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Tuesday, December 15, 2009

Comments

I still don't like dealing Drabek.

2011 Payroll Projection:

$101 Million committed to 9 players (assuming Halladay gets $20 per).

It jumps to $109.5 million if Rollins is brought back.

Victorino, Ruiz, Dobbs, Francisco and Kendrick are all Arbitration eligible. Vic and Ruiz will likely be fairly pricey at that point and the other 3 will still cost a bit of money.

We will have to fill 10 spots on the roster somehow (with far less money than we have this off-season). This includes 2 rotation spots, a starting RF and several bullpen pieces.

That should be fun.

I hate to state the obvious, but only time will tell on this deal.On paper, the prospects that the Phils give up seem better than the one's they are getting, but who knows. I do know I personally would prefer Halladay over Lee if given a choice. I saw him pitch a 2 hitter over Seattle a few years ago and he was awesome.
Halladay, Hamels, Happ, and Blanton ain't bad.

Afro Ben Wallace? In which case, he'd be an ideal defensive 3B. Not only would he be able to snag high line drives, he'd definitely Feliz (intimidate) the crap out of righty pull hitters.

Still don't like the Lee deal.

Humbug.

NEPP - maybe the Phillies plan to have their own cable channel in 2011. . .

I understand Amaro needs to plan for 2011 and beyond, but a big part of me just wants to win the WS in 2010 and keep Lee, no matter the cost. Read Phuture Phillies writeup, though, and you see that other than Brown, the Phils have absolutely zero in high minor league ball to complement what free agents we keep from our big boppers and cheapish pitchers. I guess it must be done, and I have to trust this was the most we could get for Lee. About the same as we gave up for him, when you think of it.

JBird: "Yes, I can't wait until Ben Francisco and Kyle Kendrick are counted on by the club to be serious contributers. Those should be some great teams.(sarcasm)"

That would be awful, if we had to rely on a 106 OPS+ guy to start in our outfield. Good thing we don't have an outfielder now with a 109 OPS+. Our team would be terrible!

On the Lee Deal: How much better are these three prospects than the two compensation picks the Phillies would have received if Lee had stayed? Is that upgrade worth losing a season of Cliff Lee?

Right... Ramirez is the part of the deal that is making me feel a little better.

When I went to bed last night, we were dealing Lee, Drabek, Taylor and D'Arnaud for Halladay, Aumont and Gillies. That's the kind of deal I simply couldn't accept.

That we're also getting Ramirez softens the blow somewhat. He's not as close to the majors as Drabek, but he's got the best chance of getting to that point.

Bottom line: We're gettin Roy Halladay, who may very well be the very best pitcher in all of baseball. That can't be all bad.

jr king, I think the issue was comp picks would be years and years away from contributing, while these guys may be able to help starting in 2011.

anybody know how much we have left over this year to address the bullpen?

I don't like dealing Drabek either. As a matter of fact, I say we stick with 4 lefties in our rotation and see if we can lock up Lee and just forget the whole thing ever happend. As a matter of fact, let's deal Lee back to the Tribe for Carrasco, Marson, Donald, and Knapp as well. I didn't like trading them either!

JW, Halladay is 6-6? I wonder if he can play 3B on his off days?

Something else to keep in mind: Lee can't, or rather wouldn't be as effective, on three days rest in a playoff series (as we saw this year). Halladay hasn't missed a beat with three-days rest in his career and would absolutely be used in that capacity during the playoffs. While Lee was obviously phenomenal this postseason, not being able to pitch our ace in 1, 4 and a possible 7 was a handicap.

Not saying this justifies selling half the farm, but if you're looking for even more reason to see this as an upgrade from Lee, there's another.

Lefty: The Phils should have the same amount to spend on the bullpen now as they did before the trade. Lee $9M + $6M in cash from Toronto is about equal to the $15.75 that Halladay is making.

DH Phils - Shane Victorino is a centerfielder not a corner outfielder

When a team has to give up a year of Cliff Lee only because it didn't tender Joe Blanton for one year, that is called a catastrophic loss.

