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Friday, September 18, 2009


From last thread:

It was good to see Lidge wrap the game up, and not have it turn into a funhouse carnival upon his entry. I really can't fault Cholly too much thus far for trying and trying again to see if Lidge regresses to the mean and becomes a shadow of the closer he was last year.

But count me as one of those not convinced by Lidge's outing last night. He struggled to find the plate, let alone demonstrating much command; and several balls were hit pretty hard. In just one inning. I do not think there is ANY of that "lights out" confidence he engendered last year from the team, the coaches, or the fans.

Although velocity does not appear to be the problem, I'm convinced neither he nor Dubee, nor Cholly really knows what the problem is. Is it tipping the pitches, the knee, the blister, too much overthinking on the mound, issues working from the stretch? Some combination? What? It may be unknowable.

Maybe give him a couple more games to see if by some miracle he "comes around". Indeed, Hamels has seemed to ramp things up a notch, and he acknowledged that in a post game interview last night. But I think we are at the point where it is becoming more important to get everyone settled in and acclimated to their potential roles in post season than to continue to ride it out hoping Lidge can fix things that haven't been shown to be fixable for 90% of the season.

Do we really want to go into post season - enough of a roller coaster ride when everything is set in stone - with Madsen and Myers not really knowing whether they will close or set up? Cholly cannot control many factors such as Park's injury, how a given player responds on a given day, etc. But the Lidge situation and how to handle it with his team, is within his control.

As thankful I am for what Brad Lidge has done for this team I really don't see how he can be the closer going into the playoffs the way he is pitching. He clearly doesn't have command of his fastball, his sliders look good but I just think the hitter knows when they are coming. It really needs to be either Madson or Myers as the closer.

I can't understand the logic of those who would argue that Lidge should continue to pitch the 9th.

Jay, for example, argues that it is in "the Phils’ best interest to keep putting Lidge out there for the 9th" and then defends this by saying that Myers is incapible of pitching the 8th inning on the merits of one outing in which he "gave up 3 runs in 8th inning the other night". The OTHER NIGHT? Are you serious! You're putting one poor outing on equal footing with MONTHS OF FAILURE?

The same is true for those who argue that Madson is incapable of closing. He might be capable...if he were given half as much rope as has been gift wrapped for Lidge. Besides, of the two men, one has been ineffective in EVERY situation on the field. Save situation, non-save, 5 run lead, doesn't matter. Lidge has been equally poor and ineffective. Seriously, what does this man have to do to prove that he doesn't have what it takes? If we're going to give handouts to people based on past performances that cannot be replicated, we might as well go after Gagne and Livan Hernandez for 2010.

Lidge has no business wasting a spot on the post season roster, let alone serving as our closer. Enough pandering to his mental state. Too many decisions have been made in 2009 for the benefit of one man, instead of the team. Face it; of his 30 saves, maybe half of those were deserved or earned. For the rest, he "earned" the save in spite of his performance. Anyone can do that with our defense...even the RP with the worst ERA in the game.

I'd never wish for an injury, but the best thing that could have happened for the Phillies is if he, and not Park, would be forced to sit for three weeks. He has done nothing in 2009 but to distract Charlie Manual from the business of winning ballgames.

I've been very hard to Lidge this season, and rightfully so, but last night he was decent. It could have easily been a 1-2-3 inning had Vic been in CF, or as someone else mentioned a scoreless outing if Werth and Francisco not have misplayed that Dukes "triple" so poorly. When he deserves critism, but all means, heap it on him, but last night he was alright.

Lidge was fine last night. He got ahead of hitters, made them swing at junk and the only reason he let up a run is because neithier Werth or Francisco called for the ball so they almost collided.

Once again whether we like it or not come playoff time "The Madson Experiment" will be over and Lidge will be the closer.

Lidge has got to be able to stop surrendering fly balls that fielders almost collide on that turn into triples, especially with 3 run leads.

