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Monday, September 28, 2009


"Get me Vaughn"

"Rick Vaughn"

"I know his track record against this guy isn't the greatest, but I think he's due."


"I want Parkman"

I still probably quote Major League 5-6 times at every game I attend. Though I am clearly part of the problem.

I would blame Tony LaRussa more than anyone. He essentially invented the 1 inning closer, the LOOGY, multiple pitching switches, 7 hour games, etc etc. I respect what he's done as a manager but I still hate him.

I personally miss the day of 4 man rotations, where starters went deep into games and multiple relievers were used to finish the games depending on the match ups. These roles that the relief pitchers have to have now in order to feel secure and know what their use is, is just ridiculous. I do not like the way the game has changed in regards to the specialization of the bullpen, it's made contracts sky-rocket, and pitchers get big egos/fragile psyches.

Good gravy, I'm not sure I've ever seen a 4-game series where the pitching matchups are this one-sided. There are absolutely no excuses not to win at least 3 of 4.

Tonight at 7:05
Houston RHP Wilton Lopez (0-0, 8.44 ERA) vs. LHP Cole Hamels (10-9, 4.11).

Tomorrow at 7:05 p.m.
Houston RHP Yorman Bazardo (0-2, 9.55) vs. LHP J.A. Happ (11-4, 2.79).

Wednesday at 7:05 p.m.
Houston RHP Brian Moehler (8-11, 5.21) vs. LHP Cliff Lee (14-12, 3.19; 7-3, 3.28 with Phillies).

Thursday at 7:05 p.m.
Houston RHP Felipe Paulino (2-11, 6.51) vs. RHP Pedro Martinez (5-1, 3.32).

Braves go to Florida and end with 4 games at Nats while the Rockies have Brewers/Dodgers in their last week.

If the Braves stay hot and overtake the Rockies, we're looking at the Cards in Round 1 - not ideal.

Quote from Charlie seems reminiscent of the "Old Yeller" Post on BeerLeaguer:

"Lidge will get back to where he was. I'm a firm believer in that," Manuel said. "I don't want to shoot Lidge. I think he'll be back to where he was at really. Seriously. But I think right now just from a mental aspect and everything - physical and mental - he needs a little break."

Maybe Charlie is a reader after all.If he is , he must have a thick skin.

I'm with gm-carson. Think how valuable someone like Sparky Lyle would be now, a guy who wanted, demanded, to be in there all the time.

I remember watching him back in the late 70's when he was part of the Bronx Zoo Yankees and we were all marveling that it seemed as if he could pitch forever if need be, like a machine.

BTW, good article in Sports Illustrated about Lidge and how he has handled a horrendously difficult situation in a classy, adult manner. Kudos to him for dealing with this the way he has.

1. I fully expect the Phils to clinch against the Astros.

2. I often wondered why the Phils (or any team) "needs" an 8th inning set up man and a closer, etc. Why take out a pitcher if they're being effective?

3. How the hell is Prince Fielder able to play without using a Rascal to round the bases? I saw him at CBP in the playoffs last year, and he looked like a barn. He looks even bigger now. What does he eat?

4. I was worrying about the Phils when I realized they had a 5-5 road trip. Not stellar, but not as alarming as I thought. (It feels like a 2-8 road trip.) Then I got caught up in the other divisions. The Dodgers and Cards aren't playing their best, either. I'm not as worried now.

I wish Manuel would make Rollins do pushups every time he popped up.

Prince Fielder is a vegetarian, which is awesome.

The comment below is aimed at all of baseball, not a cheap shot at the Phillies starting pitching - Disclaimer over

As long ago as the two inning seems, my grandfather used to tell me about a concept called the "complete game" for a starting pitcher.

Just saying...

"the Phillies nailed down a close one the natural way"

This could start a trend: the organic bullpen! Instead of Rolaids, whoever gets a save will be awarded ginkgo pills.

As I have written in the past and finally some of you are coming around a closer is someone who islights out in the absence of Mr. Lights out youuse the bestpitcher for the spot regardles of the inning!

Tony D: Maybe he needs a change in scenery. Let's make the BLers happy. How about moving Jimmy to 3rd and batting him 6th. Yup, that should do the trick.