No balls, no blue ribbons. Ruben should have simply cut Blanton loose if he couldn't afford him. And he should be on his knees begging Moyer for an injury buyout of 4 million to retire right now. Those two moves would have more than paid for Lee. Not to mention that the prospects taken from the M's are much more suspects than prospects.

Major screw up. This is the kind of deal that many organizations take a decade or more to recover from.

There were simply too many other ways to save money that didn't happen. Ruben is resembling more the guy who kept Bruntlett and gave away Jaramillo for nothing, necessitating three replacements and counting. The first Lee deal was a master stroke. This one is just giving everyone a stroke.

DH Phils - Plus, you are looking at replacing a guy who has topped a 120 OPS+ each of the last 3 years, not the 109 guy who plays gold glove defense in center.

Hell, Ham & Happ and a side order of Bacon.

WHEN WILL THIS INSANITY END!

I can't take the rumors and speculation any more. I want to know the actual deal. The 72-hour window closes tomorrow night, right?

I'm still holding out hope that the Phils look at Seattle and say "you know what, M's? We really don't need you to get Halladay, so we're keeping Lee and taking draft picks. Thanks for nothing."

That should be "did" tender Joe Blanton for a year of course.

PhuturePhillies has a good piece about the trade, but also addresses Amaro's seeming lack of skills/faith in the Arb. process.

Reposting from last thread:

After feeling dejected last night, I am reassured by Clout's optimism on Ramirez, assuming that he is included in final deal. Still, if it remains this two way deal that gets wrapped up bilaterally with Toronto first, why not shop Lee around a little more. Esp. to the Angels.

In regards to the Toronto side of the deal, is it worth it to reconsider the value of Dom Brown. If the flurry of information from last night was to be believed, it appears that we could have secured Halladay for Brown, Aumont, and D'Arnaud. By refusing on Brown we had to pony up Drabek and Taylor and swallow Aumont -- about whom everyone seems to be lukewarm.

Is Dom Brown worth Drabek and Taylor with the "bonus" of taking on Aumont.

Shorter recap of this trade:

Better in 2010 to make a deep postseason run? - No.

Better in 2011 to make a deep postseason run? - Probably but depends on how the Phils deal with several key contracts next offseason.

Better in 2012? - Who knows because Amaro has made every move to focus on the next 2 seasons.

Bullpen? - Still stinks are currently constituted.

Cupboard? - Pretty bare in terms of MLB-ready talent.

Amaro? - Extended the window last year by largely spending more bucks last offseason. Looked like a mad genius for the Lee/Francisco trade.

Who won this thing? - Won't be able to tell who really won this trade until the end of the 2011 season at the earliest.

Below the radar? - Moyer contract. Contract to Moyer with the 2nd year where Amaro backloaded it substantially really came back to bite them in the a$$ this offseason. $8M on a guy who might not even give them much next season.

If you count the $4M on Romero and $12.5M on Lidge, the Phils have a lot of money tied up in pitchers who might not give them much in terms of IP and quality next year.

Off-season isn't over yet and my head is spinning too much to judge this. Maybe this is about getting some sort of really good bullpen piece. Or.. God knows Anything else. I just get the feeling there HAS to be something else going on. Maybe we flip one of the incoming prospects for something. I mean Lee came out of left field I would love to think there is a method to the madness of all of this. I kind of 55% like the moves. I just don't know. If this is it for the off season. then no. If it's part of doing something else. Maybe.

In 2011,if the Phils have money to spend, Arroyo,Cain, Javy Vazquez, Beckett, Bonderman, and Harden are FA Maybe Rube will trim the roster to make money available.

aksmith: Wait a second... we're back to saying Ruben Amaro has no balls? What a cartoon character so many of you have become.

Again, the decision to trade Lee was apparently not *just* a money decision (although money clearly played a role), but also an effor to reload a farm system that had dealt away 7 of its top 10 prospects.

I wish we had gotten more back for Lee, but it's hardly a major screw up. We upgraded to a guy who may be the best pitcher in baseball and is, at worst, 2nd or 3rd.

I like the writeups on this kid J.C. Ramirez.

How does he compared to Drabek at the same age and level?

Did Ramirez have TJ surgery too?

"Major screw up. This is the kind of deal that many organizations take a decade or more to recover from."