Lidge makes for a good mop-up guy, or perhaps a bat boy. That's about it.

2009 Closers

Madson 8 for 12 = 67%

Lidge is 30 for 40 = 75%

The Phillies need Lidge to be the closer and to be a good closer. All the other options talked about are not good enough. So keep running him out there.

G Dobbs start tonight at 3b? Pedro is batting .067 against hudson, Dobbs a hefty .294

I miss pennant races, any pennant race. I hope this year is an anomaly, but fear this is the new shape of baseball - the rich coastal cities have all the money and players, and have the pennants wrapped up by July.

cipper - past performance is not a big criteria for UC

Rich coastal cities like St Louis & Detroit?

Cholly won't say it, but he's pitching Lidge on the "Three Run Rule" meaning if the Phillies have a three run lead, Lidge will pitch the ninth. If the Phils have a four run or better lead, some other dodo will pitch the ninth. If the Phils have a lead of two runs or less, you'll see Madson or Myers. According to this disjointed way of thinking, Cholly used Lidge appropriately last night.

limoguy - this may come as a surprise, but someone has to win the "Central" divisions. In the new scheme, Chicago is probably the only central city that has the wherewithal to be there year after year with the NYs, LAs, Boston (& Phil?).

I think at this point, Lidge is our guy. I'd been calling for him not to be but the bottom line is this team needs a closer. I'm totally not comfortable when he goes out to the mound. I feel like I need a shot or two of Jack Daniels before he throws a pitch! But the bottom line is, he's done it before and if he is going to get hot, now is the time. I just hope it happens. There are no solid options here which is Amaro's fault for not getting a solid late inning arm at the deadline. This team has to play with what they have.

At this point we've seen enough of Lidge, Madson AND Meyers to know that none of them is a about to morph into a lock solid closer. Best shot is to trust Charlie & Dubee to use them as a committee. Whoever has the most rest, the better match-ups, better warm-up is the guy to close that night.

Limoguy, Detroit and St. Louis are coastal cities. St. Louis resides on the coast of the Mississippi River, while Detroit is located on the coast of the Detroit River. The only true coastal team is the Houston Astros, having Chris Coste on their roster.

Lake Fred: That exactly what I said yesterday. Lidge is the 3 run closer and Myers will be the 1 or 2 run closer. Madson will go back to pitching the 8th. Am I ok with that, absolutely! However, come playoff time do not be surpised to see Lidge in there Game 1 of the NLDS closing a 5-3 game.

Something for everybody in the Great Lidge Debate from last night's game:
For his defenders- he picked up a save, only allowed a run that the defense we are used to should have prevented.
For his detractors- 1 more Earned run to add to a 7+ ERA, plus he was not putting his pitches where he wanted.
For those on the fence(Carlie)- more reason to stay there.

No matter- we won , knocked the E# for the Braves down 1 and the Fish down 2.

as far as Lidge missing Ruiz' glove last night, I thought (seriously) they were using a new trick. There was talk about hitters reading Chooch's positioning and then waiting for the slider away. Think Chooch was setting up outside but fully expecting the fastball in. Or else, Lidge may just have no idea where the ball is going.

A couple weeks ago, this statement showed up on MLBTR: "Victorino is hitting a stout .299/.367/.456, but his -9.8 UZR/150 defensive rating is near the bottom of the league among centerfielders."

Anyone have any feelings about either the above statement or UZR? They both feel kind of like horseskit to me, but I haven't read enough yet to know exactly why.

SCT: Yea my feeling is it is garbage. But me not being a huge "stat head" that is typical. But according to the "UZR/150" Victorino is towards the bottom and even worse are guys the likes of Tori Hunter, Chris Young, and some guy you might know Jacoby Ellsbury.

Basically I hate the judging a player soley on stats. But any stat that you have to click the "advanced" button twice to get to, serves no merit with me.

