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Tuesday, January 12, 2010

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interesting that you mention two players who "preferred" to be relievers instead of starters in the same article.

and he might not now jack about squat, but he certainly is entitled to his own opinion on what he likes more, starting or relieving, and should be given a chance to do what he wants more. if starting does not pan out, they can't flip-flop him like they did with myers.

should be know*

I thought the kid had a health issue that caused him to not go over 2 innings? Thus the need to develop him as a reliever (closer). Does anyone know the true story?

CRD: why should he get to choose starting or relieving? He's an employee of the Phillies' right?

And why can't they move him back to the pen if he fails as a starter over the next year or two? The goal is not to rush him to the bigs, but to groom this kid to provide the most value to the club. Jason is right, there's no rush.

i never said "he should choose"

i implied that his opinion should be respected in terms of where he wants to pitch. it can't be easy making a 21 year old do what they don't want to.

i agree with jw- there is no rush, i simply meant if starting doesn't work after a given period of time, i hope they don't switch him back and forth.

Wow. Myers as a starter for what amount to $3M this year? Ed Wade actually made a pretty compelling value FA sign for a change potentially.

Starters are just more valuable than relievers, on the whole, so I think the Phils ought to, and have every right to, see if this kid can become a SP. And I for one would hope that if he sucks as a SP, he can transition into an effective reliever. Flip-flopping be damned.

its a brett myers for 1 year - 5 million, for 2, 11 million.

it was dumb to give the team the option on that second year.

They better make him a starter since according to all the people who love prospects over proven talent, he has a better chance of helping the Phillies win the World Series than Cliff Lee would have this season! Moronic.

Oh I missed it was a mutual option. Like that alot less. Still, it is an interesting deal and could be a real bargain this year even if Myers is only a league average starter.

Too bad the Astros likely have too many other holes to be much better than around .500 this year.

Hopefully Aumont doesn't end up on the DL but I have a bad feeling he will if he stays in the rotation . . .

Jay: I heard the same thing, about his hip. Hopefully they know what they're doing.

The decision is in keeping with the high risk/high reward philosophy of the Phillies development team.

Aumont is certainly more valuable as a SP than in the bullpen. But the M's knew that too, choosing to move him to the 'pen to take some stress off an arm that was limited to 55 IP in 2008 because he was out with a sore elbow. Some scouts think his three-quarter delivery puts extra stress on his arm and that he will be injury prone.

He also needs a third pitch to go with his 96 mph sinking fastball and decent curve.

The move back into the rotation can be analyzed simply: If Aumont stays healthy, it's a good move as the Phils maximize his value. If he breaks down, it's a stupid move given the known injury risk.

Oh, and another thing. As thephaithful correctly notes, Aumont has had hip problems.

Several scouting sites have called this a degenerative condition, which Aumont denies. He also said the hip didn't bother him at all after he was moved to the bullpen, although it did bother him as a amateur and in his first pro season.

I think Wade actually came very close to making a smart signing in Myers. Max of 5.1 mil for one season of a guy with a lot of potential to be either a good reliever or a good starter.

He was projected to be the number 2 starter on the Phils last season, coming off of their WFC. And if he's healthy now, I would not bet against him being above average at least.

Seems like a much smarter signing than Lyons at 5 million. And even knowing his personality and personal problems, I still think Rube missed the boat here. But as always, time will tell. And maybe Jack Taschner was a better value than a switch hitting backup catcher who could have saved you 2-3 mil over two years. But I doubt it.

The kid can be moved back to the pen if it doesn't work out. Who came up with the notion that moving a guy from pen to rotation or vice versa causes problems? They did it with Madson and he turned out just fine. Most relievers spend a good bit of time in a rotation on their way up to the bigs.

