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Friday, November 06, 2009

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You sound so angry, JW. I like it.

Seems the Phillies are consistently less than forthcoming about player injuries and the status thereof.

To me, it's like they're forthcoming about everyone except Lidge.

I wonder if that $12 million the Phillies are paying him this year had anything to do with it.

Hell, guys have been throwing with sore arms since baseball became a paying gig. I wouldn't be sore about it. Lidge was a pitch away from being perfect this post-season.

How do we know that Lidge wasn't hiding his injury from the Phillies?

Of course, I'd believe that the Phillies hid this from the fans, too...it's just upsetting either way you look at it.

Interestingly, Mo Rivera was also nursing a sore rib cage.

As frustrating as it is that Lidge might have been dealing with an injury during the season/postseason, I suspect nagging injuries are the rule, not the exception once you make it deep in the postseason.

Still a little too soon J, I know. Let it out big guy.

Have to agree on both points. I think most people assumed something was wrong with Lidge health-wise this year, but we all thought just the knee. To hear now it is also the elbow makes it pretty remarkable they kept stringing him along to blow games for us. Here's to hoping they sign a bullpen arm who can actually be a closer if necessary.

On Feliz, no way they should pick up that option. Explore all trade and free agent options first. And this may have been covered in last thread where I didn't read the whole thing, but I would actually like to see Chone Figgins as my first choice. I know he is older, but I think he could be a potential leadoff man if Rollins doesn't return to form, which would help this offense immensely.

JW, pretty solid post. I love the emotion. Regarding Lidge, this does come as a shock regarding the "loose bodies". But Lidge did save 3 games in the playoffs. Although he did blow maybe the season in that Yankees Game 4, I still would rather have him over Tyler Walker, Bastardo,Condrey, Escalona or anyone else they would have trudged in there.

With Feliz, I agree with your opinion along with it seems like most posters regarding paying the 500K to opt out, then resigning him for 3 Million in order to use the extra 2 million on bench help/bullpen. BUT the only thing in the back of my mind is that with the pending arbitration to Vic and others, Amaro CAN NOT AFFORD more than 5 million to that 3rd base slot. So, if by chance Feliz does sign in a Seattle, Pittsburgh or team like that, Amaro better be sure he can get a replacement at a lateral move at least.

I think Beltre and Figgins are going to command between 7-10 million, so they are out. Where do you go? Crede, Derosa, Adam Kennedy? Or do you try to trade for Garrett Adkins or somebody like that?

I agree with the concept of declining the option, but the thought of it backfiring in our face leaves me a little nervous.

I hate to talk Yankees' on this site, but I am watching their "parade" and this is what happened so far:

1.) Jay-Z and Arod shared a float together

2.) Kate Hudson, Mika Kelly( Jeter's GF) and Gossip girl actress Joanna Garcia (Swishers' GF) got to be on a float.

3.) The players intro song to the main stage was "We Like to Party". This song is the worst. A bad "club" song from 1998.

4.) The Yankees announcers introduced Mayor Bloomsburg and told the crowd to congratulate him on winning the Mayor's Election and half the crowd boo'ed.

In conclusion, New York is the worst!

Why in the world would someone think the Pirates would sign Feliz to replace LaRoche at 3B? LaRoche is 10 years younger, a way better hitter and as good a fielder.

they have the damn Yankee parade on in my office. they are actually ragging on the phillies. I want to throw a stapler through the flat screen.

Feliz is a replacement level bat w/ an above average (but declining according to UZR over the past few years) glove. That's worth $1mm at most. You can find plenty of good glove bad bat guys to take that spot if you can't have your cake and eat it too.

What do people think about Atkins? What will he demand relative to Feliz? Can't imagine he'd be too much more. Has crushed LHP in the past.

Nothing like winning a championship and then putting down your opponent. I suppose it's the same as when Rollins put down the Mets at last year's parade, but then again, we didn't play them in the WS.

