Part of

« Friday: Phillies’ bullpen can’t hold down Nationals | Main | Game chat: Doc checks in to Philadelphia tonight »

Friday, April 16, 2010


.258/.303/.323 is hitting?

Thanks for the update. For those of us who don't mine the minor league websites for every detail, this is quite helpful. Enjoy your weekend, boys!

BTW, what are the chances a starting pitcher not named Halladay pitches 6 full innings, or actually goes into the 7th, this weekend?

"...not being much of a strikeout guy..."

Sounds like clout's favorite kind of major league starting pitcher.

yoso, when you're a 20 year old in AA known as a defensive wizard, yeah, that's hitting.

****.258/.303/.323 is hitting?****

It is for Galvis.

Andy: haha. nicely done.

I'm glad Galvis is showing improvement at AA at such a young age, but my hope is that J-Roll remains our shortstop for the next 8 or so years, until he retires. There's no way any defensive upgrade Galvis might bring can offset the drop in production from one of the consistently best SS's in the game that Rollins is.

Not sure if it was brought up yet, but Madson was stupid yesterday.

Not bad. Stupid.

I don't care that he gave up runs. It happens. I care how he gave them up.

How can you even give pudge anything remotely close to a hittable pitch there. First base is open and Capps is on deck?

Come on. You are a professional ballplayer. Try to know the situation. It is terrible to let him beat you in that situation.

Brian G,

I'm with you. Would love nothing more to see Utley and Rollins' numbers retired as lifetime Phils, and a statue of Jimmy and Chase turning a DP in front of the stadium.

Appreciate the minors' update. I was wondering how some of these players were doing, but simply don't have the time to pull this type of summary together myself.

Gsl, if I remember correctly, that pitch fooled Pudge and was falling out of the zone. He kinda reached out, held up, then flicked it into the outfield. I wouldn't ordinarily call that a bad pitch, though you make a point about situation. Anything can happen, even when you try to pitch around a batter. Madson had decent command yesterday, so perhaps forcing a bases loaded pinch hitter would have worked out better.

Gsl: I thought the same thing. I figured they would intentionally walk Pudge with first base open. Capps was on-deck (hitting in the 7-hole after the double switch), so it would force Riggleman's hand. You figure he would have let Capps bat, since he wanted his closer for the 9th. I just didn't get it. To me, that's on the coaching staff. But, you're right -- Madson shouldn't have given him anything to hit.

Perhaps I am not recalling the 9th inning correctly, though.

Rbill. That's how I recall it. Either capps hits or they have to take him out and we face whoever they had left over in their bullpen.

Looking forward to seeing the R-Phils Mon.-Wed. at the Burg.
I know,it's only one time,but don't see Baez helping. Saw too much of him with the O's.

I'm contemplating a trip out to Reading in when Harrisburg comes to town to see Strasburg. If they keep his 5 day rotation, he'd be due up on the first night of their visit, so there's even some wiggle room for weather.

I wonder if his fan club is the Strasburg Railroad?

Does Drago's comparison of Gillies to Golson and Taylor worry anyone?

Andy: I just want pitchers who win. Unlike you, I don't care how they do it.

clout: Yes! An absolute yes.

clout - pulling that a bit out of context, but it is funny. You also left our Bourn who may be on his way to a career season coming off a healthy BB and OBP jump last year. Bourn is the one Astro bright spot right now.

Gsl - It was a changeup that just missed location and stayed over the plate too much. It wasn't a terrible pitch. Pudge just did a good job of staying behind enough on it and poking it to LF.

I doubt Seattle gave up anyone as promising as Golson and Taylor. Wasn't the package a deaf outfielder, an oft-injured pitcher, and a one-armed catcher?

Even though Pudge is a bit long in the tooth, he's still a pretty good hitter. Sometimes good hitting beats good pitching. I still was calling for them to walk Pudge in that situation, but what are you going to do?

I think people aren't giving the Nats' hitters enough credit. That being said, they had maybe 2 pitchers on that staff able to shut down the Phils' lineup at any given time. Brutal. For Nats' fans...all 12 of them.

The best fielding SS of the 1950s was 4-time All-Star Chico Carrasquel (career OPS+ 82) of Venezuela.