I have been hearing that they are not using Myers because he is " sore"..not a good sign and probably precludes him from being used where we would like to see him used..The team really needs Romero to come back. With Chop and Myers not ready this could be a real issue !!!! You certainly cannot count on Condrey , Durbin Walker or any of them for the 7th and that means you are absolutely tied in to Madson and Lidge for the 8th and ninth

This is from the Inquirer this morning talking about the minors:
"The Phils might end up getting a contributor out of the Bobby Abreu trade, after all. In his first season as a pitcher, converted catcher Jesus Sánchez, 21, went 10-6 with a 3.44 ERA in 26 starts for Lakewood. Scouts are impressed by how quickly Sánchez developed a feel for pitching. He went 7-2 with 2.59 ERA in 13 starts in the second half."

I thought Clout might like this:)

Funny thing about Jesus Sanchez: I think I read that he was the guy that Gillick personally scouted and was high on as a catcher. Would be funny if he made some sort of impact as a pitcher.

The decisio to use Lidge last night with a semi-comfortable lead is a clear message that Cholly has not thrown the towel in yet. With Park gone, Romeo questionable and Myers not quite back to form, the BP is borderline. Of course it defies common sense to believe that Lidge will turn things around in time for the playoffs, but Cholly persists in rolling the dice. There is little doubt that there will be a critical moment in the playoffs when Cholly decides to bring Lidge in to save the game. All the BLers will be crapping in our pants with fear (Isn't baseball supposed to be entertainment?). Cholly will do this because: (1) Lidge isn't always ineffective, and (2) He possesses the unique ability to get strikeouts. I dread thinking about that moment. THe only way this doesn't happen is if Lidge blows another save or two between now and the playoffs. Should we be praying that he does?

MVP: Why is it necessary to save a roster spot for someone whose sole purpose is to pitch in the ultra-easy save situations? If our normal closer can close out 1 and 2-run leads, why can't he close out a 3-run lead?

Matt Maloney, the guy we traded for Kyle Lohse in 07, ended up helping the Phils after all. He beat the Marlins last night.

We have been arguing this Lidge-as-closer thing heatedly for quite a while now. I think both sides of the argument have valid points (God forbid any one side acknowledges the other). It is a difficult decision for Charlie, especially now that Chan Ho is out and Brett is experiencing soreness. The bullpen is a mess and I can't see Charlie (or any manager) not giving Lidge the opportunity to work out of his troubles (remember, the Phils have a fairly comfortable lead in the division) in order to get some semblance of an organized bullpen. Too many questions marks and holes. Not an enviable task to say the least.

BAP: I said that Lidge will close in the playoffs, but for the rest of the season he will only be used in low-pressure situations. Why is this a problem? As you can tell by Madson and Lidge's save percentages I listed above, Lidge is clearly the better choice, no?

R Bills: I see the other sides point. But I counter with 1.) Lidge's 9th inning save percentage is better. 67 % for Madson vs. 75% for Lidge 2.) If you have Madson be your closer, you have taken him out of his "natural" role as a setup guy. Now we need a new setup guy as well. So in 1 move, you upset 2 spots. Not Wise. 3.) With the way the bullpen injuries are going, you really are limited in choices at this point.

That's my point. What do you do? That's the difficult question for Cholly and Dubee. Suppose you try Madson as the closer and he fails. Now, you still don't have a closer for the playoffs and your other options have not gotten to work the 9th inning. Suppose Madson works out. Where do you put Lidge? How are the roles re-defined? Do you go closer-by-committee?

I don't know what the answer is. My point is that Charlie is in a difficult spot, and has to make a choice at some point. Regardless of the decision, I think it would be wise to make a decision soon and stick with it so the rest of the 'pen can settle in. That may be what Cholly's doing. But, I am not one to try to get in Cholly's head.

Matt Maloney? Didn't he used to jack up 3's for Penn a few years ago?

R. Billingsly makes a good point. I'd also say, in response to BAP, that if using Lidge in 3 run leads spares Madson (my choice for closer) a day's work, than I'm perfectly happy using Lidge.

