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Friday, October 16, 2009

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Cole Hamels = Bret Myers = Tommy Greene

Philadelphia starters who will never live up to their "ace" potential.

Combine that with his crybaby attitude (Waah, our games are too early. Waah, my second baseman made an error) and he's simply not worth the money he will command in free agency.

I'll gladly cheer him on as long as he wears red pinstripes, but when the time comes to spend money, I'd sooner see that money spent to lock up Cliff Lee or to sign a starter with the mental toughness and work ethic to be a team leader instead of retaining the team princess.

Cole didn't have his A stuff last night, but he was facing the best OBP team in the NL last night, and I won't worry about him right now. He's not the first to give up a HR to Manny, and he won't be the last.

Tommy Glavin got by his entire career with only 2 pitches, a FB and a Change. Maybe you're right about him needing a 3rd pitch, but then again, maybe you're wrong.

At the end of the day, I agree with you. We're 1-0 this season. I also think that this year, if we win the whole thing it will be more because of our offense than our pitching or defense. So far, so good.

Padilla isn't very good, but it seems like every time the Phillies face a pitcher they ought to pound, they turn around and make the guy look like Walter Johnson. And it remains to be seen how the long layoff will affect Pedro (who had looked bad in each of his 2 games before the layoff). I feel a loss coming on.

(Ok, that post was made in jest . . . although there are some snippets of truth in there)

Phillies Fan is correct: with Cole set to retire after the season, he'll be remembered as just another starter who never lived up to his potential, except when he did.

A career arc similar not only to Myers and Greene, as Phillies Fan points out, but Cliff Lee as well, who faded away after a terrible 2007 (5-8 6.29 ERA), in which he was sent to AAA and never heard from again.

By the way, Phillies fans, like Phillies Fan, are the most knowledgeable on earth, as we're always told.

Wow.

Cole Hamels will never live up to his "ace" potential.

I suppose that WS MVP trophy on his shelf is all a mirage.

Cole is a 25-year old pitcher with a career ERA+ of 122. His down year was largely expected due to the well-known Verducci effect.

Cole Hamels = Tommy Greene?

Cole's *worst* season is better than all but two of Greene's 8 seasons.

Posts like this make me wonder why some Phillies "fans" don't just slit their wrists now and save us all the trouble.

I sent a text to my Met friend(who has been a Rockie now LA fan this postseason) last night saying this.

"Joe Torre letting an young, gassed pitcher in for four batters too many...priceless."

Once Ker walked the pitcher on four pitches, I would have pulled him was my thinking.

This is the text back I got.

"Torre has always been a terrible manager, he just had a crapload of talent."

Never thought about it, but, that is a great point. Thoughts?

He's merely having a down year after throwing 263 innings in 2008. He'll bounce back in 2010 and make all the doubters look pretty stupid.


Since its a 1pm start in LA, hopefully Padilla is still drunk from last night.

****Never thought about it, but, that is a great point. Thoughts?****

Not really accurate but whatever. It takes talent as a manager to get any team to win 4 WS.

The Dodgers must be feeling quite good that Vincente Padilla is their stopper tonight. Wait...

I can see a guy who has won as much as Torre as either lousy or lucky. It just doesn't work that way.

Tommy Greene? Tommy had that great '93 season and then physically fell apart after that. It happens. He never was really able to put together another season where he said healthy enough to really be able to pitch effectively for a prolonged stretch.

Plus, Greene never had the pitch the caliber of Myers' curve or Hamels' changeup.

You can argue that Hamels' doesn't have the stuff to necessarily make the jump to be a Cy Young candidate but he has proven that he can be a legit frontline starter.

Way too premature to label Hamels' as anything. People ridiculously knocked him last season for not being to pitch in a big game largely because of 1 starts vs. Rockies in the NLDS. Then they praised him as the greatest thing since sliced bread last postseason.

Phils are going to need something a bit better out of Hamels if they are going to repeat as champs the next 2+ weeks but don' understand why people are so done on Hamels .

