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Saturday, February 20, 2010



I think you mean "gentle" or "genteel" not "gentile." Unless there's a subtler point I'm missing here.

I haven't shaved yet today, perhaps I'll grow a beard like Halladay too.

move over moyer let leroy take over

Jimi Hendrix guitar solos are now going off in my head Meyer adn I'm trying to nurse a hangover! Good one though!

If 6 turned out to be 9, mvptommyd wouldn't mind.

You nailed it, JW. As much as I like and respect Moyer, as a clubhouse leader he showed that he couldn't walk the walk. It's not possible for me to believe that he was unaware of how awful he was and how badly he was hurting the team in his starts.

Given that the Phillies has a plethora of options at the time, as a leader he should've put his competativeness aside for the good of the team.

To his credit though, up until his injury he didn't give up and gave the Phils a nice different look coming out of the bullpen.

All in all, Jamie is less than four years older than I am and still a Major League pitcher. He'll be one of my favorite Phillies even after he hangs up his spikes.

@Burt - Apparently the subtler point is that Jamie isn't Jewish. Not sure that's relevant, but there you go.

This is an invented, gossip-mongering topic worthy of WIP.

I wouldn't say "invented." He's had a real effect on at least 1 pitcher. Cole would be wise to follow suit.

Cliff: He's had an effect on the workout regimen of Kyle Kendrick. It has yet to be seen whether that has any effect at all on Kendrick's pitching, and by extension, the Phillies.

Agree that this story is only slightly above the "Player X has showed up to ST in the best shape of his life" story. As a Phils fan fired up for Halladay though, I like it.

Mets sign Rod Barajas.

Not to brown-nose too much, but I think this is a great piece of speculation (which is not always a bad thing), and exactly the kind of thing I come to Beerleaguer for. It should provoke thoughtful discussion, not WIP style name-calling (we have the Cole and Heidi playlets for that). Instead of calling it 'invented', I call it 'inventive'. In these initial days of ST, when all reports are rosy and human-interesty, this raises an unknown quantity that could have a positive or negative impact on the team's actual performance.

JW - Well written. I felt like I was reading a piece at one of the mainstream sports websites.

Scott Lauber says on his blog that Dubee continues to 'lavish praise' on Kendrick 'without provocation'.

Philled In

Kyle Kendrick will win 30 games this year.

Moyer is still recovering from multiple surgeries, correct?

Moyer threw off the mound on the first day of ST...though he was held out of fielding drills to keep his knee rested.

So he seems to be ahead of schedule.

Emphasis I place on what coaches say about guys' bullpen sessions in spring training: 0

It's easy for your cutter to look good in a bullpen session in Clearwater. A lot different when you're facing Prince Fielder with guys on base in a real game. I'll believe Kendrick's secondary pitches can get lefties out when I see it. I hope they're right, but what they say right now just doesn't really matter.


"Apparently the subtler point is that Jamie isn't Jewish. Not sure that's
relevant, but there you go."

Well, maybe he meant that although he's a lefty and he's a pitcher, he's not Sandy Koufax. Of course, if he was Sandy Koufax, he'd probably be making $30 million per and Halladay would be our #2 starter.


Kyle Kendrick has filed for divorce and will propose to Roy Halladay!!!

How will this effect us long-term as a team?

Will Brandy Halladay be able to convince Roy to stay?

So, what do they do if KK wins the 5th starter role? Where does Jamie end up? Do they release him? I cant imagine them asking Moyer to go to Lehigh or that Moyer would ever accept such a role. I can see Moyer trying to catch on somewhere else (like San Diego maybe). I doubt they'd put Moyer in the bullpen again but you never know I guess.

As long as we don't lose our clout.

"If 6 turned out to be 9, mvptommyd wouldn't mind."

Jack, this one may have gone over my head, but what are you talking about?

NEPP: If KK beats out Moyer I think that will begin a great debate here regarding to do with Moyer.

I think (as of now) if that happened, they would use Moyer the same way they did at the end of last season. Which was however they needed him, but mostly in the starting role as a filler. I can't see him being a reliever out of the bullpen for an extended period of time. But then again with Charlie and Rube, who knows?