Kutztown Fan: I think it is near impossible for the Phillies not to clinch by Thursday. Unless of course they get swept, and the Braves sweep the Marlins. Then it will be BLer "Panic Overload".

G-town Dave: 92 wins this year? 92? Really. You disappointed me with that post yesterday. I say they go 5-2 to close out the season and finish with a very healthy 95-67 record.

The Phils will do well (enough) in the series upcoming, law-of-averages style. To go 0-8 or 1-7 against the 'stros would be really remarkable.

Rusty, you should watch this place go up in flames when the starter comes out for the 9th.

I caught the two games Phillies/Astros 1980 NLCS on the MLB Network last weekend, and it really was something to see Tug McGraw come in the 7th inning and go three.

I'm still shocked that Madson was able to get the save. He looked great in the 8th, but we he came out to the mound in the 9th, he had that dreaded Deer in the Headlights Look (DITHL). It must be just dumb luck that he locked down another save.

CJ: Wait, the same DITHL that I have preached and been mocked about for months. No way! That can't be true.

That one went flying right over someone's head.


Doc - did you watch the replay of the Game 5 of the Phils/Astros 1980 playoff? Tug McGraw had a blown save in the 8th. I didn't remember that.

CJ - but, did you notice how pumped Madson was to end the game with a strike out? That sort of intensity is needed in all of the Phils.

Jonesman - Elephants are vegetarians, too.

smoky: I am being sarcastic as well. But Madson didn't really do anything in the 8th. But in the 9th he was ok. Truth is he is lucky to get the save.

To quote Cool Hand Luke (and Guns n Roses):

"Some men, you just can't reach."

"I personally miss the day of 4 man rotations, where starters went deep into games . . . "

The reality is that before Curt Flood and the advocacy of FA, teams controlled their players. As a result, salaries were paltry for most players well into the 1960s and owners largely expected their starting pitchers to go the entire game if necessary and literally pitch until your arm fell off. Owners weren't going to pay a lot for every pitcher on their roster and certainly weren't going to pay any kind of appreciable sum for a guy who largely didn't pitch.

I am not crazy about overspecialization of the game either and the salaries have swung to the extreme end but I wouldn't support a return to where the players are serfs who are at the beck and call of owners either.

MVP: Filthy 98 MPH sinkers on the black, and he was lucky? What does this guy have to do?

MG, I think Congress should revisit that whole anti-trust exemption thing.

Bay: Not hang balls for Fielder to barely miss smacking into outer space. I am not saying Madson wasn't good. I just didn't like him giving Fielder that pitch. He already got Braun out, he should hve pitched around Fielder, then gotten Lopez like he did, but that would have been a DP to end the game. Instead of relying on a Cameron with a man on 3rd and having BLers reaching for the nearest Alcoholic Beverage.

A pick-off that resulted in an out , instead of a stolen base, in the 8th inning was also a welcome change.

MVP: Gameday showed that pitch as a 4seam fastball (not sure how you hang a FB), that was slightly off the plate. I'd say it was more of a good piece of hitting than it was a bad pitch.

What would of been different about that inning if Lidge gave up that double?

Bay: I don't know. Am I a psychic?

I've been advocating the death of the closer (on this team) for weeks. Pitch 'em til they can't get guys out, then put in the next guy. In some respects, the specialization introduced by LaRussa may be more effective in terms of allowing you to use your best pitchers more frequently but, I don't know that you're getting more production out of your best arms in terms of outs /innings, though, which was the beauty of hte shorter bullpens.

As for Madson getting lucky, I don't buy that. Maybe strike 3 to Cameron was off the plate but, the totality of his effort was very good. He let up the hit to Fielder and he didn't let him score. We used to have a guy who could do that pitching in the 9th inning. I'm all for giving Madson and any of several arms, if healthy,(Park, Myers, Eyre, Romero) the opportunity to do it in October. IF we have them or not, Mr. Happ might do, too.

I thought the most impressive portion of Madson's outing was the 8th inning pickoff. What a contrast to Brad Lidge making every other team's mediocre pinch runner look like the next coming of Rickey Henderson. It baffles me why so many closers are so bad at holding runners.

If a guy comes on to pitch in the 8th, and he does well, bring him in to pitch the 9th. Simple. Just in case, have someone warming up in the bullpen.

