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Thursday, February 25, 2010


awh: All I can tell you in response is that "the bench going 1-31" has more to do with them being cold at the wrong time. The only method out of that is if they kept on going to hit out of it.

If I recall Rollins has a horrible slump the first 2 months of last season and I am pretty sure it wasn't due to lack of PA's.

Blaming the lack of success of the bench in the playoffs with the amount of PA's they had is a weak argument and not factual.

In my playing days when I batted .350 over a period of time had nothing to do with the amount of PA's, just like when I batted .180 over a stretch of time had no bearing on the amount of PA's. Players go through streaks, thats baseball.

clout: You are the first one to say I lack baseball logic and should be ignored.

Have you ever played baseball(other than little league)?

Then how are you qualified to know how hitters handle situations and what they think?

I will be waiting....

clout: Oh and "because the stats say so" isn't a good answer.

Rock on

I know about Gload, and he doesn't excite me either. Marginal power for a corner player, and doesn't draw a lot of walks. Not exactly a dangerous late-inning hitting option. His two good seasons in 2004 and 2006 were fueled by really high BABIP.

Put those two seasons in context, and he's about a .270/.320/.420 hitter. I guess that's fine for a bench player, but anyone expecting him to be a dangerous hitter or a serviceable option at a corner spot if someone goes down I would think is mistaken.

mvp- just curious, then- why would the number of plate appearances increasing from 50 to 75 make any difference if what you just said is true?

Tommy: Clout and I played minor league ball together. This has already been established on BL. We have more than enough credibility to talk about such significant things as player height, bullpen roles, and how effective batting practice is for major-league bench players.

Also, I hit .556 with RISP, and .645 in the last two innings, during my 11-year old season in Little League. Until someone can beat those numbers, I am the only one on here who has the credibility to talk about clutch hitting.

Robby J: I used 50-75 as a measuring stick for people that want to increase the bench PA's, that's all. Not my opinion, but people who have suggested resting at least 1 starter in half the games are way off and that is not logical.

I think the bench PA's are fine as it is. And like I said with my first post on the topic, I expect the bench to be used LESS because of the effectiveness of the rotation with the addition of Halladay for a full year.

"Clout and I played minor league ball together"

Please, I just laughed so hard.

*** Just to let you know, the statkeepers aren't actually members of the team****

Jack: Oh yea, I forgot about bullpen roles.

You don't believe in them, thats right. How did Madson do as closer again??

I guess by Mitch Williams saying that roles play "significant roles in the bullpen" he must be wrong too, no?

C'mon guys, stick to the thread header topic! Ha ha!

LF: Ha Ha! Thread Topic, good one. We have alot of OFer depth in the minors. Everyone agree? Great. Back to the discussion at hand.

In my first season of "B" ball in little league, I reached base on a walk or HBP 25 times but, did not get a single hit. It's true. About twice a game. So, I therefore am the supreme authority on on base percentage.

Yeah, let's try to move on and ...

... oh what's the use. Carry on.

MVP- I guess I echoed you w/ the next to last post of prior thread. IP of Halladay plus Hamels= Less reliance on the bullpen AND bench.. which are both good things

Sorry, JW. Ok, back to the other section and let's discuss Gary Burnham. Sorry I can't type that with a straight face.

He is a career minor leaguer. At least now he is in Europe having a good time besides playing ball.

Robby: I am with you on that it is a good thing. Which is why I am puzzled by the last thread and people saying we must get the bench into more games. If anything they will be seen LESS, like you just said as well.

tommy, you are correct in this sense: players get hot and cold regardless of the number of PA's.

However, if the idea is to get the bench prepared for the postseason, does it not make sense to get them as many PA as possible?

Also, I think Hugh Mulcahy said it best in his response to your post:

"The notion that 50 extra plate appearances won't keep a player sharp for teh post-season but, 75 will, is patently arbitrary. I doubt there is a magic number - repetition should improve performance on some sort of continuum."

Javis Davis?!

Now I know why I don't post on BL anymore; it used to be enjoyable.

"does it not make sense to get them as many PA as possible?"

No it doesn't make sense, because players go hot and cold.

