Part of

« Oh daddy! Pedro to pitch Game 2 in the Bronx | Main | ... and everything else is gravy »

Tuesday, October 27, 2009


C'mon Jason, you can do better than that.

Show some respect. That's a TERRIBLE picture of the manager of the WFC.

Cholly should take his team to The Stadium this afternoon and put a tape measure to home plate and the baselines.

Interesting take, J.. subtle

F 'em.

Bring it home, phils. If New York and the AP had any journalistic integrity, they would talk baseball.

It's Creed vs. Balboa all over again. Let's do this.

I'm just glad to see that Cole made the trip.

Charlie breaking out the tape measure: "see, it's still 60' 6" to home plate . . . but it's only 314' to the right field corner!" Howard, Utley, Ibanez start salivating.

What is this story about? Clothing styles?

Guess our team spends less time getting dressed up to commit adultery and shoot steroids. It's funny how much free time one can have to get all dressed up when their career is fraudulent.

JW, What is going on? Charlie looks half asleep still from the train ride to the Bronx.

I am not sure I understand you correctly, what did you expect when they arrived in the opposing city? I am sure there won't be much going on when the Yankee's arrive on Friday. By the way, did you see all the fan fare @ 30th Stret Station when they left?

That NY Post article was some piece of trash. I can't believe an actual paper would produce something like that and I'm not really sure what they are aiming for with it--more violence from the Philly faithful?

Blogs aren't killing the newspapers; "journalists" are doing just find on their own.

This comes off like a fanbase that is bitter from being beaten too often instead of a fanbase that's supposedly "elitist" and the "best fans in the world".

This kind of stuff makes my blood boil, because it seems to be the last bastion of acceptable people-bashing and stereotyping that exists in this world.

Can someone please explain this post to MVP? Thx.

Come on people... this is a great post from Jason. Although you have to understand the subtlety of it. Jason is clearly playing off the belief by so many that the Phils are a team about to be overwhelmed by the situation. We know that's not true. This isn't about what the Phils are wearing. Well done, J.

From last thread:

I listed a number of reasons Pedro is starting Game 2 in stead of Hamels. The lefty-after-lefty split was just one and I don't think it's a big consideration.

This one is simple. Manuel is putting his pitchers in the positions he believes they have the best chance of succeeding. Period. Why is that so difficult to grasp?

HH: It may be trash, but I gaurentee it is generating "hits". Everytime we click tor ead the story or buy the paper, theya re accomplishing their overall goal.

I mean really, did I need to read that article in order to know the New Yorkers make fun of Rocky, calling the hoagie a "hoagie" instead of hero, the fact that we are known for cheesesteaks or to tell us our city is "boring". I mean really, what is new in that article? But the fact that we read it, is all they want.

New York is actually one of the few places where newspapers are even relevant anymore. The New York Post flys off the shelves each morning for various reasons including gossip and sports coverage.

In Philadelphia the newspapers are dying because we have bozo writers like "Gonzo" trying to make a column in blog format. Also, Marcus Hayes and Fitzpatrick aren't much better in the expanded list that I haven't named.

Pedro is just some insurance piece in case another pitcher goes down. Now that we have Lee, we won't need him.

Sorry, I thought it was late July again.

CJ: I really have to laugh at your posts. You really are Pollyanna.

Hope you're right, though.

Appears to have gone over his head... If only he were taller.

Deutsche phan: Apparently it has gone over my head. Is he comparing this years Phillies to the Hoosier's" team? If so, why? They don't have the same storyline. Is he saying the Phillies dressing "less flashy" means they are a more hard-nosed team? Exactly, what is the overall purpose of this particular thread?

I saw various video of them leaving and I assure you Hamels wasn't the only one in a tailored suit. Myers, Pedro, Howard and all the guys were with their significant others dressed well. Even J-Roll prefered the more stylish attire, opting for the button down and suit coat with designer jeans and black shoes.

