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Tuesday, May 25, 2010

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The All-Star game starters are not now... and have not been for a LONG time... reserved for the most "deserving." If we want to move to that system, the public will not have a vote.

I want 8 Phillies starting the All-Star game!

I wish we wasted this thread on the Lee trade, rather than the Draft thread. Oh well.

I'm someone that never follows the MLB draft, so out of curiosity, how "toolsy" were Utley, Howard, and Rollins considered when they were drafted?

Sorry to be a grinch, but i despise the all star game and all of the bullsh*t that comes with it.

More to the point... who should start the All-Star game at 1st base?

Joey Votto, of course. He leads NL 1B in OPS, AVG, SLG, SB, HR, RBI, R and 3B.

Is Joey Votto more deserving than Albert Pujols?

In fact I am the opposite of CJ. I wish the entire Phillies team would have a 3 day vacation.

bbeard: you underestimate the powers of the lee trade.

allstars: I am pretty sure Either will get the votes needed and that David Wright will get a big push once ppl see that he is not on the top.

I really was hoping Yadier would not be the top C. He has much lesser offensive numbers that could warrant Ruiz jumping over him as a sub. If he gets the start, Ruiz will need to outlast the other hot starts of Soto and Pudge.

thephaitful: With Pudge headed to the DL, I think Chooch will have a good enough case for Charlie to pick his own guy.

Chooch is my All Star. I don't have any problems with Polly starting, either.

I stand by my stance that Cholly should send a message by adding just Halladay, and only Halladay, as his All-Star pitcher. Complete game, Phils get home field, done and done.

This is at least the 4th or 5th year now where the discussion will turn to "deserving" vs. "popular." It grows tiresome quickly. Thankfully, we should have a game thread coming up in the next couple of hours.

I'm actually a believer that the AS Game SHOULD be started by the guy having the best season. But, even if every single voter voted on this basis, it would still lead to some unjust results, since the guy having the best season in mid-May might not be the guy who's having the best season by mid-July. Raise your hand if you think Alex Gonzalez will have the highest OPS of any American League shortsop by the All-Star break.

I would like the team to have a 3-day vacation, too, donc! And like BAP, I try to vote most deserving - although I confess to fudging that sometimes in order to vote for Phillies players. Not always, but sometimes - last year, at least. This year, I will try to vote most deserving and won't look at who that is until mid-June.

If the fans are voting, then the most deserving will generally not get in.
I always found the All Star game to be fun and nothing more, but it's now the worst of both worlds, because the fans are voting yet the game actually counts.

off topic, but how about the Phils trying to deal for Joaquin Soria He's signed to a 4 mill deal in 2011 6mill 2012 8mill 2013 8.75 2014 seems very manageable depending on what KC wants back

I know he's doing really well this year, but how is Heyward 6th among OFers?


Per Zolecki tweet "Lidge said he felt good after throwing 25 pitches in the bullpen today. Will throw again Thursday. Hopes to be back for ATL series next wk."

Of course if we had Lee we could have Doc start and Lee finish. Oh well.
The Lee discussion is silly.
He was traded becuase reflexively Philly does not yet have the mindset that exists inNew York and Boston--winnin gteams create a buzz and increase the team's value! A perenial winning team signs more talent. Drew did not sign becuase he knew that coming to the Phillies would mean no WS and no fame beyond Philly--a wise decision for him at the time. As was Rollen's for him at the time.
My point is these players would be in Philadelphia now if we had that paying for a winning team attitude! If we had kept Lee the signal to agents and players alike would be that "You want to be in Philly because they will win!" Lots of players will sign with the Yankees for less money becuase they want that WS ring.
I think its indisputable that Lee on the Phillies along with Doc is better than what we have now. All the theorizing and rationalization about how good and wise it is without him is pure fiction.

Roy: I think he has as many RBI as any Phil.

Roy - perhaps because the hype around him has been endless, so even most causal fans know who he is.

RK - "Lots of players will sign with the Yankees for less money becuase they want that WS ring."

Then why do the Yankees almost always overpay for FAs? Texeira, Sabathia, Burnett, etc. didn't sign with the Yanks for less than what they got elsewhere, they specifically signed with the Yankees because they were offering the most money.

I can't think of the last player who accepted a lesser contract from the Yanks than they could get elsewhere, just to experience that "tradition."

Players sign with a team for 1 reason and 1 reason only, and that's money. For some players, winning is in 2nd behind the money. For some it's not. But money is always first and foremost.

Robby J: if you were KC, wouldn't you want the Moon for Soria?