Also, as I said before with Halladay and the rest of our rotation, expect to see the bench guys even less.

The last two threads make me happy to be a Phils fan:

1. "Phillies too good for their own bench"
2 "So many outfielders, so little room for minor leaguers"

So let me get this straight. The Phils are so good that the bench will have difficulty getting some ABs. And our outfield is in such good shape (even after trading perennial All Star Michael Taylor [that should drum up interesting posts]) that we don't have room for outfields who have seen action at the MLB level in the not-so-recent past.

Sounds good to me.

(just don't talk about pitching depth in the high minors)

Javis Diaz

Hang in there Gramps, the games will start before the snow melts. And, please ,someone tell Carrot top to pull his damn pants up.

"Robby J: I used 50-75 as a measuring stick for people that want to increase the bench PA's, that's all. "

tommy, that is patently false. That is not what you posted.

This is what you wrote:

"Giving the bench guys an extra 40-50 PA's each during the season isn't really going to matter much."

Posted by: mvptommyd | Thursday, February 25, 2010 at 09:49 AM

And then you restated it whan I questioned you:

"Sure. Since hitting is so much based on routine (thus the reason Dobbs spends innings at a time in the batting cage below the dugout). If we are talking about 40-50 PA's it isn't going to make that much of a difference in the player's hitting for the season. That's all I am saying."

Posted by: mvptommyd | Thursday, February 25, 2010 at 12:18 PM

Then, you said 75 AB was a threshold that would make a difference:

"Extra AB's WILL help a batter stay sharp if he has AB's on a regular basis. Again, an extra 40-50 PA's during the season WON'T keep a batter sharp, an extra 75-100 will."

Posted by: mvptommyd | Thursday, February 25, 2010 at 12:18 PM

Again, tommy, please explain the LOGIC of what you're posting?

If "Extra AB's WILL help a batter stay sharp if he has AB's on a regular basis.", then why won't 40-50 extra AB help a guy stay sharp? Are you assuming they won't be on a regular basis?

"does it not make sense to get them as many PA as possible?"

"No it doesn't make sense, because players go hot and cold."

Hmmm, every bench guy I've ever seen quoted on the subject has said just the opposite: The more ABs they can get, the sharper they are and the more confident they feel.

I know, I shouldn't bother.

"Are you assuming they won't be on a regular basis?"

DING. DING.DING. We have a winner folks!

Exactly. An extra 40 AB's per season is about 1 AB every 4 games. That is pointless.

The way Charlie uses guys and will use them even less this season there won't be extra AB's.

But in order to make a significant difference, IMO it would have to be an extra AB every other game, or every 3 games at the most. So another 50- 75 AB's would be beneficial, but again not very likely.

Wow,'re saying it doesn't make sense to get the bench as many PA as possible to get them ready for the postseason.

I wonder how many players on the Phillies agree with you.

And you wonder why you're a charter member of the Sir Alden Trio?

clout: I'm at a loss too. In particular, I wrote a post reacting to this comment:

Have you ever played baseball(other than little league)?

Then how are you qualified to know how hitters handle situations and what they think?

I never hit "Post" because I didn't feel like getting into a whole debate. We need meaningful games to start ASAP!

really? we're arguing about whether 50 at bats or 75 more at bats is better? Robbie J, just say "I disagree" and move on. besides, you both gave ranges of at bats so the median differences between your ranges is more and on the high end it's even further. People want to say the Lee argument was dumb. . . this is a dumb argument. I think MVPTommyd's argument is that they will be sharper the more playing time you give them, but at some point there are diminishing returns in "sharpness" vis a vis actually winning games. And Robbie J is saying, no I think there's a happy medium of about an extra game or two per player per month. and MVPTommyd is saying, no I think they'd need more at bats than that to really be sharp but I think that hurts the team because the bench is mediocre. there.

clout, I give up. I think the strategy should be to not feed the board troll.

Yes, tommy played baseball (so did I but I don't feel the need to mention it in a vacuous appeal to authority), but I think the reason he does what he does is that he got beaned too many times.


On the topic of the thread, if the Phillies draft another toolsy outfielder I'm going to pull my hair out. They have to get some infielders into the system.

clout: You got me there, I shouldn't have said that. You got me, Kudos.

