Game chat: Phillies battle Vazquez, aches and pains

Carlos Ruiz (wrist) and Shane Victorino (bad batch of poi) are out of the lineup tonight when Pedro Martinez (5-0, 2.87) and the Phillies play the second of three against Javier Vazquez (13-9, 3.01) and the Braves.

Preview: Following yesterday's convincing win to give the Phils a commanding eight-game lead and extend their win streak to six, today's talk centered around this sudden rash of injuries. While Scott Eyre and J.C. Romero appear to be on the road back following successful bullpen sessions, the latest ding has knocked Jack Taschner (back) out of action; he will join Chan Ho Park on a rehab assignment in Clearwater, according to reports. Chooch and Scott Eyre are hoping to return for Tuesday's double-header, according to the Inquirer's Andy Martino. [Link]

Speaking of Martino's update, he buried the lead further down the report. Get a load of this: "Charlie Manuel has strongly hinted that if Eyre and Romero are not able to return and pitch effectively, Happ would be sent to the bullpen for the playoffs." I'd agree at the moment, but let's just see how Pedro finishes up after throwing a ton of pitches these last couple starts.

Following a 3-for-5 night with a homer, Ben Francisco returns to the lineup tonight and bats second. To be frank, I'm not disappointed to see Vic get a few days off; I haven't been in love with the way he's been swinging the bat lately. On the other hand, Chooch must be frustrated to ride the pine in the midst of one of his best stretches ever. The Phils will have their work cut out for them against Vazquez, who has been an incredibly solid acquisition by the Bravos.

Comments

[king myno]

Poor Taschner. Sitting in the bullpen all game must be incredibly taxing on the old back.

[Voice of Reason]

"Manuel has strongly HINTED that...Happ would be sent to the bullpen"?

Hell, we here on BLer sent him there weeks ago!

Happ's a solid performer, my ROY, and a member of the 2010 rotation...but he's not edging out a devastating Pedro for a playoff spot in the rotation.

(And Pedro takes too long to warm up to be in the BP -- witness his 1st inning yips.)

[Hugh Mulcahy]

The quote I saw from Manuel was to the effect (paraphrased heavily) that "we didn't want to take any chances wiht Happ. We can't afford to lose him because we need a lefty." Obviously, they don't need another lefty in the rotation.

[Unikruk]

Off-topic note probably better suited to the off-seasons: Reynolds now with exactly twice as many strikeouts as Utley (hint hint, round numbers). His season looking awfully similar to Rynos. Would anyone here be able to deal with two players of this type in the same infield?

[cory]

are the stories true? i need a confirmation that shane actually pooped himself a couple nights ago.

[Voice of Reason]

@ Cory. I had not heard that one.

But if you want a similar story about George Brett...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUdHMkE5Qdk

[cory]

VOR- good stuff hahahha

[gm-carson]

Vazquez has some serious stuff. His pitching repertoire is filthy.

Pedro's location has been poor so far.

[king myno]

Perhaps having your 37-year-old pitcher throw 130 pitches in a game for the first time in eight years WAS a bad idea.

[G-Town Dave]

Pedro, on the other hand, has pretty much nothing tonight. Maybe letting a 37-year-old man throw 130 pitches wasn't such a brilliant idea after all?

[Old Phan]

Or maybe he just isn't pitching well. Hard to know.

[G-Town Dave]

Nope. It's not that hard to know anymore. Charlie = Dumbass.

[phlipper]

Oh boy. Somehow, I think that there will be a few BL comments regarding Pedro's 130 pitches in his last start.

Maybe a bit of questioning of UC' decision to leave Pedro in that long?

Just a hunch.

[Jack]

And Pedro out of the game, leaving with the trainer. You can't prove it's realted to the 130 pitches, of course, but in general, the worst case scenario just happened.

Again, no idea if it's related to the high pitch count last week, but if your argument is that throwing a lot of pitches doesn't matter, this is about the worst thing to happen in terms of proving your point.

[HOLYMACKREL]

G-Town Dave - NOW HE'S OUT WITH A BAD NECK

UC will be second guessed on this...

[Jack]

Anyone wanna tell us where Brett Myers is? For the guy people thought was going to be our savior, I sure haven't seen much of him.

[HOLYMACKREL]

Jack- we cAn surmise and assume - Which is close to having all the facts - isn't it??

[G-Town Dave]

Jack:I think he's on Charlie's sh*t list. Nothing that's been said about him has been even remotely positive.

[HOLYMACKREL]

yay bakko

better than paulino

better than jarmillo

[J. Weitzel]

Better safe than sorry at this point. That's undoubtedly how everyone is approaching things with an eight-game lead.

[G-Town Dave]

Savvy veteran error by Bako. Chooch can't come back soon enough. Also, Durbin blows goat.

[Jack]

G-Town Dave: So then you don't think Myers will be our postseason closer? I could've sworn I heard he would be on here.

[gm-carson]

What the hell? Now Pedro is hurt.