***Several scouting sites have called this a degenerative condition, which Aumont denies. He also said the hip didn't bother him at all after he was moved to the bullpen, although it did bother him as a amateur and in his first pro season.***

I think those multiple sites are the result of circular reporting, not independent confirmations of the same supposed issue. I trust the Phillies doctors/training staff know what they're doing with him. They've got his medical reports, physical results, etc. If they want him to start to get more innings, that's the right call till proven otherwise.


On Myers: It looks like a really good deal for the Astros.

The first two sentences of this are among my favorites you've written. It's funny because it's true.

So they key player in the Lee trade is injury prone with a potential degenerative hip. Nice. Just makes me even madder over the trade. One of the worst trades in Phillies history!

Supposedly he doesn't actually have any degenerative hip issues...its just bad reporting.

The training/medical staff did get the Dick Martin Award from Baseball Prospectus for being the best last year, so presumably they can be trusted to know what's best for Aumont physically.

Exactly. They've seen his medical records, we have not. I would trust their judgment.

I would like to rely on that assumption. Is the Dick Martin Award winning medical staff the same as the one that evaluated Freddy Garcia before finalizing that trade?

NEPP: You're right. The Phillies couldn't possibly be mistaken about Aumont's injury risk.

FWIW, the Mariners moved him to the bullpen specifically because of injury concerns (as well as getting him on a faster track to the majors since he only has 2 pitches, which is all you need in the 'pen.)

Again, I hope the Phils are right because he'd be far more valuable as a SP. But, unlike NEPP, I don't automatically assume that Phillies management got this right.

We'll find out.

way off topic, but jbird's mentioning of the training staff reminds me of how stupid Dong Lein is. He should have been fired over the Romero ordeal. Pisses me off that no one in the media or anywhere else brought up the fact that Romero took the supplement to him and all he did is say 'i dont know'. Then find out you moron, its your job! Thanks to his laziness and stupidity, Romero's whole season was screwed up, and definitely cost us games.

Hugh: another good memory of the Phillies training staff screwing up to such a degree that the team lost games directly because of their ineptitude.

On the Myers signing, it looks like Wade (not that we are surprised) saw Myers on the market and jumped at the chance to have him back under his control. I like the first year of this deal, because it is at a pretty good bargain price ($3.1 mill w/2 million buyout). However, the second year that is an option for $8 million is a little much IMO. Overall, the 'Stro's still have alot of holes to fill if they plan on being a contender.

This Aumont topic has the classic BLer potential to make a mountain out of a mole hill. The kid is 21 years old that has (used to have) hip issues. The Phillies trainers/doctors I am certain did all their research and tests on this kid. Also, since he is so young, he isn't nailed down to being eithier a releiver or starter. Let him start as the Phillies are doing and if it doesn't work out, then he can go back to being a reliever.

The Phillies obviously see potential in him to be a starter or else they wouldn't suggest that he convert to that position.

****NEPP: You're right. The Phillies couldn't possibly be mistaken about Aumont's injury risk.****

Are you on Dr. Ciccotti's staff now? I mean, they were just rated as the #1 team in baseball for their training staff and they've got full access to his entire medical records including scans of the arm, hip, back, etc.

Given the lack of legit info that we have, I would have to side with them on this one.

****FWIW, the Mariners moved him to the bullpen specifically because of injury concerns (as well as getting him on a faster track to the majors since he only has 2 pitches, which is all you need in the 'pen.)****

Suppsoedly it was far more to do with fasttracking than the injury concern.

mvptommy: Thanks for stating the obvious.

The issue is whether making him a starter again will cause his injuries to flare up thus causing loss of development time. So it's not simply "if it doesn't work out he can go back to being a reliever." It's more like "If he gets hurt he might lose a year of development time and then go back to being a reliever."

Get it?

Its really only a $6 million option for 2011...they're giving him at least $2 million in 2011 regardless of anything. If he pitches well enough to warrant it, that's a bargain for even a league-average guy.

Sorry but I have to address something from the alst thread. It seems know it all clout is back to his antics and said this regarding trading Hamels for Gavin Floyd..