The best fielding SS of the 1960s was 10-time All-Star Luis Aparicio (career OPS+ 82) of Venezuela.

The best fielding SS of the 1990s was 3-time All-Star Omar Vizquel (career OPS+ 83) of Venezuela.

The best fielding SS of the 2010s will be.....

I think it's generally a really bad idea to walk the bases loaded, so I had no problem with Madson pitching to him. I don't know if it was a good pitch or a bad one, since the results were bad I don't want to call it a good pitch. But it was clearly out of the strike zone. Madson didn't give him anything at all to hit there, and I think it was just a terrific piece of hitting by Pudge. We've all seen far worse pitches get out a whole lot of the time.

The best fielding SS of the 2010s will be.....0-time (so far) All-Star Elvis Andrus (career OPS+ 82) of Venezuela.

How old will Freddy be in the 2020s?

Lidge says he is feeling "100% healthy" and would like to be back on the roster sometime during the next homestand.

Is it me or it pretty crazy to trump a single scoreless inning of relief (where the leadoff hitter walked and was CS) against a single A team as much as Lidge and the Phils have the past 2 days? It's ridiculous.

It was his first scoreless inning of relief in 3 WEEKS against single A hitters.

Why are the Phils in such a hurry to apparently rush Lidge back when the results still have been less than stellar & bullpen has been a huge weakness in the early going?

If Lidge was right around his normal velocity and had put together 4-5 strong rehab appearances, I wouldn't mind seeing him back in the next week or so. That just isn't the case though.

Let him pitch another 3-4 times in the over the next 2 weeks. If he strong results & no pain, then bring him back in early May.

Actually, Riggleman smartly had Adam Kennedy in the on deck circle and Capps was in the hole. When the runs scored he made the swtich and kept Capps in the game.

At least we know what Freddy's career OPS+ will be: 82 or 83.

clout - "I just want pitchers who win."

A new cloutian statistical anomaly. Pitchers can now win games not just by themselves, but also independent of their performance.

Very, very interesting.

MG: Did he strike anyone out? If so, he should come up. Runs allowed are irrelevant as long as he can strike someone out.

MG: We have no idea. I'm as skeptical as you on Lidge--personally I would take a lot of caution and even when he came back, would not put him in the closer's role.

However, it all depends on things we can't know--what the coaches think of his stuff, mechanics, how his arm feels, etc. The results don't matter. You say he's giving up runs to Single-A hitters, but we really have no idea what he's out there trying to do. It's like Spring Training. You can't judge rehab appearance by results.

Again, I'm not saying he's ready to come back and be effective--I doubt he is. I just don't think we can use results from a rehab appearance as our barometer.

Andy: U dunt rede zo goode

Mg- I don't care if it was a good pitch or not. I am not even arguing that. They should have never been pitching to him in the first place.

Dan- You don't trust Madson to get Capps out but you want him to go after Pudge? Don't get it

It's a shame Ozzie Smith wasn't from Venezuela. Then his career OPS+ could have been 82-83, too.

I'm with Clout. I hate when pitchers strike guys out. It just makes no sense. Why would you want a sure out, when instead you could have a ball put in play and hope it goes to where a fielder is, hope the fielder gets it cleanly, and then hope if there's a throw that the 1st baseman catches it. It seems way better to rely on all those things than to just get a strikeout.

Why do we even have strikeouts? Everyone knows a good pitcher should be able to magically will his teammates to make plays for him. That's the definition of a good pitcher--a guy with the best teammates. Right?

Gosh. I just looked up Oz. He was a 15 times AS and a 13 times GG. Before his last four years as a Padre his career OPS+ was 93.

Andy: Ozzie was born in Mobile, home of Henry Aaron and Satchel Paige. That bumped him up from 83 to 87.

clout - You mean when I copied and pasted your quote? Interesting.

Jack: I love strikeouts. But unlike you, I like other kinds of outs too. And, also unlike you, I think runs allowed is a more important stat than strikeouts.

It really bothers me how (like yesterday) the Phils' relievers consistently allow runners on first to advance to 2nd without a throw. It cost them a run on Pudge's hit plus it takes a force at 2nd out of play. Just because they hold a lead, doesn't mean they should let base runners trot around the diamond uncontested.