We're not going to have any players left worth playing come playoffs.

Hurt: Pedro, Happ, Romero, Ruiz, Eyre.

Limited: Myers (heard he's having arm pain when pitching too much). Still don't know what Condrey has. Lidge has apparently had blisters.

[J. Weitzel]

Pays to have good depth these days (Moyer, Kendrick). That's better than Yorman Bazardo, Nelson Figueroa, etc.

[G-Town Dave]

Jack: If you are referring to my previous comments, you're confusing "should be" w/ "will be". I said Myers should be, & he is still my first choice. However, Charlie is on record as being adamantly opposed to even giving him a chance, so that ain't gonna happen. I fear Lidge will be the closer, come hell or high water.

[Old Phan]

Good thing is that none of those injuries are serious (Park is a question mark)

[Jack]

G-Town Dave: I just find it odd to think that a guy who hasn't really pitched since May, is coming off major surgery, and can't seem to get into games in any relief role right now should be our closer in the postseason.

He's thrown 4.2 innings in the last 4 months. I'm surprised at how many people think that right now, he's qualified to be our closer. We've barely seen him pitch.

[Old Phan]

If the Phils are up by 5 or more runs in a game, give Myers some innings to see what he does, but he shouldn't be the closer. Not yet.

[Old Phan]

Bandbox

[G-Town Dave]

Jack: I think it's mainly because Madson has been even worse than Lidge as a closer. Regardless, none of our opinions matter. Charlie has made it patently clear that we're gonna go down in flames on the Lidgedenburg. Oh, the humanity ...

[J. Weitzel]

Durbin would classify as "on the bubble" for me in terms of the playoff roster. I'd have a hard time taking Durbin over Moyer's experience to be honest.

[SmokyJoe]

At this point, I'd rest Utley & Howard for the rest of the game, and use the scrubs in the BP.

[mm]

Smokey: Agreed. We can afford to lose one. Might as well get some guys some rest.

[HOLYMACKREL]

Durbin is so effective - he matched pedro's # of runs and only giving up 1 hit...

[G-Town Dave]

JW & SmokyJoe: Agreed on all counts.

[Old Phan]

G-Town, you think the Phils are going down in flames? Just like last year?

And I would take Moyer over Durbin for the playoffs without a second thought.

[Jack]

G-Town Dave: Yes, Madson has struggled in his first few chances as a closer. But he's also been a damn good reliever the last two years overall, one of the best in baseball frankly. Which I think qualifies him way more than Myers to be the closer right now.

[SmokyJoe]

And I wouldn't terribly mind if the game got rain shortened. Lose the battle, win the war.

[HOLYMACKREL]

DITTO - on taking utley and howard out

let's unleash the potential of the gnome & tracy

[mm]

Then again, if we actually comeback and win this game, that has to screw with the braves heads pretty badly for a couple of days.

[Jack]

Drama in this game now centers on whether the Braves will hit one of our guys, in retaliation for Escobar, and in light of Howard's beaning yesterday. I doubt it, because it was clear Pedro wasn't throwing at Escobar intentionally, but we'll see.

[G-Town Dave]

Old Phan: I admire your confidence in Lidge, but I in no way, shape or form share it. For whatever reason (& I happen to believe it's his knee, not his head), Brad has not been the same guy this season. And by "not the same guy" I mean "he's been awful in every way". I can't imagine he'd suddenly turn things around in the postseason.

[SmokyJoe]

Looking ahead before the series started, based on the pitching matchups, this one seemed to be the most likely loss for the Phils. Hopefully the reigning Cy Young can show the probable ROY a thing or two tomorrow.

[Old Phan]

Actually, I have more confidence in Madson than I do in Lidge.

[HOLYMACKREL]

i donot think a come back is in the plans for the phils tonite.

unless it;s a comebacker to pitvher's mound

i think UC s/ use his brain. and take out some of his unhurt players..

what pitchers do we have left that are healthy?

hamels, lee, blanton..

KK, moyer,

who else?

[HOLYMACKREL]

don't count durbin... he stinks

is condrey available?

[G-Town Dave]

Jack: I agree. Madson is a very effective reliever ... when he's not closing. The numbers skew quite clearly. And I don't think it makes any sense to "fill" the 9th inning hole by opening a hole in the 8th, especially w/ Park injured.

[HOLYMACKREL]

official diagnosis for pedro

' neck stiffness'

[Jack]

G-Town Dave: Apparently we don't agree that it's enough of a sample size to judge Madson on as a closer. It seems ridiculous to me that Madson couldn't be just as effective in the 9th as he is in the 8th if you gave him some time to adjust to the role. Like, you know, the last month of the season when you have an 8 game lead.

And if you don't think you should open a hole in the 8th in order to solve the 9th, then you're saying the 9th inning isn't more important. And if that's your theory, then why bother having a real closer anyway? If the idea of a closer is that the 9th inning is more important, then saying we shouldn't solve the 9th if it creates a hole in the 8th totally invalidates that argument.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Looks like a couple good football games on tonite . . . . .