I thought the NYY had won a few championships before?

Maybe I'm nuts but if Lidge has an elbow problem it could be good news. If it can be adequately repaired, maybe he can regain his mojo. If it was just a head problem....well we might be saddled with 12 million for the next couple of years and get almost nothing in return.

Seriously, they are ragging on the Phillies? What are they saying? I can't remember a single mention of the Rays last year.

PHIinBK: Get the hell out of there man. There is only so much a person can take and I'm sure that would be way over the threshold.

i'm stuck watching the parade in my office too. i hate bloomberg. he said he was going to send jimmy rollins a new crystal ball for christmas.

Just don't watch, PHlinBK. Of course they're ragging on the Phillies, thanks to Jimmy's infamous prediction, plus the fact that post-WS, Charlie and Jimmy are still saying things like we have the better team and the Yankees were better than us THIS series (which Joe Torre got criticized by Phillies fans for saying - well, saying that about the Phils w/respect to the Dodgers - after the NLCS).

I haven't watched any more of the Yankees' celebrating than I've accidentally seen, only a few seconds' worth. It's worked for me. I know I should be happy for any team that wins it all, but I've disliked the Yankees for my entire baseball life. I prefer not to see them celebrate, esp. at our expense.

Still, they have the right to celebrate and even to gloat a little bit. Just a little, otherwise it gets obnoxious. (It wouldn't surprise me if they do get obnoxious.) Just say no to watching, block it out as best you can.

"Amaro CAN NOT AFFORD more than 5 million to that 3rd base slot"

You don't know that.

clout: La Roche has yet to hit in Pittsburgh or Los Angeles despite high expectations. While he's still young, Pittsburgh management has publicly expressed some frustration with his development and, more importantly, drafted their 3B of the future and are fast-tracking him to hte majors. Expected arrival time is mid-year '10 or April '11. I would not be surprised if La Roche and his promise are moved for another piece this off-season as the Pirates have gone trade-happy.

Well, Jimmy did predict the Phils and Yanks would meet in the WS, so half of his prediction was spot on. I think if Mayor Bloomberg has a crystal ball, he should use it for better things, like preventing his city from getting bombed by terrorists for one.

I have no interest in watching a Yankee parade. Let em say what they want. Who cares?

Loose bodies in his elbow would explain the drop in velocity he's had over the past couple seasons. This is a guy that used to routinely throw 96-98 with Houston to compliment his slider. That's a far cry from the 93-95 he has been with us on a good day.

Jason,

Glad to see you're in the game. I was a little worried when I read about your "final thoughts" on the Phillies.

Agreed on Feliz.

On Lidge, not enough info (and I wonder whether we will ever get it) to decide whether it rises to the level of throwing stuff at the wall, gritting my teeth, or shrugging my shoulders. He was a bit better in the post season than the regualr season, and it may have been a rational decision to (1) choose him over the alternative; and (2) once that decision was made, to keep it quiet to avoid the distraction it would create and so as not to provide any data at all to the opposition brain trust.

Bed Beard: I do know that. Their budget is going to be around $140 million this upcoming year. They only have around $15 Million to spend. They need 2 or 3 bullpen guys, 3 bench guys and a 3rd baseman. If you think he can spend more than $5 million on a 3rd baseman and still accomplish everything else, then more power to you.

So the Yankees having their girlfriends means they suck?

Have you seen Kate Hudson, Minka Kelly, and Joanna Garcia? That is to hot women what Ruth, Maris, and Gehrig were to the Yankess line-up in the 1920's. Especially the latter two.

Seriously stop watching the parade if it bugs you. Why would you watch the other team celebrate winning the championship and then complain? Do you really have nothing better to do?

The Phillies will undoubtedly pick up the Feliz option. That's the least of their problems. He's what they need at 3rd Base. Other options will be much more costly, and probably not as good. Check what's available.

