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Wednesday, February 03, 2010


That's awesome. Another T-shirt idea:

So you read Beerleaguer?

Larry Bowa on 610 now:

Highlights from interview:

- Loves Halladay. Says he will dominate in the NL(due to mainly the weak bottom of order). On most nights you won't need your bullpen. And at worst he will let up 3 runs.

- Says he understands the Lee trade. The economics of the game are tough to work around. And you are need to keep guys in the system.

- Bowa saw Lidge's command was off last season (due from injury). Said his velocity and breaking stuff was still there, in his opinion.

- Larry is confident in Polanco @ 3rd. But thinks it may take a little time to adjust. But offensively, he will be good.

Not Phillies related.

- Bowa thinks the Dodgers will be fine if their pitching does well. But you can tell he isn't confident that they can go far.

Interesting column by Donnellon today on the Phillies strategy to focus on "can't miss" prospects as opposed to bird-in-hand.

"verifies your membership into the Beerleaguer Elite!"

Creative, JW. Very creative. That must explain the high price of $25 bucks for a t-shirt. Ouch!

That is almost half the price for an authentic Phillies jersey on E-Bay.

You can't get Yo, new thread on eBay.

~suspects that JW used to work for the J. Peterson Catalog~

Nice shirt.

JW, I run a sporting goods shop that works with our AAA friends the Iron Pigs. I can get you a much better deal on this if interested email me @


Gosh, me in the Beerleaguer Elite? I don't know if I'd want to besmirch the title like that...

The first rule of the Beerleaguer Elite is you DO NOT talk about the Beerleaguer Elite.

Just got mine! Is there some kind of Beerleaguer Elite orientation session planned for the spring? We can all don our new shirts, carry around Baseball Prospectus manifestos and talk about Abreu and Burrell?

food for thought: is the Beerleaguer Elite the equivalent of Phillies Fan Varsity or the Phillies Fan Chess Club?

clout: If by interesting, you mean meandering and sort of incoherent, well then, yes. Yes, it was interesting. I'm not sure what he was ultimately trying to prove or disprove there, other than continuing to stoke the fires of those that are against the Lee trade.

hahah, nice shirt.

Something new and interesting to discuss:

Given how the Phillies have been known to get off to rough starts before the weather gets warmer in late May/June. I think it is very beneficial that they are away most of April.

April: 7 Home/15 Away

I am fine with not being at the ballpark when it is still cold out. Being home for the first 2 weeks to begin May against the Mets/Cards/Braves will be a great start to the first offical extended homestand of the season.

I should probably point out that I am predisposed to dislike almost anything Donnellon writes, because I find his catering to the lowest common denominator (read: WIP fanatic) fan to be pandering at best and unsupported nonsense at worst.

It seemed like Donnelon's point, as far as I could tell, was that an extended period of winning without titles can breed apathy?

Of course, using the Braves as an example kind of skews things, since Atlanta fans are well-known wishy-washy bandwagoners in all professional sports.

But then he threw the Cleveland curveball, where a team that developed its own core wasn't able to win the WFC and then had to dismantle the team, and, ten years later, is no longer popular?

Never mind...Donnelon didn't seem to have any coherent point at all...

Jason, I love the shirt. I already own a Beerleaguer blue 3/4 sleeve shirt. My birthday is coming up and my wife asked what she should get me. Instead of my usual "I don't need anything" rap, I sent her the link simply wrote "hint, hint." Unless she's a complete moron, I should own this shirt in no time.

doubleH: I agree. I can't stomach to watch or read anything Donnellon and Smallwood mainly have to write or say. But alot of others as well strike me as unreadable.

But this is a city where those kind of writers and 610 are a very popular outsource for info and venting. It is a place for the "common fan" to understand what is going on for the most part and where most people think very shortminded, i.e. not caring about prospects.

As for 610, most the "hosts" are clueless. The only time I usually listen is during the Mid-Day show. Macnow knows hockey mostly. And Gargano has a pretty solid background in everything.

The one thing I can not seem to understand(even more than Angelo and diaRHEA still having a show) after all these years is how Al Morganti still has a job there? He says 2 words a day, literally. They all make fun of him over it, yet he still earns well over 6 figures there a year.