Vazquez is the real deal.

[G-Town Dave]

Jack: My theory is simple -- If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Madson has had his greatest success as a reliever as a setup man, which is to say, the 8th inning ain't broke. As for the 9th, it's clearly broke. If you want a better sample size, Myers converted 20 of 23 save opportunities in '07. I'd rather use the last month of the season w/ an 8 (soon to be 7) game lead to see if Myers is healthy enough to resume a role in which he's succeeded previously, rather than shuffle a bunch of different guys through the 8th while Madson & Lidge try to figure out how to close a game w/out giving up runs.

[G-Town Dave]

BTW, I don't consider the 8th or 9th to be more important than each other, or any other inning, for that matter. I just find it ridiculous that Charlie -- who claims to be so intent on finding specific roles for guys in order to stabilize the bullpen -- is willing to screw up the 8th AND the 9th when he could simply allow Myers & Lidge ('cause let's face it, he ain't gonna let go of that one) their shots in the 9th & keep Madson in the role to which he is both accustomed & best suited.

[SmokyJoe]

Peter Moylan has a 2.89 ERA, but he would be a terrible closer since he is 0-5 in save opportunities :)

[G-Town Dave]

Nice to see Mayberry hasn't changed any.

[SmokyJoe]

When's the last game chat that didn't get to a second page? Will it happen tonight? I know I'm done.

[G-Town Dave]

Holy Crap! It's Condrey! :-o

I was starting to think he'd died or something.

[clout]

G-Town: You don't understand why the 9th is more important than the 8th?

Interesting.

[Old Phan]

Condrey strikes out Dye-az. Didn't expect that.

[G-Town Dave]

clout: Once again, you mistake disagreement w/ a lack of understanding.

[limoguy]

Sports is supposedly a form of entertainment.

This game is proof that it doesn't always pan out as such.

[SmokyJoe]

Brian Sanches is attempting to closeout a 1 run lead for the Fish in the 9th.

[gm-carson]

This will be Pedro's 100th career loss and first as a Phillies...sh*t!

[Old Phan]

Sanches gets a lucky called strike 3 for the 1st out.

[Old Phan]

Ryno!

[Scott]

Okay, five more just to ram it up their butts.

[G-Town Dave]

The Big Man likes Atlanta. Good food. :-)

[Scott]

Yeah, I liked the fact that Pedro still only had double-digits in losses, and was somehow hoping he wouldn't get to 100. Oh well.

[Jack]

When Howard gets a chance against right-handed pitching late in games, it usually turns out well for the Phillies.

[Old Phan]

Ryno sure eats the Braves up.

[clout]

Stairs not looking so washed up, huh?

[Jack]

Please don't hit into a DP, Pedro. Please.

[Scott]

So, is that pine tar Vic is using, or...

[Old Phan]

Stairs is just saving it for the playoffs.

[GBrettfan]

Nice to see we have one pitcher back from the DL (Condrey), and that he pitched fine tonight.

I'd like to thank Ryan Howard for at least saving us the embarrassment of a shutout.

[clout]

Love to see Dobbs get a few starts to be sharp for the playoffs but there's zero chance Charlie will do that.

[GBrettfan]

Nice to see our PH'ers (Stairs and Dobbs) getting hits, too!

How sweet would a comeback be? Maybe, just maybe....

[HOLYMACKREL]

those runs that durbin gaVE up look awfully big now

[bake]

La la la, what a boring game.

[GBrettfan]

Way to go, Jimmy! Let's go, Francisco!!

[Old Phan]

Love these 9 inning games. Anything can happen.

[Scott]

Rat farts.

[HOLYMACKREL]

dam pop ups

can we dfA DURBIN?

[G-Town Dave]

Huh. Turns out Durbin is a difference maker after all.

[MG]

Made it interesting but came up a bit short. No big deal and nice to see the Phils were still interested.

It was clear that Pedro just didn't have a feel for any of his pitches tonight from the get go and unlike in some of his previous starts he didn't find it in the 2nd inning.

One thing that has become clear is that Pedro has really struggled in early in almost every one of his appearances and he would be a poor candidate for the bullpen. If he will help this team in the postseason, it will be a starter.

[Old Phan]

Pedro would be an ultra last resort coming out of the bullpen.

[Jack]

While I don't think Pedro will be used in the bullpen, I really don't think the "first inning struggles" are a valid corollary to bullpen performance at all. Starters usually pace themselves, and so the first inning tends to be where their stuff is most diminished. They're saving it.

In the bullpen, they're coming in and going 110% on every pitch from the start. The two situations are not the same, at all.

[MG]

Jack - It isn't about "saving it" as it is about being able to locate his stuff. In almost every start, Pedro has had trouble locating his pitches (especially his fastball) early on. That was the case tonight too but he just didn't hit his spots at all either in the 2nd or 3rd inning either.

[yo]

yo, new thread