Is Scott Eyre's "loose body" in his elbow or his stomach?

Myers is gone. Amaro Jr. gives no explanation. Just adios. No amigos.

TTI: I think one of the guys was being forced to watch it, but I have no idea why someone would watch on purpose. I'm watching bad movies all day...

If my company made me watch the parade at work, I'd go home sick.

Looks like Myers is done in Philly. RSB can rejoice!

As for the Yanks I see it like this. I'd rather be the team taking off my cap to the winners than the team taking off my pants and saying "suck it" to the losers. Stay classy Yanks.

TNA: No shock there. I thought that ship sailed long ago.

At about 8 million, Figgins, Atkins or Beltre can provide a massive upgrade at 3B for only a few million dollars. That is absolutely the correct move and the direction I'd expect Amaro to go.

Figgins would probably demand more than 8 million, but the others are coming off bad years and could be cheaper. They all add balance to the lineup as right-handed or switch-hitters. Beltre has the highest upside; if Charlie can get him hitting home runs again, he can potentially hit 30 in CBP.

"The Phillies will undoubtedly pick up the Feliz option."

Not sure Ruben agress with you. If he did, wouldn't it be done by now, a la Lee?

Sounds to me like they're looking at their options in the next few days. I'll actually be surprised to see them pick it up.

My friend out here in LA used to date LaRoche...potential yes...but we don't want him. Trust me on this...he's a poor man's version of Pat Burrell (performance and lifestyle)

The problem with Feliz is I don't think he was ever healthy until the beginning of this season. He was damaged goods the day he arrived (back).

We need somebody who's not past their prime...and completely healthy. For 3B that is far and few between.

Rich Aurilia (38) - too old
Brian Barden (29) - who?
Adrian Beltre (31) - too expensive?
Wilson Betemit (28) - who?
Geoff Blum (37) - too old
Aaron Boone (37) - too old and hurt
Craig Counsell (39) - bench player
Joe Crede (32)
Bobby Crosby (30)
Mark DeRosa (35) - too injured
Pedro Feliz (35) - $5 mil huh?
Chone Figgins (32) - yes please
Nomar Garciaparra (36) - no way
Troy Glaus (33) - coming off alot of injuries
Adam Kennedy (34)- does he have any pop left?
Mike Lamb (34)- past his prime
Mark Loretta (38) - too old
Melvin Mora (38) - too old and exspensive
Pablo Ozuna (35)- who?
Robb Quinlan (33)- who?
Miguel Tejada (36) - not his real age
Juan Uribe (31) - hmmmmm

I'd say Uribe, Figgins would be the best options out there otherwise Feliz for 5 million is probably not the worst thing. At least he's steady for defense, always has been.

From that Myers article:

"It just didn’t hit me as hard as I thought it would. I kind of felt it coming." Myers said Amaro gave him no reason for the decision not to attempt to extend the relationship between the team and the pitcher. "I was just like, 'OK, thanks for putting up with my (stuff),' " Myers said. "He thanked me and wished me and my family well. "I’ll miss the guys on the team and the fans who have supported me. Hopefully I’ll be playing against the Phillies and when I do I want the roughest treatment the fans can give me – when I’m pitching. I’m an opposing player – you have to give it to me."

Bed Beard: I do know that.

I just love when you can read the first 5 or 6 words of a post and identify the poster without looking down.

sophist: Atkins has a career OPS+ of 103 (Feliz has not had an OPS+ above 81 in 4 years), but had a really bad year last season, which should hold down his value. But it would probably take a multi-year contract, likely in excess of $5M per (although not much in excess). He's 29 so a 3-year deal wouldn't kill you. He'd be a great righty complement to Werth and a HUGE boost to the offense.