R. Bills: The whole thing is forget Madson as closer. I think Charlie has seen enough and will settle Madson into the 8th inning spot, where he belongs. Don't be surprised to see Myers close tonight and Lidge close tomorrow again.

Except that every time Lidge is in the game, Madson has to warm up.

Just "in case".

No, Lidge should not be on the playoff roster. Hell, I'd go with Moyer as closer before Lidge.

Joe: Oh Joe, you are so funny. First you say Vic will win MVP before Utley, now saying Moyer over Lidge.

MVP: As you can tell by every other statistical indicator except saves (a "statistic" whose criteria were arbitrarily invented by some stat geek) Lidge cleary is NOT the better choice.

I can't even believe there are still people who think Lidge should be closer. This is borderline insane to me.

I am, like everyone, very unhappy at this year's version of Lidge, but at this point the argument begins to seem like an exercise in futility. There is no reliable closer available. Period. Lidge is questionable, Madson is questionable, Myers is not yet fully recovered. I have heard some suggest Walker, which is an interesting thought, but clearly a crapshoot. In playoff competition, I guess Moyers or Happ or even Durbin or Condrey or Romero (if he is healthy) could sometimes be an option too. In the end, there is no good choice right now. On the other hand, even though we are all reaching for the Scotch or the tranquilizers or the nitroglycerin when the score is tight and the inning is late, there are competent pitchers in the pen who have had some success even this year and I guess we have to hope the Charlie will make the right choices. I think I can live with that (but do I have another choice even if I can't?).


The first statement about Vic was serious, he very well could go cukoo-bananas one year, and win MVP.

The second is sarcasm. I think that I would be a more reliable closer than Lidge, and I haven't pitched competitively in over 10 years.

He's really that bad.

I'm already semi-resigned to losing to the Dodgers courtesy of a Lidge blown save, probably at Thome's hands. A certain symmetry.

"When Cholly decides to bring Lidge in to save the game [in the playoffs], all the BLers will be crapping in our pants with fear."

Maybe that explains Victorino's "problems" last night. He saw Lidge warming up in the bullpen.

With his new haircut, Victorino is Aang, the Last Airbender (see picture linked below), and has powers that BLers can only dream about.>Last Airbender

The "Myers as closer" people still need to realize that he's basically been buried on the pine for the last week. I'm not sure Charlie is lining him up to be our most important bullpen guy in the playoffs when he's not even using him now.

I think Ben Francisco will be MVP of the NLDS. [you know, should the Phils get there and all] Why? Because that would be awesome.

Jack: I never understood the Myers-as-closer thing either. He could be valuable in the playoffs, but not as the closer. He has shown me next to nothing since his return. Now there are reports of soreness. I think there are only two options: Lidge and Madson. It seems apparent to me, through his words and actions, that Lidge is Cholly's guy. For good or ill.

My point exactly, Jack. Myers is obviously not all the way back. Certainly can't pencil him into any crucial role until he is. Statements to the contrary are not based in reality.

It is really quiet this morning around here. There must not be anything to complain about.

A few notes:

- My "MLB: The Show '09" is now in the World Series stage. And it is the Phillies-Yankees

- Wouldn't it be good if we saw Abreu's former two teams battling for the WS ring. That would certainly be....interesting.

-Will be fun to watch the "Ultimate Team Cooler" Bobby Abreu and his team lose again in the playoffs. With Abreu it is personal. After watching that stiff play the outfield here for years.

It's difficult enough for Phillies fans to get used to having a winning team, but it's practically head exploding to deal with perfection (Lidge 2008).
The reality is the Phils don't have a reliable closer, and it's what we must deal with during the playoffs. The only thing to do at this point is not closer by committee, it's more like Cholly will close his eyes and point at someone, and that guy will close. Could be Lidge, Madson, a Fan, vendor selling cotton candy, it doesn't matter.