I think that's a little harsh, Phillies Fan. I'll grant you on last night's attitude, which greatly bothered me, too. However, I don't think he's beyond maturing both as a pitcher and a man. He's a great pitcher, could stand to improve his curveball or add another pitch to his arsenal, yes, but I think it's way too soon to say he'll never live up to potential. Besides, didn't he already do that last season? He's taken a step back this year from the pitching he showed last postseason, but he hasn't sunk into quicksand. He'll be back. And he's on record as saying he needs to learn to better control his emotions. (I hope he's apologized to Chase for that glare by now.)
He's on the right team to improve his focus and maturity, too. We have other team leaders, and Cole's not hurting the team. Good pitching's not that easy to come by and not worthing throwing away based on a season of less-than-perfect focus, frustration getting the better of him, and worse results than last year's postseason. His behavior last night was spoiled-bratty, although his frustration was understandable, but I'm not writing him off even if I was disappointed with the way he showed up his teammates.

Cole is overrated. He needs to develop a 3rd pitch so they can't sit on his fastball and change-up. His curve needs to be the center of concentration this offseason. Also, there were at bats last night when he threw nothing but fastballs or change-ups, didn't even mix it up at all. He flabbergasted me last night when he kept shaking off Chooch. Then to throw his 2 lil' hissy fits is just disgraceful. He needs to grow up some, and taking his lumps better when things aren't going his way.

About game 2- I'm more excited about today now that the Phils have a lead in the series. Win today and this series is looking real good.

MG, it's all about "what have you done for me lately". If Hamels goes out next game and pitches a 3 hit shutout, people will treat him like the second coming of JC, and I don't mean Romero.

Nepp,

I am torn on this. Part of me never really thought about it because the media has shown so much love on Torre over the years. Obviously, you have to have a crapload of talent to win 4 WS.

But, is Torre as "good" of a manager as the media has made him out to be? IDK, but watching last night's game, he seemed to let his starter die out there.

By the way, say what you want about Ryan Madson's struggles, but he was asked to get Manny Ramirez out with runners on first and third in a 2-run ball game. Sure, it was a mess he created but after already throwing 26 pitches in the inning, it was no easy task.

Madson dug deep and fired five 94-mph fastballs inside to Manny, getting a harmless ground ball to third to end the threat.

Say what you will, but my comment had less to do with his performance and more to do with his attitude. I really don't mind that his 2009 numbers were off of career norms.

He has talent, but he is a prissy princess who isn't worth the money he will command in free agency, and his attitude will prevent him from ever living up to his ace potential.

When the time comes to open the wallet, I hope that the front office spends its money elsewhere. He's not the only talented young pitcher in the game.

"make me wonder why some Phillies "fans" don't just slit their wrists now and save us all the trouble."

Wow. Disliking one player sure provokes a reaction out of you. Man crush for the pretty boy all you like, but wishing that others slit their wrist is an awfully "passionate" response.

"MG, it's all about "what have you done for me lately"."

Most people's prognostications are in effect descriptions of what happened last.

Don't pay attention to the pundits who gush over Torre. He had the highest payroll in baseball for 10 years with the Yanks, but before that he did nothing his entire career. His real genius was not getting fired by Steinbrenner all those years.

And no, Cole does not need to develop a 3rd pitch to win a Cy Young.

Torre and Cholly strike me very much as similiar type managers:

Both ex-MLB players who experienced some degree of success at the MLB level and have been around the game in different facets for a long time.

Both guys are known as being "players-managers" who generally defend their players in front of the media & fans and keep their criticism of them in public to a minimal nature.

Both guys are well-noted as being excellent communicators who players feel they can approach and talk to quite easily.

Both guys are known to be able to handle clubhouses quite well that are full of some big-name stars and potentially very difficult personality types.

Both guys managed in media markets that are brutal and endured a bunch of criticism thrown there way until they won a championship.

Both guys are noted as being somewhat suspect on their ability to handle a pitching staff and making some really puzzling decisions with their bullpens.

Both guys clearly prefer a veteran option whenever possible even if there is a younger and less experienced player who clearly might be the better option.

What I really think will happen today . . .

I think the Phillies WILL pound Padilla, but only after going through their usual routine of stinking it up for the first 4 innings. Once they do finally break out, I see Howard going deep & Rollins having a multi-hit game.

I also find myself strangely optimistic about Pedro. He'll struggle in the first, as he always does, but will go 7 innings and allow 3 runs. Madson will pitch a scoreless 8th and Lidge will follow with a sloppy, but effective, 9th. The Phillies give us a rare, stress-free victory of 7-4, to take a commanding lead back to CB Park.