Hugh: LaRoche had an OPS+ of 97 this past season. Feliz had an OPS+ of 80. Please explain how Feliz would be an upgrade.

donc: What is that supposed to mean? I really hope Amaro just picks up the option to save my sanity. There is no way the Phillies are going to spend more than 5 million for a 3rd baseman, zero chance.

i'd say go for beltre if at all possible, great glove, maybe he can rediscover some of his hitting form with a better hitting instructor in charlie manuel. in cbp, i could see him as another 30 HR guy.

as far as pitching goes, i would like to see the phils go in to next season with madson as the closer. maybe an offseason to prepare for that role will be good for him. for the rotation, the biggest question for me is what to do with moyer. first, is there any chance of him retiring after this injury? second, does he start the year in the bullpen or in the rotation? i'd personally rather see moyer in the bullpen if he stays, mostly due to how left handed our rotation would be with him.

with the way kendrick pitched up here last year, i think he's the best in-house candidate for the fifth starter spot. he seems to have really improved since his lucky rookie year. i'd be okay with resigning myers if he took a good hometown discount, but i don't think there's any way we resign pedro. he did a great job, but it seemed like he was breaking down in the world series and he didn't even pitch the first three-fourths of the season.

seething with anger over the lidge thing. Why say there's nothing wrong with the guy AND keep using him like you normally would if there's something wrong with the guy? Dammit.

Atkins was terrible this year and has been declining for a while. And he's always sucked away from Coors.

im kinda torn on Myers, but I would lean to it is time to part ways.

As to Feliz, I would reserve judgment until we know what the alternative is in terms of who and how much. As I said yesterday I would put Vic on the block for pitching and make a run at Derosa for 3b, although I am not a fan of getting older.

clout: I didn't say Feliz would be an upgrade on La Roche. I said the Pirates might be looking to move La Roche for help at another position. They have no realistic designs on winning next year and indications are the Pirates are dubious that La Roche will be in the picture when they are able to contend [if ever, cough, cough] I'm not saying they should sign Feliz or trade La Roche, but don't be surprised if and when something like it happens.

Andy Laroche costs .4 million and produced 2.5 wins. His '09 wOBA was .324, a nearly 100 point jump from '08. He's 25.

The Pirates will ditch him and sign Pedro Feliz.

Hamels sucks.

Vic is our youngest position player and he is a great all around player. Why trade him?

There aren't that many gold glover CFs that can hit floating around out there.

Tommy: That's the quote that stuck out at me too. For all the stupid stuff Myers does (on and off the field), he seems to be a "good guy" at heart. And no one can ever question his drive, determination or competitiveness. He's just an idiot (for lack of a better term), but he at least acknowledges that he was difficult: "...thanks for putting up with my (stuff)."

Will I be sad to see him go? I don't believe I will. Unless, of course he has a great year in 2010. Best of luck, Brett.

I didn't want Myers back, except maybe in the bullpen.

I knew Lidge was injured more than he and the Phillies were letting on, so I am not really that surprised. I am upset that the elbow report is only coming out now. However Lidge did fine in the playoffs except for his World Series appearance.

I'd like to see the Phillies get Figgins or Beltre but both will probably be out of their price range, and frankly I don't want to give either one too much $ and years anyway. I wouldn't mind exercising the option on Felix but they can probably get him back cheaper if they don't. Of course as other said if it backfires that could be an issue.

R. Bill: I am sad to see him go, only because he was such a hard worker. And That CC at bat, along with the pitching performance last year against the Dodgers will forever remain in my mind. And if by chance he does come back here next year, I wiill not give him the "rough treatment". Becuase he doesn't deserve that.

Not signing Feliz is a gamble. I mean, he never really lived up to expectations offensively, but he's been great defensively. Certainly, he was better than Wes Helms, Abe Nunez, and David Bell with the glove and the bat, and better than Dobbs with the glove (and this year with the bat too).

If they don't sign him and then fail to upgrade with Figgins or Beltre, they could find themselves in much worse shape.

timr: They are my exact feelings as well.