Ok, the end of the Newspaper and WIP rant....

Nice t-shirt. Better to debate Juan Castro's defense than any of the following topics:

- Ibanez signing
- Lee/Halladay trades
- Abreu trade

It will be nice to see a start to the actual season so people can debate every detail of KK's outings, Polanco at 3rd, and every bullpen appearance.

MG: Your missing the following:
- Comparing every Lee and Halladay start
- Analyzing every Ibanez AB
- Comparing every FA that we didn't sign to those that we did. (In other words, an excuse to complain about Rube)
- Having a countdown for games remaining for Werth as a Phillie
- Complaining some more that Lee isn't on our team
- Complaining with Charlie's use of the bullpen
- Complaining with Charlie's use of the bench
- Complaining with Charlie's use of the off days to Utley/Rollins

Etc. I think you get the point. As long as their is a BLer, someone will have something to complain(aka debate) about.

Speaking of 'Yo, New Thread', where has EFF been lately?

Krukker - It takes a lot for me to laugh out loud at something on here, but that was awesome. JW - Shirts look great. If Tommy is too cheap to pony up, I'll buy two.

Just ordered a t-shirt. Is there some sort of official notice you get or somewhere you have to click to get the official validation of BL Elite status?

I'd like to think I came up with the phrase 'Beerleaguer Elite' although I may have just mentioned it once by coincidence. I don't read the comments here enough to know. I can't keep up with you guys sometimes.

"If Tommy is too cheap to pony up, I'll buy two."

Whoa, whoa. Cheap? No. Thats not the point. It is a T-shirt with 11 letters,1 comma, 1 period and the Beerleaguer logo.

It costs like 9 dollars to make. To charge 25 bucks for it is outrageous. Especially when I can buy a nice "World F'n Champs" shirt outside the gate for $5. And a authentic Roy Halladay jersey on Ebay for $70.

mvptommyd: Except that JW is not Dick's or Sports Authority. He isn't getting these shirts for $9/piece like a dealer would; he is most likely buying small run price, whereupon he is making $5-8 profit at most.

BTW, the quality of the tees you get outside the gate are horrendous and fall apart almost immediately upon washing. God knows what third world country they come from not to mention almost certain child labor. And I don't just mean the ones that are selling them.

Sorry, I worked for a sporting goods company for 10 years. Had to give my two cents here.

MVP: The price is to keep out the schlubs from the Beerleaguer Elite.
It looks like it is working already!!

For the amount of bandwidth you (and most of us) use up on this site at no charge, the cost of one shirt is comparatively nothing.

Jason doesn't charge for this site , which we enjoy and return to frequently.

He deserves whatever he can get for his T shirts.

I hope I get a cut of this, Weitzel.

doubleH: I respect your opinion, but disagree. You can buy those exact t-shirts in bulk at any clothing website or for $6. The lettering and logo costs another $2/per shirt at most and work out a deal with the printer.

Also, I have had no problems with the shirts they sell outside the gates for $5. Sure they aren't the shirts JW is selling obviously, but they aren't horrible. I have about 4 or 5 that I bought from both Eagles and Phillies games, and they are still like brand new.

I am not meaning to diss JW, but if he shopped around for a better buyer, he could make more profit per shirt,lower the price to $15-17 per shirt and sell more.

Sorry, it is the businessman in me.

Rev: As usual you don't see my point. My point isn't really on JW. It is the buyer/printer he has to do his shirts. He is obviously trying to make a profit, but at that price will sell %25 the amount of shirts that he could if he found a better person to work with and buy his shirts from.

That way he lowers the price,sells 4x more shirts, gets his site out there for advertising AND makes more money, which is the ultimate goal, right?

mvptommyd: Which brings up an interesting question: Exactly what is your line of business?

clout: Ahh, little nosey there clout? If you must know I am an entrepreneur in the financial field and a business consultant.

What is yours?

I think its the organic fiber in JW's shirts that makes the price. Seriously, that is going to account for a chunk of the differential, assuming its certified organic fiber. You are not going to get that fabric in those cheap bulk buys mvptommy is talking about.

it never ceases to amaze me the things people think up to argue about on this board. here's to another season of it!

Ok enough with this nonsense.

