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Wednesday, November 11, 2009


MVP - Figgins is worth it because he is a pure leadoff hitter (Walks, singles, speed)that we need. It would allow to move Jimmy down where his Xbase hits would be better suited.

He also plays good D and can play multiple positions. So he can spell utley and possibly Rollins, thus decreasing the need for a super utility bench player.

He is a better fit for the team. Whether he is worth the extra X amount of millions is debatable.

Beltre + Hairston Jr
Figgins and lesser bench player.

I would take figgins and lesser bench player. He makes our lineup better everyday. I would not be mad at all if they got Beltre though. He is my #2.

From the end of last thread:

CY: You do realize that with Beltre you could have Vic be our leadoff hitter right? Vic, Utley/Beltre, Beltre/Utley, Howard, Werth, Rollins/Ibanez, Ibanez/Rollins, Ruiz.

Also, I would prefer a Beltre/Hairston combo rather than a Figgins/Lesser Bench player, say Bruntlett springs to mind.

Figgins doesn't even steal many bases as my post above shows. So you are signing a guy to 10 million dollars to hit singles basically? When you can have Beltre hit for power, drop Jimmy down in the lineup,plays better defense AND costs less. Seems like a no brainer to me.

MVP - I see your points and they are valid. I do not think that Cholly would change the lineup to what you suggested though. He would simply plug in Beltre into Pedro's slot.

I would take Figgins OBP + Speed over Beltre's power and cost.

Rube, raise the payroll 3 million and make it happen. Doesn't seem like that much of a stretch. We did go the the WS. a 2% increase in payroll seems reasonable.

CY: Alright, I am good with eithier. But I just do not want to see Stairs, Bruntlett or Cairo sitting on our bench next year. Please Rube!!!

Here is a link to a good article about leadoff hitters from FranGraphs.

Is Figgens really worth 10 million?

Tommy - Figgins steals a lot of bags. Your posts simply show your hastiness to prove your predetermined conclusion. For one thing, Figgins played in fewer than 120 games in 2007 and 2008 but managed to steal 41 and 34 bases nonetheless. He managed to steal as many bases in fewer games. In 2005 and 2006, he stole a combined 114 bases. Not that I see any point in comparing him to Rollins or Vic to divine his value.

Sophist: That's wonderful. In 2005 and 2006, he was 27 and 28 years old. Now he is going to be 32. He is going to be a 35-40 bag stealer here on out whether you like it or not. The best bang for the buck is Beltre.

Rob Neyer is digging on Rollins and Victorino's awards. He claims Tulowitski was much more deserving of the GG this year and in 2007 for that matter.

Although he does complain that Utley should have won the GG at second base each of the last five years so he gets a few cool point back

Figgins isn't worth more money than Beltre because he's a better fit as a leadoff hitter. He's worth more money because he's a better player than Beltre. The fangraphs author's point isn't that Figgins isn't worth more. It's that lineup position needs should not play a large role in free agent signing considerations.

MVP - I am good with either as well. I said a few days ago that I would be extremely happy if Rube netted us - Beltre, Hairston, Lyon, Eye and Park as our offseason haul. Almost identical to what you like.

I can't deal with bruntlet another year either. There have got to be a few vets left at the end that would be willing to take any major league deal. I will take any of those please.

Tommy - Point is, Figgins stole bags at similar rates from ages 27-30, undermining your belief that "he's a 35-40 bag stealer from here on out." Take a longer look at the stat pages next time. Besides, you act like stealing 40 bags is yawn-worthy. Know how many players stole 40 or more in all of MLB last year? 7. Know how many had OBP higher than Figgins? 0.

If the Phillies keep Bruntlett, they are saying that he is one of the 750 best baseball players in the world. I struggle with that idea.

if the phillies get jose valverde, wheeler is going to go ape____. does anyone remember the telecast during a game vs the astros this year when it was all wheeler could do to restrain himself from sharing his true feelings about valverde? in the end [and because he was on air], wheeler had to resort to calling him "different" about 8 or 9 times. for chris' sake, vote no on prop valverde!

Why will Cholly bat Fiiggins 1st. That is Jimmy's spot. He'll just get plugged into Pedro's spot.Like Chan Ho and sp, Figgins needs a bat 1st guarantee.

