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Wednesday, March 10, 2010

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Does this mean we will have to call Brown "L'il Machine?"

I love the idea and would not be opposed to seeing it should the situation arise.

Lets see how he bounces back this year first.

Defensively, we'd be alot better off with a Francisco/Brown platoon.

Besides, if Francisco can give us an OPS+ of aroudn 105-110 with good defense, that's probably better than the 115 Burrell MIGHT give us with terrible defense. Giving Brown a chance to get his feet wet as the lesser half of a platoon isn't a bad idea either (Francisco has even splits so its kinda a moot point that he bats RH)

No thanks

Dude, I don't know. Maybe if he hits better (read: at all) in 2010 and he can be had for next to nothing.
I miss him a ton, but that season's a red flag for someone who turns 35 next year.

The thought of Pat Burrell in RF makes me want to kick a puppy.

Assuming we do loose Werth this sounds like a good idea. But, I still think Ruben will devise a way to keep Jason in the Phillies fold, particularly if he has a good year this year.

Wouldn't it make more sense to move Brown up and platoon with Francisco, rather than sign Burrell, and use payroll elsewhere? So far it seems Brown will be ready by 2011.

Obviously, they wouldn't have to go Brown/Burrell all the time. They could mix in Francisco.

I'd prefer Francisco over Burrell, and I can't imagine RAJ disagreeing with me.

The 3 million Burrell would want next year could give the Phillies much more value in the bullpen.

Surprised you feel this way, JW.

I agree with Kutztown.

Or we could have kept Lee and traded Werth. Signed Jermain Dye and ran a Dye/Francisco platoon for 2 years and been the best team in baseball with the best rotation since the '98 Braves.

The picks for letting Lee walk and whatever they got for Werth would be equal to what they got back from Seattle.

No I won't get over it.

First instinct was to shudder. Second was to see a) how he performs this year and b) what the market makes of him the following.

Tim - If only that were the case. I, too, get melancholy when I think of what could've been.

If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts, we'd all have a wonderful Christmas.

Burrell always seemed destined to move to teh AL when that contract was up. The pairing of his name with the word "outfielder" was one I had thought I would never see again. Still, if the Bat returns this year in Tampa, we have alot better options as late inning defensive replacement next year than Eric Bruntlett.

I wouldn't mind Burrell in a Matt Stairs esque role...however, Ross Gload is signed through 2011 so it probably won't happen. And Dobbs very well might be back as well as its his final year of arbitration eligibility.

Um...probably not.
No. Forget the probably.
No way. Not this time.

Seriously, there may be some RHBs available who cost less than Werth (assuming the FO doesn't want to spend money on his "love-patch up-keep fees"). Kearns, comes to mind. And Wigginton. Either one of them, despite being a downgrade from Werth, stand a chance at being both an offensive and (even Ty) defensive upgrade over Burrell. How much do we really think is left on those wheels of his?

I couldn't help but chuckle after every entry because I kept thinking about someone kicking a puppy for signing Burrell.

But anyways, yea, I mean, I wouldn't mind not being reminded that Burrell is gone when I wear his shirt to CBP, but definitely dont think I wanna see him in our outfield or line up anytime soon, unless it's a "All-Time" Phillies list. Which he probably wouldn't make unless it was an All-Time Phillies list for most boo'd or worst hair mistake.

Surprised more people aren't into this. I think he'll be somewhere between a starter and Stairs by next season, and carry a small price tag.

Burrell in right, Ibanez in left? Woof, either Shane's gonna be real busy, or he's gonna need a caddy to play CF with him.

Let's see what he does this year, but I don't hate the idea.

It's not as if Francisco won't be getting plenty of time (hopefully) anyway. Do people really think a 39-year old Ibanez will be starting 150+ games? Maybe we'll get lucky, but chances are, for either injury or performance reasons (or both), there will be plenty of time available in LF next year as well.

Um, no thanks.

I will be fine with a Francisco/Mayberry or Francisco/Brown platoon in 2011.

"I think he'll be somewhere between a starter and Stairs by next season"

JW, you do remember "The Babe" trying to play LF in 2008 right?

His defense is horrbile.

And by saying he will be "between a starter and Stairs" is like saying I will eat something between Filet Mignon and Oodles n' Noodles. That gap isn't even close.

So yes, he will be somewhere between the two.

Jack: Exactly.

I don't have a problem with PtB personally, but the only really good reason for the Phils to sign a DH is to address the shortage of bowlegged women in Philly.

This is a hard one, because I've always liked Burrell.

But, NEPP hit the nail on the head. Benny Frank probably gives the Phils as much as Burrell does, if you factor defense and baserunning into the equation.

Pat gets on base more because he walks (Ben actually has a higher BA the last 3 years, and even higher than Pat's '06-'08), and Pat slugs better too.

But Ben is a much, much better fielder and baserunner, who has actually stolen double digit bases twice.

Ben has 20 HR power and steals bases.
Pat has 30 HR power and walks more.

Ben is a better defensive player - by far.

It's probably a wash, so why sign Pat, really?