Of course, I reserve the right to change my prediction if Padilla throws the first pitch for a strike.

It wasn't a bad pitch to Manny, but a bad pitch to throw, if that makes sense. Manny clearly can't hit the fastball right now, not enough bat speed, so why throw three straight change ups?

For an example, see Philles Fan.

Agree on desperately needs a third pitch. Once you throw two straight change-ups and don't get the out, your stuck in a bad spot. Throw a third straight change-up (bad) or throw a fastball. If I were a hitter, I'd be guessing fastball. That Manny was expecting the changeup seems odd, but he clearly was.

Lee needs to work with Hamels on a cutter in the offseason. That, and improve his curve. Funny thing is that his curve (movement-wise) is pretty good. He just can't locate it the way he'd like so he doesn't have enough confidence in it to throw it more regularly or in key spots.

The small minority of people who are upset with Cole for one reason or another (not living up to potential, "crybaby," complainer, etc.) really need to relax. I, too, am disappointed with Cole's year this year. But to advocate getting rid of him is beyond absurd. He may not grown into the dominant pitcher that we all envisioned at one time, but he is a solid top-of-the-rotation arm at the very least, which is fine by me.

Relax. Most importantly, the won the damn game.

I hated his attitude when he carried us to a WS victory last year...what a prima donna!


On Torre: He might not be the greatest manager on earth as the sportsmedia has made out but he's a pretty good manager who has done good work with his teams. That 96 Yankees team wasn't favored to win and were definitely thought to be cooked when they dropped the first 2 games of the WS to the Braves. He's had a ton of success and he took a gamble on Kershaw being able to get out Howard. Considering the game situation and Howard's splits against LHP and Kershaw, it was a solid gamble to take...at the time.

He got burned by showing too much confidence in his Ace. It happens.

uh...

"Most importantly, THEY won the damn game."

Philadelphia's fan reputation is truly earned to with the jumping on Cole Hamels. Wow,they win and "fans" have nothing better to than whine about the person who won them the series last year. He's having an off year, sort of like Rollins is having this year. It happens.

I can see these same whiners just chomping at the bit for some snow to fall.

Just wondering - if Cole hadn't thrown "a hissy fit" or "whined about start times," do you think there would be less criticism of his performance this season (and last night)?

In comparison, Chase threw a ball way out of Ryan's reach and went 0-4 last night. Yet there's no complaining about him. Is it because he keeps his mouth shut and his emotions off his sleeve? (Or is it because he worked a walk off Kershaw to set up Ryan's 2 RBI? Or is it the St. Utley effect?)

Does personality/behavior influences the level of criticism? Do we give nice guys some slack that we don't give to bad boys?

Oh, the hell with it. On to game 2!

Torre should have been fired at least a year sooner in NY. He did coast to some degree because of the ridiculous success the Yanks experienced in the late 90s. Wasn't all his fault but when you team has an epic collaspe and generally underachieves for several years in the playoffs, blame & accountability has to be placed somewhere.

Basic gist of when to get rid of a manager in baseball on a team that has won is when the team stops responding to him. Playing poorly and losing after a closed-door meeting, players sniping to the media about even minor things, etc.

Anyone know why Madson doesn't throw a slider? I feel it would be a deadly pitch for him considering he has a 95-97 mph fastball...

And if he does throw a slider, I apologize, b/c i dont recall ever seeing one.

"Both guys are noted as being somewhat suspect on their ability to handle a pitching staff and making some really puzzling decisions with their bullpens."

Which manager isn't noted as being somewhat suspect on their handling of pitching staff and bullpen decisions? Every manager gets second-guessed when their moves don't work out. Check out any given thread at BL on any given night. Someone picks a bullpen decision by the losing manager and opines on why he should have decided differently.

Charlie had a similar situation later in the game as Torre had with Kershaw against Howard. Charlie stuck with Madson rather than burn relievers and Madson sucked it up and got Manny out.

All managers will make the wrong moves in some of those situations - but there's no way that Torre has the level of success he had in NY if he can't handle a pitching staff or, in general, his bullpen decisions are "puzzling."

Man you guys are too hard on Cole! To compare him to Myers or Tommy is a joke. Granted, Cole's had a poor season, and mediocre post season, but he's certainly not as bad as described here.