So again, painting this team to be dressed like a underdog, hard working "Joe" just isn't accurate.

clout: So you don't believe Manuel is putting players in what he thinks is the best position to succeed?


mvptommyd: It's because the NY Post and others ragged on the way the Phillies were dressed when they arrived in NYC--that's why.

CJ: I agree with your take on why it makes sense having Hamels pitch game 3.
clout: I agree with your take on not having Lee pitch on 3 days rest. He's been dominant on 4, so I'd rather set up one dominant start from Lee than take the chance of throwing him off. And worst case he'll be available for a couple innings in game 7.

Finally, I find it interesting how quick people are to jump on Hamels. He hasn't carried himself perfectly in the playoffs and has performed poorly, but geez, he is still the guy who pitched 260 innings last year in helping us break a long title drought, and deserves respect for that. As for him sulking about being "demoted", all the quotes I've seen from him in the playoffs have been about how he recognizes he hasn't performed and that makes the decisions for Charlie different this year.

mvptommyd: NO!

The joke is that so many in the media are portraying the Phils as something akin to the Hoosiers.

We know who this team is. Jason obviously knows who this team is. I just think this kind of a post is waaaaay too subtle for you to get. Sorry.

HH: Where was that article?

clout, unless I missed it, you still didn't answer CJ's question that was posed to you on the last thread:

"clout: How relevant is Pedro's career playoff numbers vs. the Yankees? The only two Yankees still on the team from those matchups are Jeter and Posada. I'd think that Pedro's career numbers against the current players on the Yankees is significantly more relevant, and he's pitched pretty well against them."

CJ: No, I think Manuel is doing exactly that, as he sees it. It's just that your Pollyanna, cheerleader posts are hilarious. That's my only point.

Carry on.

"The joke is that so many in the media are portraying the Phils as something akin to the Hoosiers."

Where? I haven't read OR heard that reference. And I read the New York papers and listen to the FAN.

Beerleaguer : The Big Lebowski :: mvptommy : Donnie

mvptommy: Go to your nearest dictionary and look up the word "satire."

Seriously, Can I read where this Phillies team has been compared to the "Hoosier" team.

clout: So you think I'm "supporting" this move only because Charlie made it?


I called for this move before Charlie made it because I also think it puts the Phils in the best position to win. Sorry if wanting the Phils to win makes me a Pollyanna.

mvptommyd: Can you be any more dense?

They weren't actually compared specifically to the Hoosiers. Jason chose that imagery to make a point.

Let it go, man. Let it go!

mvptommyd: Here's one article to support the theory that the Phillies won't put up much of a fight

But pretty much everything I've read in the NY papers is saying that the Phils are David to NYY's Goliath here. The nat'l papers see the teams as much more even.

CJ: What point! That is all I am asking for, an explanation of how THIS Phillies team is compared to the Hoosiers. Is this too hard to ask?

I mean it is eithier explain that question or argue with each other over Pedro starting Game 2. When it is already set in stone and for various reasons mentioned above a good move.

To clarify, not saying literally that the Phils are David to the Yanks' Goliath, but suggesting through the "we're so loaded and the Phils are crap outside of Howard and Lee" sh**.

mvptommyd: Frankly, it's not worth the time it will take to explain it to you. If you can't get it, you won't get it. If you haven't noticed how the Phils are being portrayed in comparison to the Yankees, then there's little I can do for you. This post was brilliant.

HH: Thank You. Your right the national media has this thing much more even. As does Mike Francesa on the FAN,most of the Yankee's announcers and beat writers. That is why I was confused with the whole "Hoosier" theme. But ok, I guess if Davidoff says it, then it must warrent some attention, Right?

BTW, there are just as many Phillies fans who are being disrespectful of the Yankees' talents when they say "Phils in 5, maybe sweep." I mean, seriously?

If there's a sweep, it ain't gonna be by Philly. The longer this series goes, the better the prospects of the Phils winning the whole thing (if you ask me). I'm praying to take Game One and go .500 from there!

It's simple really. To most New Yorkers, anything NYC is awesome, the best, etc. and anything not NYC is crap. It's a form of provincialism that feeds the rest of the (flyover) country to hating NYC.

awh: In predicting a single game, numbers are irrelevant. That includes both Pedro's post-season numbers and his career numbers against individual Yankees.