JBrid: Good point. Whether you believe that Donald was a bust or an All Star, there was no other infield depth in the high minors (and other than Galvis, not much in the low minors either). Once Donald was traded, the cupboard is pretty bare.

Are there other INF in the minors that I don't know about?

clout, I think I figured out tommy.

He obviously can't distinguish between 40-50 "extra" PA and 40-50 PA.

I really hope the bench players have less AB's this season and hit 15-30 in the playoffs to put this nonsense to rest.

JBird, for the record, me and Robby agree.

Javis Davis would be an awesome name.

Of the guys listed above, Mayberry and Wise probably have the best chance of appearing in some MLB games this year, though Wilkerson obviously has the best track record and most talent. I'll believe he can bounce back though when I see it.

Berry probably gets called up in September and is used as a pinch-runner. Personally, I'd love to see a guy like that on the postseason roster, but I can also understand not using a roster spot on a guy who's never appeared in the Show.

Also, Gillies should be starting at Double-A in center, and Brown should be starting in right. If that isn't occurring, the Phillies are doing something wrong.

According to Charlie Manuel, facing LIVE pitching does make a difference.

This from Matt Gleb's Phils' Notes:

""In the wintertime, sometimes you get a guy inside or a machine. It's completely different. A pitcher is usually throwing better, and he'll be mixing in curveballs and change-ups and stuff."

The batting cage/pitching machine under the dugout is just as good. How do I know that? Because tommy told me so.

After all....he played baseball.

"In my first season of "B" ball in little league, I reached base on a walk or HBP 25 times but, did not get a single hit."

I once walked 4 times in a game, seeing 16 pitches. And, indeed, generally reluctant to take the bat off my shoulders, I walked with fair frequency. But those were pre-Moneyball days, and so I was stuck batting 9th.

Another little league gripe: the tacit assumption that, if you could hit, you could also field (and pitch). Not necessarily! I was a veritable vacuum and yet was always sent to man LF.

"The batting cage/pitching machine under the dugout is just as good. How do I know that?"

Here we go again....To refresh your memory...

"tommy, so you're saying LIVE hitting against real pitchers is the same as being in the batting cage below the dugout?"

To which I replied:

"Of course not. Did I say that?"

And people wonder why I complain?

JBird, I agree that the cupboard is bare, but remember that Hewitt was drafted as an infielder. He couldn't cut it there. I guess he isn't "athletic" enough.

Were there others that have had the same thing happen?

awh: If you make up what people say in real life like you do on here, you must be one unsuccessful businessman and a person that is not trusted.

I mean come on man.....

...he'll be mixing in curveballs and change-ups and stuff.

Gosh, I love Cholly. So eloquent.

The manager of your NL Champion Philadelphia Phillies, ladies and gentlemen.

R.Billingsly- They have a young guy named Jonathan Villar who came over from DR last year and had a nice debut. He took some walks, and he is fairly big for a SS, so the idea is he might be able to add some power as he fills out. He is a good ways off, maybe in Lakewood by the end of the year. There is also Harold Garcia, who is older and at best might be able to fill the Castro role in couple years.

So yeah, not looking too great for the middle infield prospects, so it might be worth giving the guys we have now a day off now and then, we need to get a lot more miles out of them.

"he'll be mixing in curveballs and change-ups and stuff."

I believe if Charlie was a poster on BLer that clout and awh would call him a troll. Why? Because clout and co. know best, thats why.

Thanks, Jonesman. I've seen Garcia's name floating around, but Villar is one that I haven't heard. I'll have to keep an eye on his progress.

R. Billingsly: He's exactly how a baseball manager should be--baseball shouldn't be that complicated.

"You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains."

To clarify, I do like Cholly. I finally came around in the middle of '08 after ripping him a new one, both in public and private. I just love the way he puts things sometimes. He's a lot smarter than his vernacular portrays him to be.

Now's about the time I start rolling out the baseball movies to get ready for ST.

"Eight Men Out" is my favorite followed by "Bull Durham."

Any other nominations? I think I actually own just about all of them, even the crappy ones like "Fever Pitch."