Onto baseball. Per MlbTraderumors:

Padres CEO Jeff Moorad stated the obvious yesterday regarding first baseman Adrian Gonzalez. Tim Sullivan of the San Diego Union-Tribune has the quote:

"While I’d be thrilled to have him part of the organization for the long term, the early signals indicate his cost will be greater than our ability to pay."

Gonzalez's agent John Boggs agreed, and explained that he expects a trade:

"The feeling we're getting is more than likely (the Padres) are going to have to trade Adrian because (they) can't afford him."

These quotes are far from groundbreaking, so consider this your official Gonzalez Trade Prediction post. Tell us the acquiring team and players given up. Keep in mind that at $10.25MM over the next two years, any team willing to surrender the right players could acquire Gonzalez. Given their first base incumbents, though, the Cardinals, Brewers, Phillies, Reds, Yankees, and Twins appear unlikely.

Beerleaguer Beer. That should be your next item to sell. Just buy a bunch of Lions Head, smack a new, sharp looking Beerleaguer Beer sticker on it, and sell away.

MVP: Rev: As usual you don't see my point.

As usual? I hardly ever post.
With the amount that you post business must be slow, are you sure you are tall enough to be in business finance?

The price is what you pay for going through Cafe Press which lets you sell one-offs of items w/o taking the risk of a larger order. I.e., to get a better price, JW would risk the financial outlay of buying shirts, guessing at sizing, having them printed, etc. If he guesses wrong on sizes/numbers, he could be out a considerable sum. This way, his upfront is $0.

i would buy Beerleaguer Beer in a second. in fact i might just "make" my own for opening day...

We need a Clout day celebration this year with t-shirts for sale.

mvptommyd: Let's just say I know the difference between the high-quality, 1500-thread count, Egyptian cotton T-shirt that JW is selling and the rags outside the stadium that you buy.

Wow. Look at all of the soft goods manufacturing expertise on this site.

"Yo, New Shmata."

Well, clout you never went to Philadelphia Textile. Cotton thread counts describe woven goods, the tee shirts are jersey knits.

While I will likely buy a BL tee, I would prefer a Beer Leaguer foam beer cooler.

and what's the story on the Milwaukee Brewers mascot Stosh, the Polish sausage being caught with HGH in his juices and having to give up his 2009 Sausage Race victories?

What's the tee shirt's VORP (Value Over Replacement Polyester)?

$25 bucks is expensive for a t-shirt but the t-shirts that guys hawk out of CBP are shoddy silk-screen, threadbare material that fall apart after 8-10 washings.

The fact that JW could conceivably acquire T-shirts for less capital is really irrelevant. Why in the world does anyone here want JW dealing with suppliers, haggling with printers, building shopping carts, handling credit card info, taking care of storage/sizing and shipping/returns instead of actually working on Beerleaguer is beyond me. Cafepress does this for him, and there is a cost involved for that.


Either buy the cool shirt or don't -- but don't wave your faux-business-savvy around and look like a clueless prick when you have no idea how much time and effort JW saved in going this route.

And there's no way around it: With the way he completely and utterly misanalyzed this particular real-world economic case, mvptommyd's baseball arguments must now be called into further question.

Solution - don't buy one MVP.

Instead of arguing about whether the third year was necessary to sign Polanco - we're now arguing about $25 for a T-shirt.

Really? Really?

If you are truly a free-market entreneur as you claim you understand supply and demand economics.

What is in season?
Deer or Duck or Bear or Grouse?
Beerleager elite.

Reading this thread reaffirms my belief that Beerleaguer is the greatest website in cyberspace. You people make my day!

EF posted a link a couple threads ago to Amazin’ Avenue and a graph showing the number of days the Mets were in first place from ’06 to ’09.

My favorite post on that AA thread was this one:

“”This is the kind of nonsense that plays right into the hands of jerks at Beerleaguer
and makes Met fans look really silly
by Rigsay on Feb 2, 2010 3:13 PM EST””

JW: Nice write up. You're giving Elaine Benes a run for her money. Keep your phone line free for J. Pederman!