However, that doesn't mean you can't kick 'em around, looking for an edge.

awh - agreed, I dont think pedro's playoff numbers against the yankees of '03 and '04 have that much significance but a-rod and matsui were also on the 04 yanks

clout, even using your criteria - Pedro's postseason performance against the Yankees (I take from this quote: "Pedro has been destroyed by the Yankees in post-season" that THAT is what your criteria are) - has been the following:

7.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 12 K, 2 BB (BSox won gm 13-1)

7.0 IP, 6 H, 4 R, 6 K, 1 BB (BSox lost gm 3-4)
7.1 IP, 10 H, 5 R, 8 K, 1 BB (BSox lost gm 4-5)

6.0 IP, 4 H, 3 R, 7 K, 4 BB (BSox lost gm 1-3)
6.0 IP, 7 H, 4 R, 6 K, 5 BB (BSox won gm 5-4)

and one relief appearance in a blowout:

1.0 IP, 3 H, 2 R, 1 K, 0 BB, (Bsox won game 10-3)

So, the above record against the Yankees is what you define as "destroyed".

The Red Sox were 3-3 in his appearances, 2-3 in his starts, one of those losses when he gave up only 3 R.

With the exception of Game 7 of the ALCS when Little left him in a 5.2 game when he appeared to be tiring, he hasn't given up more than 4 runs in any postseason start against the Yankees.

Of course all of those appearances were at least 5 years ago before he had surgery, so I'm not sure they have any relevance at all - nevermind the fact that CJ pointed out (which you ignored), that the Yankees roster has turned over considerably since then.

CJ: Supporting Charlie's move doesn't make you Pollyanna. Painting a rosy picture of every single Phillies-related thing in your posts makes you Pollyanna.

Don't sweat it, I hope you're right.


Big Lebowski analogy = greatness.

clout, just curious. I know pollyanna means to paint a rosy picture on every scenario, with connotations to "homerism". What's the word for never taking risks, but making fun of those who do?

I guess I'm just suggesting that you go a little easier on posters who are willing to make posts/predictions that may be wrong (as long as they are willing to own up to them later), realizing that it appears as if you do not have the courage to do so, out of fear that you could be perceived as "Wrong".

How badass does Chopper look though?

awh: So an ERA over 6.00 doesn't bother you?

Tray: Agreed. CHOP looked like the man.

Chopper, and I don't know what the beef is with Cholly's photo. In tweed we trust.

SmokyJoe: Repeating a lie doesn't make it true. I've made dozens of predictions on this blog over the years although never about specific games. get a clue for a change.

MVP, most Phillies fans (here especially) want to think that the NY media is portraying this series as a David vs. Goliath thing. Yes, some articles have made that reference, but most national writers have picked Yanks in 7. In other words, its not really David vs. Goliath.

Most knowledgable baseball guys have said that this series pits the two best teams in baseball. Other than a few silly fans, I haven't seen anyone underplay the Phillies.

clout: It's not being a Pollyanna if you're right :-)

Predictions I've made:
2008: 92 wins
2009: 93 wins
2009 NLDS: Win in 4 games
2009 NLCS: Win in 5 games
2009 WS: Win in 5 games

And, by the way, not that this point is worth much discussion, but I don't regularly paint rosy pictures.

I present my opinions on what I think is best for this team. Sometimes Charlie agrees, sometimes he doesn't. I guess it's easy to overlook those times I've said I would have acted differently.

Besides, it's hard *not* to see a rosy picture in the last two Phillies seasons!!

And that's the last I'll say on this topic.

"What's the word for never taking risks, but making fun of those who do?"

SmokyJoe, I believe the word is "douchasaurus rex"

A few observations, regarding the yahoo sportswriter giving the Phils the edge (awh's post above):

It seems to me that most analysts give more weight to offensive production than defensive abilities. I'm wondering about this. Is the number of hits a player gets more valuable than his catches or his throwing arm? I wonder if any of you have thought about this. I guess that, quite simply, a player has the chance to make the difference with his bat 4x/game, whereas most of his defensive plays will be routine, maybe 1-2 spectacular plays/game.