"showed that if you have half a brain, the proposition isn't outrageous at all."

Really, clout? Well I will tell you what, since Floyd is all of a sudden a WS MVP calibar pitcher, how about you actually stand by something you say for once and see how well he does this year.

Floyd had his BEST year as a starter in 2008 and had a 3.84 ERA, for a 119 ERA+ in 206 IP. Followed that up in 2009 with a 4.06 ERA, 114 ERA+, in 193.0 IP. Floyd is now entering this season at 27 years old.

Hamels as you know had a bad year by his standards last year. But 2007 and 2008 were his best years, that blow Floyd out of the water. Also, Hamels is entering this season at 26 years old.

So because Hamels is making more and under team control for 1 less year, you think they wouldn't jump at this offer if made. And in return you tell ME that I have half a brain? You do realize that the goal is to win the World Series right? Also, since when are you so concerned about payroll? Is the 4 million per year difference between the two really that big of a deal?

With one pitcher you are getting a 4.00 ERA pitcher with 115 ERA+, the other is a WS MVP with a 3.67 career average and capable of giving you a ERA+ of 130-140.

Seems like you are the one with half a brain.

NEPP: True, but you have to look at it as seperate deals, not together.

He is making $3.1 in 2010 with a $2 million buyout in 2011 OR $3.1 in 2010 with $8 million in 2011.

You can't just subtract out the buyout.

You ask any team in baseball if they would trade a #3 starter for a potential Ace...they'd all jump on it...even if it cost them another $4 million a year.

I can't believe this is a real debate.

clout, you are such a little child. I get it, but he is 21 years old! The method of moving a starter to releiver isn't hurting Happ, Kendrick, Bastardo, and all the oithers the Phillies have done this exact thing with, right?

Yeah but the difference is only $6 million. Simply look at it as a 1 year, $5 million deal for 2010. That's all it is. For payroll purposes, Wade basically deferred $2 million of the $5M interest free till next year.

So, if they keep him, its only another $6 million for them.

" I can't believe this is a real debate."

I can't beleive it eithier. I am even stunned that people like clout, Alby and others are actually saying that the White Sox would be the LOSERS of the trade!

Again, only on Beerleaguer....

I'm sure the White Sox would hate to trot out a top 3 of Buehrle, Peavy, and Hamels...that would be terrible.

NEPP: Ok, ok. I can see your point. That makes sense I guess for payroll purposes. But for other pitchers looking at the deal they are using the 2011 slary of $8 million, when comparing to him in negotiations.

"I'm sure the White Sox would hate to trot out a top 3 of Buehrle, Peavy, and Hamels...that would be terrible"

I know. But everyone wait, clout would prefer to have Halladay, Floyd and Blanton.

I think clout lost all credibility with this one. Classic!

Of course, the ironic thing is that whoever buys the Astros (currently for sale and it could happen very soon from rumors) will likely fire Wade anyway and bring in their own person.

For once, the MLB Players Union actually does something to improve the game instead of allowing a scumbag like Lurie to ensure a huge fat profit before Opening Day because of luxury payroll subsidies.

Issue in baseball hasn't been the Yanks/Red Sox but the bottom-feeders like the Pirates, Fish, and other teams that cry poverty yet have some of the healthiest profit margins in baseball because of the luxury payroll subsidies they get.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phillies/20100113_Marlins_agree_to_union_demand_to_increase_payroll.html

I think Myers will pitch well. I could be way wrong, of course, but it's a feeling I have. Which is why I would have liked to keep him - for the price the Astros got him for. That's a good deal for them, and not bad for him, either, in that he gets a year to show he's in good form after the injury.

Did anyone read about the Selig-created committee topics for discussion? LaRussa wants to abolish DH. That's far from likely to occur, but I'm with LaRussa here. Cox and Torre want all best-of-seven in playoffs - that one I don't agree with, mostly b/c the playoffs would be even longer then. Then there's the time off during postseason, replays, and how to pick up the pace. Here's the link:

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100112&content_id=7905872&vkey=perspectives&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

mvptommy: I'm not going to correct all the errors in your post about the Floyd contract vs. the Hamels contract, especially since it's from a previous thread. Go back and re-read the original post from Alby.