I could see him in a garbage innings role I guess. Not that I'd expect him to get much work in that type of role.

SP - Roy Halladay
SP - Cole Hamels
SP - Joe Blanton
SP - JA Happ
SP - Kyle Kendrick

CP - Brad Lidge
SU - JC Romero
SU - Ryan Madson
RP - Danys Baez
MRP - Jose Contreras
MRP - Chad Durbin
LRP - Jamie Moyer

That leaves guys like Bastardo and Mathieson in AAA. I'd imagine Bastardo would be better suited to a LOOGY role than Jamie but they'd have to keep Moyer over him to prevent losing him.


I am getting a bit concerned that having Roy following Kyle in the rotation, with their incredibly similar repetoire, will give hitters a distinct advantage. Happ will need to be inserted ahead of Roy.

Not sure if serious...

I wasn't sure I was serious on Dec.16 about Kyle, beastiality and Roy. The ink was barely dry on the Halladay papers. Now, if Kendrick does make the 5th slot and starts to fool hitters to the tune of 6.3 k/9 and matches that number in innings pitched, maybe he should be moved to the 4th slot. R-L-R-R-L.

Anywho, enough with pitchers. I want to hear Ruiz's reaction to having all these CY pitchers showing up for his catching pleasure in just one short year.

Ruiz had games with Lee where he never moved his glove once he set up. Pop, right in the center. Around August 1st, Ruiz will be giving Senor Octubre lessons to Roy. As a matter of fact, Ruiz is the poster boy for BITHL in that month.

I am not ready to concede the 5th rotation spot to KK. Hell, Happ and CHoP battled to the very end of ST to get it. It could be a dark horse that wins that battle, one not on the radar right now,

What is BITHL?

That is the opposite of the Deer-IN-The-Headlights-Look. It is the Bulldog in the Headlights Look. Like get out of my way or I'll jump through the windshield look. The driver in this case takes on the DITHL. I believe, but I'm not sure, that Roy is teaching Kyle the look.

Ahhh very nice. Was BITHL coined on BL?

Those first two paragraphs were sweet as honey.

If my Roy-Toy makess KK 1/5 of the pitcher he is it'll be a coup for the team.

Just like David Byrne sang 'stay hungry'.

"...if Kendrick does make the 5th slot and starts to fool hitters to the tune of 6.3 k/9..."

Cue the strings...okay, Miss Garland you may begin...

I have been a one of Kendricks critics, but I would be happy to see him make something out of his career. Hopefully going to IMG this winter and learning from Halladay will turn Kendrick into a John Garland type. I am not a fan of Garland either, but if Kendrick achieved close to that level, it would be nice for him and for a 5th starter.

Hopefully all of this instruction from Halladay will come into play the next time Kendrick faces a LH batter with men on base.

"Somewhere over the rainbow
skies are blue,
and the dreams that you dare to dream
really do come true." I'm really sorry about all this KK and Roy stuff. I think the real wizard behind the curtain is Carlos Ruiz. Roy called him before he signed and Carlos told him exactly how he should introduce himself to the team and which pitchers he should endear himself (Roy,Cole,Chad). The result will make Ruiz a bit more rested by August where he will then reveal the Senor Octubre prep plan to Roy who should, by then, be saving himself for the Big Show.

I first saw BITHL this week. You really can't have DITHL without DITHL on this planet.

That's no DITHL without BITHL. My fingers are stuttering.

Now I can't get Ruiz as the "Fall BITHL Poster Boy" out of my head.

BITHL and DITHL fall under the specific CI index.

This is all very silly. Jack, Andy, NEPP, mikes77 and the other members of Beerleaguer Elite have declared that KK can't possibly be a major league pitcher due to his low K/9, regardless of what scouts or his past records suggest.

There's really nothing further to discuss.

Yeah, I agree. Firstly, the chances of someone showing up in your life EXACTLY at the time when you need to get over the hump is rare indeed. Never happens. Like winning the Lottery. Relying on fate alone without doing any work whatsoever and poof - Here's Roy.

I am also sure that 6.1K/9 is really 7 strikouts. Like getting to the seventh inning.