This writer gave the edge on the bench to the Yankees. Now, we all know the Phillies' bench is a weakness this year. I just think it's sad that, as a NL team who presumably needs to go to the bench more often, we have a weaker bench than an AL team, even one that had the best record in baseball.

clout, in the context of the individual STARTS I posted above, no.

If you subtract the blowout relief appearance, his ERA in his postseason starts is 4.32.

That's based on 33.1 IP and 16 R. WITH the relieve appearance his ERA balloons to 4.75.

Pray tell, using the number above, how did you calculate an ERA over 6.00?

That should say:

"If you subtract the blowout relief appearance, his ERA in his postseason starts AGAINT THE YANKEES is 4.32."

And also:

"using the numberS above"

GBrett: The bench definitely needs to be an area of priority this off-season. I don't think I'm going out on any limbs by saying that the Phils need to overhaul at least 3/5 of their normal bench (Bako, Stairs & Cairo/Bruntlett). It may be 4/5 if they conclude that Greg Dobbs' 2009 season was the beginning of the end, as opposed to just a one-year anomaly (personally, I think it was a one-year anomaly, but I'm not the one making the decisions).

But that's next year. For now, the good news is that the DH makes the bench unimportant. While the Yankees certainly have a better bench than we do, it won't matter in the games played in Yankee Stadium.

Looking more closely at the picture, Charlie's clearly having a DITHL.

Actually clout, if the word being used is "concern", then everything about this upcoming series "concerns" me.

I am concerned that Cliff Lee will somehow get hit.

I am concerned that the Phillies offense will show up in 3 games against CC Sabbathia.

I am concerned about Cole Hamels.

I am concerned about the Phillies' bullpen.

I am concerned about Cliff Lee potentially pitching on 3 days rest.

I am concerned about pitching to A-Roid and the rest of the Yankees lineup, especially Tex.

I am concerned about Howie, Jason, Chase, Jimmy, Vic, and the Killer Zzzzzs continuing to hit.

I am concerned about the efficacy of the bench.

I am concerned that the AJ Burnett with command might show up (I'm not concerned if the one without it makes an appearance or two).

I am "concerned" about a lot more things regarding this series, because until the last out is recorded with a Phillies victory in the series I am ALWAYS "concerned".

But, if you ask me whether pitching HOF candidate Pedro Martinez in NY is at the top of my list - in the context of the numbers I posted above, in the context of his postseason experience, in the context of his being well rested after a great start against the Dodgers - it's one of the things I'm least concerned about.

What's with the NY Post's Front Page Photo of Vic wearing a dress? These New Yorkers are deranged, believing that anything they do or say is perfectly acceptable. They now need to be defeated in four straight games. Merely losing the World Series would be too good for the spoiled Yankees and their equally spoiled fans.

I think JW was right on (and CJ).

The Phillies are laying low. Let the media underestimate them. Let them make fun of them. "Let 'em bite."

I'm pretty sure none of the Phillies will be reading the NY Post this week.

Excellent post.

Printing the pic of Vic wearing a dress: I haven't experienced wit like that since I was in junior high school.

Remember that idiot reporter from LA whining about the Phanatic smashing a Dodgers batting helmet? He'd probably burst an aneurysm if the Post ran a pic of Manny wearing a dress.

It had been several weeks since clout insulted me (not my post, but me personally). I was starting to feel irrelevant. Thanks clout, I feel much better now.

Kutztown: At least Manny was pregnant, wearing a dress would make sense.

Previous post says BAP has no confidence in any of our starters. That's pretty surprising, I thought he was a pretty positive and confident guy for the most part. If he's concerned, I'm concerned.

The Yankees have a better bench that we do? Their ALCS bench was 2 crappy catchers (Cervelli and Molina) and two speed guys (Gardner and Guzman). Who the heck do you bring off that bench down one in the 9th?