Umm, everyone's talking about what an ace Lee is, but Lee got lit the hell up towards the end of the season. Lee has pitched lights out so far in the post season, but I'd be lying if I said I was 100% confident when he's in there. Dude got tagged in the end of August and Sept. I imagine Lee will continue to be dominant throughout the NLCS, but its Philly, its never gonna be easy and I'll continue to have anxiety that he may have one of his 7 ER games.

Cipper, Madson throws a cutter, although I think he shouldn't.

More outrageous?

Suggesting Cole Hamels=Tommy Greene

or

Suggesting perpetually depressed Phillies "fans" slit their wrists to save us all the trouble.

I think it's pretty close...

I will say this about Torre:

- The first question in the post-game commentary from a reporter asking Torre exactly about why he left Kershaw in to face Howard. Torre had a typical glib and flippant response to the reporter and quickly moved on.

Torre generally always has been willing to talk to the media and answer questions thoughtfully except when you call him on a decision he makes about the pitching staff that was suspect. Then he becomes a jerk temporarily.

Cholly to his credit doesn't take that approach.

He probably doesnt throw one because he doesn't have a good feel for it. Some guys simply can't throw certain pitches.

And he does occasionally throw sliders they just arent a very good pitch for him.

Thoughts before going back to work…

It's always easy to second guess a manager. This practice can be a lot of fun, but I think it falls way short of meaningful analysis for a couple reasons. One is that there is no way to know what would have happened if the choice in question had been made differently. Similarly, we don't as often jump in and say, "Wow. Great choice. If I had been managing I would have done something else really stupid instead." Finally, post game analysis usually focuses on the small stuff rather than the larger picture or that which cannot be easily measured. If I take a big look, I have to see that Charlie has been a terrific manager these past two years, probably even a little better than Torre.

I am also in the give Cole time school. His problems seem more emotional right now than anything else. He was pitching pretty well and working out of trouble effectively until the combination of an error and a home run broke him down. Some pitchers are already great at 25, most aren't. Another item on my list of why baseball is a great game is that it takes a long time to learn how to do it right.

Now onto a positive note.

CHOOCH! Does this guy love the post season or what? His intensity is infectious. Having Ruiz on fire in the 8-hole has to be unsettling for an opposing pitcher. Other than Feliz, who is putting together some putrid ABs, there isn't an easy out 1-8.

Love the way the Big Piece is swinging the bat. His approach seems to be great and he's making solid contact. 8 RBI in 5 games without a HR. Very nice.

Imagine if Cole had lost...

philipper - There not the same. Torre clearly had an option ready to go and that made sense to face Howard.

Cholly didn't have another RHP reliever warmed up and it was largely sink or swim with Madson at that point.

It is funny how Cholly gets universal praise now for his handling of a pitcher staff when he got buried on here in '06 and '07 and rightly so at times especially during '07.

Cole Hamels is not overrated. That's really a silly thing to say. Coming into this season people were predicting there would be a dropoff for him due to varying factors. The Verducci effect, a long season with the playoffs, the PR appearances that he made/was asked to make due to being the WS MVP.

He definitely needs to develop the curve a little more. It doesn't even really need to be a great one. It just needs to be good enough that he can flash it from time to time and keep people guessing.

I don't have a problem with the fit in the dugout. That was frustration with himself. The on-field one I have a bit of an issue with although I'll say you can't really tell if he is looking at J-Roll or Utley when he does it. It could just be exasperation like, "What else can happen here." Maturity will be born out of that, and I'm sure it was mentioned to him behind closed doors becasue that's how the team handles things.

Let's also keep in mind that as bad as Cole was at times this year- he was really snakebitten at other times. He was pitching well against Milwaukee and Washington before getting hurt. There were 6 saves blown in games he pitched. But he has not been so far in this post-season like he was last year. He'll have at least one more chance this post-season

It seems Hamels throws alot more pitches in an average game than he used to. I think it's been harder for him to out-think hitters this year regarding the mix of his two pitches and location. With htat said, last night was a bit of a microcosm of his struggles. He was generally in hte middle of the plate too much. The pitch to Loney was an example of that but, I think it was more an example of a pitcher letting the umpire's mistake on the previous pitch affect him on the next. Marsh wasn't calling the low change a strike and the previous pitch to Loney was a notable failure on the ump's part. As for the Ramirez at bat, it was inexplicable. He threw 3 change ups when Ramirez hadn't shown an ability to hit hte fastball. The pitch itself wasn't bad, in a vacuum, but, Manny was not fooled in the least. Too comfortable.