Andy: No, when you said that:

"I just want pitchers who win."
"Pitchers can now win games not just by themselves, but also independent of their performance

I'm still amazed how quickly the Philly media (Hagen, Murphy) and some posters here are turning on Hamels' developing a cutter. First off, it seems to be working pretty well--as Murphy detailed, he's thrown 27 cutters, only 2 have ended up as hits, and 20 have been for strikes.

Everyone was excited in ST about Hamels developing new pitches. Now they want him to abandon it after two starts? I don't get it. His curveball seemed like it could be a plus pitch when he first came up (his first K in his first start was a curveball that froze Griffey), but has since seemed to decline in effectiveness (the Fangraphs numbers back this up). If he wants to replace that pitch with a cutter, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I'm willing to give him some more time to work on it, especially because the early results have been promising.

Mike. Let the pinch hit Kennedy. Who would the nats pitch in the bottom of the ninth then?

Was yesterday's game a signal that the bullpen simply can't be used for every game ( @6 innings per),except when Halliday pitches?

It also bothers me (and I know I may be exaggerating a little) how the relief pitchers can only throw for 1 inning. If the starter leaves after just a few innings (like Happ & Kendrick this week) and the relief pitchers can only throw 1 inning, we only need 1 out of 4 or 5 to have a bad day and we lose the game. I wish Charlie would leave a guy in who's throwing strikes and getting outs.

Clout: Speaking of pitchers who don't strike enough guys out, how's your boy Joe Savery doing? He still looking like a good starting pitching prospect?

Gsl: huh? Do you really want to go there? OK, whatever:

1) walking the bases loaded allows not just a hit, but also any on base event to drive in a run. FWIW, Capps has a lifetime OBP of .333, granted only in 6 plate appearances :) But as Mike C above pointed out, Kennedy was in the on base circle. The odds of Kennedy getting on base and therefore driving in a run is greater than the odds of Pudge getting a hit and therefore driving in a run.
2) If you want to look at it from a general point, look at the expected runs matrix at Baseball Prospectus ( Looking at 2009 for a full data set, you can see that with 2 outs, with men on 2nd and 3rd (as it was after the stolen base) the expected runs scored was .56. With the bases loaded and 2 outs, the expected runs scored jumps to .75! You are knowingly increasing the expected runs by almost 50%! Do that 100 times, and instead of giving up 56 runs, your managing would give the other team 75!!

So, to conclude, yes, it's generally a terrible idea to intentionally walk the bases loaded espicially with 2 outs.

Walking IRod was a bad play all around. Madson was struggling with his command to begin with and Joe West had an erratic strike zone on top of it. Bad spot to put Madson in with the bases loaded and Kennedy coming up.

I wish Scott Mathesison was up with the big club


You couldn't be more right about holding the runners on first. Lidge is notorious for it. If it's a managerial strategy, they need to change it.

Two hits = 1 run, almost every time.

Clout - I would rather have a bullpen of Nuke LaLooshs than say Clay Condreys any day of the week.

The reason I harp about Lidge and his velocity is that it was clear that he wasn't 100% healthy in spring training because his velocity was so down on his 4-seemer. Red flag.

Do you drive with the 'Oil Light' indicator on? Hope not. Repairing an engine is the most expensive thing to fix on a car.

"I just don't think we can use results from a rehab appearance as our barometer."

Depends who's doing the rehabbing. If it's a pitcher who's coming off the worst season in the history of baseball for a closer, I kinda think it's pretty reasonable to expect some results before trumpeting him as your soon-to-be closer.

@A-Train -- I know you are exaggerating.. but you seem to miss Figueroa's and Chad Durbin's outings. Even Madson has had at least one 1+ inning pitched.

but some guys are just MORE effective with an inning or less pitched per game over the course of a season. And will be able to rebound quicker so they can pitch more frequently...

You want your bullpen to pitch less innings per outing and be available more frequently...

Yes making the pitcher beat you or removing their closer from the game would have been terrible. You guys are awesome.