Current NWS forecast for NYC:

Wednesday: Rain. High near 54. East wind around 10 mph. Chance of precipitation is 100%. New rainfall amounts between a quarter and half of an inch possible.

Wednesday Night: A chance of showers, mainly before 10pm. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 46. Northeast wind between 10 and 15 mph. Chance of precipitation is 30%.

If it doesn't get postponed, we are looking at a long night and bloodshot eyes at work the next day.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Jerry Hairston Jr. on the Yanks bench. Oooooh, look out.

loctastic - I'd forgotten about Manny's need for fertility drugs. Explains why he's always wearing maternity uniforms.

Think the CBP crowd will use the "You use steroids" chant on A-roid? I'd prefer fresh material, but it's hard not to go with what works.

"bloodshot eyes at work"

like THAT is anything new.

I still like 'EMP-TY SEATS! EMP-TY SEATS!' as a chant vs Yankees.

The steroids chant can also be used for Pettite. All, game, long.

The steroids chant is kind of a catch-all, isn't it?

For some reason, Pettite doesn't annoy me. I'll have to work on that.

I really, REALLY want a rain out on Wed night to force the Skankees to either use a 4th pitcher or pitch their 3 on even shorter rest. Time for a rain dance.

Spitz: Yeah, looking back at the article again, I'm not sure why the writer gave the Yankees' bench the edge. He said Dobbs and Stairs can be dangerous, called the bench as a whole "less than dazzling" (true, true), but didn't really have any glowing comments about the Yankees bench either. Called Hairston versatile, and mentioned that Hinske homered off the Phils last year as well as made the last out.

Another indication that offense carries more weight than defense: He gave the Yankees the edge at catcher, even while writing that Posada is a "question mark" behind the plate.

In spite of the fact that I'm dwelling on this, I don't believe it really matters. It is interesting to me to read how analysts break down the teams. Should be a good series....

A rain out would be great. BUT I CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER! One extra day might kill me.

I'm with Clout. Over the past few months, particularly, CJ has moved into complete cheerleader realm, refusing to look at the Phillies in anything but the most positive light. Like Eskin covering the Eagles.

Now, considering how well the Phils have done, that's not totally unwarranted. They've been awesome, and there's no reason to not be generally positive. I mean, they're in the freaking World Series, and won it last year. They're the best team I've ever rooted for in my life, no question.

The only thing is that it ruins your credibility as an objective observer. It's fine to be an unabashed homer for this team, but just don't expect us to take your opinions very seriously.

Pettite isn't annoying because he isn't flashy, just comes to the park and does his job. Pretty well, too. And didn't he admit the steroids use and apologize for it?

A rainout would be beneficial (not only could CC not pitch 3 times, neither could Cliff Lee so we wouldn't have to experiment with using him on short rest), as well as preferable to a rain delay. What happens if the rain comes in the 3rd inning? Who holds the pitching edge if CC and Lee both need to be replaced mid-game?

I think the Phils would probably bring in Happ and the Yanks Gaudin. I dont know much about Gaudin, but it doesn't appear they have to much confidence in him since they insist on going with the 3 man rotation.

agree with R Billingsly, lets get this going already.

Jack: Any evidence to support your claims that I'm some cheerleader blind to anything negative? Anything at all?

Sorry I don't fit into the general wet blanket philosophy that dominates Beerleaguer, but I give my opinion and back it up. If you don't like it, I don't care. If you disagree, feel free to say so.

exchanges between clout,cj with awh and smoky too, plus mvp's struggle of sarcasm and everyone else's struggle to help him has made me have to close the door in my office from laughing.

Spitz: i agree with you on how bad the Yanks bench is, but its still better than ours. At least Guzman and Gardener have speed. With francisco in the field, we have absolutely nothing off the bench except for left handed intimidation in the form of Matt Stairs.