Cole had a VORP of 24 this year, which was 3rd on the team. Not bad for an off year.

Chooch has been impressive but it is the Big Man who is having the most impressive postseason so far including a couple of GW RBI and some real quality ABs against LHP.

And, FWIW, the change is his best pitch, which may be why he threw it to the Dodger's best hitter. The Dodger's best hitter hit it out of the park even though it looked to be out of the strike zone. That's what great hitter do, I suppose.

Stat of the postseason so far for the Phils:

26 BBs in just 5 games. Patience up and down the lineup for the most part except JRoll (0 BBs) and Feliz (2 BBs).

What I truly come to this site for is to read people that yell at their tv's over a baseball game complaining about a pitcher showing frustration on the mound actually pitching the game.

I doubt anyone would be whining about his season if he went 17-11 instead of 10-11...that's the difference between having a legit closer and not having one in the regular season. A 4.32 ERA is better than Beckett had after his WS winning season and better than Verlander did after his WS losing appearance (Two of the most recent WS hangover effect pitchers).

He's 25 and already a WS MVP...lay off him.

"Phillies Fan" gets my nomination for the Helmet of the Day award.

The pitch selection to Manny on that AB where he hit the HR was foolish. I would bet you top dollar that the Phils' scouting report said "high gas" to Manny last night and the Phils largely had guys on the mound when Manny was up (Hamels, Park, Madson) who are capable of dialing it up at least in the low 90s when they throw a 4-seemer up.

Hamels has had trouble locating his fastball/change all year. That's pretty much his only problem, an extra pitch can't hurt, but location is really what he needs to fix.

And bad luck.

It would be interesting to see "Pre-ASB" Hamels really broken down vs. "Post-ASB" because Hamels' numbers "Post-ASB" were nearly as good as last year.

That and the ridiculous day/night splits. Hamels' has a run differential of over 1.50 runs in his day/night stars and he SUCKED this year during the day with an ERA over 5.50. Including the playoff start last week, the Phils went 1-9 in his 10 day starts and are now well below .500 when he starts during the day in his career.

"Just wondering - if Cole hadn't thrown "a hissy fit" or "whined about start times," do you think there would be less criticism of his performance this season (and last night)?

In comparison, Chase threw a ball way out of Ryan's reach and went 0-4 last night. Yet there's no complaining about him. Is it because he keeps his mouth shut and his emotions off his sleeve?"


EXACTLY.

Chase plays the game the right way. Chase plays the game like a man.

Lidge plays the game the right way. Lidge plays the game like a man.

While I may not be thrilled with 2009 Lidge, I respect him and I want to see him continue his career in a Phillies uniform.

Cole is like having an employee that does an excellent job, but he (or she) is such a little sh*t that you can't stand the sight of them.

Win or lose, I do not respect Cole Hamels. Thanks for the dominant 2008 post season, Cole. Thanks for the win last night. I still don't like you. Until he grows up and stops acting like a six year old girl when things go his way, he will never earn my respect regardless of performance.

C'mon, if Cole never pitched another game for the Phils, he absolutely took over in the postseason last year and won the World Series MVP. That fact alone means he's already "lived up to his potential."

Credit the FO for recognizing that they weren't going to be able to depend on him for that kind of performance again this year, and hope that Cole pulls it together for his remaining 09 starts by using a bit more guile and a bit less immaturity.

In any case, a more rested Cole and a full year of Lee mean that this team is going to be really exciting to watch next season too!

typo: Until he grows up and stops acting like a six year old girl when things DON'T go his way, he will never earn my respect regardless of performance.

Skimming through this new thread to catch up two things stick out to me. #1 - Hamels is getting pounded when Madson pitched just as bad - maybe even worse. Just as Hamels is supposed to an ace pitcher, isn't Madson supposed to be our best pitcher in the pen? After last night and his last outing in Colorado the question has to be asked. Who do you trust more right now, Madson or Lidge?

#2 - We won the damn game! Can you believe it, we won! The last 3 games have felt like losses even though we won! A win today would be huge. Pedro is a gamble, but if it pays off...

Over exaggerate much?

If Hamels could ever figure out whatever the hell plagues him during his days stars, he would be a legit Cy Young candidate.

