind missing some of the game to walk the dog, now.

[holy mackerel]

old phan - that;s an excuse - doc is paid mucho $$$ & supposed to be above all that mental crap/

[JBird]

Eat it CC! Not going to get no hit tonight!

[Distinguished Stanford Alum]

"We're not making any major moves. This is our team out here. They'll be fine."

[NEPP]

8-16 in their last 24...looking at 8-17 in their last 25.

Ouch....I can't believe its gotten that bad.

[The Truth Injection]

There goes the no-hitter.

NEPP: My problem is this with what you say. There are legitimate issues with the team right now. However, you sound the alarm on everything. It's the boy who cried wolf syndrome.

[Cliff_Lee]

I dominated these guys last year....why did they get rid of me?

[NEPP]

A Howard HR would be HUGE right now.

[Barney Fife]

Fire the boob.

[holy mackerel]

maybe all of our optimistic talk will "will' them our of their slumber

[Old Phan]

"doc is paid mucho $$$ & supposed to be above all that mental crap/"

"Supposed" to being the operative word.

[NEPP]

That was pretty much the only way Ryan was getting on...he had no idea on the first 2 strikes.

Sabathia meltdown in 3,2,1...

Now would be a nice time for Werth's first HR against a LHP this year.

[Voice of Reason]

NEPP: A Werth HR would be HUGE right now. (Given that it is CC, a Victorino AB would be nice now, too!)

[holy mackerel]

we need brett meyers to bat now!

[Old Phan]

There is no doubt that if they fired Milt, the team would go on a torrid hitting streak.

[NEPP]

An Ibanez HR would be HUGE right now.

[holy mackerel]

dp or k

[Old Phan]

I would settle for a nice 2 run single.

[NEPP]

****There is no doubt that if they fired Milt, the team would go on a torrid hitting streak. ****

Who knows...weirder things have happened. I'm not saying it would make a difference...I just wouldn't be stunned if it happened. (if it continues). Come on Raul...break it open!

[holy mackerel]

he could have walked already w/ all of his bad pitch swings

[Gsl]

That's a great at bat Raul.

[Old Phan]

And all this time I thought the game was already over.

[cjp]

Hey, this feels kinda familiar

[Iceman]

Haha, holy mackerel proving himself to be the BL Kreskin. Keep it up Sally.

[NEPP]

Good job Raul...good job!

[Voice of Reason]

A Francisco HR would be HUGE right now!!!