The Phils definitely have a dearth of IF prospects in the minors, so Iw ouldn't be surprised at all to see them focus on that in the draft.

But really, drafting for need in baseball is about as pointless an exercise as you can get...Not only do you usually have to wait a few years to see if you got anything worthwhile out of the picks, but the flameout rate for MiL prospects is so high that you can't count on them much at all.

Hewitt was drafted as a 3b, but I believe he was pretty much viewed as an outfielder by everyone else. He played short stop in HS, but Keith Law, for instance, said in his draft previews Hewitt was going to be an outfielder, "He's currently a shortstop, but lacks the footwork or the instincts to play there and will end up in the outfield"

Law also said Hewitt had a long swing and poor pitch recognition and was coming off a terrible summer performance-wise and ranked him the 72nd best draftable prospect. . . but that might be beating a dead horse.


My list (in no particular order)

1. Major League
2. Field of Dreams
3. Bull Durham
4. Bad News Bears
5. Little Big League (believe it or not, I think it's really funny)
6. Eight Men Out
7. Rookie of the Year (see explanation for Little Big League)
8. League of Their Own

That's just off the top of my head.

tommy, your problem is you have no real sense of humor - one that allows you to actually laugh at yourself.

You take yourself way too seriously.

Major League is the greatest. Gets me fired up for Spring Training. I am watching clips on youtube right now.

awh: Yea your righ, I should laugh at myself more. Right after I get told I am "silly" and "foolish" about most topics..

For Example:

Ibanez will be fine guys and will actually hit at least 25 HR's and get 100 RBI's...Tommy your an idiot, should have kept Burrell. And no way will Ibanez do that.

Madson can't close guys, there are roles....Tommy your silly, of course he can.

Lidge is injured guys.....Tommy stop being foolish, Lidge stinks.

Bench players don't need to be used alot, the playoffs stats happened because they got cold.....Tommy, your a troll. Sir Alden Trio!

Tell me where the laughter comes in?

Especially when I bring logical points that for the most part turn out to be right.

HH and R. Billingsly - Don't forget "The Natural."


Here's mine

1. Eight Men Out
2. Bull Durham
3. Major League
4. The Natural
5. League of Their Own
6. The Sandlot
7. Long Gone (was a made for TV movie)
8. 61*

Just saw "Sugar," and man, was that depressing.

RBill and hh, I would add "The Rookie" to your list. also, the "Pride of the Yankees" is good, and for historical perspective, "The Jackie Robinson Story", the original version starring Jackie himself, is a good watch. It really gives you a feel for what a tremendous person and individual Robinson was.

Also, I like "Bang the Drum Slowly".

hands down

#1 Field of Dreams

#2 Sandlot

tommy, sometimes you're not logical. Period.

I see so much of Utley in the Redford character in "The Natural." Even the slicked back hair. Doesn't say much, just wants to win.

They had some retrospective on the movie and interviewed a bunch of ballplayers about it, and there were several Phillies interviewed (Utley being one of them). The guy it was (sort of) based on was a Phillie so it made sense.

If Cole's wife starts showing up at games wearing a big hat with angelic back-lighting, be prepared for some monster walk off homers.

Love 'The Whammer' character.

The whole father/son thing in Field of Dreams gets me teared up every time. The wife character nearly ruins the whole movie.

Love 'The Whammer' character.

The whole father/son thing in Field of Dreams gets me teared up every time. The wife character nearly ruins the whole movie.

I would have to say I should be the BL Expert on Home Runs, since in wiffle ball I either hit a home run or strikeout.
Also I should be the expert on PED's since my production dropped a significant amount when they changed the recipe for Sparks!

And if you were wondering I am tall enough to play wiffle ball. I get to all those line drives!

Can't forget the Cape League Classic "Summer Catch" starring Freddie Prinze, Jr. and Jessica Biel. At the end, I believe Prinze's character, pitching for the Phillies, mind you, gives up a HR to Griffey. Typical.

Gosh, that movie stinks. But at least there's a Phillies connection...sort of.

...pitching for the Phillies

doubleh: Fever Pitch is not without its charms.