That's a little dramatic.

JW: Your Lee vs. Halladay performance analysis is solid, but it neglects to take into account that this isn't a "Cy for Cy" deal. Rube has made a "Cy + Best Pitching Prospect + 1 Of 2 Best OF Prospects for Cy" deal, & I simply can't understand how that constitutes good future planning. With $60 million in payroll (+ vesting options) now gone, & no viable Minor League talent to replace an outgoing starter or OFs in the next couple of seasons, it appears almost impossible that Halladay can perform well enough to justify the overall cost of his acquisition.

People are being way too negative about this trade. Obviously no one wants to lose Lee, but we couldn't push the payroll that far. Amaro tried to trade Blanton but nobody wanted him for a good enough price, and he is a serviceable and productive starter that is a great NO.4 to have.

We just got the best pitcher in baseball for multiple years. The BEST. He's pitched in the toughest division in basebal and has been an absolute boss. Prospects are prospects. There is no telling what they are going to turn out to be. Halladay is an improvement over Lee, and unlike Lee will have him for multiple years.

The 2010 offseason is going to be interesting...If the payroll limit stays at or around 140 million, this team could be in trouble.

Didn't think a Halladay trade was going to happen because of the cash thing. Phils need to move Blanton's salary level ($8M or so) plus get another $6-7M to offset Halladay's $15.75M salary next year.

They did it but it forced them to make a move they almost certainly didn't want to make either.

Maybe I am crazy but the rest of this offseason is still vitality important because this bullpen stinks as currently constituted. It might be good enough to get the Phils into the low 90s again in the win column but it easy could be 2007 redux all over again too. Team that wins in spite of their bullpen.

Trade Jamie Moyer now, and I'm happy.

CJ - They moved Lee because of his $9M dollar salary first and foremost. Yeah they got some decent prospects back in return but they weren't negotiating from a position of strength and it showed a bit.

"Didn't think a Halladay trade was going to happen because of the cash thing"

I think you didn't even believe there was truth to the Halladay rumor.

Phans~

All I know is I got a call from my buudy this morning and he said he heard on MLB sat radio that the problem was not what we were giving to Toronto but what we were getting from Seattle. Apparantltly also there is still a relunctance to part with Drabek over Happ (to Toronto) but I guess they'll live with that. The big contact, that Ed and I both know ( and many of you heard of) called me last night and told me about Rodney, Smoltz and Marquis. He told me basically " on th Halladay deal is announced all of the other pieces will fall inot place. Ed also heard about Marquis.

Now remeber I posted last week that they are quietly trying to get Moyer to retire. If they can do that. They don't have to honor his contract as written. They could give him a job in the org. and pay him that way or if he agrees to retire, they can come to an agreement on some sort of buyout.

Ed said this deal with Halladay was agreed to over the weekend. If that's case why didn't they just non-tender Blanton? The answer to that may be that it would be easier to sign Blanton to an extension than Lee. He also said that the 6 mil from Toronto is coming in 3 payments, not one lump sum, thus Phils may have felt pressured into dealing Lee now.

It has also been speculated that the rumors saying Lee would not sign an extension were not entirely true.

Now If I were RAJ, I would not trade Lee now but maybe in July. They would have had to NT Blanton to do that. Maybe they should have. I don't know.

But Doc, Hamels, Blanton, Marquis and Happ isn't bad at all if that what the rotaion turns out to be.

I think there is more to the big picture here than meets the eye at the moment. But I do not like what the Phils are getting back from Seattle at all. To me it's not enough for Lee.

Yeah, all about the dollars, but those 3 have some potential. I'm warming on this. I hope DPatrone's inside sources is right and they're hoping to squeeze out more from SEA.

Cliff Lee, Mike Taylor, Kyle Drabek, D'Arnaud

vs

Roy Halladay, Aumont, Ramirez, Gillies

Without the prospects I prefer Halladay, with them, I kinda prefer the 1st group. Maybe not by much, but I don't think Halladay at 20 million per for his age 35, 36, 37, and maybe 38 & 39 is all that great a deal. Love Halladay to death, but I don't see this as a great deal.