Debates between sophist and mvptommy are like debates between the ego and the id. One is logic and fact based, the other is emotion based.

My analysis (if anyone's interested):

Utley should have won at 2B. By both UZR and +/-, he's been consistently the top or one of the top defensive 2B in the league. He doesn't make a ton of Web Gem type plays, but he's positioned perfectly and gets to so many more balls because of it.

Rollins might not have been the best SS in the league, but he's close, and thus a defensible choice. He's very good. While I think Tulo is very good as well, I wonder why Neyer claims the numbers support Tulo, when Tulo has a significantly worse UZR than Rollins.

I don't think Shane deserves it. Both the advanced stats and my eyes indicate that he's merely an average CF. His hustle masks the fact that he's not a very natural defender. A guy like Beltran looks much smoother out there, and people assume Victorino covers more ground because of how hard he runs to get to balls, while Beltran just glides; in fact, the opposite is true.

I figure the baseball lifers who vote these things have a pretty good idea about who's performing. If not -- if it's just a popularity contest -- why get worked up about it? No one has ever used his GG to win a single game.

I'm with Jack. Chase definitely deserved it. It's a crime that he hasn't won a gold glove or an MVP yet.

Jimmy was defensible, but Shane definitely didn't deserve it. If anyone from our outfield deserved it, it should've been Werth, even with the UZR dip.

Based on nothing but naked eye observation, I'd say Rollins was better, Victorino was the same and Utley was slightly worst, defensively, than in 2008.

I have to agree with JW.

On another positive note..

I agree with Weitzel. I love Utley and no one plays smarter, but how is he a better fielder (i.e. more range, better hands, better arm, fewer errors etc.) than Brandon Phillips?

bay_area_phan made the uber-post of the decade in the last thread and _NOBODY_ acknowledged it. You people are slacking off.

bay_area_phan, you are the man!

From the previous thread:


I know I'm not on top of my game today, but what does that mean?

Posted by: Bubba:"

Bubba, it stands for:

"This is total sarcasm, so if you believe any of it you are a fool".

Now, mind you, I was going to use only the first four words and typed out the acronym, but then I looked at what it actually spelled "T*TS", and was aghast at what I had done.

Not wanting to offend any of the ladies who frequent the site, I added the rest of it.

I have too much respect for some of the regular posters like 'double h' and 'phargo' to needlessly offend them.

Well, as far as the GGs are concerned, I guess things like NOT making errors still matter.

Rollins made only six all season, and has the second highest fielding percentage all-time next to Visquel. That's not chopped liver.

Vic had only one, yes ONE, error all season. He was sixth in putouts among OF.

The combo of the two probably got him his second GG.

I agree that Vic looks 'uncomfortable' and 'shaky' at times when he's roaming the OF. But face it, his speed makes up for a lot of poor initial routes that he takes to balls.

To be sixth in putouts ain't shabby, and when a OF catches nearly every one of the balls he gets to, the voters take notice.

the most bizarre thing about the Gold Gloves:


that's the OPS+ posted by each GG winner. apparently there are no more good field/no hit players in baseball (except Jimmy Rollins)!

almost makes you long for the days of Bobby Wine (hit .215/.241/.306, won a Gold Glove).

Every dirty dog will have its day

****I agree with Weitzel. I love Utley and no one plays smarter, but how is he a better fielder (i.e. more range, better hands, better arm, fewer errors etc.) than Brandon Phillips?****

Yet his UZR is well above Phillips. I dont know how you can watch Utley every day and not appreciate how good a fielder he is. Just because he makes every play look routine and isn't flashy doesnt make him any less of amazing. He's a small step above Phillips and both are far above Hudson (who is living off his reputation from 4 years ago). Utley has gotten better every year he's been in the majors. The guy's incredible. Remember how we all freaked because he had 2 bad throws in the playoffs? That's because he NEVER makes that bad throw or play...ever.

"That's because he NEVER makes that bad throw or play...ever."

NEPP, didn't you just contradict yourself in the space of two sentences?

Utley reminds me a little bit of Cal Ripken in his ability to position himself. I remember people saying Ripken couldn't really play short because he was too big.

Crazy as it may sound, I think Utley may suffer in the golden glove consideration because he has a certain herky jerky quality to his play in the field. Contrast his play with J-Roll. Utley just doesn't have that smooth, under control look or that sharp, snap throw to first. I've always thought his throws looked awkward, and I've often wondered if he could even make the long, in the hole throw from the SS position to first without bouncing it.