If the Braves sweep, they're be something to talk about. The over/under on Phillie runs scored this weekend is probably about 3.

Another thing about Myers which shouldn't be overlooked is his 2.5 HR/9 ratio.

With Abreu it is personal. After watching that stiff [Abreu] play the outfield here for years.

*sniff**sniff* I smell an Abreu debate coming on...

I'm wondering what happens if Lidge blows a playoff save?

Do you keep running him out there after that, or is finally the last straw?

Or is there no last straw?

Thoughts on UZR:

Like any "metric" it has issues that cannot be explained away. The biggest problem with the Phillies is that we have no weak defenders so perhaps Vic's "range" is less than a guy that has a Pat Burrell on either side of him. From watching his game from last year to this, if anything I think Vic is having a better defensive year. He's taking better routes to balls and he looks more comfortable out there. I simply don't buy it.

So basically, there are some major issues with the algorithm at this point.

I was at the game last night.

IMHO, the ball that Dukes hit in the 9th should have been caught, and the lack of communication in the OF was troubling - but fixable. If the normal outfield had been playing (Vic & Werth) the ball is caught.

Result: No runs given up by Lidge.

However, Lidge just looked "OK". His command was better than his bad outings, but it wasn't great.

He did, however, have great stuff. His FB hit 95 and his slider had great movement.

So, my question for the board is this:

Is Brad Lidge - the version with "so-so" command but great "stuff" good enough to close in the playoffs?

The Phillies had that once and made it to the 6th game of the WS before losing.

Also, for the Pro-Abreu people. Abreu is second to last in the MLB in RF fielding percentage at a awful .967. The only player worse is Justin Upton with a .961. Abreu is 3rd worst in the whole MLB counting all 3 outfielding positions. Soriano takes the cake with 11 errors and a .950 fielding percentage. Obviously then he is third most in Errors with 8 and only 9 assists from RF. Jason Werth has 10 assists and only 4 errors for comparision.

"My "MLB: The Show '09" is now in the World Series stage. And it is the Phillies-Yankees"

tommy, isn't it interesting that JRoll predicted that very thing at the beginning of the season.

I wonder if he has a future as a prognosticator?

AWH: I believe I am still in the minority when saying a confident, Yes.

I didn't see any "great stuff." I saw no swings and misses. Far from it - the Nats were way to eager to whack away.

I initially was hoping/expecting that we'd throw Myers into the late inning mix, but not pitching for a week says a lot.
I think trying to define one person as our playoff "closer" is where we'll get ourselves into trouble. If we have a guy like Happ in the bullpen, and he comes in in the 7th or 8th, just let him finish the game as long as he's getting guys out. Maybe the next night you go with Madson for an inning or two, and the following night go with Lidge but have Walker or Romero up and ready in case it's obvious after a batter or two that Lidge is having one of his bad nights. Really Cholly needs to just manage flexibly game by game instead of making the "he's my closer" decision before the series starts and stubbornly sticking with that choice.

awh: Well he predicted the Phillies win the division in '07, 100 wins in '08 and Phillies-Yanks World series in '09.

Maybe he does....Maybe he does...

MVP, try to make an argument that Abreu has been a detriment to the Angels.

AWH: Lidge's stuff has never been an issue. It's always been about his command. Even when he was good, Lidge's command has never really been better than so-so; he had 4.56 walks per 9 innings last year, which isn't exactly stellar. So, to answer your question, yeah, Lidge with so-so command is good enough to be our playoff closer. My question to you is: since his command has been horrific all year long, what on earth makes you think it will suddenly be so-so in the playoffs?

OK, here we go....

Greg V asked in the last thread about the magic (elimination) number.

No need for me to review the standings - anyone can look that up themselves, but here's how they stand the rest of the way:

Phillies have 17 games left - the Fish have 15 - and the Bravos have 16.