BB - No I didn't because I didn't think the Phils would be willing or able to move the ~$15M or so they needed to get the Halladay deal done especially after they didn't move Blanton. They is why I called BS on that.

Everything keeps yelling and moaning about the '$140M payroll' but they completely ignore the fact that the Phils just simply didn't have the potential increase their revenues streams much this year or next. They are playing in a park with 100% attendance and made a deep postseason run the past 2 years.

Ticket prices did increase (5-10% depending upon the ticket) but that was about the only real area where they saw revenues get boosted unless they were able to really strongly sell advertising deals which I doubt in this economy.

Phils are still a business first and foremost. People can say tripe about it being a monopoly or Middleton have billions but you would be incredibly hard pressed to find an owner of any sports team who actually spent of his own personal fortune to cover a team's annual operating costs. In fact, I would bet if you had the real numbers it has probably never happened in MLB.

How much less than Lee's $9 million is Marquis expected to earn in light of the Wolf deal?

Patrone - Why would Moyer retire and pass up $8M compared to take a job that might pay him $125-$150k in a city where he doesn't reside?

Dear Uncle Charlie, the last few days have been extremely difficult on my gastro-intestinal tract. Could you please give to me the secret home remedy that you have used to keep your gut in check. Thanks. p.s. We signed that big ole boy Harry Leroy Halladay.

MG - if there is no room to increase revenue than how do the Phillies justify Halliday at $20 million? They are hamstrung going forward a la NEPP's posts unless they can go above $140 million.

I do agree that once this is finalized, other chips will fall into place soon after. The Marquis thing is sill perplexing.

MG: I never said money wasn't a factor. In fact, I said it was a factor. But the fact remains that the Phils tried to deal Blanton first but couldn't find much in a way of a return.

If it were just about the money, they could have dumped Blanton for nothing. Amaro realizes these two trades have hurt our system (although we were still top 5 after the first Lee deal), and so it was important to him to get something of value back.

Not saying I preferred the way it came out, but it is what it is.

Since some of you are already talking about 2011, I thought I would list the following, courtesy of MLBTR:

2011 Free Agents

Left fielders

Eric Byrnes (35)
Carl Crawford (29)
David DeJesus (31) - $6MM club option with a $500K buyout
Adam Dunn (31)
Willie Harris (33)
Jason Kubel (29) - $5.25MM club option with a $350K buyout
Jason Michaels (35)
Manny Ramirez (39)


Center fielders

Willie Bloomquist (33)
Jody Gerut (33)
Willie Harris (33)
Andruw Jones (34)
Mark Kotsay (35)
Jason Michaels (35)
Corey Patterson (31)
Willy Taveras (29)


Right fielders

Willie Bloomquist (33)
Jose Guillen (35)
Brad Hawpe (32) - $10MM club option with a $500K buyout
Gabe Kapler (35)
Magglio Ordonez (37) - $15MM club option vests with 135 starts or 540 plate appearances in 2010
Jayson Werth (32)


Take a look at the list. Keep in mind Jayson Werth can play all three OF positions.


My question to the board:

If his 2010 duplicates his 2009, where does he rank in that group of OF?

Go back and read Will's posting at 3:20 this afternoon. That's where you need to hang your hat. Quit griping. RAJ did what he had to do. Smile! We have a great team! Let others envy us.

MG~ I'm not saying they would pay Moyers's contract. Just pay it in such a way that it doesn't hurt them this year.

Olney says it's $15.75M this year (as already contracted), then $20M a year for 3 years and a $20M vesting option. That means Halladay is under contract for us from 2010-2013 and perhaps 2014.

Amaro tried to trade Blanton but nobody wanted him for a good enough price,

What was a "good enough price"? For the possibility of Halladay and Lee in the same rotation, I think you ought to be willing to give up Blanton for very little.

Your Lee vs. Halladay performance analysis is solid, but it neglects to take into account that this isn't a "Cy for Cy" deal. Rube has made a "Cy + Best Pitching Prospect + 1 Of 2 Best OF Prospects for Cy"

Er, he's made a Cy (who is not as good) + Best Pitching Prospect + 1 of 2 Best OF Prospects for Cy (who is better) + Mariners' 2 Best Pitching Prospects deal, surely?

awh: Werth's #1a along with Carl Crawford if he can duplicate his numbers.