Boy Moyer has a different look. It's like he stepped out of the We Are the World lineup into the Police Lineup for Dr. Jekyl. Moyer the Mad Surgeon.


#1: Do not insult me by lumping me in with your beerleaguer elite. That stupid fraternity is for you, awh, tti and bap.

#2: I never said that KK can't possibly be a major league pitcher due to his low K/9. I said that Kendrick's K/9 would have to improve in order to be a ML pitcher(a change-up would help). There is a difference.

I also said John Garland is not as good as Joe Blanton, and his K/9 is an indication. You, of course, disagreed.

Where is BAP?

Manuel said Kendrick has a "major-league slider".

When the student is ready, the master appears.


clout, I stand by my assertion. If he keeps up a K/9 ratio of under 4 (like he had been doing) then he'll never really amount to much more than a spot starter at best. If he posts something along the lines of his 5.1 K/9 that he had last year at the MLB level, he should be fine.

I mean honestly, there aren't too many legit starters that have EVER posted a K/9 ratio in the sub 4 range and been at all worthwhile. 4.5 is the usual cutoff for effectiveness with very few exceptions.

Its just like saying, "A LHP who throws 83 mph is not likely gonna be a legit starter." One one side of that argument you have Jamie Moyer...on the other, you have the other 7000 LHP with similar stuff that never made it.

The fact that UC and Dubee are both heaping praise on KK kind of tells you who the favorite is for the 5th starter role. You'll all remember how critical both were of him going into last year. This is a complete 180 for him.

I really really hope that clout ends up being right (not that he really will be because if KK does indeed have a much better slider and change, his K/9 ratio will be much higher) and KK ends up as a good starter.

"I really really hope that clout ends up being right (not that he really will be because if KK does indeed have a much better slider and change, his K/9 ratio will be much higher) and KK ends up as a good starter."

If he developes a slider, he will strike out more RH hitters. If he developes a change, he will have a chance to strike out left handed hitters. His K/9 will increase and he will be a good Major League pitcher.

"This is an invented, gossip-mongering topic worthy of WIP."
Exactly right.

mikes77: "I also said John Garland is not as good as Joe Blanton, and his K/9 is an indication. You, of course, disagreed."

I didn't disagree. The statistics disagreed:

Blanton ERA+ 105
Garland ERA+ 111

But you're dim enough to think that K/9 is a better measure of a guy's season than ERA+, so rock on.

NEPP: That wasn't your assertion. You're softening your stance. You said KK couldn't succeed in the major leagues. Now you're saying, oh well, maybe he could be a bullpen guy or spot starter.

Which, of course, is exactly what I've been saying for two years.

Of course KK could be a major league starter this season... unlike Jamie Moyer who is, as we all know, Washed Up (tm).

"...Now you're saying, oh well, maybe he could be a bullpen guy or spot starter. Which, of course, is exactly what I've been saying for two years."

Clout, you are such a liar it is ridiculous.

mikes77: Really? Well, then tell me what I said about KK that was different. This should be amusing.

Could all this talk about KK being awesome and working hard be to light a fire under a disgruntled Jamie Moyer?

I must say, there are a lot of pit bulls who post on this site: they grab on to something and never let it go.

This KK debate has gone on for what seems like forever.

Unfortunately for all of you, despite all your ceaseless blather, you have been powerless to settle the debate yourselves.

Well, now you all are going to get your wish.

The only man with the power to settle things plans to do so, one way or another.

Its a much better debate than some of the others around here (Abreu trade, Burrell or Ibanez, Lee vs. Halladay, etc)

Overall, we wont know for a while. Its hard to remember that Kendrick is all of 25 this year.

On an unrelated note, does anyone else get the urge to repeatedly slam Sydney Crosby's face into a plate glass window every time he speaks?

Good story on the Phils here, and their quest to threepeat as NL Champs:

do you think the threads will become less contentious and unreadable when the season starts or is this just how the site is all the time? seriously, in maybe 06-07 this site was pretty great. granted i mostly just looked at it in season (was there less off season content then?). now it is kind of crazy. no offense to anyone but what happened? did everyone go to law school? did success make everyone everyone redirct their agnst toward each other?