Clout, I too want pitchers who just win.

bap: Like I said, there's no way in hell I would make Lidge the closer immediately upon return. I would stick him in the bullpen as a right-handed reliever along with Durbin, Contreras and Baez, and make him earn his way back to the top where, if he pitches better than Madson, he could assume the closer's role.

Jack: Surprised you could make such a rookie mistake as confusing the message and the messengers. Hagen and Stark are merely reporting what professional scouts and Jim Kaat told them about the cutter and posters here are commenting on that.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, just as the pros are. I know which one is more likely to be right.

Gsl: Sarcasm is the last refuge of the witless.

A-Train: When it comes to your back-end relievers, you probably don't want them throwing more than 1 inning very often. But, as to the rest of the bullpen, I totally agree with your point.

Most relievers are in the bullpen precisely because they have spotty control. That, in turn, makes them particularly susceptible to bad days. So when you've got a reliever in the game who is throwing strikes and getting people out, why mess with a good thing? Far too often we see Cholly (and, in fairness, many other managers) arbitrarily pull an effective reliever out of the game after just one inning, even though the reliever is pitching well.

Jack: In re: Savery, as I've posted before, his second half dropoff in velocity last season was alarming and suggestive of an arm problem. I haven't read anything about him this season, but if his velocity is topping out at 88 mph, which is what it was doing in the second half of last season, he's in big trouble regardless of the cause. Could be yet another Rice pitcher with a wrecked arm.

Clout: No thoughts on Joe Savery? Ok. Personally, I think he and Kendrick are gonna provide a deadly lefty-righty combo for the Iron Pigs for years to come. A sort of International League version of Koufax and Drysdale which terrifies hitters.

I do not know why everyone here likes or loves Madson. I worry more when he pitches over just about any other pitcher we have. Some days hes lights out and others he actual smells out the joint.
I may like to see Herdon pitch more, hes looked pretty good in the short time of his major league career. At least this will give Manuel the knowledge to keep him or not.

Clout: Sorry, posted that before I saw your response. Looks like we agree that Savery's career could be in trouble.

Clout, I too want pitchers who just win, baby.

Jack: We're basically on the same page with Lidge. But even a lesser bullpen role is still a potentially important role. Hence, I would want to see Lidge have 4 or 5 decent minor league outings in a row before I'd let him displace one of the relievers currently on our roster.

Clout: Don't worry, I'm well aware that the scouts know way more than I possibly could (although I do wonder what Jim Kaat knows about Cole Hamels--wasn't he doing Yankee coverage for most of the past 15 years?)

But of course, reporters and columnists get to choose what to write (and Murphy was doing his own writing, beyond what Hagen and Stark were doing, which was simply being a messenger). So they had to find those opinions interesting enough (and relevant enough) to choose them over anything else to write about. And they have to know that they help control what becomes a storyline--so if they write a lot about scouts' questioning Hamels' use of the cutter, all of a sudden Hamels' use of the cutter gets questioned by everybody who reads them. And personally, I just think it's not a story after two starts, especially when it's appeared effective and when the stats indicate Hamels' curveball had declined to a below-average pitch.

In pitchers who just win you must put Moyer in that category. Gives up lots of runs but we score more.

I like pitchers who just win one for me!

Gsl: The Nats could've thrown English out to start the inning and then gone to Bruney after Howard. Given how successful English has been against our lefties this season, I don't think facing English and Bruney would be preferable to facing Capps. Maybe Riggleman was bluffing with Kennedy, but consider Capps' struggles last year, I doubt Riggleman would've sacrificed an opportunity to score in order to leave Capps in the game. We needed to limit the damage in the top of the 9th, so Madson really had to pitch to Pudge there.

@gsl -- it's not like Capps is K-Rod or Rivera. It's Matt Capps. He sucks. I mean... Brad Lidge last year sucks. It was in the phillies favor to keep him in the game...

I know one pitcher who can win a game all by himself. Me!

Still scratching my head on how Flande got anyone out on Sunday let alone giving up only hit which should have been caught over six innings. Unless the Reading stadium gun needs recalibrated he threw only two pitches over 85 MPH. One at 86 and the other at 87. His other pitches were in the low 80's with a curve to lefties in the high 70's. Since Aumont has yet to show much velocity, they appear not to have any starters with power arms at AA which usually means none of them will ever pitch very many inning above AAA.