Olney tweets:
"Vesting option based on him achieving level of durability close to what he's shown last two seasons. Could make $95.75 mil over next 5 years"

JBird: +1. My fear exactly. No obvious replacement options for players lost to FA in the Farm System, the bullpen still sucks, Ross Gload is only better than Bruntlett in that he can't possibly be worse, & do the Phillies even have a backup catcher? Unless Halladay can pitch 5 or 6 games per playoff series, this deal has left the Phillies worse off, in terms of money & talent, for the next few years than they would have been even if Lee had walked after '10. If the goal is merely to "compete", fine ... but if the Phillies actually expect to have any prayer of beating the likes of New York or Boston in the postseason, it's completely indefensible.

I think the Phils need to cancel the Lee deal and keep him through the summer and trade him when someone really wants him at a premium. I don't like it.

Klaw on the Phillies end of the deal: "The Philadelphia Phillies: They swap one ace for a very slightly better ace in Roy Halladay, whose value over Lee may be as much in his stronger track record as in pitching ability. The price they pay for this small improvement is a major dent in their farm system, trading a superior package of prospects to Toronto for the three players they landed from Seattle in the exchange for Lee. I'm not sure why the Phillies -- who were the favorites to win the NL East in 2010 before this move -- were motivated to make the trade; yes, they can sign Halladay to an extension and couldn't sign Lee, but that's independent of the deals used to obtain one pitcher and trade the other. They might be half a win better in 2010, a whole win at most, but deleted a lot of value from what was a solid farm system before they made the moves."

I just hope we aren't following the Mets' example of gutting the farm and spending big bucks on a few players, leaving you stuck for the rest of the roster.

And I still want more for Lee, but I also believe Amaro must have looked around. Right?

awh, I'd put Werth second to Carl Crawford.

JBird, I think so too. Werth is going to be on eof the top 2 OF in his FA class.

He will get paid.

Patrone, let's say the Phillies are having a good year with Lee and Halladay together in the rotation (as we would expect). Your plan would have them trade Lee in July?

Unless he's traded for equal major league talent and not prospects at that point in the season, I just don't see that happening.

One aspect of this deal that intrigues me and is being overlooked some is this:

Ruben indicated in interviews that he views Philadelphia as a place where big name free agents should want to come and play. He is trying to design this team as a version of something similar to the New York teams, or Boston, or LA teams.

Look at this move: they brought in Lee who then apparently didn't want to sign here after this season. So Amaro then goes out and acquires one of the 5 (or 3) best pitchers in baseball and signs him to an extension that is below market value in terms of guaranteed years, and probably money. The terms indicate- we'll give you the money you want, if you give us the years we want.

It's a gutsy play, but it could be something that has a far reaching effect for us in the pursuit of free agents down the road.

Well, if Keith Law says that Ra-.....

..hey, who's Keith Law?

John: Only if you think that a slightly better, but older, starter + the Mariners' "2 Best Pitching Prospects" + at least $60 million dollars in payroll over the next 3-4 years are even remotely equivalent to losing Drabek, Taylor & 1 year of Lee at $9 million. Which I most emphatically do not.

so according to JWs description of Halladay .. he is Cliff Lee on Roids!

I have no problem with everything about this deal except for what they got back for Lee. Your telling me they couldn't get more in return for him. Now I'm not going to pretend that I know everything about Gillies, Ramirez, and Aumont, but from what I do know the value of prospects that we gave up was alot greater than what we got back in return, and while I consider Halladay a slight upgrade to Lee, I would have though they could have gotten closer to what Toronto got from the Phils in return for a guy that was an absolute beast in postseason.

All of a sudden Keith Law describes Taylor as a "monster" and Drabek as a "#2 starter" now that they aren't Phillies anymore. Previously he'd been down on both.

TTI, but are we going to have the money for FAs down the road? And since we don't have minor league replacements for our players now (or for trade bait), we're going to need FAs to field a team. Aren't we?