Even if Pat rebounds, I think Bay Slugga is right:

The money would be better spent on the bullpen.

"The money would be better spent on the bullpen."

We don't necessarily know this will be a huge need come 2011. Maybe, maybe not.

I'd much rather see Mayberry in the OF then an old, slow and likely washed up Burrell. Burrell is about done. I think Mayberry has a lot of skills and just needs a chance to play. Plus he is cheap.

I could see a much more plausable scenario, where the Phils harken back to the early 90's, with platoons in BOTH corner OF spots.

Francisco and a lefty hitter (free agent) in LF and Brown and Mayberry in RF.

PtB back in Philly: I'm stuck between "No, thank you," and "Let's see what he does this year and then talk about it."

The problem with using Burrell is that you have to move Ibanez over to Right Field. Or Burrell moves to right. Either way, it's a significant defensive downgrade, and an offensive downgrade from Jayson Werth.

Thing is, there aren't a lot of options for outfielders after this year. Werth is going to get a ton of money, probably not from us. Just look at the list here: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/09/2011-mlb-free-agents.html

In right field, you've got Xavier Nady, Jose Guillen, and maybe Magglio Ordonez if his option doesn't vest. If you move over a center fielder, the options are even worse for right handed power. Maybe Andruw Jones, assuming he bounces back in Chicago this year, but he's 34. From left field you've got Manny Ramirez (no thanks), Fernando Tatis (really a utility man), or Carl Crawford (whom the Yankees will buy the moon for).

Thing is, there's quite a few bench outfielders you could pick up who would be pretty good, like Tatis, or Eric Hinske, even Willie Harris, who can play all 3 positions and is very fast. From a cost standpoint, the best move may be to start Ben Francisco in right, with a Left/Right platoon if Brown is in fact ready for 2011 (not a guarantee). And don't forget John Mayberry! So you might want to just let Werth walk and fill the gap from what's available.

Why? Take a look at that free agent list again. The pitching crop after this year is very strong. The starting pitchers include Beckett, Jorge De La Rosa, Cliff Lee, and Javier Vazquez, to name a few. The available relievers are also pretty strong. And Moyer comes off the books this year. I think the Phillies are better off letting Werth walk, and spending the money on starting pitching. Just between Moyer and Werth alone leaving they'll have some 14-15 million to play with.

I don't think Burrell is done at age 33. He was hurt last season (and yes, I realize that on Beerleaguer that excuse is only allowed to apply to Brad Lidge). But PB is definitely done as a defensive player. He is strictly a DH now.

denny b: "I think Mayberry has a lot of skills and just needs a chance to play."

Unfortunately none of those skills involves hitting RHP. He might be a decent platoon option if he could hit .240.

I'm with LwrSlwrGeorge: Let's see what happens in the coming season. Makes little sense to speculate.

"But PB is definitely done as a defensive player. He is strictly a DH now."

Clout, you are correct.

With that said what good is he to us??

awh: Again, Francisco will get plenty of time. See my post above on Ibanez. I highly doubt his performance and health will dictate him playing 150 games at age 39.

denny b: I think this decision would hinge both on what Burrell shows this year, and what Mayberry shows. If Mayberry shows the team he's improved his approach, and can be a legit RH platoon option at the big-league level, obviously you wouldn't need to make that move. But we'll see what happens.

Burrell could be the next Geoff Jenkins...players of that skillset sometimes decline quite rapidly.

That said, he was injured all of last year and he's a better player than his line suggest.

Burrell could still be a 5th outfielder in this situation. Stairs was a 5th outfielder. I have to believe Burrell can at least be Stairs defensively.

Isn't Gload penciled in as the 5th OF for 2011?

If the Phillies internal plan is to have Francisco playing RF full time next year I hope Charlie gets him as many AB's as possible by resting Ibanez weekly. I think both players would benefit by this, and it won't be destroying our lineup.

The thing of it is, the only way Burrell would probably accept a part-time situation is if he had another crappy year - and being that he can't move well in the field, what's really the point if he can't hit anymore, either?

I'm wondering if this thread has been generated by Jason listening too much to that Kraftwerk album?

The Dye/Francisco and Mayberry/Francisco platoons mentioned above don't make a whole lot of sense since all of these guys are RH batters. Platoons are usually one RH and one LH.

Jonesman: Not to mention, why would you want to platoon Francisco? The guy hits righties as well as or better than lefties.

Jonesman: Ha yeah, Tommy's idea for a Mayberry/Francisco platoon is pretty interesting. Would we start 10 guys against lefties and 8 against righties? Could we get away with that?

Could we please focus on the NEW season coming up rather than the distant future... SO many things can happen in 2 years it is rediculous to even try and plan for it. Stop spending time trying to write about future. Try doing the real work of a reporter and give me insight about the here and now. If I were Werth, I would think about leaving just to shut you people up.

I'd take Burrell for 1m/1yr with a team option for a second year and not a penny more.

The scenario proposed by Tim almost makes me want to cry. I hope Amaro slows down a bit in the 2010 off season. They could have addressed 3B and replaced Werth with little more than what they're paying Polanco, and kept Lee.