If the Phillies go 8-9 during their last 17, here's what has to happen:

The Braves have to go 15-1 to TIE.

The Fish have to go 15-0 to TIE.

IMHO, unless the Phils get swept (or close to it) in the 9 remaining games with the Bravos and Fish, there is virtually no way they don't win the division.

Even if they go 3-6 in those games (lose each series 1-2), it's still going to be almost impossible for either team to catch the boys in red pinstripes.

I dont think a flat 95 mph fastball is considered "great stuff"

Kyle Farnsworth had a flat 100 mph fastball and it got routinely crushed for years. Is Kyle still on KC? He would have been much better served to lose velocity and have movement.

I thought Lidge did a good enough job last night but it WAS the Nats and his track record this year has been terrible. Its gonna be a roll of the dice for UC in the postseason (assuming we make it).

The bad news is that Lidge probably needs to blow one more save -- maybe even two -- for Cholly to finally pull the plug on him as closer. The good news is that, if Cholly starts using him with 1 and 2-run leads, he will almost certainly blow one more save -- maybe even two.

In an ocean of stupidity, Greys Fan's post is an island of intelligence.

Common Sense: The reason why I would rather have Madson instead of Myers in the 8th is because he's proven that he can pitch in that role this year. If you put Madson in the 9th, you kinda have the 8th and 9th inning roles being unpredictable. If you keep Madson in the 8th, then you at least have one of the roles as pretty predictable. With that said, we'll see how Madson does with closing the rest of the year.

Klaus: Abreu has been a detriment to the Angels, and the Yankees before that, because 1. RF is the most important defensive position in baseball, so offense doesn't count there and 2. Abreu is only 6 feet tall and everyone knows managers will choose players who are 6-5 or better so they can jump above the outfield wall to steal HRs from opposing batters.

Those two facts far outweigh annual stats of 100 runs scored and 100 RBI. Forget stats. Use your EYES!

"In an ocean of stupidity, Greys Fan's post is an island of intelligence."

The only truly stupid remarks I've read are those emanating from the usual suspect. I'd compare the landscape to a marshland--solid enough, albeit with frequent pockets of mush.

Klaud: Your observation is far more nuanced, and thus more accurate, than mine was.

curt, swings and misses?

Lidge threw 16 pitches - 10 for strikes.

Three of the 10 were called strikes. The two to Willingham basically froze him.

As for the rest of the strikes, 3 were for outs - one a deep FB to CF, from a hitter who has good power(and who he wouldn't give in to), the 2nd a weak FB to center, and the 3rd a weak GB.

As for the rest - you tell me - are foul balls bad pitches that the hitter just misses, good pitches that the hitter can't handle, or something else?

As I said, Lidge was "OK", not great. Your implication that he was bad is not borne out by the result.

bap, I never said he would be "so-so" in the playoffs.

I merely asked a question based on the results I saw last night.

NEPP, you're being disnigenuous.

Cole Hamels fasball is flat also - and, by your definition, it isn't great stuff. He gets away with it because he can command it in the strikezone.

If Lidge could command his fastball better (up, down, in, out) the way Cole does, I think it would qualify.

BTW, Madson fastball is pretty flat too.

Oh, and NEPP, Farnsworth's problem is he can't locate, and doesn't change speeds well.

Let me ask you a question:

If you had your choice of 3 pitchers, one who topped out at 100, one who topped out at 95, and one who topped out at 90 -

and all of them could command their fastballs equally well -

who would you pick?

Question on "hitting the catcher's mit." Does the catcher always give a target where he expects to catch the ball, or where he needs to give it to get a certain pitch? For example, giving a middle of the plate target for the pitcher, because they know that if the pitcher uses that as an aiming point, his natural motion will break down and away. I've always wondered on this. Obviously Cooch doesn't give a target 3 feet in front of the plate for a good Lidge slider, but that's where the pitch is going to end up.