PHILADELPHIA -- Utilityman Ross Gload and the Philadelphia Phillies have finalized their $2.6 million, two-year contract, a deal agreed to at the winter meetings last week.

glad we got that out of the way. . . . .

JBird: That's because Law has some vendetta against the Phils, everytime I see him on ESPN and he talks about them he has something negative to say.

TTI: Why do you assume that Lee didn't want to stay in Philadelphia past '10? Either his agent or the Phils' FO aren't telling the truth about the way in which negotiations did (or, as it happens, didn't) go down. Personally, I don't trust either side enough to make a definitive statement on what the breaking point was. Besides which, how will the Phillies be able to pay said FAs when they've got so much money locked up in so few players, Halladay included?

GBrett: It will be tight in 2011 but after that we are looking at a team that will have a lot of open payroll and could be drastically different.

Plus if they can convince a big name or two to come under market value it might work.

Also, no one knows how some players in our system might shake out in a year or two.

G-Town: I don't think i was that they were certain he was going to walk, but I think they were confident that he wanted to test the market, this is the one and only big payday of his career, so he is going to want to get the best value for himself. Amaro did not want to risk him walking, especially when he knew Doc would sign an extension.

"Also, no one knows how some players in our system might shake out in a year or two."

Exactly. Some can shake out for the better, others could flame out, but these guys aren't frozen in time with their current stats/skills.

Werth is, at worst, second on that list -- behind Crawford. You could make a case that he's first. Barring a major increase in payroll, or a major trade, there's no way the Phillies can afford him.

Here's another thing to consider. Domonic Brown is yet another left-handed bat (Taylor was right-handed). He CANNOT replace Jayson Werth, unless one of the other 3 left-handed bats goes. The Phillies are already pushing the envelope with 3 left-handed hitters in the 3-6 spots in the order. 4 straight left-handers is simply not going to work.

So since we are talking about 2011 already and beyond...Is it fair to say based on NEPP's outline about that we are going to be really shopping in the bargain bin OR are we going to say goodbye to some of our core after this season??

Skip: There are three major reasons the Phils are giving up more than they're getting.

1) Roy Halladay is better than Cliff Lee.
2) Roy Halladay is signing an extension, Cliff Lee is not.
3) Toronto is paying Philly $6M, Philly is not paying Seattle anything.

Those are three pretty big reasons. The idea that we'd get equal return from Seattle as we're giving Toronto is just plain crazy.

G-Town: My assumption is there were more developed talks about an extension than what Lee's agent is letting on.

I doubt (although it is possible) that Amaro met with the agent for about an hour and then said, "We ain't signing him. Ship him out." There must have been some indication or word that Lee was going to cost a lot of money. If not that, maybe it was stated that he planned on testing free agency where he gains leverage and ups his price. If the Phillies go after him now they hold the cards and are basically bidding against themselves. If Lee hits the market then it becomes a bidding war, and you don't always win those.

The old adage is, "where there is smoke, there's fire." My guess would be something spooked Amaro and the FO which necissitated the move. I know what Lee's agent said but it wouldn't be the first time an agent covered his tracks.

CJ: Amaro doesn't have any balls.

Every single GM could trade away 3 of their best prospects when they have the 4th highest ranked farm system in the bigs.

Every single GM could sign a guy for $20mil/yr if ownership gave him that money.

Every single GM could trade away an ace who is only owed $9mil for a litter of underwhelming prospects with no immediate impact in the majors.

Amaro did absolutely nothing that any run of the mill GM has done. He took a position of high leverage and pissed it away on an average deal at best.

Has the Lee deal been made official yet?

BAP: Good point that others including myself didn't realize. That is why I think Brown is still set to replace Ibanez after 2011. I think that the 2011 free agent list isn't exactly stellar, however there are a couple people that we could pick up to repalce Werth in right and not get crushed salary wise.

bitch, bitch, bitch..... just cause we win a world series doesnt make these guys immortal...... i love the general as much as the next guy but the move makes sense.....

* exclude Ed Wade from "every single GM"

CJ: your right, but that doesn't explain that Seattle trade raped us. Getting equal in return for Lee is maybe asking for a little to much, but your telling me that if they would have shopped him around longer they couldn't have gotten something better back in return.