Not sure I get the Lidge anger. Who knows when those "loose bodies" showed up? And let's not forget that he was a Johnny Damon strike from being our best reliever in the playoffs. It wasn't like we had obviously better options than him to fill the roster with.

The World Series was nice and all, but this is what Beerleaguer is about. Feliz vs LaRoche, Atkins splits, what's RJ Swindle doing?

"Vic is our youngest position player and he is a great all around player. Why trade him?

There aren't that many gold glover CFs that can hit floating around out there."

I would assume Werth couldbe a GG CF'er.

Myers leaving is not a huge loss and it was expected. Good luck, Brett.

Tommy: What makes you say that Brett was "such a hard worker"? Did you catch a glimpse of him working on a PennDot crew or something. He's been here his entire career and finally in his contract year he decided to come to spring training in shape. I think of him as a disappointment. I expected more of him for the first few years but eventually realized that what you see is what you get. He really stood out as an assclown on such a likeable team.

On Lidge:

"I am shocked — shocked— to find that Lidge is going to have surgery!"

It took the Phils less than 48 hours to announce this. I thought it would closer to 24 hours instead.

Thought it was going to be that knee but you have to wonder if he didn't try to compensate for the knee injury and altered his mechanics that placed additional shoulder and arm. Isn't uncommon at all when a pitcher gets a leg injury that alters his mechanics that it eventually leads to a shoulder/elbow injury.

On the other hand, you now that the junk about "it being all mental" was largely cr@p and that Lidge has a chance to come back healthy and ready to pitch next year.

Worse case scenario is the Phils find out that Lidge needs extensive elbow surgery and might miss some real time. If that is the case, they are largely up the creek because they can't afford another expensive alternative at closer unless they move a moderately-priced piece and they don't have an internal closer to take over for Lidge.

If the Phils did keep trotting Lidge out there and they knew about the injury (and I bet they did), then it was doubly stupid because it impacted them on the field and it might have a real impact on their ability to win next year too.

Donc: Maybe you are right, but I always liked him.

Klaus is breaking me up.

mvp - Your kidding about Myers right? He is your prototypical guy who gets far in life because of phenomenal natural talent and does the bare minimum amount of work/drive to get by. While he can be charming/engaging, he has a ton of personal demons and at his worst is just a real scumbag.

Easily one of the most difficult players to root for in a Phils' uniform of the past 20 years because of his antics on and off the field from the horrendous domestic violence incident to him showing up fat & out of shape on a couple of occasions in a Phils' uniform.

MG: Well if your going to put it like that it is somewhat true. All I said, is I like him for the sole fact at least that he helped us win a WS. Also, there has been many examples of Brett being at Clearwater with his family at the diner and picking up Phillies fans tabs.

Joel: Mike Krukow, the Giants' announcer, refers to Juan Uribe as "Pedro Feliz Lite." Enough said.

It seems to me that, if the Phillies planned to exercise Feliz's option, they would have done it by now. They've had all season to think about this decision. Surely, they don't need 3 additional days to ruminate on it.

Personally, I don't see a huge risk in letting him go. There are enough options on the FA market alone that I'd be very surprised if they can't upgrade. And, in the worst case scenario, they can always resign him later at a reduced price. The chances of Eric Bruntlett ending up as their 2010 third baseman, as someone in the last thread suggested, are literally 0%. In fact, the chances of Eric Bruntlett being on the 2010 roster at all are 0%.

BAP: I said that about Bruntlett, but I was being sarcastic. I agree that Bruntlett will be gone.

I thought the Lidge procedure was to look for loose bodies, not that they're confirmed.

Of course, we trusted some innings to Eyre and his shaky elbow too.

BAP: Agree with you on Uribe. He's one guy on the list who I don't believe would be an upgrade.