Interesting post on The Max Info Blog on ESPN says Cole Hamels is the 3rd unluckiest pitcher in baseball so far this year yielding 9 more hits than "expected" with a BABIP of .316, 55 points higher than it "should" be.

The endless cliff lee discussion is getting really old.

He's on another team. Even if he gets traded it won't be back to the Phillies.

Deal with it.

Frankly I have soured more on the All-Star Game a bit more ever since they tried to 'make it count.' One of the few things that Selig has done which is strikes as being purely a gimmick. You can at least make some pretty valid points to defend the other things he did including the division realignment, adding the WC, and Interleague play.

As for voting, I generally try to vote for those most statistically deserving. Still, favoritism tends to creep in too. If people want to vote for their favorites, that's fine. Way too much is made out of 'All-Star' selections any way.

Treat it as an exhibition, enjoy seeing some of the best hitters vs. pitchers, and go to the fan-related events in town if you get a shot.

RK - "Lots of players will sign with the Yankees for less money becuase they want that WS ring."

RK, can you give one concrete example of such a player?

"It is Better to have had Lee and lost than not had Lee at all"
Tennyson

Thanks for the laugh, Old Phan!

Great discussion on the Lee trade in the last thread. Looking forward to rehashing that for years to come. Something tells me five years down the road it will make the Abreu trade seem like the release of The Gnome in terms of heated debate.

Also, at what point are we going to put curt in the category of davethom : Coste and clout/myself : Moyer? Other than how terrible the Phils would be in an alternate reality, all this guy does is whine about Lee. The latest gem is it would be "poetic justice" for Lee to become a Met and kill the Phillies. Yeah, as a Phillie fan, when I think of Lee holding a WS trophy in a Met uniform, I think "poetic justice."

I'm not much for the 'You're not a fan if you don't _________" labeling, but there's no way you are a Phils fan if you will feel any kind of satisfaction with that kind of outcome. You can hate the front office all you want, but a fan doesn't translate that into rooting for a team's arch rival under any circumstances. That's projecting your hatred for RAJ and Co. on to the players, which is just silly and as a sports fan, flat-out blasphemous.

I also agree with MG and Old Phan that making the AS Game "count" was an idiotic idea on Selig's part.

I think it is an impossible task for the managers to do all of the following things in the ASG:
1) Play to win
2) But use every player so no one's feelings get hurt that they were left on the bench
3) Make sure you use every pitcher, too, but save your closer for the end, yet don't overuse or over-warm-up a pitcher so as to preserve his arm/protect him from the possibility of injury

It would be much better to have left the ASG as what it still really is: exhibition for the fun of the fans. I am unconvinced that casual baseball fans are really going to tune in to the ASG purely based on the fact that its outcome determines home-field advantage during the WS.

I think you should play 9 innings of the ASG and end in a tie if you must. Or set a limit of 12 innings. This is less objectionable to me than the homefield advantage attachment - The 15-inning AS games are fun.

Go back to the every-other-year model for home-field advantage. Or give it to the team with the best season record, flip a coin. Just don't put conflicting tasks on the AS managers and don't try to pretend the ASG is anything more than exhibition. It's voted as exhibition, it should be played as such.

OK I did n ot have to go far to find one player. Taxiera had a better offer by $5m. from the Nats. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081225144554AAdJDAb

Recall when ARod tried to hold up the Ynakees. Not only didn't he get what he wanted he had to apologize for being too greedy!

Not to take a stand in the general debate, but I believe Beltre turned down a higher offer from the Phils to play in Boston this offseason.

Adrian Beltre turned down a longer-term deal from the A's to sign in Boston, but it wasn't because of Fenway Park, as some have speculated. Beltre, who turned down an offer from the Phillies, told Rob Bradford of WEEI.com that he believed the Red Sox could win it all.

“I thought the team had a real good opportunity to win the World Series," Beltre said. "I focus on the team, not the place I’m playing."

Beltre signed a deal that pays him $9MM this season and includes a player option for 2011.

Not to take what he says as gospel either.

Iceman: I hold the belief that curt is just a Mets troll masquerading as a Phillies fan. So I pretty much ignore his ramblings.

RK: Well... the Nats kind of have to pay a premium because they've been a joke of a franchise. I wonder if it's the most appropriate example. I'm guessing there are others out there.

Iceman - feel free to put me into whatever category you wish. Should I know you? Have you posted here before?