He just gets the job done, over and over, in every facet of his game; and fielding is one aspect where style points stand out and can overshadow stats.

i just saw on the espn bottom line thing that rube announced he's not trading cole hamels. i didn't realize an announcement needed to be made.

Spend the Money!

There is no salary cap, but the Phils do have a number limit I guess. They sell out almost every game, and if you go to games, or live in the Philly area you know that they sell a ton of "gear". As long as they are winning! I see extra money spent, striking while the iron is hot, so to speak, is wise money spent. Phils need a leadoff hitter, and he is not Rollins. Go for Figgins I say, he will help pack the stands with exiting baseball and a winning type of baseball.

I bring up Neyer's mentioning of Utley b/c he waxed about how twelve years from now when Utley is up for HOF consideration the detractors will say he was one dimensional since he never one the gold glove.

I'd say a 2B who bats .300 cranks 30 hrs and drives in 100 for eight of his seasons and wins 5 GGs (as Neyer believes he deserves) in that time is an indisputable lock for the Hall in my oppinion.

I wonder if Uggla can be had and converted to 3B.

Mulcahy's fielding awards:

Victorino: Are you kidding me? Guy's legs get him to balls that his brain doesn't comprehend.

Werth: Terrific.

Utley: Guts and guile = gold glover

Rollins: well-deserved. rarely makes a misplay

Feliz: no stick = no hardware

Howard: please spend hte next 4 months practicing throws to 2d, 3d and home

Ruiz: See Feliz

Uggla is a butcher in the field. A BUTCHER. Great bat, but I cringe to think how many runs we'd give back with him at the hot corner.

How about Omar Vizquel for our super utility? He says he is looking for a similar role that he had with Tex but with a higher profile team.

Seems like a good match. At least defensively.

I just read Neyer's column.

He has lost credibility with me in the past, but now he has exposed himself as a complete fool...a total and complete fool.

He's complaining that Gonzalez got the GG at 1B instead of Pujols and says it must be because he made less errors.

OMG! Rob Neyer is shocked.....shocked that a statistic like fielding errors actually might be used by voters to determine who they vote for in the GG awards.

There are many things in this world that do not make sense. Neyer's column is one of them.

Stupid. Just plain Stupid.

Hugh, I agree with everything you posted except your blip about Vic.

Yes, Vic takes bad routes.

(Yes he makes dumb mistakes baserunning which have nothing to do with fielding.)

But the facts are very simple:

Because of those legs he was 6th among NL OF in putouts, 4th among CF. And he only made one (1) error. ONE.

So.....he doesn't always look pretty, but those legs do erase the errors in judging fly balls. They erase snough of them that he GETS to more balls than most OF.

And when he gets there he catches virtually everything.

Last I checked, actualy catching the ball is what they're supposed to do, no?

Oh, in case anybody missed it or even cares, Brad Lidge's "evaluatory" surgery on his elbow did reveal enough damage that they had to do surgery on the ligament.

Imagine that - they took a guy with ligament damage into the playoffs.

Not a great move by the Phils. Maybe not such a great move by Lidge.

OTOH, you have to give kudos to Eyre and Lidge for toughing it out and taking one for the team.

I'm just not sure putting an injured and ineffective closer on the playoff roster was the smart thing to do.

awh- Thanks for the explanation on your abbreviation... and I agree with your views on Vic.
His speed more than makes up for his sometimes defecient instincts , and very few errors with a lot of chances still counts in gold glove voting.

awh- agreed - catch the damn ball. I can't erase the memory of that one ball in game 4(?) from my mind.

Uggla's fielding % is significantly higher than Beltre's...granted at a different position. Uggla has made 55 errors since '06, Beltre has made 61. Ugglas can't be worse than Dobbs. The Orioles and Giants are interested in Uggla at 3rd.

AWH: You can't go back and second guess now. The fact is that Eyre and Lidge did overall good jobs in the playoffs. Besides Lidge's crucial game against the Yankees, he pitched well. We were 2 games away from being repeat World Series Champions. I am still confident that had the injuries been detected/made public before the playoffs and we had replaced them with Condrey and Walker, the result would not have been the same.

Yo, newer thread

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