Most starters have worse numbers during the day but Hamels' has splits that you almost won't see in any starter. Especially one the caliber of Hamels.

Day ERA - 4.66 ERA, BAA .279
Night ERA - 3.27 ERA, BAA .228

Basically during the day, Hamels is a back-end rotation guy who gets hit pretty hard. At night, he turns into your No. 1 pitcher. It crazy and his splits are like this since he has come up.

The bottom line on Hamels is I want him on my team. But his reaction to Utley's error was horsebleep. That's not the kind of team this is.

Wonder why Phillies fans get the rep they have? Exhibit A-"Phillies Fan"

Obvious Troll is obvious.

I thought that reputation had to do with Phillies fans who boo their own players when they perform poorly.

I just told you that my dislike of him is about his attitude and not his performance.

Is this not allowed? Is this an exclusivity of Philly fans? Does this have anything to do with the "rep" of which you speak?

Defend your statement.

Redundant internet cliche is redundant.

I think that the curve isn't necessarily the best option as Cole's "other" pitch. A cutter would seemingly be a great addition, but he's so over the top with his delivery that I wonder if he could really even throw one. He seemed to do great with just two pitches all of last year, and I hestitate to attribute that simply to unfamiliarity. Clearly, he's got to return to that steady as a rock mentality and loose the diva bullsht. I've also noticed that he's throwing way harder than he needs to early in the count with his fastball, hitting 95 at times. He seems to be much more effective when he's sitting 89-91 with his fastball and occasionally bumping it up to 94 with two strikes. He used to get a ton of strike outs that way on his fastball. Pitching used to seem so effortless from him. I'd say he needs to chat with Moyer to regain his cool, but Moyer's little hissy fit upon being demoted seems to damper that notion. Bottom line, Hamels needs to humble himself...badly. Perhaps winning another title with him ineffective will serve to that end. One of the philly writers had some great line on him today, something like, "Hamels has great stuff, but right now he doesn't have the stuff of greatness."

Incidentally, I think that the "rep" is nonsense.

We've forgiven a shortstop that calls his fans "front runners."

We've forgiven an injury prone starter who beat his wife and failed to impress on the mound.

We've forgiven a quarterback that kills dogs for fun and profit.

Now, we're forgiving a princess who stares down the best second baseman in the game and promptly gives up a three run homer.

How charitable do Philadelphia fans have to be before the booing Santa nonsense "rep" (kept alive by people like Old Phan) is no longer repeated?

I find it odd that people are attributing the botched double play to Utley's bad throw. Even a good throw wouldn't have gotten him. The key mistake in the play was Rollins being slow on the toss. The error may have gone to Utley, but the real error on the play, the one that was the difference between Cole being a hero last night and being excoriated on here, was Jimmy's.

That said, Cole should not have shown up his guys. Goes without saying, but it's true. You don't do that, and I'm sure someone in the clubhouse will speak to him about that.

The HR to Manny was a combo of bad pitch-calling and just great hitting. 4 straight changeups was questionable, but let's be real: Manny hit a pitch out of the park that most hitters would barely put in play. It wasn't a changeup that hung up; it was one that was going to hit the dirt. That's why Manny is Manny.

MG: I've said this before about Hamels but I think the biggest thing that hurts him is he is a creature of habit. He probably has a routine (like many pitchers do) on the day of a start. When day games come up that routine gets thrown out of whack and it gets him off his game.

I was thinking last night- I wonder of all the "aces" in the league, what are their day/night splits. I wonder if there is some kind of pattern that emerges.

You call Cole Hamels a "princess" and I'm the one keeping the "rep" alive?

TTI - Kind of wondered the same thing and if there is the consistency year after year too. If there is, does it only affect certain types of pitchers or really just unique to certain pitchers regardless of their pitching arsenal.

Obvious piece for JW's annual piece.

So according to our HotD, wife beating and animal cruelty are morally equivalent to giving your middle infielders a dirty look.

To coin a phrase: Interesting.

If he acts like a princess, I'm going to call him a princess.

When he's ready to man up and stop crying and embarrassing his teammates, I'll give him a fresh start.

A public apology to Chase wouldn't hurt.

If you can forgive Cole without a comment, I'm sure that you'll forgive me for not blindly cheering for prissy behavior. I wouldn't put up with that from my son let alone a guy making millions of dollars to live his dream.