****NEPP, you're being disnigenuous.****

I believe you said "so-so" command and with a flat fastball, that ain't great stuff. Lidge has almost no movement on his fastball usually so if it isn't 97 mph, its not a plus pitch.

FB "horizontal movement"

Hamels: 3.5 in
Madson: -7.2 in
Lidge: -4.0 in

Hamels and Madson have had much much better location this year (and historically) than Lidge. Lidge often has no idea where its going and it has no movement so it gets hammered.

Yes, if Lidge could command his fastball he'd be great...he'd be the 2008 version of himself again and I'd love to see that happen.

awh, of course I'd pick the hardest throwing one. However (and Greg Maddox is the penultimate example of this), movement/control are far far more important than throwing hard. Its great to have amazing velocity and great movement/control but oftentimes you dont have both. Many guys become much better pitchers when they learn to take something off and get better movement. That is all I was saying.

awh: Well, my point was that it was sort of a silly question. If Brett Myers returns to pre-injury form, he would be an effective closer. If Ryan Madson pitches in the closer's role as he pitched in the setup role, he'll be a solid closer. If Pedro stops getting pounded in the first inning, he could be a solid closer.

Yeah, if Lidge has so-so command of his excellent stuff, he could be our playoff closer. But that analysis isn't very helpful in deciding what to do.

I thought Lidge was better but not good last night. His FB was 95, but he couldn't spot it. His slider was better, and he was throwing it for strikes. Almost left it up a couple of times, but not quite. The pitch before Duke's "triple" should have been a called strike, which is probably why he grooved the next FB. Would have liked to have seen better control of the FB, and the slider down in the dirt more.

They were taking hacks, but mostly hitting foul balls.

I can't believe I made the front page. I thought that was reserved for the BL heavyweights.

"but it WAS the Nats"

NEPP, for an otherwise intelligent poster, that statement in the context you made it was a little silly.

Yes, the Nats stink.

But, it's not because they can't score runs. They have 3 guys with 20+ HR and are above league average in RPG (albeit slightly), and a higher OBP than your Phillies.

My point is that they stink because they have no pitching - they're last IN MLB (worse than the Orioles who play with the DH) in runs allowed (by a WIDE margin) - not becuase their lineup is anemic.

Something of concern:

Ryan Howard's last 19 games:

.254 avg, .346 obp, .388 slg with just 1 HR.

I hope he cycles back to his monstrous power phase just in time for the NLDS.

awh, the statement was made in that they were mailing it in as a 50 win franchise...not that the Nats offense has been terrible. They're not playing for much of anything and we've owned them this year regardless of their fairly decent lineup. I think a similar (run totals) offense on a playoff contender would have been pushing us a bit harder this series than they did is all.

Besides which, the Nats are an amazing 21st overall(9th in NL) in Runs Scored this year....bottom 3rd of the majors.

NEPP, I agree with what you posted except:

Last night was Lidge's first work in the series, and a lot of their young guys are playing for jobs next season, particularly the last two guys he got out.

I wouldn't exactly say the guys he faced were "mailing it in".

AAMOF, there was some griping here in the last week or so about the Phillies hitters doing exactly that, no?

"2009 Closers

Madson 8 for 12 = 67%
Lidge is 30 for 40 = 75%"

While true, these numbers are completely irrelevant. There are so many other variables that this raw percentage data has no meaning whatsoever. Primary of which is the number of runs given up by Brad, particularly in save opportunities, vs the number given up by Mad Dog.


I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with that acryonym. What does it stand for?


Of course they're going to be in the bottom half. Most NL teams don't score as much as AL teams - "it's the DH, stupid". :)

The reason I used the NL to reference their offense is that it is in context with the rest of the teams that use a pitcher to hit.

The reason I used their pitching in the context of all MLB was to emphasisze how horribly bad their pitching has been.

yo, new thread.

AAMOF: "as a matter of fact".

bap, since when is posting a question "analysis" that "isn't very helpful in deciding what to do"?

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