Cipper: Blanton will start before Happ, I believe. I think there's been a general erosion in confidence in Happ as a starter and the Phils prefer to use him out of the bullpen. If there's a rainout, I'd suspect we'd see:

Thu: Lee vs. CC
Fri: Pedro vs. AJ
Sat: Hamels vs. Pettite
Sun: Blanton vs. Gaudin
Mon: Lee vs. CC
Tue: Off
Wed: Pedro vs. AJ
Thu: Hamels vs. Pettite

I'd guess our bench is taller than their bench.
I'd also guess its heavier too with Mr. Stairs.

That enough should give our bench the edge

Cipper - if we were playing on a see-saw, I would agree with you

Ah... I think I've figured it out...

The wet blankets can't believe it. Amaro's moves have been largely successful. Charlie's decisions have been largely successful.

They're backed in a corner. We're on the brink of back-to-back WFCs and they're not sure what to do.

I feel sorry for you, I really do. I'd imagine you're secretly hoping that Manuel screws up... or that the lack of George Sherril costs us in the World Series. Then you can go back into your familar role of bitching and moaning instead of lashing out at those of us enjoying this great success.

Potential A-Rod chant: "Where's Ma-donna?"

CJ: is that definitely how it goes if its rain out? I haven't heard that anywhere. I agree thats how it should be since the travel days are only a 1hr train ride - but almost think that makes too much sense for mlb to actually do.

Phils moneyline at +165 for the series. Not a bad idea...

FWIW, Blanton has pretty awful numbers against the big Yankees bats.

Teixeira: 9/27, .333/.357/.704
Jeter: 4/12, .333/.385/.583
Rodriguez: 4/7, .571/.727/1.571 (!)

CJ: I was talking about a rain delay (do they even do them in Post season?) Though, I agree they would throw blanton instead of Happ to keep the Left/Right/Left/Right rotation

Blanton's ERA is over 8 against the Yankees.

We'll all the the Post and NY Daily News the day after Phillies' victories.

Let 'em bite, CJ. Let 'em bite.

NEPP, one point about that is that Blanton has three mediocre starts against the Yankees (19 1/3 IP, 11 R; 5.12 ERA) and one awful start against the Yankees (2.2 IP, 9 R). the three mediocre starts were all 6+ IP with 4 runs or less, which frankly I would gladly take out of Blanton if he starts in the WS.

granted, this is kind of cherry-picking, but I think there's some defense for it. for one thing, that 2 IP/9 R start was in 2005, during Blanton's rookie year. for two, it was exactly 1 week after Blanton made a more respectable 6 IP/4 R start—I don't think it's unreasonable that overfamiliarity could have led to that performance.

CJ: I just said that the Phillies are the best team I've ever rooted for. How does that make me a wet blanket?

Over the years I think you'll have noticed comments from me both positive and negative. I try to analyze the team objectively, although of course I'm a fan. I root for the team to win every single game, but I'd never predict them to go 162-0. You see the difference?

And, sadly, now you've fallen into the rhetorical trap of having to attack people like Clout and myself as not really fans, as wanting the Phillies to lose. Once you've done that, there's no point to even having a debate anymore. You've proven yourself to be not worthy of it.

Posters like Clout and myself have done nothing but try discuss the Phillies as both fans and regard them objectively. If you have no interest in that, I'm sorry we've wasted your time. I'm sure there are some interesting comments sections over at which will entertain you.

Jack: CJ, isn't saying your not a fan. He is just saying that almost every move made this year was met with unwarrented negativity. Which is mostly true. 99% of threads have some sort of negative vibe. I know you and Clout feel as though you run this place, and I am also aware that negativity = post counts to rise. Which you two along with BAP feel as part of the reason this blog is one of the better Phillies blogs.

But surely, you have to admit that you were not a fan of Ibanez, Amaro, or Manual.

Going off the negativity point. It is also a main reason why I prefer to watch the games at my house watching rather than on here. Because if it is 2-0 in favor of the opposition after 1 inning, the posts are all doom and gloom. Which at least for me isn't enjoyable.

This just in: Myers is on the roster, Cairo is off.

The comments to this entry are closed.

EST. 2005

Top Stories


Rotoworld News

Follow on Twitter

Follow on Facebook

Contact Weitzel