Also, I'll be controversial and say, Field of Dreams is way overrated. I'd rather watch Major League, The Natural or Bull Durham a thousand times before suffering through Field of Dreams.

On the outfielders: Someone said it, but Reading should be Gillies in center and Brown in right. My guess is Quintin Berry will be in Triple A along with Wise. Mayberry will most likely fall there too most of the season.

My guess is either Spidale or Mahar will be wished well in their future endeavors.

****The whole father/son thing in Field of Dreams gets me teared up every time. The wife character nearly ruins the whole movie.****

Really? Why?

There's not a thing I would ever change about that movie. My brother and I actually drove 4 hrs out of our way while crossing the country just so we could visit the field, play catch and hit some balls.

Fun Fact: I paced the field and its about 265 down the LF line and 270 down RF...not exactly a pitchers park by any means. Though I guess they might have let some of the corn grow back...after all, that's prime Iowa farmland out there.

Klaus: You were ahead of your time. four walks on 16 pitches is Bonds-esque.
I was reluctant to swing hte bat because I always grounded out (except for errors). appropos of nothing, my younger brother's first year above T-Ball they made him a pitcher . First game in, he hit the first four batters he faced before being removed as much for bawling on the mound as for general wildness. He never pitched again.

Don't feed the trolls.

(When the officiall guide to Beerleaguer gets released, just as EFF is forever attached to, "Yo, new thread," I'd like to be attached to the above quote. Thank you.)

Sorry for the random "...pitching for the Phillies." Don't know where that came from.

JBird: Hewitt was a toolsy INF. But now he's a toolsy OF.

TTI: I'm with you. Not a fan of "Field of Dreams" at all. I find it a bit treacly, along the lines of "Rudy," but I understand why some would like it. (sidenote: I also loathe the film "It's a Wonderful Life," so maybe it's more about me than everyone else) As a female, I just wasn't born with that "gene," I guess.

clout will like tim Dierkes opinion:

From the MLBTR live chat:

[Comment From Mike]
Is Tommy Hanson in the Cy Young discussion this season?
Thursday February 25, 2010

Seems aggressive but yes, I do think he is in that discussion. Not the favorite, but he has to be one of the ten best in the NL right now.

****Hewitt was a toolsy INF. But now he's a toolsy OF.****

That should increase his ranking with Baseball America at least.

TTI: However, I have to disagree on "Fever Pitch." I like the subject matter--and the movie had such promise--but Fallon and Barrymore have zero chemistry and Jimmy Fallon may be one of the worst actors working today. The original upon which it was based is far superior, but unfortunately was based on soccer because it was a UK film.

3 years ago my buddy's girlfriend was ragging on Charlie wondering how he even got hired to manage in the first place. i kinda agreed. she thought that she was more qualified to manage the phillies. i kinda agreed. it was an ongoing joke. until we became WFC. amazing how things change. i'm a charlie guy now, even though his strategies confound me.

the last organized baseball i played was tee-ball. as such, i can tell you that players hitting off tees is more important than facing live pitchers.

i have officially started reading the post's author before the post. if it says mvp i'm moving on. i'm sure you're a nice guy an all tommy, i just can't take this soap opera anymore.

hh, you saw the original "Fever Pitch" starring Colin Firth?

Yes, I agree, it was far superior to the baseball remake. And it was just as if not more believable because practically no fans can match the fanaticism of the British "football" fan.

The Rangers voided Khalil Greene's contract because he didn't report. Social anxiety disorder.

Does it make sense for Rube to sign him to a minor league deal and see if they can get him healthy enough to contribute if he's needed?

i love how predicting raul ibanez would hit 100 RBIs in 2009 is tommy's claim that he is smart.

Kind of sums up everything he is about.

There is no point whatsoever to sign Khalil Green...he's all messed up right now. The guy needs a situation with no pressure, no contract, just free to fix what's wrong.

Keep in touch with his agent, yes. Sign him? No. For his own good.

It Happens Every Spring is our family favorite. I am borrowing a review from IMDB.COM:
A college professor is working on a long term experiment when a baseball comes through the window destroying all his glassware. The resultant fluid causes the baseball to be repelled by wood. Suddenly he realizes the possibilities and takes a leave of absence to go to St. Louis to pitch in the big leagues where he becomes a star and propels his team to the world series.