Doohickey: Who said that they were "morally equivalent"? The commonality of that post was forgiveness, not the severity of what was being forgiven, and the context was to demonstrate that Philly fans do not live up to the reputation of being cruel and unforgiving.

Are you trying to invent your own argument for a reason, or are you just jumping on a bandwagon any way you can?

I know its a cliche criticism, but did anyone notice how many empty seats there were in Dodger Stadium by the 8th and 9th innings last night. That game started at 5pm there so there's just no excuse for that. I stayed up til 6 am last night (Tel Aviv time) watching this game, Dodger's fans are just pathetic. Yeah, we've got people ready to jump off a bridge when one thing goes wrong, but I'll take that kind of passion every day over those fair-whether spectators (not fans). The Dodgers don't have a crowd, they've got an audience.

I don't understand what's going on here today. For the love of Pete, we took Game 1 of the NLCS on the road and we're fighting about whether it is ok to forgive Cole Hamels for giving a dirty look to Utley?

Ridiculous.

Cole is a princess. His attitude last night was inexcusable. To a certain extent, it's bad to be hard on your players, but this is not an example of this. I thought the booing of Adam Eaton last year during the parade was excessive. It wasn't like he wanted to pitch like crap. In Cole's case, I don't blame him for the season he's had. However, throwing temper tantrums on the mound is asking for failure. And this isn't a new thing with Cole either. All his complaining about not having a chiropractor a couple of years ago was the same. He needs to grow up. Nobody else on the team does that.

Don't feed the trolls.

A new poster mysteriously appears on this day to equate Cole Hamels to Tommy Greene.

I report, you decide.

MG & TTI collaborating on a piece for Jason's annual collection?

I don't think the forces of Beerleaguer could withstand that.

But seriously- I'll be out of work at the end of the year and doing some grad work for a teaching certification so I totally have the time to do something like that.

Whoops, this is not an example of that? Poorly worded, but you get what I mean.

Manny really isnt Manny anymore; fastballs beat him, not 3 changeups in a row where he can connect. someone said it: not a bad pitch, but a bad pitch selection at that time. Cole needed to put the error behind him and move on like a mature player. problem is, he is not a mature player. I agree with som of phillies fan's post - hamels is such a little b1tch at times, grow the eff up and put the team on your back and get a tough out.

Thank God this is a 4:00 game. A "game thread" should be appearing soon and will hopefully end this nonsense.

CJ: I think you're right.

Phillies Fan: I'm with you on this. Hamels has always rubbed me the wrong way, but this year he's been insufferable. Last night's histrionics was icing on the cake.

Havings said that, I can separate personality from credentials. Hamels is young and capable of dominance, and as such remains one of the most valuable commodities on this team. I'm not wishing him away just yet. He is young, and I believe there is a good chance he will mature both his game and his persona. For now, however, I am considerably less than impressed with the way he handles himself.

MG: I agree with the Torre/Manuel comparison. These guys are considered successful managers not for their in-game tactics but for their ability to stabilize a clubhouse and have everyone on the same page. In the end, that is the skill for which managers are judged. Anyone who doesn't believe it can observe Torre on the bench and Larry Bowa in the coach's box.

CJ, you are correct.

TTI - I'm game. I will email JW about it. Looking at the day/night struck me as very interesting because of Hamels and also the "as JRoll goes so does the Phils" argument about him scoring out of the leadoff spot including some of the obvious (Phils overall record vs other teams) but looking at the more specific times he does score and the real impact.

Murgatroid: The Eaton situation is an example of hypocrisy. I'm sure that the same people who are getting on my case were the very same people who will gladly throw Bruntlett or Eaton under the bus (which, incidentally, is exactly the kind of behavior that reinforces "the rep").

If Cole pitched for the Mets and pulled this Princess & The Pea routine, Phillies fans would ride him mercilessly. I don't wear blinders just because he pitches for my team. I respect people who play the game the right way. I'll cheer for Cole to succeed, but as long as this sort of behavior continues, I will not respect him. For the amount of money he will command in free agency, we could have our pick of top MLB pitchers, and it is my hope that this money is spent elsewhere when the time comes.

Helmet of the Day? To protect a numb skull?

Happy for the win. But I cant help notice Cole's head has grown a few sizes. What happend to the humble guy we saw last year?