Our old pal Pedro Feliz, playing first base, tries to pick up a bunt that was headed foul, can't grab it, allowing go ahead run to score in Chicago.

Dan- You're right! How could I use sarcasm! Especially not here on Beerleaguer!

Murgatoid- You are absolutely right that they could have done those things. My wish was that the Phillies made them do those things. I also agree that they needed to limit the damage, which, in my mind means not letting Rodriquez beat you there.

Leaving soon for the ballpark to see if this Halladay fellow can pitch. Regardless, Sanchez is a career 2-4/5.40ERA/1.500WHIP vs. the Phils, so I'm hopeful that Doc will get more than 2 runs in supports of his efforts.

G-Town Dave: Should be a good one down there, I'm looking forward to my first visit to the Bank this year as well. Think Halladay might get a nice ovation when he takes the mound? I'm pretty fired up.

Dan- To be fair, you are right about the sarcasm. It usually ends good discussion and doesn't contribute a whole lot. Although it is pretty funny at times. However, I was typing on an iphone in the car and it was all I could muster at that moment.

My point about this being beerleaguer remains though. Sarcasm threshold needs to be high.

And to the original argument: My baseball senses tell me that you can't let a hot hitter beat you when there is a base open and the pitcher/cold PH option is due up next.

Your baseball senses tell you it is dangerous to walk the bases loaded which I generally agree with. However, with that part of the lineup you have to trust Madson to throw strikes to the pitcher/Kennedy. If one of those two beat you, so be it, they win. But make one of those two beat you.

Jack: Yeah, I think Roy's introduction might garner a polite clap or two. :-) I had been expecting to see Moyer until just a couple of days ago, so this is a nice surprise ... plus my Dad is up visiting from FL, & it's always good to be able to go to a ballgame w/ him. 40% chance of thunderstorms throughout the evening, though. If it rains, I hope it moves though fast.

I like pitchers that hold cool citrus-ades on the back patio served in matching glasses which also match the tasteful outdoor furniture. The tea towels and napkins should also match.

That's a winning combination!

I like pitchers who win, because if they don't, there's a good chance they'll lose.

Seriously, clout, I would hope that you would not use won-loss record as a methodology for predicting continuing success as a pitcher. You're (smug but usually) smarter than that. "Pitchers who win," by itself, is a useless statement about what is likely to occur in the future. So, yes, it is important to know how they win.

Do they win because they pitched well or because they received insane run support? Did they win because their opponents have difficulty hitting the ball well or because they got really, really lucky? If you want to stock a rotation with pitchers that will help you in the future you better want the guys who pitch well, whom the other teams have trouble hitting, and not the guys who got lucky one year and need their own team to pile on the runs.

I'm willing to bet that the Phils could win a lot of games with a pedestrian pitching staff; but they would, I am more willing to bet, win more games with good quality pitching. Mr. Kendrick, to whom we are of course referring, is very unlikely to provide good quality pitching this year. Maybe someday he'll be a major league pitcher - if he can generate groundballs and get lefties out, for instance - but that time is not right now.

(I think I just offered a pretty cogent description of my position, so I expect you to revert to misquoting me or claiming that I'm basing my argument on some stat that I didn't even bring up.)

I like pitchers who drill, baby, drill.

I want a pitcher, not a glass of water.

Someone repost this in the game thread, you know, for your favorite beerleaguer stoner:


(We'd like to thank you, Cholly...)

I have to say there has been a notable improvement in Murphy's blog since this offseason. His stuff here on Happ today was really solid:

Basically a good summary that Happ's velocity has been down a bit since the spring on his fastball with some good info mixed in and that he has been having command issues too.

Happ did start slow last year too as a starter but Murphy did raise the interesting possibility if Happ is pitching with a bit of sorness/injury.

Andy: I completely agree. Striking a lot of hitters out is obviously more important than winning the game.

Yo, New Thread

The comments to this entry are closed.

EST. 2005

Top Stories


Rotoworld News

Follow on Twitter

Follow on Facebook

Contact Weitzel