Phillies

Transactions & Such

Winter leagues

Part of CSNPhilly.com


« Game chat: Halladay, Hudson have at it in Atlanta | Main | Minor transaction: Phillies sign C Torre Langley »

Thursday, April 22, 2010

Comments

That was the most impressive defensive game by this team that I've seen in a long, long time. Howard's stretch on Castro's throw left my jaw dropped.

I like a good pitcher duel and well defended game more than a slugfest and last night definately did not dissapoint. I can't watch the highlights enough!

I've been watching the highlights on my phone all morning. I think it was the best defensive game of Howard's career. And Castro, too, has been very solid. Hard to remember a Phillies reservist capable of making some of these plays.

Roy Halladay = Greg Maddox with a better fastball. He's a rare treat to watch, and may end up being the best pitcher ever to wear the "P" on his cap.

Greg V. - Agreed, that 2-0 game might hold up to any of the 15-20 run stompings they eventually will put on someone later on in this season as one of the best gamse to watch live.

Unless its a 20runner on the Mets, against Johan, in CitiField - that would be hard to top.

That's good writing, JW. Nice work.

Steve Carlton?

Halladay:
#1 in baseball in VORP at 17, which is not a bad season for a lot of players. The #2 pitcher i at 11.
#1 in baseball in innings pitched at 33. #2 is at 29.
Only #22 in Pitcher Abise Points (the max # of pitches in one outing so far is only 113, last night).

He's not likely to get hurt because despite his CGs, he doesn't throw that many pitches (he only threw 10 more than Hudson, who only lasted 6 last night).

An ace for all time.

What's next, a veteran surgeon performing an autopsy on Bobby Cox's psyche?

NEPP, it will be difficult to beat Carlton, but Halladay is simply amazing. Due to him pitching so much in the AL, he may not catch him in total work, but he may pass him in peak production as a Philly

It was fantastic, but Phillies baseball at its finest involves people ducking for cover in the outfield seats.

But Doc... wow. It just can't be as easy as he makes it look.

"face melter" That sums it up perfectly.

I'd expect to see Dobbs in at third tonight. Give Polly a day or two, no need to rush it.

My vote for all time Phillies ace goes to Grover Cleveland Alexander, but it was sure nice watching Doc Halladay last night. He sure looks like a big guy when he's batting.

Who is that skinny slick fielding 1st baseman? Facially, he bears a striking resemblance to Ryan Howard!

Polanco will probably miss Thursday's game with elbow bruise. - Salisbury

Plavix Halladay - prevents heart attacks every fifth day.

The Phils have had fantastic outings by starting pitchers for three straight games, yet won only one of those games. Is anyone else really frustrated by that?

Actually, the starters have been strong since the first inning of Moyer's start.

Last night's game was as good as it gets in April.

I'm not old enough to have seen Alexander ( LF- just kidding),but I think Roberts and Carlton were the best Phils pitchers over the long haul.

Lee sure looked good for the brief time we had him last year. That almost identical stat comparison over their first 4 PHL games is quite interesting.

Hope Polanco's injury turns out minor. Looked ominous when it happened.

K-Town - not really frustrated. Won some games wehre the starters were pretty mediocre, too. Them's the breaks.

Friday night's game in Arizona, will be a Beerleaguer's dream matchup:

Heidi Hamels vs. Anna Benson


Insert your own jokes here.


The Phils are supposed to see 2 former castoff's this weekend....Benson on Friday and Rod Lopez on Sunday.

It was amazing to see Halladay for the first time. It did seem as if, like Jason said, every pitch had its own purpose.

You get the feel that if he misses the strike zone, it's deliberate, that he's just setting the batters up for the next pitch which will paint the black. Even when runners got on, he seemed in control of the situation and as if he had the upper hand. I imagine that the batters feel that way as well. Pretty incredible to watch.

The only times I noticed any emotion were when he briefly celebrated that incredible double play with a fist pump, and another time when he seemed to snap a ball that was thrown to him out of the air right after a third straight blooper/bleeder found its way in for a hit.

Seems like such a perfect fit for this team, obviously as an ace, but also attitude wise.

Hopeful that the Halladay/Lee stat comparison will start to diverge, seeing how Lee had a bunch of mediocre starts for us last year that are mostly overlooked in retrospect.

I honestly thought he let on that 1 baserunner in the later innings just to challenge himself. He got 3 outs on the next 4 pitches. It was ridiculous to watch.

I think that was the best he's been so far this season.

In the "right place at the right time" category, let's not forget Valdez charging that dribbler to retire Glaus. Polly doesn't charge that ball if he's still in the ballgame.

Yeah...Valdez really turned some heads with that play. Polly never would have charge that hard. IF there is one weakness in Polly's defensive game its that he's a bit weaker on charging ground balls.