In line with Willard Preacher:
I wonder what would happen if Chollie picked Halladay and filled the rest of the pitching staff with the best closers and set-ups. Used Doc to, say, 110ish pitches and then used the best relievers around on one or two platoon appropriate hitters until the game was over.

People would go nuts, but they'd prolly win.

Iceman: I ran into Curt in a New York Bar last year and I can report to you that he is most definitely a Phillies fan as am I and I also have been accused at times. Being a fan does not mean you have to suspend your critical eye!

CJ: I don't think teh Nats will be a joke for much longer and truth be told we w3ere a joke of franchise--from a performance basis for lord knows how many years. I was around when GrannyHamner came in topitch fromsecond base!!! Is that a joke or what?

As for the ASG, I want the best possible NL team, and the worst possible AL team, on the field. The Phils are baseball's best road team, but it sure would be nice to have home-field in the WS.

One wonders whether this home-field-to-the-ASG-winner would have lasted quite so long if the Yankees and Red Sox were not to have benefitted in 2003, 04, 07, and 09.

RK: There's a difference between having a critical eye and relishing the Mets success at the Phils expense.

And you're right... some day the Nats may not be a joke of a franchise. When it happens, it will be a first.

As I recall Rolens made it clear that he left even though he was offered more money than St. Louis offered becuase he wanted to play on a franchise that had a team that could win--I hated him for doing it but he was right.
Drew similarly did not sign with the Phillies for the same reason. I hated him more becuase he was just a kid and in my mind he had to yet earn his rights.
Why is this such a surprise for anyone?
All of us who have jobs might be willing to take a bit less (although not always) if we could work for the A team!
I am pleased that for the last few years teh FO has shown a greater inclination to spend, although I think the Lee affair was a return to the old days of "we can't afford this" what BS. The park is paid for with our tax dollars and we fill it every night and spend all kinds of dollars to stuff our faces. Give me a break they owe us--the best team money can buy!

RK: You're mistaken on J.D. Drew. 100% mistaken. Phils offered $3M. Drew demanded $10M. Had nothing at all to do with winning.

Drew was told by our favorite agent--who shall remainnameless--that the Phils weren't worth it.

Drew wanted to bust slot. It was all about the money and never had anything to do with winning, no matter how anyone wants to romanticize it. Talk about a guy who's never quite lived up to the hype.

Rolen thought the Phillies weren't committed to winning and wanted out of here, but I tend to think the pressure of being the "man" here got to him as well over time. In his case, he did want to win, but he took it too far at times. Glad he got his win and I wish him the best. He was a beast when he played.

RK: You believe that Scott Boras cared about whether a team was a winner? Never has. Never will. Drew's decision was about one thing and one thing only: Money.

J.D. Drew quote: "We told the Phillies before the (1997) draft we had team willing to pay (the signing figure that Drew and agent Scott Boras had in mind), and if they weren't, please don't draft me."

No mention of winning anywhere in there.

"He was traded becuase reflexively Philly does not yet have the mindset that exists inNew York and Boston--winnin gteams create a buzz and increase the team's value!"

Gag. You don't think the Phillies have a "buzz" and don't realize they can increase value? Which, they have done.

No Phillies Buzz?

Five of the 8 All-Star vote leaders are Phillies. Two others are in 2nd place.

Gotta be buzz somewhere...

I assume that post was written in 2004 and got lost in the tubes.

Hold it I don't want to get into the buzz saw about motivations of people like Boras and Drew.
You are all correct when you say they all talked about the money. But let's face it getting the ring means money too and the Phillies were not the team back then that they are now.
I think making the money is important, perhaps the most impotant, but if you are a ballplayer who is making the money you want to be on a team that is winning and we weren't. I think I have cited sufficient data that shows there are players out there who are so good the only thing left for them is to be on a winning team and they will take a little less to get on that team-that's a fact.

Beard: I do thinkt he Phillies have created a buzz--it is why I who live in NY gets to see them more often on ESPN and Fox. I just want management to get with it and keep it going by making smart moves--by all accounts the Lee trade was not a smart move.
Hey I would love nothing better for you guys to call me up a couple of years from now and remind me that one or more of the prospects we got for Lee is now a star but I think if we had Lee we could have traded another proven player for either another proven player or similar prospects. For sure moer people would have signed with us and they would have taken a smaller bonus for the right to be on a winning team.

Not to defend the lovely and talented JD Drew, but the Phils in 1997 are not the Phils of today.
Then again, I've never forgiven Curt Flood, and he had good reason to do what he did.

RK: Your overall point is valid. J.D. Drew does not support your point.

Yo, new thread.

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