I love that Miami was dumb enough to publically fund a stadium for them. Lurie is a piece of garbage. He destroys one franchise so they give him another to run into the ground.

Are they gonna go after Pittsburgh too? They currently have $22 million committed to 2010 before their arbitration/renewals. I'd be surprised if they break $40 million.

mvptommy: Are you really this slow? Did Bastardo, Happ and KK have hip and elbow injuries?

If they go to all 7 game series, they should go back to a 154 game season to shorten the length of the season.

Bastardo has had repeated arm issues.


On the Floyd/Hamels thing, over the next two seasons, Hamels will make about $8-9 million more TOTAL than Floyd. I'd pay a $4 million premium to have Hamels over Floyd.

clout: I read what Alby posted and you both are a joke.

Floyd is under control of the Sox for 3 years, Hamels 2. Floyd is making $2.5 mil this year,$5 mil in 2011 and $7 mil in 2012 . Hamels is making $6.5 mil this year, $9 mil next year.

I will take Hamels any day of the week. I can't believe you are still fighting this!

"Did Bastardo, Happ and KK have hip and elbow injuries?"

No. But the Phillies trainig staff and doctors examined him and said he is fine. So are you now saying you know more than the doctors as well?

Interesting.

NEPP: You get Floyd for 4 years, Hamels for 2 and Hamels costs twice as much as Floyd during those two years. That was Alby's point. The difference in contract cost and length of time offsets the difference in quality between the two.

In other words, it's not the outrageous lopsided trade that our resident genius says it is.

Obviously, we all agree we'd rather have Hamels and if the White Sox, for example, figured they had only a 2-year window to contend and then would have to rebuild, they probably would do that trade. But I'm not sure that's the case.

clout: You never answered my questions and by the post in reference to NEPP's post you are all of a sudden backtracking.

1.) Since when are you so concerned with payroll?

2.) You wouldn't pay extra for a WS MVP, 3.67 ERA and capable 13-140 ERA+ pitcher over a potential #3 starter?

I enjoy the DH rule, but only because you always get a couple of pitchers in the AL who come to the NL during interleague and:

1. Display some bat skills that you doubted they had.

or

2. Show that they are morons who don't know how to run (Ching Ming Wang)

But for the game itself, I wish there was no DH, think it's a dumb rule.

****NEPP: You get Floyd for 4 years, Hamels for 2 and Hamels costs twice as much as Floyd during those two years.***

No, you get Hamels for 3. He's still under team control for 2012 after his current contract runs out. We didn't buy him out all the way through arbitration.

Its 4 years of Floyd or 3 years of Hamels.

clout's main point was that the WhiteSox wouldn't do the deal - not who was better/cheaper/younger/etc.

My question to clout would be, would the Phils do that deal? If he answers anything but flat out 'No', then I don't know what the hell he is talking about.

So the point of the debate would be... absolutely nothing. Interesting.

I guarantee they would do it. The WhiteSox aren't a young team. They're built to win now too.

A rotation of Buehrle, Peavy, Hamels, Danks would go a long way towards winning for them.

clout: "the Mariners moved him to the bullpen specifically because of injury concerns"

Where did you read this? I've read the speculation, but I've seen no one from the Mariners say this is the case and Aumont says this isn't the case. The Mariners say they moved him to get him to the majors faster. I'd be interested to see where you got your information from.

So, Myers vows to 'stick it' to the Phils. Suppose he expected more gratitude from an organization that held his hand after he tried to break his wife's face with it.

Myers - Always a class act including saying that his incident with his wife was "blown way out of proportion."

Phils could have always used another quality starter but Myers was easily my least favorite Phils' player on and off the field in the past 10 years hands down.