Phaithful: Wow a little anti Amaro just a tad?

Reminder:

New players

Halladay, Castro, Gload, Schneider, Polanco

Departures

Lee, Bruntlett, Stairs, Bako, Feliz, Taylor, Drabek, D'Arnaud

Also remember Phillies are only paying Halladay $9 mil this season (Toronto is paying him $6 mil). We still have about $10 mil to spend this year on 3 bullpen hands. Overall, we are still in good shape.

I am also now aware of the fact that our prospects are gone, but at least we are better now than last year up to now.

To go with that other post I forgot to list the guys we got from Seattle on our "new players" list.

"they couldn't have gotten something better back in return."

Maybe, but from who?
BoSox are out of it now they have Lackey.

Yanks dealt their prospects for Granderson and/or do the Phils want to ship him to NYY and have to (maybe) face him in the WS?

LAD? Why help a potential playoff rival?
NYM? See above.
LAA? Maybe here.
Tex? Have prospects, but haven't really seen their name in the hunt for a big pitcher.

Who else?

OK guys I don't know how to get to the archives but sometime ago during the 3rd base discussions I suggested that we trade Mike Taylor for Brett Wallace as an even trade. Too bad we didn't although he might now have been on his way to Toronto. Just thought I looked good given the pros made the same decision.

I am thrilled we got Halladay and I know you can't count on prospects to make it but in Taylor and Drabek I think these guys produced on every level I am not so sure that getting a proven 32 year old pitcher who has to be just past his prime is worth giving up an unproven but highly likely to succeed pitcher who we might bring back for very big bucks 10 years from now.

TTI: Fair enough. I simply think it would be a damn shame if all of this happened because one or both sides were making assumptions &/or playing negotiating games at the expense of actually communicating.

"All of a sudden Keith Law describes Taylor as a "monster" and Drabek as a "#2 starter" now that they aren't Phillies anymore. Previously he'd been down on both."

I was surprised by this as well...I even had an email excahnge with him from July where he described Drabek as a #3 at best (or a reliever) and Taylor projecting as a slightly above average OF, and that the Phils and Jays simply didn't match up as trade partners because there wasn't enough impact talent in the Phils' system. Now suddenly the Jays made out by acquiring Drabek, Taylor, and D'Arnaud? KLaw has a weird vendetta against the Phils for some reason...I wonder if it has something to do with his time in the BJs front office.

MVP: I think you hit it on the head. Amaro has done a great job with every aspect of his job expect for the Moyer signing last year and I think he whiffed on the Lee deal. I just feel they could have gotten more from Seattle or some other team, but if you take the trade as a whole it was a good trade, but not a great trade, it only becomes a great trade if one of the prospects they got from Seattle pans out.

"He took a position of high leverage and pissed it away on an average deal at best."

And that doesn't take major ball?

It's easy to make the deals that everyone thinks you win. It's hard to make the deals that has people scratching their heads.

I'm checking out until a Lee deal is finalized I can't take this speculation anymore.

Does anyone wish we traded Werth instead of Lee and kept Taylor (and Brown) to replace Werth? That could have been interesting...

CJ: If so, Omar Minaya has the biggest sack in the history of Major League Baseball.

Maybe Bud Selig will veto this deal... he did veto A-Rod to the Red Sox, thats how the Yankees got A-Rod.

"32 year old pitcher who has to be just past his prime"

RK, Are you serious?

Bedrosion: LAA would be my number one choice, they seem desperate at this point. I'm not sure of the team, because I don't have every teams farm system memorized, but I guarantee there was a better deal out there than getting 3 marginal prospects in return for a guy who was the only good pitcher on a staff that was 2 wins away from a World Series.

http://ussmariner.com/2009/12/14/the-deal-as-we-know-it/

This is why I am upset. Read the comments. Its like beerleaguer after Cliff Lee trade V 1.0. They are shocked they did not have to give up saunders, morrow, or truinfel

The only thing that would make that statement true is if Amaro thought Lee was due for a bad year and that Drabek/Taylor were overhyped and sold high on them.

If thats what Amaro thought and it pans out, then he does have some major balls.

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EST. 2005

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