Ahhh, yes, the complete game. I remember it well. I will never forget seeing Steve Carlton pitch against Bob Gibson at the Vet. Phils won 1-0, both pitchers threw complete games, and I vaguely remember that game was under 2 hours.

Madson didnt get "lucky". He looked good earned the save.

Reposted from the end of last thread:

Madson is now 8 for 12 in 9th inning save opportunities. That doesn't sound so great, but it's worth noting that a ridiculous 7 of his 12 opportunities (58%), and 3 of his 4 blown saves, have come under the most difficult of circumstances: when he entered the game with just a 1-run lead and absolutely no margin for error. Almost ANY closer's save percentage would look a whole lot worse if 58% of his save opportunities came with a one-run lead.

Yet another reason why save percentage is an often misleading stat.

Hugh: I am still in favor of keeping Madson in the 8th and using Myers if healthy in the 9th. If Myers isn't going to return then I dunno what the answer will be? According to Charlie, maybe, just maybe Mr. Lidge will be back.

BAP: Yea, Yea, Yea. First Blown saves in the 8th need to be subtracted out, now save percentage is misleading. So according to that than we must go soley based on ERA's? Also,"Almost ANY closer's save percentage would look a whole lot worse if 58% of his save opportunities came with a one-run lead.". Really? That's news to me. Lidge was excellent last year within one run and most closers are alot better than 58% in 1-run close situations.

Tommy: This is not an attack, but a serious question. What, based on his year so far, gives you any confidence that Myers can close? He has not looked good to me, is coming off a relatively serious injury (requiring surgery) and seemed to rush back too quickly.

Again, not an attack. I am curious to hear your answer.

mvp - Why would you use Myers at this point in the 9th in the postseason when it is highly likely that he may only have a single appearance before the playoffs begin?

People can talk all they want about Madson and his buckling under to pressure but the reality is that right now he is by far and away the guy with the best stuff in the pen and the guy I feel most comfortable with in a close game late.

Madson hung one to Fielder?

That he barely missed smacking into outer space?

Is someone watching a different game? Fielder hit a ball pitched away to the opposite field. It had absolutely no chance of going out. It was a great piece of hitting by a great hitter.

And then all Madson did was induce a weak grounder back to the pitcher and strike out Cameron looking.

But I guess he got lucky that a massive wind gust didn't lift Fielder's opposite field line drive and lift it 20 feet in the air and carry it 100 feet further over the wall.

Overuse of Madson and his fastball velocity dips into the low-90s. Then he's not effective. He should be used as sparingly as possible and only in 2-run save situations. This is my only complaint of Cholly. During the season, Cholly brings him in with 4 and 5 run leads. That's stupid.

And that's the last time I'll engage mvptommyd on Madson as closer. He's once again entered troll territory and he's just not worth it. I swore him off before but clearly relapsed. I look forward to intelligent conversation again.

To the rest of Beerleaguer: Don't feed the trolls.

Argued this early this year and "Saves" and "Save %" are arguably the two most useful statistics in baseball. Not because "saves' not matter per-se but because one of the most basic values of any measure is that it has a large degree of descriptive validity in what it is detailing. By this account, "Saves" tells you almost nothing and "save %" isn't much better.

R. Bill: For me it isn't so much a question of "Do I think Myers can close?". It is more a question of "Who else is there that can close?". Park in pressure situations in the beginning and endings of game isn't as effective. Eyre never did it before. Same with Romero. Moyer will get eaten alive as a closer. I would rather have Pedro as a starter. Happ is the long guy, so he can't be our closer as well. Madson is our 8th inning guy aka setup man. Unless Lee/Hamels/Blanton pitch 8 innings, I don't want Madson in the 9th. Also, Madson doesn't bode well in 2 inning appearances history tells me. So that leaves Myers and Lidge. Right now, I rather see Myers over Lidge if healthy. Wouldn't you?

CJ: Fine. You have your opinion and I have mine. Use Madson as you closer. Get ready to lose 8th inning leads in the playoffs.

I am so sick and tired of people here not believing in roles. The whole reason the bullpen was effective last year WAS because of roles. This year the bullpen is all injured, so there are NO roles.

Fielder is a vegetarian, which leads me to believe he must only eat pizza and oreos. Maybe the two together. Man that guy is huge.

How could we all, including Charlie, Ruben and Dubee, have missed it all year?