Where did you guys see these myers quotes?

***So, Myers vows to 'stick it' to the Phils. Suppose he expected more gratitude from an organization that held his hand after he tried to break his wife's face with it.***

Way to burn that bridge, Bretty. The team completely stood by him with the wife beating thing...they even let him start that weekend.

What a piece of garbage.

So I take it that Brett will not be taking out a full page ad in the Daily News thanking the fanbase for its support?

If Floyd has another good year it becomes a much closer question. Those are not insignificant salary differences.

Saw it on philly.com, there's a link on the right side of this page (in the 'ticker').

Wasn't letting him start that weekend a ridiculous thing to do? Especially from a PR standpoint?

Yes, yes it was. They supported him 100% during that entire thing and he turns around and craps on the FO?

I hope he "falls" out of his SUV again during his first week of ST so the Astros can remember who they're paying for the next 2 years.

Newsflash: Athletes are competitive and every player likes to "stick it"(beat them) to his old team.

Let's not get carried away.

Well we play @ Houston the 2nd series of the season. They don't come ehre however until August 24th-26th. Hopefully Brett pitches against us in at least one of those games.

My least favorite Myers moment was in 2007 when he blows the game then calls the reporter the "R" word during the post game press conference.

My favorite Myers moment is a obviously that CC at bat during the postseason. But close second (to be original) was the 3-hitter he tossed in September of the 2008 season. Phillies ended up winning 3-0 in a pitchers duel against Pelfrey. Also, that game made the Phillies only 1 GB in the division race at the time.

The biggest problem I had with the Myers' wife-beating incident was that he wasn't even effective in his start afterwards. He gave up 3 runs in 5 IP to take the no decision in a game we lost. Had he at least pitched well and won, it would have be a bit better.

MVP, I'm not familiar with "R" word story, nor can I guess what the "R" word, can you elaborate?

MG and NEPP, you are confused.

The Marlins' owner is named Jeffrey "Loria".

The Eagles' owner is named Jeffrey "Lurie".

(That's not to say that the substitution of one name for the other makes your point incorrect.)

Sorry, I was referring to the Eagles owner...snark.


I wonder why I didn't catch that while writing it?

Hmmm...cheap owner, refuses to spend money while pocketing tons of revenue...tough one to figure out.

Myers sticking it to the Phils. Is that going to be like DeSean Jackson stinging the Cowboys [butt]?

what the hell is the "R" word?

"I'm not familiar with "R" word story, nor can I guess what the "R" word, can you elaborate?"

Sure. Read the link below:


http://ballhype.com/story/brett_myers_blows_the_game_screams_obscenities_at/

CJ: Do a Google search. That's been reported in 3 or 4 different locations.

Sorry that link got removed. This one has the story.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/20449599/

Hah "retard" is not obscene. oh well. Myers is a complete F'up regardless. I am glad he is gone.

"Hah "retard" is not obscene"

To some it is offensive. I don't want to offend anyone.

yeah tommy i wasnt arguing with you, but the article you linked.

it isn't a big and I should not have even made a comment about it. I wish you could edit posts here. oh well.

it is absolutely offensive

Scott Eyre currently on 610 WIP...

kart racer - Agreed to a point. The Phils' organization generally treated Myers well and generally stood by him despite some very questionable decisions he made on and off the field. They did move on but I would hardly say they treated Myers unfairly while he was here.

What's Eyre saying?

Monty recently commented that the prospects obtained the in Lee trade hopefully will develop into a role in Philly or help get someone like a Blanton or Lee in the future.

Moving Aumont to a starter with some short-term success would make him more appealing to a non-contending team looking to free up payroll or rebuild.

Making impact mid-season trades or acquisitions has been a nice luxury for the Phils lately and one wonders how long Aumont will actually be property of the Phillies.

It's the move that will get the most value out of Aumont. If it becomes clear he isn't durable enough, they can always just move him back to the pen. There isn't a whole lot of risk involved.