Ok, we have roughly two months until the season starts and today you people reached a new level of absurd bullshit to argue about. I think you degenerates can top that. I challenge you to find a more absurd and idiotic topic to argue about. I know you can do it.

looks comfy, and beerleaguer related!!

worth every penny

...and it is NOT endearingQ

awh - That graph reminded me of the classic Dan Danquette line his final season in Boston when he infamously made the quote about the Red Sox spending "More days in first place" in '01 than the Yanks despite finishing well behind them in the AL East.

I think this confirms that EFF is JW's doppleganger. Otherwise he might be peeved that his "catchphrase" is being used for Jason's economic gains.

Not that it matters, of course. Someone's gotta tell us about the new thread.

@ awh: I read that post on Amazin' Avenue while sipping coffee. I snarfed coffee onto the keyboard and screen. That will forever keep me out of the BL Elite.

JW - there should be a prominent link to all of these great BL items available on cafepress.

Tommy - forget the tee that's being hawked on this thread. The BL polo is probably a better style fit for you. Either that or the super form fitting ash tee. Regardless, they're both less expensive than the shirt you keep yapping on about.

Missed that link to Amazin' Avenue but looked it up upon reference here just for laughs. The best part isn't the post, it's the comments. Most of the commenters just give the 'best team of '07' to the Mets and write-off the collapse as if it never happened. It's not even a discussion. Even worse, there's actually a debate as to which team was better in '08.

I hope these people don't live their real lives in fantasy and it applies solely to baseball. I just wish I could live in this dream world regarding football and crown the Eagles the team of the decade.

Iceman: I wonder how a team can be the best team and not even win its own division?

The Eagles' FO lives in this same fantasy world, though, since they refer to themselves as the "gold standard."

Iceman, Mets' fans are a curious bunch. They are accustomed to being second class citizens in NY - as they deserve to be, much like Dodger fans were before the Dodgers headed west.

I guess they feel the need to rationalize the collapse of 2007 and the minor collapse of 2008.

IMHO there really is no way to rationalize it. Perhaps if the Mets had come back to win the division in 2008 (I'll give them a pass in 2009 because of the injuries), they could convince me that the Mets were the better team.

However, over the course of a 162 game season, the wheat gets separated from the chaff, the cream rises to the top, and the belle of the ball appears. The Mets have lost to the Phils for three straight seasons.

Very simply, they are not as good a team. For whatever reason, chemistry, talent or whatever, they are not as good.

No silly rationalizations about days spent in first place or anything wlse will change that.

I think this confirms that EFF is JW's doppleganger. Otherwise he might be peeved that his "catchphrase" is being used for Jason's economic gains.

I did say "I hope I get a cut of this" earlier in this thread. Guess my threatening tone didn't come across on the internet.

As far as I can tell, first attempt at the catchphrase:

August 1, 2008: "Yo, there's a new thread"

A few days later, a T-shirt was conceived?

August 4, 2008: "Yo, new thread"

No coincidence that the Phils have won every NL Pennant ever since.

A fine service and a fine catch phrase for a BL poster. However, that shirt can take your ordinary, everyday dork and make him look like SUPER DORK.

Iceman: Posters on the Mets message board ignoring reality when writing about their favorite team? Denying the mistakes and weaknesses? Pretending things that happened really didn't? Getting all defensive at any suggestion their views may be distorted?

That would never happen here.

Once again the pot calling the kettle black, right clout?

By the way,I am still waiting for you to tell me/us what you do for a living.

We can cross off anything clothing related since you obviously don't know that t-shirts don't have thread counts. And you didn't answer my question to you right away after you asked me. So maybe it is somewhat embarrassing?

Overnight news and notes

-The Mariners' have reached an agreement with Bedard it is being reported. 1 yr./$1.5 million with a boatload of incentives. He will come back in May

- Verlander signs a 5 yr/$80 mil extension. This move buys out 2 arb. years and 3 free agent years. This move will make Verlander 32 when he it is finished.

- Cards are in talks with Pujols for extension.

- Lincecum talks with the Giants regarding an extension are not going well.

mvptommyd: I see your sense of humor is as keen as your baseball knowledge.

clout: That coming from a guy that gives high marks to Savery and KK. I think I will take that comment with a grain of salt. Contreras = Bedard? I would LOVE him at that price. It's worth paying for the incentives if he earns them.

Did Rube once again overpay for "experience"?

two more weeks..........