Doohickey: He doesn't? What does he do? Just let it dribble down the line for an unchallenged hit?

I dunno, I'm not trying to nitpick or anything, I recognize how amazing he's been, but Halladay didn't look quite as immaculate as that write-up or these comments seem to imply. He clearly had started to wear down by the 7th, with a bunch of balls up in the zone getting hit pretty hard. But what impressed me so much about him was his ability to work through it, to continue to pitch to contact and have faith in the fielders behind him. As we saw, that faith paid off, and he was able to get the CG shutout where almost any other pitcher would have been pulled. That, to me, was what made last night's effort so special.

denny b, I am NOT a castoff. I signed with the D-backs because I had a shot at making the rotation in AZ, which I did.

And in case you missed it, the Phillies were 4 - 1 in games I started in 2009. Those wins were 2/3 of the victory margin in the division.

Show some respect, dude.

timr, that's what great pitchers do. That's what separates them. They make it through even when they're tired, even when their pitches get left up...even when its the 4th time through.

That's what so impressive about him.

You could even go two starts before Moyer's. Moyer's first inning, and maybe Happ's effective command struggles, are the only red marks. Phils starters since the 15th

Happ: 5.1 IP, 1 R, 1.76 WHIP (6BB)
Halladay: 8 IP, 2 R, 1 WHIP
Moyer: 6 IP, 5 R, 1.167 WHIP (7 SO)
Hamels: 8 IP, 2 R, .875 WHIP (0 BB)
Kendrick: 8 IP, 0 R, .750 WHIP
Halladay: CG, 0 R, .667 WHIP

I'd actually agree with Timr. Halladay wasn't quite as clean this outing as in his previous outings. Through about the 6th inning, he was every bit as clean as in previous outings. But then he got hit around in the 7th and he literally didn't throw a single first-pitch strike in either the 8th or 9th. Nonetheless, even when Halladay's a little off his game, he's still better than 95% of the pitchers in baseball. He did benefit from some truly terrific defense, though. Without those plays from Vic & Utley, we'd be spending this morning lamenting the Phillies' 3-2 loss, which would have been their 4th in a row.

One benefit that's overlooked is much like Cliffy, Halladay works quickly, thus keeping our stellar defense on their toes. It leads to more spectacular plays like we witnessed last night and isn't necessarily a case of luck--but of positioning and readiness. When Moyer pitches, it can be an eternity in an at bat. The D must love it when the Doc is on the mound.

I'm still in awe of Roy, who is able to work out of jams even without his best stuff.

Yeah, the starting pitching has been the story lost due to the missing bats.

Funny how as soon as the weather turned cold, our hitters did to, and our pitchers improved. Hmmmmmmm.

Seriously, if we get anything like the pitching we've had this past week all season, we'll win 110 games. I'm not kidding.

Given Lee's superhuman performance in the playoffs, it would be hard for Doc to contribute more to the team that Lee did last year, even considering Lee's drop off during the second part of 2009.

But there are three huge factors which add to the value of getting Doc rather than just holding on to Lee. First, his ability to complete games. Second, his ability to go three games in a seven game series. Third, he's guaranteed to be around for a while.

The ability to pitch 3 games in a 7 game series and have Hamels go 2 more is why Halladay is better than Lee. And the fact that Halladay is simply a better pitcher regardless.

phlipper: Actually it wouldn't be hard for Doc to do more than Lee did last year. Doc will pitch on short rest. Lee didn't. Whether it was a coaching decision or not... Lee only pitched on full rest. That won't happen with Doc.

All of this, of course, is contingent on getting to the playoffs.

By the way...

I love bap's classic view on Halladay's awesome performance. The idea that baseball is a game of inches is nothing new. You can point to any game and say, "What if?" bap only seems to do that when talking about things going badly.

Good to see we're all settling into our familiar roles!

First pitch strikes may be one of these most commonly discussed but underproved things in baseball. Halladay's start wasn't immaculate in the sense that he didn't pitch a no hitter and had one tough inning. 1 BB, 71 strikes (24 looking) in 113 pitches, 15 GB, 1 LD.

re what to expect from Halladay

K9
2009: 7.83
2010: 7.64

BB9
2009: 1.32
2010: .82

HR9
2009: .83
2010: .27

LOB%
2009: 79%
2010: 90.6%

LD%
2009: 20.5
2010: 24.1

"NEPP: IF there is one weakness in Polly's defensive game its that he's a bit weaker on charging ground balls."

I could not disagree more with this statement. I beg you to find someone who DVR'd games this year and rewatch(or watch the first time most likely after that comment).

I actually can't think of a hard hit ball that polanco has actually kept out of left, while he has made about 99% of the plays in front of him.