After looking at Charlie Sheen's picture in JW's post- it's clear that Lidge's problems could be solved by thick, black framed glasses!

Thanks, JW.

Excuse my ignorance, but isn't it the role of ALL pitchers to keep guys off base and not give up runs?

(Resisting the urge to make more cracks about Fielder's size.)

Willy - Cholly almost never manages with any thought on the intermediate and long-term effects of using his bullpen. He basically has come out time & time again that he is "playing to the win today."

It results in him using his best relievers too often even if he has other serviceable pitchers who are rested and could preserve a 4 or 5-run lead with an 1 or 2 to play.

This is just one of the many things that drives me nuts about how Cholly uses his bullpen.

Madson is a great case in point. Of Madson's 77 appearances, Cholly has used him 14 times when the Phils have either been up or down by more than 4 runs.

This is largely idiocy pure and simple yet Cholly somehow largely got a pass on here earlier this season in regards to how he utilizes his bullpen. It was almost like people magically forget how he overused his bullpen in 2006 and it cost them down the stretch or his largely inept bumblings with the bullpen in 2007 directly lead to Myers blowing out his arm and plenty of other losses during the summer.

Cholly has many strengths as a manager but managing a pitching staff and a bullpen in particular isn't one of them.

mvp - More blind adherence to "specific roles" eh? Your argument of Myers vs. Lidge is a false one. It is Madson vs. Lidge and the answer is simple.

Kutztown: Yes. But how are the guys in the bullpen supposed to be focused on pitching when they do not know when they will be used? Some nights, it is the 6th some nights it is the 7th, some nights even the 8th.

It is like you or I working 9-5 everyday. We know when we are coming and going. Now say we are woken up at 4 in the morning some nights and expected to work at 5 some days just as functionally as if we went into work at our regular time. But we are told which nights this will take place. We are now out of our role and won't be as effective.

MG: That is fine. Than who is the new setup guy? Because if you move the setup guy to closer. Now we need just as effective new setup guy.

mvp - Your constantly preach this nonsense about that relievers need an "exact specific role" or they won't succeed and the reality is that due to several factors you almost never have that option avaiable as a manager due to injuries, schedule, usage, starting pitching, etc.

It is great if you can use X-Y-Z in the 7th-8th-9th innings or Y-Z in the 8th-9th innnings but it just normally doesn't play out like that.

MG: along with that, he never seems to give Utley a break, which results in our best player getting worn out by the end of the season. granted, in this case, the blame doesn't fall entirely on cholly - the FO hasn't given him much to work with in the way of a reliable infield bench - but still, it's his job to be creative about these things, play matchups, whatever.

mvp - Another bogus argument. The issue with the Phils' pen isn't the "closer" or the "setup guy" is the pain and simple fact that the only guy they have right now in the bullpen is a guy who want to see in close game last is Madson. Maybe Happ but he still hasn't been officially moved back to the pen yet.

Yeah, the Phils will likely have to matchup as they did yesterday between Blanton and Madson. That is the reality of things given the injuries they have right now and the lack of real quality arms in the pen. Means Cholly is going to have to sort throught the likes of Condrey, Eyre, Durbin, Walker, etc. and roll the dice.

MG: Well, why then does almost every former reliever who is a analyst harp on the "role" theory as well? Are they all actually wrong? And the truth really lies within the BLer blog?

MVP: So you still want to count 8th inning blown saves? Fine. In that case, I get to count the 26 holds, since those were "save opportunities" where he did what he was supposed to do.

Let me repeat what I said, but pay attention this time: "Almost ANY closer's save percentage would look a whole lot worse if 58% of his save opportunities came with a one-run lead." Most closers have save percentages around 80 to 85%, but that number is padded by the fact that many opportunities come from cheap, easy saves. Madson's situation is the opposite: his percentage is made to look worse because a hugely disproportionate number of his opportunities have come in the most difficult of circumstances.

Honestly, dude. What is your beef with Madson? You got it in your head that Madson can't close and you are so determined to prove your argument right that you are resorting to nonsensical arguments like "Madson was lucky" last night. Madson has saved 5 out of his last 6 save opportunities (83%), with 3 of those saves coming in 1-run situations and the one blown save occurring when his manager used him for the 4th time in 5 days.