Being that it is official BL Elite gear, it becomes a must have item, however, being BL Elite merchandise means that I can't wear it in public.

$25 is a tough pill to swallow for a white T-shirt with a simple design. I will have to ask for it as a present; to get it with someone else's money. That tactic didn't work on JW's book as nobody gave it to me for Christmas. I live where no one would get any part of the shirt. I'd hear comments like:

What's with the "Yo" crap?

What's a thread? I don't get it.

Beerleaguer? What's that?

If I answered "Phillies fan site", I'd hear:

What's the Phillies?

Who Dat?

Yo, New Shmata!


EFF - Just be glad your phrase isn't, "Who Dat? New Thread." or the NFL would be on your ass.

Back to baseball....

I was talking with a Yankee fan (more like listening because you can't get a word in edgewise) who is 100% positive that the 2011 season will have Lee and Werth in pin stripes. He also is sure that Lincecum will also become a Yankee. I reminded him that in November he told me that it was 100% certain that the 2011 season would be Halladay's first as a Yankee. For some reason he acted like he didn't hear me.

Chris, Bedard is coming off of serious surgery on his shoulder. When healthy, he is a tremendous pitcher.

I'm sure that Rube made inquiries - if, in fact, Bedard is the type of personality the Phils want in the lockerroom. There has been much written about his attitude/personality, so it is possible that the Phils did some homework and because of what they heard are not interested.

Still, coming off of the injury, there is no guarantee he'll be effective. If he had been willing to sign a MiL deal or a split contract, he might have fit into the Phils budget, but the Phils need(ed) to improve the bullpen more, IMHO, than they needed to take a flyer on a SP coming off of an injury.

While there are no guarantees in baseball, Contreras come with a higher probabilty of performing well in 2010 simply because he's healthy.

awh - I don't dispute any of that. But if that lottery ticket hits, you've got a front 3 of Halladay-Hamels-Bedard, which would be about the same quality as Halladay-Hamels-Lee.

I think people forget that Bedard was considered one of the top contenders for the AL CY a couple years back, and he's still young and talented. I fully realize it's a pipe-dream, but that could have been one monster of a playoff rotation.

Kutztown, the possibility of Werth winding up in blue pinstripes in 2011 is very real. There are some who specualte that the reason the Yankees let Damon walk is that they're gearing up to take a run at either Crawford, Werth, or both.

The Red Sox may also be "in" on Werth. Cameron only got a 2 year deal and they could easily move him with one year left and move Ellsbury back to CF. Also, JD Drew will only have one year left on his contract and could be moved (he has a ltd no-trade clause and can only block 2 clubs).

The Dodgers will have to fill Manny Ramirez's spot in LF, and will be a year closer to resolving the McCourt divorce situation and also have manny's $20MM to spend.

IMO, other teams who might be interested in Werth will be the Angels, Giants (they kept their powder dry this offseason), Braves, Mets, and maybe a couple of others.

Unless Werth signs an extension before FA next year, I see virtually no chance that he sticks around. It's too bad, really, but that's the way it goes.

All the new schmatas need is a "You must be at least this tall to wear this shirt" on the back . . .

The Bedard signing can not be compared to the Contreras signing. Contreras was brought in primarily as a releiver, not as a starter. The Phils did not need another guy coming off injury, they needed someone they could count on to be ready opening day in the bull pen. I think from the comments made by Charlie that the fifth spot in the rotation is Kendricks, and that he is counting on being able run Contreras out of the pen on consecutive days. It is unlikely that Bedard would be effective opening day as a strater anyway, or as a reliever on consecutive days due to the shoulder surgery.

Again, not disputing any of that.

I'm just saying that healthy Bedard would be a VERY nice #3 in the rotation.

He has been at or above a 100 ERA+ every year since '04. Even last year, when he was injured, he had a 156 ERA+ in 15 starts. Twice in his career, while pitching for the Orioles in the powerhouse AL East, he was a 5+ WAR pitcher. He's led the league in H/9 and K/9.

It would be a nice luxury to take a chance on a guy like that...especially considering he has the same base salary as Contreras. That's all I'm really saying.