CJ, it's also nice to see Sophist around a little more frequently, to lend some sanity to the board.

awh: ill second that. trading in-season Sophist posts with offseason youknowwho posts is the best thing that has happened to beerleaguer this year.

Sophist, based on the stats you posted above, that's a 2.03 ERA in 44.1 IP for the SP over those 6 games.

Dan is right, if the SP continues to do that, they'll win 110 games - at the very least.

Cliff Lee is not the pitcher Roy Halladay is. Just look at each pitcher since 2005. You can't base your whole opinion on a guy based on a few starts in October (easily forgetting his final 7 starts of the regular season and the fact that he was left off his own team's postseason roster only a year before).

Lee would be the Phils second best pitcher, but he doesn't compare to Halladay.

Halladay's gotta fight Schilling & Bunning to be the #4 starter in the Phillies all time great rotation (assuming normal decline) behind Alexander, Carleton, and Roberts. Depending on how the next few years turnout he could challenge Roberts or fall down to the swingman. I don't see him passing the top two guys (adjusting for era, of course)

HH - You said it re: the speed of the game when Halladay pitches. It not only keeps the Phils' defense alert, it keeps the opposing batters off balance.

Can't wait to see him against the Yankees, but I'm sure they'll call time out after every pitch like they did in the WS.

And thanks for putting things in perspective re: the strong starts. I shouldn't be so greedy so early in the season.

"Actually it wouldn't be hard for Doc to do more than Lee did last year. "

I don't know. I thought that Lee's performance in the playoffs was among the best athletic clutch performances I've ever seen. It was surreal.

I thought the Valdez play was OK, it didn't really blow my mind. Unless you are a complete butcher you should make that play.

awh - those aren't all earned runs. a couple were unearned. Phils are 2-4 in those games.

Sophist is neglecting his work.

CJ: Here's what I find funny. I said Halladay was plenty good, but wasn't quite as sharp as in his previous outings -- and would have had the stat line to prove it if it weren't for some great defense. If awh or NEPP or sophist had made that same observation, everyone would have jumped in the fray and agreed with it. If MG or G-Town Dave or I make it, then it immediately gets spun into MG and G-Town Dave and BAP being negative. If saying that "he wasn't quite as sharp as in previous games" = "being negative," then there's almost nothing I could say, other than rah-rah-rah, that you wouldn't find to be negative.

****I could not disagree more with this statement. I beg you to find someone who DVR'd games this year and rewatch(or watch the first time most likely after that comment).

I actually can't think of a hard hit ball that polanco has actually kept out of left, while he has made about 99% of the plays in front of him.****

I've watched every game but 1 so far this year (I didn't watch the Sunday game as it was a day game and I was out). Polly has been playing pretty deep and its hurt him on weaker hit ground balls that he's had to charge. I can recall at least 3-4 infield singles that resulted from him being back so far (further than Feliz typically was).

Not bashing his overall defense as he's been plenty good but that's what it looks like to me watching.

****Can't wait to see him against the Yankees, but I'm sure they'll call time out after every pitch like they did in the WS.****

Simple solution: Buzz the first batter to do it. Oh, you're gonna step out? Here's one up by your chin.

phlipper, think Cole Hamels circa 2008 playoffs if you think Lee can do what he did last year every year. You cannot look at any pitcher's 4 or 5 starts, no matter how dominant, and expect they will be able to do that every year.

Halladay isn't going to be this good all year. But his past history shows he's incredibly likely to be way better than Lee, or almost anyone else, over the year, and in the playoffs. He won't outpitch what Lee did last year in the WS, but I'd put money on him outdoing whatever Lee might be able to do this year, should they both make the playoffs.

phlipper - I agree, but I'm not sure what the point is. After all (putting 2009 hat on), it would be hard for Lee to do more than Hamels last year. 227 IP, 1.082 WHIP. In the postseason, 35 IP, 7 R, .914 WHIP. What's my point?

"Making 113 pitches – each with its own valid purpose – the right-hander improved to 4-0 with his 16th career shutout"

What would Hamels' "purpuse/pitch" ratio look like. In 09, probably something around 47%.

So, on an unrelated note, is anyone else stunned that Carlos Zambrano is now a reliever but Carlos Silva remains a starter for the Cubs?

I mean, what a fall from grace for Big Z (who seems to desperately need a change of scenery..or more vitamins perhaps). Or maybe they shouldn't have rode him so hard in his early 20s.

Dan - Excellent point! ha.

BAP - That's fair response. I will say, it may be the way in which you make your point. I probably wouldn't have written that last sentence ("today we'd all be talking about their 4th straight loss") while I'd be much more likely to say something like that yesterday (one out away from a shut-out win, a fairly clean save by Madson, and a dominant SP performance).

Not that either POV is more valid than the other.

"phlipper, think Cole Hamels circa 2008 playoffs if you think Lee can do what he did last year every year."