Breathe deeply & try to say this 3 times: Madson has done a good job since taking over for Lidge as closer.

Lavallo - Yeah but it is hard to fault Cholly there really. Bruntlett is a stiff who even Cholly has relegated to official benchwarmer/PR only status since Labor Day, Utley is the best overall player, and he has a strong desire to play everyday.

It would be nice if the Phils had a capable middle utility INF this year to give Utley a breather 1-2 times a month but just wasn't in the cards.

Phils just have to hope they can clinch the NL East against the Astros and give Utley off a 1-2 games vs. Fish.

Tommy: I agree that roles in the bullpen are important. They are not necessarily the be-all-end-all, but they are important nonetheless. However, this mess (read: bullpen) is not going to be solved by placing people in certain roles. There are way too many question marks at this point. My opinion, which I think is shared by others, is that the Phils would be best served by playing to match-ups and have a bullpen by committee type of set up. We'll have to see who is healthy and effective come playoff time.

If you insist on sticking with "roles" in the bullpen, then our choices for closer are Madson, Madson, or Madson. Pick one and go with it.

mvp - In part because it is baseball dogma now even if it is largely somewhat overblown and once again the Phils aren't in a situation where relievers can have a "designated" role due to the injury status and Lidge's shortcomings? What don't you understand about that?

BAP: The ONLY problem I have isn't with Madson. It is actually strangely enough with Lidge now. He is the one that put us in the situation we are in.

Let me ask you this. Is Madson more consistantly effective as the setup guy or closer?

He is better in the 8th inning, therefore he should stay there. That is my whole argument.

I would have no problem giving Utley a rest and have the Gnome play. The Saint's bat has been pretty quiet.

I don't know how Ryan Howard does it. Yesterday, he came right out in the first inning and drilled a double. The day before, he hit a homerun in the 5th inning, and got 2 more hits in the 3rd and 7th innings. The day before that, he had a 2-run hit in the 8th. It's incredible. He goes into the game having no idea which inning he's going to have to hit in, and yet he still manages to succeed. Just amazing.

MG - you're right, he's in a tricky situation. but i think some games he just needs to hold his nose and put cairo or bruntlett in, with the long view in mind. the long view not only being keeping utley fresh, but also letting those guys get some playing time in case they're unexpectedly needed. they may stink, but they're what we've got.

but i do agree with you - basically this is a FO problem. it's amazing to me that they couldn't find a freakin utility infielder by the trade deadline. i just hope it doesn't come back to haunt them.

mvp, your argument doesnt apply because the situation has changed.

Old Phan: Gnome hasn't had a single AB since Cairo was called up. Literally. Not one. Cairo seems to have taken over Bruntlett's old role, so I assume he would be the one to start if Utley sits. It will be interesting to see what happens if the Phillies decide to keep 12 pitchers on the post-season roster which, in turn, would mean that either Bruntlett or Cairo has to go.

mvptommyd: "Also, Madson doesn't bode well in 2 inning appearances history tells me."

I know I promised not to, but I couldn't resist.

You're WRONG.

Madson has 6 multi-inning appearances this season in which he's pitched 9.1 innings, given up 3 hits, 0 walks and allowed just 1 run.

In the second half of last year (beginning of July) he 8 multi-inning appearances in which he pitched 13.2 innings, gave up 9 hits, 2 walks and 1 run.

That's 23 IP, 12 H, 2 BB, 2 R. A WHIP of 0.609 and an ERA of 0.78. And 8 of those 14 appearances were 2 full innings.

What say you now?

BAP - are you saying that Ryan has a role (driving in runs), but doesn't know which inning he will be called upon to fulfill that role? But...but... how can he be successful unless he knows which inning he'll be needed to drive in runs?

BAP-Fine, put in Cairo. Perhaps Cholly is waiting for the team to clinch before he rests Utley.
Knowing UC, he will probably keep Gnome on the post season roster.

Prince Fielder is a vegetarian, which is awesome.

He must have a 2 chambered stomach then.

CJ: Why are you just looking at the 2nd half?

For the FULL 2008 season he pitched 16 appearances. 32.1 innings, 20 hits, 7 runs. That includes the bad multi-inning appearance against the Brewers in the playoffs.

MVP: That sounds like a 1.96 ERA to me. Are you contending that a 1.96 ERA constitutes a failure? Or are you contending that the one bad appearance in the playoffs nullifies a full year worth of good numbers?