Maybe we need Moyer to come in and sit with Cole during his games.

I dont like crybaby players. I think if Mets, Dodger, Red Sox players when I think of crybabies. This team is a class act team. I hope they deal with him in the offseason. Maybe he needs some humbling? Or a JRoll, Utley, Howard blanket party.

Completely agree about the 3rd pitch. He kept throwing Manny the same pitches.. low change, inside fastball. I called 3 pitches in row in Manny's AB previous to the HR.. if I can do that, so can Manny.

Side note: I know this isn't the most unique observation, but wow, Russell Martin is a really poor catcher. He did a bad job framing some of Kershaw's pitches, and then again did a bad job blocking those wild pitches. Makes me glad we've got Chooch.

I wonder what people would be posting about Cole if the Phils lost.

I know it's probably sacrilege to say this, but Utley deserves some crap this A.M. too. Cole is getting dumped on, but if Utley had turned that relatively routine double play Hamel's night out looks a lot better... even in the eyes of WIP and 950.

You've obviously ignored the fact that in all the criticism of Cole Hamels, no one has brought up his performance. Not Mitch Williams. Not the Comcast Post Game show. Not the MLB Network. Not any poster on this board.

If he lost, the only difference might be that people such as yourself would be less forgiving of his attitude.

And another thing... turn off ESPN, guys. Hamels is getting bit by his day game rant and labeled a "cry baby," but be real - YOU AGREED WITH HIM! The WFC's should be playing in primetime.

Anyway, show me another example of Hamels being a "cry baby." His reaction after Chase's error was fine. I'm sure you all had a similar reaction when watching on your sofa.

Mamels quote on the Zo Zone:
"It's the process I've had to go through all year - learning how to deal with my emotions and learning to control them and forgetting about what just happened."

Cole recognizes that he needs to stay under control and hasn't mastered that yet.
Like all our players (and all of us) he has flaws, He's 25 years old and a damn good pitcher- I'm glad he's on our side.

I'd like to put a question to the audience. Which, in fact, is more indicative of a "princess"-like, whiny personality (not to say deeply irrational)?

1) Reacting irritably and injudiciously to a high-stakes events over which one partly has personal control; or

2) Throwing a hissy fit on a blog, 1000 miles away, repeatedly imputing all manner of terribleness to an utter stranger, who, in a ten second period, acted as described in scenario 1).

In respect to prissiness, it's not clear that 1) is worse than 2).

Thoughts?

Did we win or lose yesterday? There is more negativity here than on the Dodgerblues.com forum.

I'm not sure why, but even more annoying, to me, than the fan who whines about players' poor comportment is the fan who whines about fans whining about players' poor comportment. We don't have some sort of obligation as fans to like these guys or always approve of their behavior. Or to think our closer is back because he's closed out three straight games, one of which was a two-out save, another of which was a shaky two-walk performance.

Unless Cole Hamels personally appears at each Beerleaguer poster's house along with Chase Utley, and allows Utley to beat him with a bamboo cane while apologizing for giving Chase a dirty look, I think he should be DFA'd and then released. In the interim, he should not start game 5...there simply isn't enough time to properly atone for what he has done. Let Bruntlett pitch game 5; his beard cuts down on glare and thus prevents DITHLs during both day and night games.

You people have got to be kidding me. Jimmy and Chase botched a routine double play and (gasp!) Cole gave them a WTF WAS THAT CRAP? look. Who cares? WE WON THE GAME. Raul Ibanez hit a 3-run homer off of the supposedly world-beating lefty killer Sherrill (ZERO HRs to leftys this year before Raul torched him), who many on this board were certain would ice our mid-order lefties and, thus, it was a huge mistake that Ruben didn't try to pick him up. Madson made 4 great pitches to Manny in a huge spot. Potential rookie of the year JA Happ got out of a bases-loaded jam while the Phils were nursing a 1-run lead. Ryan Howard continued his torrid September/October, lefty pitching be damned. Brad Lidge continued his playoff comeback with another save, letting in zero runs.

Yet, the focus of this thread is not on any of these things, but instead whether a 25-year-old pitcher (who is the defending NLCS and WS MVP) should be cast aside because of an immature reaction to what everyone agrees was an awful play by two usually sure defenders.

Yes, Tray, as fan, you can be as stupid as you like.

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