He went too hard and fast for Ibanez last off season and he did the same for Polanco this year. Too much money. Too many years. Too many inexpensive options available in January for a fraction of the cost.

I'm hoping that Tyson pans out and makes all of this worth while. He's the only real value we got in the deal compared to what we gave up off the farm, regardless of what the annual lists have to say.

Carpenter continues to look good as the starter after Moyer/Kendrick if injuries occur with another nice outing yesterday. Sure wish he would get Halladay-ized like Kendrick. It would be interesting to see what Andrew could do if he was in shape.

And is anyone impressed with John Mayberry JR - the guy isn't striking out. Of course lots of pitchers are't throwing breaking stuff

****And is anyone impressed with John Mayberry JR - the guy isn't striking out. Of course lots of pitchers are't throwing breaking stuff****

Yeah, lets see how he does in the 2nd half of ST when guys are working on their breaking stuff.

****It would be interesting to see what Andrew could do if he was in shape.****

That's kinda unfair. The same could be said of Blanton...who's in shape but just a big guy.

Being in good pitching shape doesnt necessarily mean looking like a track star.

Schweitzer: "I'm hoping that Tyson pans out and makes all of this worth while. He's the only real value we got in the deal compared to what we gave up off the farm, regardless of what the annual lists have to say."

Hmmm, Tyson Gillies who played at the most extreme hitters park in the minors last year and has never seen a single Double A pitch is the only real value? Aumont and Ramirez are what, then?

Tim's scenario of Jermaine Dye as our right handed threat makes people want to cry? It makes me cringe, especially when we're the 'best team in baseball for two years' with a washed up Dye as our lone RH power threat and Lee for only 1 year.

****Hmmm, Tyson Gillies who played at the most extreme hitters park in the minors last year and has never seen a single Double A pitch is the only real value? Aumont and Ramirez are what, then?****

Clearly they were just fringe guys thrown in to the deal...please ignore Aumont's rating as a Top 100 Prospect.

On Gillies, even his neutralized stat line is pretty good, if not the ridiculous numbers he put up in the High Desert. He could be the next Michael Bourn.

"Aumont and Ramirez are what, then?"

Umm...almost as inexperienced as Gillies, maybe? Ramirez has never THROWN a single Double A pitch. And Aumont has faced fewer than 100 Double A batters, to the tune of a 5.13 ERA.

We need to keep in mind that none of these three guys has actually proven themselves at Double A or higher. They all have shown potential. But only potential.

Clout: Well, Ramirez is a guy who has never done anything above High-A either. I know you're more optimistic on him than most, but I think he gets the exact same caveat as Gillies--we just don't know anything until we see him this year.

Aumont's strengths and flaws are well-known and don't need to be rehashed.

Personally, I agree with the above poster that Gillies has the biggest chance to be the best asset obtained in that trade--not the highest upside, which probably would go to either of the pitchers, but the highest likelihood to contribute meaningfully to the Phillies. I think he can be the next Shane Victorino--a guy who can hit .290-.360 with low power but great baserunning and defense.

First Cliff Lee, then Werth? How about a reality check? Pat Burrell, interim or not, is a huge downgrade. Jayson Werth has become one of the premier outfielders in the NL. He is a core player, and letting him walk would be a serious blunder. Replacing Werth with Brown is also unacceptable, as it makes the lineup too lefthanded. Sooner or later, the Phils will need to consider dealing Ibanez. Whether it occurs during or after the 2010 season, it would be the right move. An outfield of Werth, Victorino and Brown should be the goal for 2011, if not sooner.

First, who would trade for Ibanez AND his salary?

Second, Who will convince to waive his No-Trade Clause?

NEPP, Easy. If Ibanez continues to hit, he is well worth $11.5 mil for one year, although the Phils might have to pick up part of that. As for his no-trade clause, the incentive is that you bench him which would certainly motivate him to consider a trade.

Burrell could become relevant to the Phils plans sooner than 2011. As Clout especially emphasized at the end of last season, the Phils failure to pick up Thome or another candidate for the bench and World Series DH cost them against the Yanks.

If the Rays fade or develop alternatives to PtB, and Burrell returns to form, then he would make sense as one of a few candidates to pick up relatively cheaply before the post season roster deadline.

If he's hitting and can adjust to fewer regular at bats, he can't be any worse than Stairs than the field and would be a sensible option for 5th outfielder in 2011. JW's speculation doesn't seem that out of line.

Clout et al: I certainly hope that Aumont and Ramirez work out, but compared to the pitchers that have been given up in the recent past (Drabek and Knapp), I think that our farm has downgraded. I fear that Aumont will be the next Carassco.

Gillies may not = Taylor, but I think it's closer.

JJG: Good point. The Phillies were de-pantsed by the Yanks when it came to DH and bench last year. It's nice to have a veteran bat who could at least be presentable as a DH option. What the Phils ran out there in last year's WS as their counterpart to Matsui was embarrassing.

starting LF in 2011...no...pinch hitter in the 9th, absolutely. Burrell = new Stairs

I think Mayberry could surprise if given a chance.

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