I'm in complete disagreement with everyone who wants to abolish bullpen roles and get two- or three-inning saves from whomever is available or matches up right.

Bullpen pitchers do better in one-inning appearances. Madson used to get crushed in his second inning of work. Now, his outings are shorter and his fastball is up in the high 90's.

Shorter appearances allow relievers to pitch two or three days in a row. Imagine if Madson went three innings tonight. Who would pitch tomorrow? Tyler Walker? Then Wednesday you have your choice of Clay Condrey or Chad Durbin.

Relievers like their roles. Over and over again they say in interviews that they like to know when they'll be called upon.

Finally, we've seen it work. Romero to Gordon to Myers is 2007. Romero to Madson to Lidge in 2008.

The problem with the Phillies isn't that they put too much weight on bullpen roles. It's that they only have one healthy and effective reliever. Without three relief pitchers you can count on, you're not going to be able to get 9 outs per night from your bullpen no matter how you split them up.

Tommy's just pissed that 6'6" Madson missed his calling as a corner infielder.

Kutz: As usual you are puting words in my mouth. Roles are for pitchers.

tommy, tommy, tommy boy.....don't you get it?

I'll put it in question form:

Was Madson, after recommitting himself to a fitness regimen in ST 2008 and strenghtening his shoulder, a different and better pitcher the last half of 2008 when the hard work started to pay off?

mvptommyd: I stopped there b/c I only have so much time in a day to commit to your idiocy.

Since the beginning of 2008:
27 appearances, 48 IP, 32 H, 10 BB, 9 R, 0.875 WHIP and 1.69 ERA.

16 appearances were 2 full innings. 32 IP, 19 H, 6 BB, 6 R, 0.781 WHIP, 1.69 ERA.

I'm guessing those numbers aren't good enough for you?

awh: Ahhhh. So now we can use his "training program" as a excuse and therefore discard all his 1st half troubles. Yet people won't discard Ibanez's slow 2nd half after his injury, instead just chalking it up as "reverting to career norms". Hmmm, this is always a good way to see who the BLer favorites are.

I am puzzled as to why Manuel put in starters for both games of a double header in Florida if the team is tired. My guess is that he was going for the kill but if there is ever a time that a tired team could use a break is the second game of a double header in 90 degree heat against an average pitcher at the end of the season with a 7 game lead in the division.

I am also curious why Bruntlett hasn't had an at bat since going 5 for 10 in 3 games in August. He must have pissed somebody off.

Its so funny the different standard that Madson is held to by some. That 'bad' multi-inning appearance in the NLDS? 2 innings, 2 hits, 1 run in a game the Phils won 6-2! What?!?!

mvptommyd: I'm waiting... I've included his first half stats. In fact, I even made a mistake.

26 appearances of between 1.1 and 2 IP.
45.2 IP, 29 H, 10 BB, 7 R
0.854 WHIP, 1.38 ERA

Are these numbers, since the beginning of 2008 (no cherry-picking here), good enough to blast your stupid opinion out of the water?

Or are you still going to believe that Madson struggles when he has to go more than an inning?

Whoever said that the choice for closer comes down to Madson, Madson or Madson is right. Beyond that, to follow the formula of 7-8-9 we need guys healthy enough to fill those roles. My favorite fallacy is Myers as the closer. What makes anyone think he will be effective enough to handle the role, much less effective in consecutive appearances? The health of the bullpen seems to compel a mix and match approach at this point. Probably more likely that Madson will simply assume the role previously filled by Lidge and that hte mixing and matching will occur in the earlier innings but, I don't necessarily like the idea of limiting Madson to one inning per appearance.

CJ: It must be the lawyer in me, but sometimes I feel compelled to take up for the indefensble.

In that spirit, I would say that, in fairness to MVPTommy, the key numbers we would have to see are not Madson's overall numbers in multi-inning appearances, but his numbers in the 2nd inning of those multi-inning appearances. Without those numbers, you really haven't proven that Madson has a strong track record in multi-inning situations.

If CJ's numbers are correct, and you assume the absolute worst, namely that all runs against Madson occurred after the first inning, his era from 1.0 IP to 2.0 IP would still just be 2.74.