NEPP: Atkins' career OPS at CBP: .924

MVP: That's cool. We all have our people we like and don't like. The one thing I really agree with you on is appreciating his contribution to winning the 2008 world series. It's easy to quickly forget that stuff. It especially easy at this particular time. Right now it's pretty easy to be down on a few of our guys but 20 years from now none of last year's team should need a wallet in a Philadelphia watering hole. At least they won't if I'm around.

I'm puzzled why people think no word yet on Feliz means he's gone. Rube moved quickly on both keeping Lee and ashcanning Myers. Maybe he's trying to figure out who Feliz' replacement would be before pulling the trigger.

Loose bodies? The only loose bodies are floating in Lidge's head, not his elbow.

Can't wait to see what Rube pulls out of the hat for the 3B position.

If Eric Bruntlett is on this roster next year (he won't be) I'd be almost as mad as I was at the Michael Vick signing. And I am nowhere near over that.

Yo, new thread

"If Eric Bruntlett is on this roster next year (he won't be) I'd be almost as mad as I was at the Michael Vick signing. And I am nowhere near over that."

I'd only feel that way if the Phils signed Milton Bradley.

Alby: That makes sense. There's a ton of 3B available both in the FA and likely non-tender pool. I'm guessing Amaro and his braintrust are going down the list one by one to decide on who's their best target. But I can't imagine they'd actually sign someone before the Feliz deadline expires.

Any thoughts on going after CLE Andy Marte (26) or SDP Kouzmanoff (28)? Marte would be cheaper but needs work offensively, but Manuel can help him with that. Both are younger than Feliz and have potential offensively. Kouz is way better defensively than Marte (and at least as good as Feliz) although Marte was known to be a slick fielding prospect once.

I don't know what it would take for either, but I'd imagine SD would be looking for some young starting pitching.

Maybe Vick can play third.

He's only 6 feet tall, however.

In regards to the salary...

ESPN reports the Phils salary at approx 110,000,000.

I believe someone said we need to assume about 10-15 mil in increases to players salary. Well, Myers no longer on the payroll helps with that amount, approx 12 mil I believe. I'm not sure how to account for Lee's salary since I dont know if or how much of his money was counted into 2009's payroll.

If the Phils can spend up to 140 mil, I believe we should have a decent amount of money to get some decent talent at 3b and BP, No?

I disagree with the anti-Feliz rhetoric. The Phillies don't really need another great hitter in the lineup. They can swap offense for defense and Feliz gives us that by the boatload. I watched Figgins a lot in the playoffs and he covers nowhere near the ground that Feliz does. Take a poll of the Phillies pitchers and I bet everyone would tell you to pay the $5 million to keep Pedro at the hot corner.

adrian beltre's obp for the last five years:

.303
.328
.319
.327
.304

uh no thanks. it seems to me that a lesson to take from this world series is we need more players who can work counts, take pitches, get on base, a la johnny damon. this guy is better than feliz, but still not the answer, IMO.

I know sometimes we get hung up on road/home splits when the Rockies players are rumored to coming here but let's not overllok something.

Whether we like to admit it or not, CBP is friendly to hitters. It's not necessarily a bandbox, but it can play like one and it is deep into the alleys with some funky wall configuration in left-center. CBP is not a big hitters place like Coors Field, but it is not that far off.

Atkins would play half his games in that stadium and if he can give you 90% of his Coors splits he'd be a huge upgrade offensively over Feliz.

Also, he would get pitches to hit in our order as we would be legitimately 7 hitters deep with Carlos capable of putting together some hot streaks.

Wouldn't mind Atkins at all in our colors.

Atkins also is Utleys buddy - I'm sure in a free agent signing it would help Phils

Chaps your ass, Jason? Thanks for the visual.

You absolutely need Feliz (or someone similar) for his defense with this lineup. I'd keep him for one more year based on what's out there and hope for more talent in the 2011 free agent pool. There should be a list of prospective free agents out there.

I'm also not sure where to point the finger, but I do know which one to point...

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