AWH - With all the potential suitors for Werth, I think it's a bit unrealistic for this Yankee fan to declare Werth's signing with the Yankees a done deal, don't you? What if Werth doesn't want to be a Yankee? I'd like to think that some players don't buy into the whole "you gotta' play for the Yankees or you're nuthin" mentality.

Maybe that's my prejudice coming through, but the arrogant assumption that the Yankees can and will get any player they want is more than annoying.

Kutztown, I agree. I guess that was my point but I didn't make it well enough.

From what I've heard the Yankees like Crawford more than Werth, which would make Werth more likely to wind up in Boston or Chavez Ravine.

IMHO, the Dodgers will be the most aggressive. They'll have the money and a greater need than just about any other team. Manny reportedly was thinking about opting out of his contract and trying to get a DH job in the AL - until he found out no one would pay him close to the $20 MMhe's making in 2010. The Giants will try to drive up the Dodgers price, but if you're Werth why would you want to play in THAT ballpark? Money, I guess. :)

The Angels may have a greater need at that point than the Yankees and Moreno is no stranger to big FA signings (Hunter, Vlad), and they really like speedy and good defensive players in Anaheim.

Boston will like the defense and the power bat. If Werth repeats 2009 he'll be viewed as Jason Bay with plus defense and baserunning. Remember, Werth can play any OF position.

And don't count out the Braves or Mets. It would be huge for either of them to sign away one of the top 3 all-around players on a division rival (Utley, Rollins, Werth, IMHO). It would be a coup for them - "addition and subtraction" at the same time.

So, I agree. IF Werth repeats 2009, there will be LOTS of teams interested in him, and, ass-u-ming the economy doesn't tank further, he'll get at least what Bay got from the Mets, and probably more because he'll have proven he's healthy (Bay's knee and shoulders are a concern), unlike Bay, and he can produce runs with his legs and take runs away when he has the glove on.

Phils sign Oscar Villareal!


The Phillies signed pitcher Oscar Villarreal to a minor league deal, tweets Ed Price of AOL FanHouse. Villarreal, 28, signed with the Royals before last season but eventually developed the need for Tommy John surgery. He threw for teams on Friday, with the Phillies, Red Sox, Rockies, and Diamondbacks in attendance.

Villarreal's upside is limited, as he's prone to the longball and has a 1.75 career K/BB.

Per Ed Price at Fanhouse via MLBTR:

MiL deal.

Pretty good news regarding Villarreal.

Also for those interested, the Phillies released their television schedule late yesterday. It is as follows.

- Comcast SportsNet will carry 102 games, including the April 12 home opener against the Nationals.

- MyPHL17 will air 45 games.

- ESPN has three Sunday games.

- FOX has nine Saturday games.

- That "other" Comcast sports channel will have 3 games.

Every game can be heard on WPHT, The Big Talker 1210 AM, in Spanish on WUBA (1480 AM) and the Phillies Radio Network.

I have FIOS, so I am a little mad that I am going to miss out on 3 games. But oh well, what can you do?

AWH - Lots of options for Werth. I'm wondering what his team preferences are. I'd like to think he'd want to stay with the Phillies (loyalty, etc), but as has been pointed out, all signs point to his exit from the team.

Dodgers - Do you think he holds a grudge against them? (I guess a multi-million dollar deal would make anyone drop a grudge, but....)

Braves/Mets - Will he not want to play for a team that was a rival? (I guess if Damon can sign with the Yankees, anything is possible.) Also, would he want to play for a team with the recent history of choking? The Mets we all know about. The Braves - 14 straight division titles and only one WFC?

I guess I'm thinking like a fan and not like a businessman. But you have to wonder how much of the fan mentality goes into these decisions. I think Halladay proved that there is some merit to thinking the players have more than money on their minds when switching teams.

The real question about the TV schedule is whether we get stuck with Guy Smiley for all nine innings again.

I like the Villarreal signing.

Me too.

Kutztown, Wert, by all the action from him you see in the dugout when someone else does well at the plate, really, really likes winning.

So, I suspect he'll try to find a home where he can continue to play on winning teams.

He is fortunate in that, as I pointed out, several mid and big market teams will be looking for and OF after the season.

As it appears now, they will have money to spend.

I would not be surprised if a bidding was emerges for Werth. He's a very, very good all-around player.

Tee shirt quote!

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