45.2 IP - 26 IP = 19.2 IP. 7 runs total, = 2.74 ERA. Pretty good.

bap: In the 6 multi-inning appearances where Madson allowed at least a run, the run was scored in the 2nd inning twice. Once on a solo home run and once JC Romero allowed a runner inherited from Madson to score.

In 24 of the 26 multi-inning appearances, no runs were allowed in the 2nd inning he appeared.

Well, I haven't crunched the numbers, but I did an eye-ball look at his 2008 & 2009 game logs, as well as the box scores in the multi-inning appearances where he allowed runs. My eye-ball look tells me that he has done absolutely fine in the 2nd inning and that, when he has allowed runs in multi-inning situations, those runs have been just as likely to occur in his first inning as in his second.

Also, I should have done some fact-checking on MVPTommy's earlier assertion that Madson had a bad multi-inning appearance in the NLDS. In fact, he had 2 multi-inning appearances in the NLDS, another 2 in the NLCS, and 1 more in the WS. His numbers in those 7.2 innings of work: 1 run allowed, 4 hits, 1 walk, 9 strikeouts. The only negative I see is that, in 2 of those 5 multi-inning appearances, he got a deer-in-headlights look in the second inning.

CJ: Thanks. That confirms what my eye-ball look at the box scores told me. But you're still failing to account for one important piece of info. In 5 of those 6 multi-inning appearances, he came out for his second inning with a deer-in-headlights look on his face.

Does the DITHL stat apply to day games as well as night games, and is weather a factor?

BAP- You are on to something with "The only negative I see is that, in 2 of those 5 multi-inning appearances, he got a deer-in-headlights look in the second inning."

To some, it's appearance not performance that counts.
Madson -Deer in the Headlights
Hamels - Not manly enough
Blanton- Too fat
Etc, etc.

It not how you well you play , but if you "look like a ballplayer".

Old Phan: This is definitely an issue on which empirical research is needed. But common sense tells me that DITHL numbers get worse in night games, since there are no headlights during the day.

BAP-Exactly what was I was thinking, so there has to be an adjustment to the numbers.

The reliever pitchers' role is to get outs.

MVP - When have I EVER put words in your mouth? And my statement re: Howard knocking in runs was all in fun. So relax.

I guess your role as the BL punching bag has made you a bit sensitive. Sorry about that.

I get your "roles" theory, and it make sense (even if some people don't agree). My point is, all ball players should come to the park, ready to perform. If you're in the bullpen, you should know that you could be called upon at any time to do your job. Kind of like an obstetrician on-call. He might not know when a baby is going to come, but he has to be ready to catch it during his shift.

I think the closer is now Madson unless Madson has pitch three days in a row, then it will be Lidge's job to give Madson a day of rest.

Joe-Succinct and to the point.

The situation is quite fluid. The Phils got lucky with Romero-Madson-Lidge because they remained both effective and healthy. That isn't happening now, so they must adjust.

leviculas tomas preur, way to obfuscate and ignore MY question.

I don't really care about the other posters here who use different or the same argument for Ibanez - never mind the fact that results from a training program and delcines from injury are two entirely different things.

Again, nice obfuscation. So go and hide even though CJ has demolished your uneducated and uninformed blather.

Try doing a little research before you post utter and defenseless nonsense.

And, take note of the word "non-sense". It describes your posts on the Madson 1+ IP subject to a tee.

And in case no one else will tell you, you look like even more of a fool by continually trying to offer a defense.

But, I forgot. No one else on here has ever played the game and we "don't know baseball".

So getting back to my original question, it's this simple, dude:

Answer the question or STFU.

bap: I've petitioned to add DITHL to their stats. I'd imagine Fangraphs will pick it up first.

bap - Don't forget that a lot of cars have daytime running lights. And I wonder if the floodlights might be getting mistaken for headlights? Perhaps they should experiment with leaving them off - the bullpen needs all the help it can get!

I had hoped that Madson's performance yesterday would stop the "He can't be a closer" type comments from mvp, but no, apparently not. And man, was Madson PUMPED after getting that last out. Methinks he might like closing.

bap and Old Phan:

You conveniently ignore daytime running lamps. In the last 10 years, there have been lots of DITHL occurrences in day games. I think the occurrences diminish greatly in domed stadiums.

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EST. 2005

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