My whole point is that it would be unrealistic to expect that Halladay could match Lee's playoff performance of last year. It was a freakish event.

Again, my whole point is that while it would be incredibly hard for Doc to perform at that level, the team is better off with Doc inked to a longer-term contract.

Obviously, Halladay has yet to prove that he can sustain his dominance for as long as Carlton did so, at this point, you can't really put the 2 in the same discussion. But I was recently looking at their numbers side-by-side and was surprised to see that, on average, Halladay has had a somewhat better year-to-year ERA+ since 2002 than Carlton did in his prime years with the Phillies. ERA+ is park-adjusted and, hence, era adjusted as well (since the league averages for the particular era are inherent in the park adjustment).

Having the better ERA+ doesn't mean that Halladay is better than Carlton was. But it DOES strongly suggest that he is more dominant, relative to the rest of the league, than Carlton was, relative to the competition he played against. Of course, you could make a pretty strong case that the league average pitcher was also substantially better in Carlton's day, since there were fewer teams & a lot of 4-man rotations.

Speaking of "ERA+", anyone else notice that B-R.com's ERA+ and OPS+ stats are gone? Its just a blank field now for both. I assume its a site maintenance issue but its a bit annoying for someone like me that sometimes obsessively looks at random players for hours on end. It went down sometime last night/early this morning.

Wow. I am loving Doc thus far and barring an unforeseen injury or (I think unlikely) sudden drop-off in his effectiveness as he get older, I am looking forward to a very good run here. Four games, though, seems a little soon to start comparing him to great Phillies pitchers. He was fantastic during his years in Toronto, but in most cases we look to sustained greatness over a long career as the truest measure. I hope he wins 20+ games this season, but I won't be surprised when he tosses some clunkers or has a stretch of mediocrity. Isn't that what pitchers usually do?

That said, the closest comparison over time will certainly be with Bunning given his success in both leagues. Senator Doc? It will take time for him to replace Lefty in my heart. One of my most enduring baseball memories is repeated visuals of Willie Stargetll (or George Foster or Dave Parker) thunderously striking out on one of those great sliders that bounced in front of the plate. Of course, I was pretty entertained by several of the called strike 3's last night with each successive Brave displaying a "what the f***" look on his face. All in all a terrific game.

" Four games, though, seems a little soon to start comparing him to great Phillies pitchers."

I agree. As good as Doc has been, it has yet to be proven that he will do so well once hitters have faced him more and know his repertoire of pitches better. His toughest innings have been later in games. That said - some of that is undoubtedly due to some tiring.

And his long-term record in the AL East speaks well to his ability to get hitters out even after they have faced him often.

sophist: Fair enough. I do have a tendency to throw gratuitous negativity into my posts.

phlipper: Agree with you about it being hard to top Lee's playoff performance in terms of numbers. But, as some posters pointed out the last time this topic came up, Lee has never pitched a game on 3 days rest, whereas Halladay has not only done so, but has great numbers in that situation. This means that, assuming we haven't used him in a Game 7 of the last series, he could pitch 3 times in a 7-game series, whereas Lee could only pitch twice. So instead of losing 4 games to 2, like we did to the Yankees, we would only lose 4 games to 3.

I agree with BAP that he wasn't as sharp from the 7th inning on. To me he seemed a little tired and didn't have quite the same command when he went back out after the bases loaded jam. Keep in mind that the Phillies had a short offensive inning after he escpated the bases loaded jam. He even batted that inning.

This polanco doesn't charge stuff is crap. I believe that comment was made in last night's thread as well and so when I was at the gym watching espn this morning i looked up and it's a ground ball to third. I thought, "oh, this is the last play of the game because the guy is charging the ball." Turns out it was good old placido polanco making a similar play ending an inning earlier in the game!

I agree with BAP that he wasn't as sharp from the 7th inning on. To me he seemed a little tired and didn't have quite the same command when he went back out after the bases loaded jam. Keep in mind that the Phillies had a short offensive inning after he escpated the bases loaded jam. He even batted that inning.

This polanco doesn't charge stuff is crap. I believe that comment was made in last night's thread as well and so when I was at the gym watching espn this morning i looked up and it's a ground ball to third. I thought, "oh, this is the last play of the game because the guy is charging the ball." Turns out it was good old placido polanco making a similar play ending an inning earlier in the game!

Unless there was some type of verbal agreement between RAJ and Toronto that we don't know about, getting Halliday did NOT cost us Cliff Lee. The deals were seperate. Maybe Toronto wouldn't have traded us Halliday unless we agreed to the deal with Seattle, but we don't know that.

The comments to this entry are closed.

EST. 2005

Top Stories

HardballTalk

Rotoworld News

SHOP CSN


Advertisements


Follow on Twitter

Follow on Facebook

Contact Weitzel

CSG