There are plenty of doofii who comment on Beerleaguer, but I will be grabbing my bottle of Jack Daniels and will impart my wisdom and
astute obsevations once the pre-season games start, so pay no mind to the numbnuts and dimwits

JW on 610 now.

Kool Earl: Just remember the hard work of vet's like myself and you will do just fine on this board. It's guy like me who paved the way for upstarts like yourself to be able to come on here and say your piece. Some call me the Rosa Parks of Phillies Blogs and I intend to keep it that way. So if you are coming my way young one you are gonna have to get my fat ass out of this primo seat, and it aint gonna be easy. Funny, How?

I can't believe that a full day passed and no one noted Weitzel's Freudian slip (shot?) at Clout's indefatigable defense of Jamie Moyer:

"One wonders if at that moment, the Phillies' consummate professional had lost his clout..."

It was noted, just do a search.

And yes, the threads will get better. The game chats were what pulled me in from an occasional lurker to an actual participant. Lots of energy and enthusiasm, especially in big games, the sort of living and dying with every pitch, typing a player's name followed by ten exclamation points when he hits a dinger ... and criticizing managerial moves just before they happen, when most fans need to read the next day's newspaper be told what went wrong.

And I love those days in July when a lot of people are away on vacation and a game with the Marlins can draw 15 posts. Rhythms of the summer, in all their comforting glory.

I thought Domonic Brown gave a powerful interview.

NEPP, Good point about KK's age. He's got room to grow. Look at Happ, it took him 'til last year to break in and he's already 27.

Will KK need to show improvement to get/keep that 5th spot? Of course. Is there a definitive reason why he can't do it? Don't think so.

With KK, my point was not solely about the K/9. (I guess I'm not surprised that clout would be disingenuous and say that I was only concerned about that facet of his pitching.) There are pitchers with k/9s (ks/9?) below, say, 4 who succeed. BUT...KK also has a very pedestrian GO/AO ratio. And he has been obliterated by LHBs. Since for most players None of those three skill sets, incidentally, appears to rise much above a certain level in the minor leagues, I question his ability to suddenly turn it on.

WHEN COMBINED all three mean that he will have incredible difficulty succeeding at a major league level. Certainly his ability to start is in serious doubt. He might be used as a sort of "LOOGY."

I am hopeful, for his sake and the Phils, that his is the miraculous case, where something suddenly clicks and either

a) He learns how to get LHBs out. OR
b) He learns how to get ground balls more effectively. OR

(yes...even this would be an improvement)

c) He learns out how to miss bats. (And incidentally, when you take out pitchers, his career k/9 is below 2.)

(OTOH thanks for calling me "Beerleaguer Elite." Do I get to wear the crested blazer now?)

Kyle said in some interview that last spring besides having the groin injury in 2008, that he found himself caught in the middle between trying to get batters out with his old two pitch combo and introducing his experimental repetoire. He chose to try to get batters out the old way and failed. His frustration showed and he was sent to the minors. I believe the powers see him as a good, inexpensive soldier with dogged determination who has now come up with a "major league slider", "sick changeup" and is working on his "Roy-al Cutter". The BL elite will get to hold their royal shafts until the call "play ball".

Good Morning!

Quiet winter of hibernation but I am waking up now.

Not optimistic about Kendrick, but I hope I am wrong.


well said.

park is a yankees. yuck.

I saw the Park news on the ESPN crawler. Hopefully, we see him in October. I haven't seen any reference to the terms. Anybody know how much he got?


"when most fans need to read the next day's newspaper be told what went wrong."

Unikruk, give MOST fans more credit than that.

I watch most the home games at the ballpark and a bunch of their away games at sports bars around the area. Trust me most fans there criticize Charlie about moves when they are about to happen and directly after.

BLer is a great spot for game chats, but don't act like fans that aren't here don't know what they are watching because your wrong.

Also, only on BLer when the Phillies lose 2 in a row, do you see "Season=Over" posts and extreme criticism listing ways that Rube screwed up the offseason. If any reason, THAT is what makes BLer special.

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