And they weren't a great return for Lee, but let's not be too down on these guys. Aumont thew some nasty pitches to some Major Leaguers and made them look silly in the World Baseball Classic, and if they develop him successfully as a starter he will be very valuable. Gillies could be Shane Victorino with better defense and a higher OBP.

All time traded Phillies team (cant be a guy we got value for)

1B - Dick Allen
2B - Ryne Sandberg
SS - Julio Franco (he was one at the time of the trade)
3B - Scott Rolen
LF - George Bell
CF - ??
RF - Bobby Abreu
C - ??

SP - Curt Schilling
SP - Fergie Jenkins
SP - Dave Stewart
SP - Cliff Lee
SP -??

Almost got a whole team off the top of my head here.

Wow, great idea NEPP. I'm not going to get too much done this afternoon trying to think up some other team members. May be dating myself, but I don't remember Dave Stewart being traded for some reason I thought he was cut. I also thought George Bell was a Rule 5 pick up by Toronto, not sure though.

Lee: Let's see how the prospects pan out before we say we didn't get value.

George Bell wasn't traded. He was stupidly left exposed and taken in the rule 5 draft.

If Gose and Gillies somehoe wind up on the same MiL team in the Phils' system, who bats leadoff?

Also, one wonders if they both were on base at the same time, and numerous times at that, whether or not they could set some kind of baseball record for the most number of double steals in a season?

Sigh. When do pitchers and catchers report?

MaxMax: You are correct on Stew & Bell. A better name would best players the Phillies cut, lost or traded and got little or nothing back.

I agree with BedBeard that it's too early to put Lee on the team. But it's not too early to replace him with Gavin Floyd and Andy Ashby (league-average 14-year career after being left unprotected in the 1992 expansion draft.)

Per MLBtraderumors:

The Astros designated outfielder Jason Bourgeois for assignment to make room for Brett Myers. In 2009, he hit .316/.354/.401 in Triple A while playing all three outfield positions.

Any interest?

Nope...I think we have enough AAA OF fillers already.

****MaxMax: You are correct on Stew & Bell. A better name would best players the Phillies cut, lost or traded and got little or nothing back.****

Fair enough...I'm also okay with putting Floyd on there in place of Lee for now.

Apologies about mistakes on Stewart and Bell...for off the top of my head, I think I did an okay job.

Marlon Byrd is a maybe for CF...he's had some pretty good years and we got crap in return (Endy Chavez).

NEPP: I agree. Just throwing names that are out there in hopes of starting some sort of discussion in the hopes that Spring Training arrives quicker.

He's too Bourgeois for the Phils clubhouse.

Perhaps if he were to change his name to Jason Proletariet...

Guys - not sure if you spotted Neyer's article -

http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/2018/do-phillies-ignore-sabermetrics

It is pretty interesting, essentially saying that the Phils do not utilize any advanced metrics and in fact do not have an in-house "guy" dedicated to it.

Interesting.

What if Lidge's on/off/on/off career continues and he has a solid year this year. Do the Phils consider looking into the crystal ball, and try to sell high after the '10 season?

In other News:

The Phillies announced the National League Champion ring ceremony will be April 15th and Roy Halladay bobble head night will be April 18th, April 12th Opening day will present fans with NL champs pennants and April 14th Opening night will present fans with "NL Champs" T-shirts.

Check out the other promotions here:

http://www.mlb.com/schedule/promotions.jsp?c_id=phi&y=2010

"It is pretty interesting, essentially saying that the Phils do not utilize any advanced metrics and in fact do not have an in-house "guy" dedicated to it."

JMARR, this was noted last season when their "stat" guy was let go. I remember getting into a whole(2 week) debate over this very topic.

While stats are important,some MLB clubs value their scout teams more to do the job rather then look into numbers. Because in some cases numbers can be misleading depending on the situation and timing that stats do not take into account of, along with other things.

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