RE: Khalil Greene...

No, definitely not. He grew up with my wife in Key West and has always had serious social issues. Legendary ballplayer down there, but my wife, who was a friend of his, described him as a complete loner and totally uncomfortable with any attention whatsoever.

Does that sound like someone who would thrive in Philly?

Very cool article written on, top prospect Brown taking BP with Halladay pitching.

Getting very excited about opening day seeing Halladay take the mound for that first game. Its been a long long time since the Phils have had a true ace starting pitcher at the start of a season

It's probably worth taking a shot on Greene with a split contract with a team option or something. If he recovers you can use him or trade him, if he doesn't you can cut him (kinda like the Eagles & Vick).

Madmax: you mean except for the last 2 seasons when Cole Hamels was the ace pitcher?

Jbird - Wasn't Brett Myers the opening day starter both of the past 2 years?

Terry, you beat me to it. (I was away for a 3 hour quarterly corporate meeting.) "It Happens Every Spring" with Ray Milland was my favorite as a child.

In the 2004 WS, I remember seeing Jimmy Fallon and Drew Barrymore on the field and turning to my family saying, "I didn't know they were dating." Little did I know that they were filming a movie. It was serendipity that the Bosox had their unbelievable season while a movie was being filmed about them. Jimmy Fallon is horrible on late night TV, but he was okay in "Fever Pitch" depicting the obsessed fan. I thought they captured his love of the team very well. Drew Barrymore is in my Gload category. She does nothing for me.

The old B&W version of "Angels in the Outfield" was nice, too.

In reality, no movie compares with the real thing.

Bull Durham is far and away the best of the best...Major League is hilarious, and is the only one that approaches BD...But there really isn't any contest. The monologues, the philosophy and the witticisms are all vastly superior in Bull Durham.

MVPT is ruining the dailies on this blog.

Jbird, I'm not sure I would put Cole in the type of 'ace' category where Halladay belongs, which obv means something different to each one of us. He is certainly a very good pitcher, when I think of Halladay, I think back to the days of Carlton, and if Carlton is my measuring stick of an ace, simply because that is what I grew up watching, then I can't yet put Cole there. You can put my feeling of 'acehood' in the subjective category of why baseball is special to each of us, but I'll admit there exists no objective qualification. But if you really think Cole is equal to Halladay then so be it. So now, please go ahead and pick apart all the words in my true ace post, call me names if you'd like for not worshipping Cole, make snide comments, do your worst, i'm just one guy excited about baseball starting up again soon.

MadMax: No current member of the Phillies team, including Halladay, did what Carlton did. And no Phillies pitcher has a pitch like Carlton's slider. The speed and late break made it impossible to hit. Keith Hernandez, a pretty good hitter, said when he recognized the slider he'd just keep his bat on his shoulder and hope it got called a ball. "If you get your bat on it, it's going to be a ground out, so why bother?" he said.

"And no Phillies pitcher has a pitch like Carlton's slider."

Here, here. It was "sick". Looked like a fastball and then just dropped off the table.

Mad Max, you are right. Carlton was an "ace". After the 2008 WFC, 2009 was Cole's chance to earn that coveted "Ace" label and he ended up having an average record on a pennant winning team. Cliff Lee's 2009 performance highlighted the wide difference between pitching like an "Ace" and pitching like Cole Hamels.

I know my opinions are usually different than anyone elses, but am surprised no one mentioned "MR. 3000" anywhere on their lists.

LF, Carlton had bad seasons as well, losing 19 and 20 games in two different seasons (albeit with low ERAs by today's standards).

But Carlton earned his "ace" status over the course of several seasons, as has Halladay. Cole can, IMHO, still earn that status, but one season does not an ace make.

On another note, Jon Paul Morosi has a story up at foxsports on Tyson Gillies:

clout: I'd argue that Halladay is doing what Carlton did, in the sense that he's reached that same level of domination over time. Carlton was more durable, but relative to time period, Halladay is up there with him.

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